locked
Windows 8 not going to cut it! Part 3

All replies

  • Hello all,

    I've just installed Windows 8 CP on a 6 year old workstation. Specs: AMD 2400 CPU; 2 GB DDR RAM; 20 GB HDD; 512 MB ATI video card (just to see how it works on older equipment). Once I adjusted for best performance, I started test driving this puppy. I now understand both parties arguments.

    If you are more of a tablet user or a person that just wants to have fun using this OS, you’ll really enjoy it.  No arguments here.  This OS was definately created with the "tablet"/multimedia user in mind.

    If you are going to be using it on business workstations (like me), you may wish you stuck with Windows 7 or XP.  I absolutely hate the layout and functionality.  There will have to be a lot of tweaking and customization for my network users.  I know the Start menu can be customized for people's/businesses needs, but this is not a professional business class GUI, in my opinion.

    Going from XP to Windows 7 was not a big deal for my nontechnical, older generation users.  Going to Windows 8 will be an absolute nightmare.  I am hoping Microsoft has a Professional version that will help in the matter.  If they don’t, then I’m definitely not deploying this in my network.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 12:56 AM
  • Not sure where to leave feedback for Microsoft on Windows 8. It does not seem like they are interested in customer feedback on the Customer Preview. Too bad, here I go anyhow: *** THE METRO INTERFACE IS GOD-AWFUL! *** I sure hope someone at Microsoft is reading this. I just tried out the Consumer Preview and it stinks! The Metro interface looks like Zune took over my computer. It makes Vista look good. It makes New Coke seem delicious. It makes Ubuntu look like a reasonable alternative. I will be sure to order my next laptop while I can still get it with Windows 7. How Microsoft needs to fix Windows 8: 1. Bring back the classic Start menu. 2. Allow the user to BANISH metro completely, if desired. If you claim you are about giving consumers choices, then give them the choice of legacy or Metro interface. If Metro were any good, you wouldn't have to jam it down the throats of the unsuspecting public - they would choose it. 3. Don't require the user to sign in with a Windows Live account. Screw you and your trackware. I have rooted my Android for lesser offenses. If I wanted to be tracked and marketed to, I would buy an iPad instead of a PC.
    • Edited by CT324 Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:37 AM
    Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:36 AM
  • Not sure where to leave feedback for Microsoft on Windows 8. It does not seem like they are interested in customer feedback on the Customer Preview. Too bad, here I go anyhow: *** THE METRO INTERFACE IS GOD-AWFUL! *** I sure hope someone at Microsoft is reading this. I just tried out the Consumer Preview and it stinks! The Metro interface looks like Zune took over my computer. It makes Vista look good. It makes New Coke seem delicious. It makes Ubuntu look like a reasonable alternative. I will be sure to order my next laptop while I can still get it with Windows 7. How Microsoft needs to fix Windows 8: 1. Bring back the classic Start menu. 2. Allow the user to BANISH metro completely, if desired. If you claim you are about giving consumers choices, then give them the choice of legacy or Metro interface. If Metro were any good, you wouldn't have to jam it down the throats of the unsuspecting public - they would choose it. 3. Don't require the user to sign in with a Windows Live account. Screw you and your trackware. I have rooted my Android for lesser offenses. If I wanted to be tracked and marketed to, I would buy an iPad instead of a PC.

    I would not bother to send any input to Microsoft.  Microsoft already knows everything you are posting here.  It is well known that the incorporation of Metro/WinRT reduces the desktop functionality.  As I posted in the previous thread, Microsoft is quite willing to have more limited desktop capability in order to achieve the following

    (a) condition users to the Metro/WinRT

    (b) Give to developers a huge installed base of Metro/WinRT.  Microsoft needs developers to write for WinRT with gusto because it needs to have at least 200,000 applications to succeed.  Because the installed base is too small, Microsoft needs to convert every desktop it can find into a tablet (the tablefication of PCs).  Assuming that OEMs will ship about 150 million computers, Microsoft may be able to deliver to developers a much larger installed base than that of the iPad.  Thus, they cannot allow users to incapacitate or banish Metro.  Do not forget that Metro is just the UI.  Under it, is WinRT.  Microsoft wants to shift all developer to WinRT and banish, as soon as possible, Win32.

    Thus, I would not bother.  And you cannot stay with Win7 for ever, because it is now an orphaned OS.  If most new programs are coded for WinRT, they are not going to run in Win7.  Thus, if you do not go with Win8, you must transition to another OS sooner or later.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 4:56 AM
  • 3. Don't require the user to sign in with a Windows Live account.

    Just FYI, note what the cursor is pointing to here:

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 5:41 AM
  • Only problem: I do not want to be conditioned to anything. I have my working style and "conditioned" th OS to fit my style. It comes down to choice: If have the choice to configure the OS to whatever way fits best, fine, if not, there is always an alternative choice.

    I have been running  W8 on my Dell Duo, I like the metro UI in tablet mode, but there are (for me) important things missing (not status bar visible all the time showing date/time, network state, messages arrived etc.). Small things but important to me.

    I have installed metro on my Dell desktop with my 26" screen. No way for to work with metro on this.

    Having the choice to adapt the UI to my working style and my PC or tablet, fine. If not, there will be alternatives.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:20 PM
  • Thanks for the tip in previous thread, it's locked now.

    SD


    • Edited by SD-J547 Sunday, March 25, 2012 4:35 PM
    Sunday, March 25, 2012 4:35 PM
  • (a) condition users to the Metro/WinRT

    (b) Give to developers a huge installed base of Metro/WinRT.  Microsoft needs developers to write for WinRT with gusto because it needs to have at least 200,000 applications to succeed.  Because the installed base is too small, Microsoft needs to convert every desktop it can find into a tablet (the tablefication of PCs).  Assuming that OEMs will ship about 150 million computers, Microsoft may be able to deliver to developers a much larger installed base than that of the iPad.  Thus, they cannot allow users to incapacitate or banish Metro.  Do not forget that Metro is just the UI.  Under it, is WinRT.  Microsoft wants to shift all developer to WinRT and banish, as soon as possible, Win32.

    This reminds me of when Dell started offering Win-XP as preload on the sales end because of how crappy MS Vista was. Microsoft may be able to bully the OEM's into pre-loading this OS, but in the end if there is enough uproar from the end-user due to what's being discussed here the OS will be a MASSIVEFAIL..

    SD

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 4:48 PM
  • This reminds me of when Dell started offering Win-XP as preload on the sales end because of how crappy MS Vista was. Microsoft may be able to bully the OEM's into pre-loading this OS, but in the end if there is enough uproar from the end-user due to what's being discussed here the OS will be a MASSIVEFAIL..

    SD

    At the end, the only thing that would compel Microsoft to change directions would be a massive fail.  However, I do not believe that it would happen.  Win8 would be a marginal failure/success, the way Vista was.  Do not forget, that although Vista never gained any more than a 20% penetration, Microsoft still managed to sell hundreds of millions of licenses.  Those that did not buy Vista, bought WinXP.  At the end, all the money went to Microsoft.

    However, in this case you cannot really "downgrade" to Win7.  You can, but if programmers start coding for Metro/WinRT, you are stuck with an orphaned OS.  For example, Firefox would be coming out with a Metro/RT version.  This browser may continue developing versions for the desktop/Win32 but this is not a sure bet.  Eventually, depending how the flow goes, programmers would just abandon Win32.  When that happens, Win7 would be going the way of the dodo.  And it may happen sooner than you think.

    If MS manages to convince most developers to start developing for WinRT, within a couple of years you would see no more updates for desktop/Win32 programs.  So, my guess is that Win7 would be viable for a couple of more years, no more.  After that, you would either have to adapt to whatever Microsoft is dishing out, or you would have to think of transitioning to a new OS.  It is as simple as that.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 6:01 PM
  • Windows 7 (and previous versions) gets "orphaned" under two circumstances only: a) Further development of Windows 8 shows a way to launch "desktop applications" via WinRT API's, with no other limits than being unable to use Metro-specific features (like app-app interactions). b) WinRT gets extensions that enable developers to upgrade productivity software (and desktop apps are that) to run in the new environment, with all their "legacy" benefits (for instance, windowing). I'm not imaginative enough to believe that Microsoft would abandon its huge dominance in the enterprise market just to conquer new customers looking for kewl new devices with kewl playstation-like apps. ZDNET has a nice photo gallery with "top productivity apps for the iPad3" (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/mobile-news/top-productivity-apps-for-the-ipad-3-gallery/7226?tag=mantle_skin;content) - if that's the future of business, I'm dying of laughter. Not all people working with computers are salespersons with heavy "mobile" and casual gaming or "app exploring" needs. So I prefer seeing the "consumer preview" as such and waiting for the "professional" offers to come.

    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 8:51 PM
  • Windows 7 (and previous versions) gets "orphaned" under two circumstances only: a) Further development of Windows 8 shows a way to launch "desktop applications" via WinRT API's, with no other limits than being unable to use Metro-specific features (like app-app interactions). b) WinRT gets extensions that enable developers to upgrade productivity software (and desktop apps are that) to run in the new environment, with all their "legacy" benefits (for instance, windowing). I'm not imaginative enough to believe that Microsoft would abandon its huge dominance in the enterprise market just to conquer new customers looking for kewl new devices with kewl playstation-like apps. ...... So I prefer seeing the "consumer preview" as such and waiting for the "professional" offers to come.

    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    Well, you are an optimist, this is for sure.  What Microsoft wants and what we are going to get are just too different things, aren' t they?  If developers hop on the WinRT bandwagon, then Win7 is dead and gone.   I am not saying that this is going to happen as soon as Win8 gets released.  No, it would take a couple of years, at least and it all depends how popular Win8 would become. However, if I were a developer and saw that the main desktop OS vendor jump to another runtime environment, why would (or should) continue coding for Win32?  It simply does not make sense.  If Microsoft goes around telling everybody that WinRT is it and Win32 is just legacy, shouldn't I believe it? 

    There would not be a "professional" version, not unless Win8 stumbles badly.  Despite speculation, there was not a "professional" version of WinPhone 7 either.  Microsoft simply dumped the enterprise market.  In any case, the company officially believes in the "consumerization" of IT anyway.  And the simple reason that there is not going to be a "professional" version is because that would defeat Microsoft's strategy.  If you and me go out and buy the professional version, then Microsoft would have failed.  It needs to deliver to programmers tens of millions of Win8 installations to convince them to code for Metro/WinRT.  If it fails at that, it has failed everywhere.  Ios and Android now have hundreds of thousands of applications.  How can MS convince programmers if it cannot deliver "eyeballs"?  If there is a professional version, virtually 99% of its installed base in the enterprise would buy it, leaving Microsoft with a puny consumer market.  This, in Microsoft's book, would register as a fail.

    There were those in Microsoft who argued the same points that we are arguing right now.  They simply lost and packed their office and went away.  The WinPhone leadership was devastated (as they failed to make their point of becoming the "portable OS"). 

    So, do not hold your breath for a "professional version".

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:30 PM
  • One simple thought could justify my optimism (taken from another discussion about the "post-PC era"): As long as developers use a Win32-based desktop to analyze and compile WinRT components and Metro-style apps, as long the desktop is alive. Either this work is done on Windows 7 or on the current Windows 8 desktop (which is Win32/NET based, too), and in both cases we have and keep backwards compatibility. Or WinRT reaches a point where all its advantages (speedup, more security/stability, less consumption of resources) can be transferred seamlessly from the current "tech demos" or gadget-like apps to real programs, then the "orphanization" of older Windows versions would lose much of its dread factor; perhaps we'll have a "Windows 7 mode" through virtualization, similar to today's XP mode.

    At the moment, it seems MS is going the "hybrid" path (Metro + Desktop) for the nearer future. Hear a MS moderator responding to several developers' questions on the topic: "We have received a number of inquiries in this area. The documentation will be expanding as the Windows 8 project progresses to include more API specific details. It is possible to use WinRT from Desktop applications. WinRT APIs may be tied to Metro style apps, Desktop apps or potentially available to both. The documentation will list which environments (Desktop, Metro style or both) a given API works in." (http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winappswithnativecode/thread/e65f53b4-cac9-44e3-aa10-cd7955d6a9b3)


    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    Monday, March 26, 2012 7:39 AM
  • Good to hear that WinRT will be extended into the desktop. The desktop will not die but will evolve in ways the old DOS in Windows 3.1 evolved into CMD in Windows 95. I see the desktop as the power-users's interface and Metro as the consumer interface.

    Monday, March 26, 2012 12:21 PM
  • At the end, the only thing that would compel Microsoft to change directions would be a massive fail.  However, I do not believe that it would happen.  Win8 would be a marginal failure/success, the way Vista was.

    If MS manages to convince most developers to start developing for WinRT, within a couple of years you would see no more updates for desktop/Win32 programs.  So, my guess is that Win7 would be viable for a couple of more years, no more.  After that, you would either have to adapt to whatever Microsoft is dishing out, or you would have to think of transitioning to a new OS.  It is as simple as that.

    I really think Microsoft has missed the boat on this version of Windows. Perhaps by the time Win-9 gets released they will have corrected the issues that systems professionals and more savvy desktop users are seeing. I personally abhor this full screen Metro interface, unless they address these concerns I will take a pass.

    I understand the logic of new programming tools to move forward, but they really need to make it work for the way people use computers. I have said previously that I feel that this interface seems workable in a viewer based system (Tablets) but is really bad for a productivity based platform (PC's).

    Wakey Wakey!! Ballmer..

    http://www.techradar.com/news/computing/metro-drives-magic-across-all-our-experiences-1053265

    "MAGIC" I Think Not!!

    SD


    • Edited by SD-J547 Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:27 PM
    Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:24 PM
  • Oh goody, a tutorial. when can I place my pre-order :slight sarcasm:

    http://www.neowin.net/news/report-microsoft-wont-add-start-button-for-windows-8

    SD

    Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:59 AM
  • SD-J547:

    My thoughts exactly.  Only make it heaping loads of sarcasm.

    The trouble is, exactly nothing was improved by removing the Start Menu, what we are witnessing is complete unabridged arrogance.

    Rumor has it that there was a large contingent of Microsoft staffers that advised against removing this core functionality, and in response were invited to leave the company or "repurposed" within the organization.  I say that timidly because I don't know this to be fact, my only reference is having read it here and elsewhere.

    Easy enough to believe however, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine the removal of core functionality, with no hint of "a better way" offered in exchanged, is downright childish.  So my question becomes, is this blowback directed solidly at these former internal "nay-sayers", or is Sinofski et al actively targeting end users with this pompous stance? 

    I'm reasonably quick on the uptake, and having toyed around with the far from seamless interface between toy and productivity oriented OS's, none of the "ways around" the loss of the start menu represent anything even close to an improvement, in fact its flat out irritating.  What used to be a fluid course of action that could be accomplished without even thinking about it now becomes a chore.

    Not only is the desktop broken, but even Metro users have to pay the price by having to use the OSK to search for items.  It would seem to me the start menu would have been improved, not destroyed.

    As we now know, the start menu is not coming back.  I know this to be the single most concrete example of project management buffoonery in modern history, MS will be paying the price for Sinofski's arrogance. 

    I wonder not "if" but how MUCH Apple stock Sinofski holds.

    DAS

    Tuesday, April 03, 2012 10:51 AM
  • SD-J547:

    My thoughts exactly.  Only make it heaping loads of sarcasm.

    The trouble is, exactly nothing was improved by removing the Start Menu, what we are witnessing is complete unabridged arrogance.

    Rumor has it that there was a large contingent of Microsoft staffers that advised against removing this core functionality, and in response were invited to leave the company or "repurposed" within the organization.  I say that timidly because I don't know this to be fact, my only reference is having read it here and elsewhere.

    Easy enough to believe however, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine the removal of core functionality, with no hint of "a better way" offered in exchanged, is downright childish.  So my question becomes, is this blowback directed solidly at these former internal "nay-sayers", or is Sinofski et al actively targeting end users with this pompous stance? 

    I'm reasonably quick on the uptake, and having toyed around with the far from seamless interface between toy and productivity oriented OS's, none of the "ways around" the loss of the start menu represent anything even close to an improvement, in fact its flat out irritating.  What used to be a fluid course of action that could be accomplished without even thinking about it now becomes a chore.

    Not only is the desktop broken, but even Metro users have to pay the price by having to use the OSK to search for items.  It would seem to me the start menu would have been improved, not destroyed.

    As we now know, the start menu is not coming back.  I know this to be the single most concrete example of project management buffoonery in modern history, MS will be paying the price for Sinofski's arrogance. 

    I wonder not "if" but how MUCH Apple stock Sinofski holds.

    DAS

    I've always been a PC guy, but with MotleyFool projecting that Apple stocks could hit $1000/share they are rocking. Not saying I'd switch to a Mac cause the markup on components is ludicrous, but a stupid move like this definitely leaves the door open for various Linux versions. It seems counter-intuitive to me for any company to lose touch with what the users want. In my opinion this is what happens when EGO's become more important then common sense. I've seen it within the company I work at, the real thinkers and contributors are displaced simply because they don't agree with asinine upper management ideas.

    It really beats the hell out of me how MS could take the best O/S they have ever created W7, and in one swell swoop bring it down from a workable interface to something resembling a pre-kindergarten interface.

    Microsoft - Late to the web!

    Microsoft - Late to the cloud!

    Microsoft - Fire all the visionaries!

    All in the name of ego. Don't really see Ballmer as visionary.

    http://articles.businessinsider.com/2009-10-21/tech/30029340_1_iphone-internet-mac-folks

    SD

    Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:09 PM
  • This quote/article pretty well sums it up.

    "Well it's anything but intuitive, I'll tell you that. There's nothing intuitive about this," says dad. At seven minutes: "I give up. You guys win... I don't know what else you can do." At 13 minutes he says, "I'll stay with Windows XP. I'm too old and life is too short."

    http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/windows-8-fails-the-dad-test-188540

    SD

    Tuesday, April 03, 2012 4:11 PM
  • I really think Microsoft has missed the boat on this version of Windows.

    What you're not coming to grips with is that Microsoft can buy a small country and populate it with boat builders.  They could take such a hit that virtually any other company (and most states) would crash and burn, and just go "oh well, here's Windows 9 with all that stuff fixed; sorry".  Such are the spoils of Windows 7's success.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, April 03, 2012 10:08 PM
  • I really think Microsoft has missed the boat on this version of Windows.

    What you're not coming to grips with is that Microsoft can buy a small country and populate it with boat builders.  They could take such a hit that virtually any other company (and most states) would crash and burn, and just go "oh well, here's Windows 9 with all that stuff fixed; sorry".  Such are the spoils of Windows 7's success.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    It's not got much to do with "coming to grips" as it is about user experience and fixing something that's not broken. I like a lot of the changes but simply can not see Metro as anything but a waste of productivity for the majority of us. Empires can fall, lets look at Apple under Jobs vs Jobs not being at the helm as a glaring example of that. Maybe if they build enough boats they can all go Microsurfin in shark infested waters :)-

    SD

    Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:04 AM
  • I can imagine the discussion at Microsoft when coming up with Windows 8, - Hmmmm people like tablets, I know, let's make our next OS GUI more tablet-like!!!!!!! What an idea!!!! That way people only have to learn one GUI. Genius!!!!

    Really.

    Touch screen functionality...really. C'mon guys. Even if I'd ever use a touch screen I'd be cleaning the greasy fingerprints off of it when reading documents.

    I also read somewhere that you can't have more the 2 apps visable at once, and that to close an app you have to open a menu, pick the open app and close it from there. No more windowed mode. Really. Wow.

    By all means, improve things like task manager (which is great now). By all means, make the OS better behind the scenes. By all means, don't try to force me into a tablet interface. I've been a Microsoft user and advocate since DOS, but I have to agree with the posts that I've read that say that there's no way that businesses will use this GUI.

    I know that lots of users don't know the difference between a file and a shortcut, or a folder and a file, etc. etc. and they might want an alternative to the Windows 7 start menu, GUI, etc., but couldn't you make a professional version that builds on the Win 7 GUI, maybe call it "Windows 8 Professional" and another version for people who like everything being based on this Metro crap called "Windows 8 Social-Media-is-really-important-to-me-and-I-wish-Windows-was-more-like-my-phone-tablet-XBox"?

    I really hope that I'm way off base here. I also hope that someone out there will prove it to me.

    Wednesday, April 04, 2012 5:25 AM
  • I can imagine the discussion at Microsoft when coming up with Windows 8, - Hmmmm people like tablets, I know, let's make our next OS GUI more tablet-like!!!!!!! What an idea!!!! That way people only have to learn one GUI. Genius!!!!

    Really.

    Touch screen functionality...really. C'mon guys. Even if I'd ever use a touch screen I'd be cleaning the greasy fingerprints off of it when reading documents.

    I also read somewhere that you can't have more the 2 apps visable at once, and that to close an app you have to open a menu, pick the open app and close it from there. No more windowed mode. Really. Wow.

    By all means, improve things like task manager (which is great now). By all means, make the OS better behind the scenes. By all means, don't try to force me into a tablet interface. I've been a Microsoft user and advocate since DOS, but I have to agree with the posts that I've read that say that there's no way that businesses will use this GUI.

    I know that lots of users don't know the difference between a file and a shortcut, or a folder and a file, etc. etc. and they might want an alternative to the Windows 7 start menu, GUI, etc., but couldn't you make a professional version that builds on the Win 7 GUI, maybe call it "Windows 8 Professional" and another version for people who like everything being based on this Metro crap called "Windows 8 Social-Media-is-really-important-to-me-and-I-wish-Windows-was-more-like-my-phone-tablet-XBox"?

    I really hope that I'm way off base here. I also hope that someone out there will prove it to me.

    You are missing the point.  Microsoft can easily modify the aspects that disturb users.  It would simply not do so because of marketing reasons.  Microsoft would be elated if you buy Win8 and essentially "tableticize" your desktop.  This is the direction we are going towards.
    Thursday, April 05, 2012 11:52 PM
  • One thing is for sure: As a desktop view or UI is maintained in Windows 8 - only treated as secondary -, the integration of a Windows 7 like or improved start menu would indeed be an easy task. The obvious consequence would be to shift the "operation center" for the system from Metro back to the desktop, if only for those needing the desktop interface (with multiple windows, etc.). That seems to be unwanted by MS and the current "pushing Metro" strategy.

    An underlying wish to "tableticize" the desktop may exist but the idea is too strange to be serious. There are enough works that benefit from a tablet more than from a desktop/laptop (emergency or health care people, as one example), and there are works that will never benefit from a tablet because the interface is inept for them (writers or developers, as another example). Each group should be able to choose the UI they need and customize it as they find it convenient. If anyone needs the "best of two worlds" because the main part of his job consists in switching between a multitude of devices, so be it. Even this minority could be served.


    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    Friday, April 06, 2012 9:22 AM
  • One thing is for sure: As a desktop view or UI is maintained in Windows 8 - only treated as secondary -, the integration of a Windows 7 like or improved start menu would indeed be an easy task. The obvious consequence would be to shift the "operation center" for the system from Metro back to the desktop, if only for those needing the desktop interface (with multiple windows, etc.). That seems to be unwanted by MS and the current "pushing Metro" strategy.

    An underlying wish to "tableticize" the desktop may exist but the idea is too strange to be serious. There are enough works that benefit from a tablet more than from a desktop/laptop (emergency or health care people, as one example), and there are works that will never benefit from a tablet because the interface is inept for them (writers or developers, as another example). Each group should be able to choose the UI they need and customize it as they find it convenient. If anyone needs the "best of two worlds" because the main part of his job consists in switching between a multitude of devices, so be it. Even this minority could be served.


    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    I agree with you that, at best, each group of users will choose an interface that best suits their tasks.  If it were only that simple! The reason that Microsoft wants the touch interface to be the primary one even in the desktop is not because of any deep thoughts on usability but it is the only way of creating a "portable OS ecosystem" very quickly.  Microsoft does not have any noticeable market share in portable OS.  Thus, the only way for it to create enough users so that developers start coding for Metro/WinRT is to convert desktop users to tablet users.  This may appear too cynical but this would not be the first time that Microsoft is trying to translate its dominance in the desktop to something else.  

    Users are force to go through the Metro interface so that Microsoft can peddle to them "Metro/WinRT" apps and to condition them to use their tablets and smartphones.  It is as simple as that.  All else is just words

    Friday, April 06, 2012 2:49 PM
  • Some good suggestions to make Metro more advanced user friendly..

    http://www.osnews.com/story/26032/Metro_s_desktop_issues_and_how_to_fix_them

    SD

    Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:38 PM
  • Honestly, it seems SO completely compatible with the old stuff that one could be forgiven for thinking they've actually done very little under the covers, with most of the effort being on the window dressing...

    Not that this is a BAD thing...  The Windows 7 kernel is excellent.  Seems appropriate to build on it, taking some time to tweak and tune a bit, but without adding a whole bunch of stuff that turns it on its ear.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Sunday, June 03, 2012 11:57 PM
  • The Metro interface is, in my opinion a complete disaster. I've been using the release preview on a spare pc for some weeks (on and off)

    If the current bunch of Metro apps is anything to go by, Microsoft will be in deep trouble. They really are dreadfully poor.

    Metro apps that use sound crash if no audio device present. No errors are given because there isn't a mechanism to report errors in Metro. They just disappear... Microsoft's answer was 'users didn't understand our error messages anyway'!

    I'm really looking forward to the Windows 8 launch and the backlash that occurs when the public start getting into trouble, because they can't do what they did before.

    Apple must be laughing so hard at Windows 8, it must hurt.

    Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:15 AM
  • Microsoft is as open as it gets, free development tools etc.

    Heh, clearly someone who hasn't bought a higher-end variant of Visual Studio.  ;)

    But I agree, the development tools available in a broader sense are pretty rich.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, July 08, 2012 1:25 AM
  • Lets see, the SKU of Visual Studio I use is about $20,000 annually. The Express edition is free.

    Then my server disk costs some $5,000 so that is a tad more than the Windows disks I offer on my web sites.

    Hardware is chump change compared to software costs.

    It took me months to develop my appwiz tool so I could so better IT work. It copies a list of installed programs, updates etc. to the clipboard.

    I used Visual Studio Ultimate ($20,000 version) to build it and it works perfectly as expected. Appwiz is free but under a restrictive license, that blocks rivals from using it.


    Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

    Sunday, July 08, 2012 1:52 AM
  • Well, then, I must have misinterpreted your comment about "free development tools" then.  :)

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, July 08, 2012 1:54 AM
  • Express editions for VS 2012 will be released with the commercial variants very soon to coincide with the released of Server 8 and Windows 8.

    Before I got the high-end SKU I used the Express version and the Windows SDK. That is all free and its a way for cash strapped developers to get a product done and shipped.

    Rich shops like Adobe have lots of licenses for Visual Studio as do the big game companies. Game companies also need 3D Studio which is about $3,500 a seat.

    Expression Studio 4 is some $500 or so, which is a lot cheaper than Adobe's disks.


    Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews


    Regarding Expression Studio 4, yes, Microsoft has had a pricing advantage.  However, it seems to me to have decided to kill this development tool as it has not received any updates for 2 years and there is no new version in development that I can see. 
    Sunday, July 08, 2012 3:43 AM
  • Regarding Expression Studio 4, yes, Microsoft has had a pricing advantage.  However, it seems to me to have decided to kill this development tool as it has not received any updates for 2 years and there is no new version in development that I can see. 

    Yeah, they're killing their development tools along with Win32 and advanced computing.  You know it's trouble when you see things like "seems to me" and "that I can see" from ADRz.

    It's a suite of tools the main component being Blend which is now integrated into the new version of Visual Studio, including the Express version.

    Sunday, July 08, 2012 8:13 PM
  • Vegan, you missed the sarcasm.  I was pointing out ADRz's continuing ignorance.
    Sunday, July 08, 2012 8:41 PM
  • Regarding Expression Studio 4, yes, Microsoft has had a pricing advantage.  However, it seems to me to have decided to kill this development tool as it has not received any updates for 2 years and there is no new version in development that I can see. 

    Yeah, they're killing their development tools along with Win32 and advanced computing.  You know it's trouble when you see things like "seems to me" and "that I can see" from ADRz.

    It's a suite of tools the main component being Blend which is now integrated into the new version of Visual Studio, including the Express version.


    Expression Studio 4 is a web design development tool (the Microsoft answer to Adobe's Dreamweaver, for example) although it seems to be utilizing technologies that Microsoft is now walking away from.  In any case, it is not equivalent to Visual Studio.  And although I know that Microsoft is working on an update to Visual Studio, I have not seen any effort to further development the Expression Studio (if there is, there has been no publicly announced beta for a long period of time).  The latest version of Expression was released in 2010 and there have been a couple of patches since then without any discussion of a further update.  You seem to be confusing Expression with Visual Studio.   
    Monday, July 09, 2012 3:36 AM
  • When you say Expression Studio I would assume the suite of tools of which Blend is a part of.  Based on your previous outlandish comments(in general) I was assuming you were trying to say they were walking away from everything including Blend.  I overreacted.

    Monday, July 09, 2012 4:03 AM
  • "Honestly, it seems SO completely compatible with the old stuff that one could be forgiven for thinking they've actually done very little under the covers, with most of the effort being on the window dressing...

    Not that this is a BAD thing...  The Windows 7 kernel is excellent.  Seems appropriate to build on it, taking some time to tweak and tune a bit, but without adding a whole bunch of stuff that turns it on its ear"  --

    I fully support that. But, referring to this and previous subscribers, until we see the RTM and subsequent "improvements",, we cannot jump to the conclusion that the desktop has gone. There is far to much emphasis on the new Metro screen. So far, the desktop is still very much alive. Use of the latest release of "Classic" takes you straight there, and you are back in familiar surroundings.
    I am not, so far, regarding the metro "interface" as a desktop. If it were so, then why, after using an app, are we returned to the more familiar desktop, and not to the Metro screen?
    Very few users actually have a regular need for the mass of applications which were in the old menu, particularly when accompanied by the usual third party applications. I, so far, am regarding the metro screen as a graphical start menu. If you remove those items which are rarely used (they are still available, instantly, - "All Apps"). you have a reasonable, uncluttered, graphical start menu. You even have your start button, but now hidden, should you be returned to the desktop - swish, bottom left corner.
    Metro, I agree, in its present form, is not the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. But, hopefully, this is one of the areas of self customisation which MS will improve before the next release.
    For reasons connected to my work mode, and multi tasking, I am not comfortable so far, using pure Metro applications which go full screen. This also, is not a problem. There are plenty of suitable standard alternatives to the items, so far, which are in the Metro "Store".
    But, going back to my earlier remarks, for Metro to be a true new desktop, a user must be returned there, surely, after using an app.
    I see a huge percentage of posters on forums, who offer up incredibly cluttered desktops, or taskbars. Perhaps I have the wrong perspective on this, but how can this possible be an advantage to the straight and direct use of the Metro screen, albeit to use their third party apps.? (Except, of course, for those with that taste, it is no longer possible to have those beautiful picture desktops as a background?)  Existing OSs depend very much on the use of such third part apps, to support them (even Linux). I cannot see Microsoft creating a system where these apps will no longer be available.                                                                            


    David Clarke


    • Edited by davehc1MVP Monday, July 09, 2012 1:49 PM
    Monday, July 09, 2012 1:49 PM
  • When you say Expression Studio I would assume the suite of tools of which Blend is a part of.  Based on your previous outlandish comments(in general) I was assuming you were trying to say they were walking away from everything including Blend.  I overreacted.

    Apparently, but it happens to all.  Yes, Blend is Part of Expression Studio 4.0 Ultimate.  I simply do not understand why would Microsoft walk away from Expression, but it could be that it plans to concede this business to Abode or others.  It may no longer be an area of interest for Microsoft.
    Monday, July 09, 2012 3:20 PM
  • I believe that Expression Studio is on the back burner simply as all the developers are currently working on Windows 8 .

    The program works OK for me, crashes occasionally but that has been reported. Unfortunately the symbols are not available to better identify the problem with the debugger.

    I suspect somebody forgot to use the try (expression) catch (deal with the problem) type of coding technique.


    Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

    If this is happening, it would be peculiar because the development of Win8 has not interrupted the development of other applications including Visual Studio, Office 15, etc, etc.  I think Expression is a unique case because Microsoft is shifting its position on supported standards.
    Monday, July 09, 2012 10:15 PM
  • With all the threads read here, some are on topic and some not. 

    Thats life, I installed and played around with win 8 a day or so, Like some of it and other stuff is just not for me. I did manage to dual boot with win xp on the first try, and The only driver I had really did not have to install was my on-board video. I installed it from nzone , I went to the store and got the free iHart radio app, only problem with it was you can't suf the web and play it at the same time. I'm sure you can, but I could not find it. I pushed my ram of 2 gig to the limit as always with a online game on facebook called Castleville. The OS just locked up and the OS did not recover from the abuse. I restarted the computer in XP just to see if it could be done, only took two try's; I forgot I had the install  DVD still in, poped that out and right to the XP.

    As I poked in the Windows dir of the Win 8 OS.

    I found some of my old friends in there. It seams the windows team still needs exe2bin and edlin and edit to run the newest windows out today. As a beta tester fro the windows 7 , I told them then and I give up telling them the OS is bloated with unnecessary  and unsecured applications. 

    Just my opinion.

    Monday, July 09, 2012 11:32 PM
  • See the Express link on the Visual Studio 2012 RC downloads page, then see Express for Windows 8.

    I saw no Expression Studio or Expression Web.  But I did see Express 2012 RC for Web.

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:53 AM
  • See the Express link on the Visual Studio 2012 RC downloads page, then see Express for Windows 8.

    I saw no Expression Studio or Expression Web.  But I did see Express 2012 RC for Web.

    Yes, these are new versions of existing packages.  As I said, the main web design tool that Microsoft championed for years (Expression), has not seen a new version or substantive development since 2010.  This may be due to Microsoft's abandonment of other web technologies such as Silverlight, etc. Microsoft was supposedly going to work to improve Expression's capability to work with 3rd party tools, but I guess that this was abandoned as well.

    So, since I have been utilizing Expression since version 2.0., I now need to think carefully about moving to other solutions.  In any case, this to serve as a cautionary tale to others who do not believe that Microsoft is about to abandon technologies that matter to them.  Microsoft no longer substantially values  either compatibility or its installed base (see how quickly WinPhone 7.x users and developers were thrown under the bus..and, apparently, by design).

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:55 AM
  • In any case, this to serve as a cautionary tale to others who do not believe that ANY software company is about to abandon technologies that matter to them.

    Fixed that for you.

    Microsoft no longer substantially values  either compatibility or its installed base 

    Right!  Run for the hills!  Stuff like that NEVER happens with Google or Apple.

    Android phones that never get updates.

    iDevices you bought yesterday that don't get the latest features.

    FCPX

    Google Gears, Buzz, Wave...

    Well I don't have enough time to list everything.  It's common in the software industry to discontinue products and not exclusive to Microsoft.  Sometimes products and technologies that get pushed very hard end up getting canceled.  Or get extensive changes that not everyone likes.  Let's not forget you're speculating too.  I think you might be able to find some good tools for building websites if it does happen....that's really the point.  No company would abandon a product if it was the best selling and most profitable.  Like if Adobe dropped CS.  Or MS dropped Desktop support.  Won't happen any time soon.

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:12 PM
  • Microsoft no longer substantially values  either compatibility or its installed base 

    Right!  Run for the hills!  Stuff like that NEVER happens with Google or Apple.

    Android phones that never get updates.

    iDevices you bought yesterday that don't get the latest features.

    FCPX

    Google Gears, Buzz, Wave...

    Well I don't have enough time to list everything.  It's common in the software industry to discontinue products and not exclusive to Microsoft.  Sometimes products and technologies that get pushed very hard end up getting canceled.  Or get extensive changes that not everyone likes.  Let's not forget you're speculating too.  I think you might be able to find some good tools for building websites if it does happen....that's really the point.  No company would abandon a product if it was the best selling and most profitable.  Like if Adobe dropped CS.  Or MS dropped Desktop support.  Won't happen any time soon.

    Your arguments are totally invalid.  I am not going to answer you in an insulting manner, as you seem to prefer, but I would notice the following:

    (a) Android phones that do not get updates are not the same as an OS on which somebody invested decades in learning and accumulating applications worth tens of thousands of dollars.  Let's take for example those who invested heavily in Microsoft Office or in Adobe's Creative Suite.  If these packages eventually disappear and move to the cloud, one would have to get used to a much more expensive model of computing.  Not even you would not be excluded, Microsoft fanboy and all.  For any complex software creating rich content, you would have to pay an expensive subscription and utilize it only when and where you have internet connection.  At the same time, you would freed from the constraints of the OS (any OS giving you access to a decent browser would do).

    (b) By divorcing the OS from demanding applications and moulding it to work with portable, low-power hardware, one introduces a huge gap into the progress of computing.  For example, for a long time, the OS advanced to accommodate powerful hardware and, in turn, applications became more intricate to exploit the capabilities of the hardware that the OS now revealed.  This trend created powerful and cheap GPUs, multi-core, multi-threaded CPUs, fast buses, fast memory, etc, etc.  This powerful hardware facilitated by the OS allowed companies to build very powerful applications such as complex video and photo editing software, etc, etc.  Win8, designed to run in "barely there" hardware, forces a veritable stasis in hardware.  If it is a vehicle only for the creation of portable, non-multitasking, full-screen apps (and these are the only applications that Microsoft would be offering through its Windows Marketplace), what would be the use for anybody to buy powerful hardware?  None, really.  Without mass availability of powerful hardware, how are complex applications supposed to get further developed? 

    In a future where most carry tablets, publishers such Adobe would have to adjust drastically both their business model and their pricing.  For those buying their applications through Windows marketplace (and thaf would a huge number, running Photoshop would be impossible (never mind, being inaccessible).  Thus, such software would move to the cloud where your local hardware is of no consequence whatsoever.

    At the end, the move towards weak, portable OSes that Win8 signifies (the Win8 desktop is essentially unchanged from that of  Vista) is a disaster for those looking for powerful OSes, running in powerful computers, having access to intelligent, complex, multiwindowing, multitaksing, multithreaded applications for a reasonable priceThese computers and these OSes would still exist, but prices are going to move to the stratosphere as the mass market disappears.


    • Edited by ADRz Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:18 PM
    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:17 PM
  • "Your arguments are totally invalid.  I am not going to answer you in an insulting manner..."

    "Not even you would not be excluded, Microsoft fanboy and all."

    a) I was comparing Android to the WP 7.x comment you made.  In that case it's 100% valid.

    b) Sorry if you're insulted Chicken Little.  You can have your opinions and not like Windows 8, that's fine.  But it's clear that you're not here to provide any kind of constructive feedback.  That's a fact.

    The whole scenario you're ranting about, the end of complex computing and a shift to cloud based computing, is a general trend and not one specific to MS.  As usual you take something with a kernel of truth and exaggerate the hell out of it to bash Microsoft then go off the deep end and make comments like this...

    "Win8, designed to run in "barely there" hardware, forces a veritable stasis in hardware.  If it is a vehicle only for the creation of portable, non-multitasking, full-screen apps (and these are the only applications that Microsoft would be offering through its Windows Marketplace), what would be the use for anybody to buy powerful hardware?  None, really.  Without mass availability of powerful hardware, how are complex applications supposed to get further developed?"

    So Moore's law is dead by virtue of software(specifically MS) and not any technical limitations.  Got it.  There's plenty of free software that would fill this void should your doomsday scenario play out and it wouldn't cost you a dime.

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:33 PM
  • "Your arguments are totally invalid.  I am not going to answer you in an insulting manner..."

    "Not even you would not be excluded, Microsoft fanboy and all."

    a) I was comparing Android to the WP 7.x comment you made.  In that case it's 100% valid.

    b) Sorry if you're insulted Chicken Little.  You can have your opinions and not like Windows 8, that's fine.  But it's clear that you're not here to provide any kind of constructive feedback.  That's a fact.

    The whole scenario you're ranting about, the end of complex computing and a shift to cloud based computing, is a general trend and not one specific to MS.  As usual you take something with a kernel of truth and exaggerate the hell out of it to bash Microsoft then go off the deep end and make comments like this...

    "Win8, designed to run in "barely there" hardware, forces a veritable stasis in hardware.  If it is a vehicle only for the creation of portable, non-multitasking, full-screen apps (and these are the only applications that Microsoft would be offering through its Windows Marketplace), what would be the use for anybody to buy powerful hardware?  None, really.  Without mass availability of powerful hardware, how are complex applications supposed to get further developed?"

    So Moore's law is dead by virtue of software(specifically MS) and not any technical limitations.  Got it.  There's plenty of free software that would fill this void should your doomsday scenario play out and it wouldn't cost you a dime.

    I am not trying to insult anybody but you seem to try hard to do otherwise.  You can certainly try to keep this discussion civilized.

    (a) Your Android comparison is incorrect.  You should certainly know better.  Android is designed to be upgradable.  In fact, even the original Nexus is continuously updated by Google.  If specific phones are not upgraded by manufacturers, one can take and should take issue with these manufacturers not with the field overall.  For WP7, Microsoft knew for quite sometime (from the beginning of starting working on WP8) that the WP7 phones would never be upgradable and it did not state so to potential buyers or users.  Was MS legally fine here?  Yes, but it certainly threw its users under the bus, and this is incontestible.

    (b) Trends in computing are not storms of nature.  They are created by companies trying to make money.  If users go along, they deserve their fate.  Thus, if users go along with Microsoft, then they do deserve all that they are getting.

    My comments are very constructive.  I think that I help facilitate a discussion as to what Win8 really means on the basis of Microsoft's own statements.  You have not objected that I incorrectly cited Sinofsky stating that from now on, all development should concentrate on WinRT because this "makes sense".  I think that you are disturbed that I mention these things, although you do not object to their veracity.

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:44 PM
  • (a) There are many Android users that would take issue that there is a difference.  Let's not narrow the scope to Google produced phones after the fact.  WP7 phones will still be usable just like the original Droid is and will receive an upgrade to 7.8 FWIW.  Anyone that buys a phone should do so based on what it does out of the box not what they think it will do IF it gets an update.  There are clear examples of Android based hardware not getting updates or not being able to take advantage of features based on hardware limitations.  It's nothing new.  Nothing was promised and then taken away.  I do agree that their unwillingness to make a clear statement was frustrating but the writing should have been on the wall for prospective buyers.  You would probably be surprised that most WP7 users still like their phones.

    (b) Google is the epitome of this trend.  Phones, tablets and underpowered Chromebooks all designed to consume their content and use their services.  They'll gather your data and usage so they can monetize it for their own benefit.  Your privacy is secondary.  Hardware will be in a "veritable stasis" and it's the end of advanced computing.  I know this is excusable to you and is completely different from what MS is doing.  I'm really not that cynical about Google or Apple for that matter just pointing out how ridiculous your comments are -- "Thus, if users go along with Microsoft, then they do deserve all that they are getting."  OK.

    I don't object to your citations of Mr Sinofsky.  I object to the conclusions you draw from his statements.  It makes sense to develop WinRT apps because they will run on all platforms with little modification.  They would like this to be the case for obvious reasons, they are not a non-profit organization.  To you this means the imminent death of Win32 and the end of advanced computing.  I object to that.

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:08 PM
  • Paul's take on Windows 8.

    Good read. Seems to call it as he sees it.

    http://www.paulallen.com/TemplatePrint.aspx?contentId=21


    • Edited by SD-J547 Thursday, October 04, 2012 4:59 AM
    Thursday, October 04, 2012 4:54 AM

  • I don't object to your citations of Mr Sinofsky.  I object to the conclusions you draw from his statements.  It makes sense to develop WinRT apps because they will run on all platforms with little modification.  They would like this to be the case for obvious reasons, they are not a non-profit organization.  To you this means the imminent death of Win32 and the end of advanced computing.  I object to that.

    You can object, but you would not be on safe ground.  I do not know how imminent the death of Win32 is, I think that it would depend on what happens over the next few years.  But it was Microsoft talking to a variety of analysts discussing the eventual elimination of "legacy code".  So, where we differ is our definition of "imminent".
    Thursday, October 04, 2012 5:04 PM
  • Let us not forget that a hugely successful fruit-flavored company is doing just fine even though they have an absolutely ruthless strategy of not maintaining compatibility with much of anything older than this year's release.  Even so, it's hard to find a user who's anything but arrogantly proud of their choice in platforms.

    We have been absolutely blessed that Microsoft has in the past had the vision to keep their systems very compatible with past applications.  That hasn't come cheap, and it helped build them an empire, but I have the unfortunate feeling it will be coming less and less as they try to get fruitier.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, October 05, 2012 3:15 AM
  • Let us not forget that a hugely successful fruit-flavored company is doing just fine even though they have an absolutely ruthless strategy of not maintaining compatibility with much of anything older than this year's release.  Even so, it's hard to find a user who's anything but arrogantly proud of their choice in platforms.

    We have been absolutely blessed that Microsoft has in the past had the vision to keep their systems very compatible with past applications.  That hasn't come cheap, and it helped build them an empire, but I have the unfortunate feeling it will be coming less and less as they try to get fruitier.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Consumer items are different from computers.  Thus, Apple has not paid any price for breaking compatibility because of its number of users and the nature of applications. There is little doubt that Microsoft is envious of its success and wants to imitate many of things Apple. 
    Friday, October 05, 2012 4:44 AM
  • I wanted to point out that I found some real life issues that has caused major gaming companies like steam and some others to stop the release of their store clients on windows 8:

    1. Closed platform - windows 8 only supports certain programming languages, gui's, and limited set of features. For instance, if the professional version  firmware or operating system is wanted no longer can it be purchased via disc or load it onto the tablet via usb or SD card slot. It has to be loaded by "Microsoft professionals" much as any closed platform that follows the tablet scenario is setup and costs anyway where from $10,000-20,000 to load it for about a few hundred tablets (referencing ibms model for their new lenovo thinkpad android tablets, which was recently implemented in our school system.) if microsoft gets their way. So saving money in the tablet market hell no! This is planning for the next 2-3 years, not including the first year in which it might not be this way.

    2. Needs to provide better gui options for turning off metro, because as stated above how am I supposed to see my network status, pop-up icons from my anti-virus, or other important programs that use the traskbar if stupid metro is turned on? Huh, right? If you find the solution I want it in less then 5 steps, because I can do it in 5 steps or less now. This is important to network engineers who always need to see their network status and messages from their anti-virus.

    If anyone wants a link I will return with the online version of the game informer article on october or novembers issue. I knew steam was stopping their service for windows 8 a few months ago though, but other companies were stated in the article. For laptop and desktop windows 8 will be a fail (excluding if kinect support but ms will not receive my full support on windows 8) unless they remove metro on laptops and desktops (excluding special touch screen systems), or have option to turn it off or limit it to tablet market.

    P.S. currently testing ie on xbox with public xbox update and have tryed windows 8 internet explorer and it sucks compared to windows 7 internet explorer 8.

    I would say the internet explorer software on xbox and windows are similar in features and would hinder my ability to visit websites, because for one on windows 8 HTML video and NOT flash video is supported or not well. -10 already for microsoft because everyone uses flash on all platforms.

    Anyone pulling web design crap for windows 8, Iam taking website design this semester and my book clearly states that some features used in html 5 and css3 are not even supported in internet explorer 9 and newer web browsers when talking about css3 and html 5.

    The book was called web development and design foundations with html 5.

    After using similar features across windows phone 7, xbox 360, and windows 8 I can clearly be confident that windows 8 is no where near the capabilities a windows phone 7 or xbox can offer. A pc or laptop is different from a tablet. A tablet you break the screen its history, you void the warranty to take it apart and even a laptop I can upgrade memory or hard drive space on some models without voiding any warranties.

    Okay, for gaming industry imagine free to play going away completely and thats how gaming relates to windows 8.

    If microsoft can not convince gaming companies to buy into the metro bs why should I?

    Ask yourself that question since the biggest thing going for vista was gaming support with directx 10 and a few minor improvements, whats being offered now?


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr








    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, October 05, 2012 4:57 PM
    Friday, October 05, 2012 4:41 PM
  • Well game fanatics will want to play their old games. Iam not trying to be critical because of my unbiased nature but a realist, consumers will be critical of this problem if this is the case. Developers will not like the ability to not be able to see the status of their anti-virus (mcafee users especial and is a piece of crap blocking the good programs and letting a virus through to the computer).

    Vegan id you read above then Im talking about how this will lead to a closed platform like the xbox and windows phone and everyone hear knows it. Closed platform = More money and paying for upgrades like apple. If you want to make a bet that it will not happen then compare to apple and lenovo's closed tablet platforms before you do, because I think money will be lost in this bet after microsoft has a foothold.

    Your trying to use windows 8 and compare it to windows phone 7+8 and the new xbox update which they are completely different animals when developing apps and normal usage.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr






    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, October 05, 2012 6:23 PM
    Friday, October 05, 2012 6:16 PM
  • Mcafee enterprise is the problem. The state board for education requires that crap unless we want to go into the deep end in money on avg or norton. Windows defender in windows 7 was useless and more eye candy and I will not expect the same for windows 8.

    Windows 8 gui is really eye candy and crm programs do not count because those are probably used more by higher level management.

    I do not doubt your website is useful vegan Iam stating the facts for rest though.

    P.S. vegan get starwars battlefront to work on windows 8 and you might spark my interest (no secret virtual box, virtual pc, vmware, or other virtualization programs can be running in the background.) .  In addition, if you find a hack to turn off annoying metro without using third party tell me or a secret function that disables it permenantly. If you do this I might my better side might think that would deserve an mcc nomination (the developer preview hack does not work).

    I would not point out this fact unless I play some pc games myself (starwars fan :D).

    I have beta tested a good size of AAA and high quality games and many are pc games that rely on their own servers not microsoft initiated servers. This  The bigges concern is client programs for third party games cannot be downloaded or used on windows 8 such as steam.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr

    Friday, October 05, 2012 7:17 PM
  • Vegan, if you put in a good word to the microsoft guys for me I will share an invite to combattestings website or help me with traffic to my blog (its good experience to learn how the big boys are developing their games and requires xbox live gold on xbox as does every game in multi-player). They have tested crysis (pc, xbox 360, ps3), homefront (pc, xbox 360, ps3), newest medal of honor (pc, xbox 360, ps3).  Note: cannot write in a blog or on website about the games in testing, but can refer people to website to show them the list or a trailer thats out for the game.

    Oh, you have not checked out the kinect blog much vegan so your game development resources are a bit off. Go to http://reconstructme.net/  and try their nice software which is the best of the open source crop. It will only work on windows 7 and below since windows 8 is not supported for kinect. I planned on using it myself by making clay models of my buildings and characters used in the game and scanning them with reconstructme. Its future support plans on applying color from the real life object to the 3d model, so you do not even have to color the 3d model (which besides rigging looks hard) and having a gui to go with the program.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr




    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, October 05, 2012 7:34 PM
    Friday, October 05, 2012 7:26 PM
  • Okay I test on windows 7 64-bit at home and at work for applications i use windows 7 32-bit. So you can play the games they offer. Vegan, try out reconstructme though, its a neat time saver tool for game development. Their is also a rigging program made by akira in kinect forums called Kmotion that supports 3ds max and can rig character animations to a 3d model (the original source is rough, but someone sent me improved movement source code that does better joint movement thats translated in 3ds max). I have his KMotion somewhere, but its buried under my links somewhere.

    The kinect stuff will definitely save time in gaming industry at this rate.

    But, anyways these nice new programs are not supported in windows 8 yet.
    P.S. post email below if you want invite to combat testing. They are NDA strict so you need to make sure you do not flame anybody or post pictures of the game on your blog (I think cover art for the box would be fine but thats about it).

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr




    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, October 05, 2012 7:46 PM
    Friday, October 05, 2012 7:43 PM
  • Okay, I have a special program listed on my blog i link to called xpadder for mapping an wired xbox 360 controller to windows mouse and keyboard settings. You could use that to spark interest in your blog again if people are not visiting much.

    Iam currently testing a multi-person kinect program that emulates each independent person as a mouse. Its so I can replace or place a kinect in a room without a smart board or for teachers that wish to try something new (if it works I might have fat lazy teachers before its over and done with or excited teachers that do not have a smart board). Heres my codeplex link for nayone wanting to try it (you could get it to run on windows 8 in desktop mode, but I will give that a 50/50 chance):

    http://kinectmultipoint.codeplex.com

    Its my favorite kinect project I have been working on continually and plan on after working with mouse devices and getting them working implementing support for  emulation of smart techs smart boards (time pending).

    If anyone can program and knows sign language in the near future after getting my kinectmultipoint project done I will start on my kinectsignlanguage project which is here: kinectsignlanguage.codeplex.com

    Its just prototype code that does not do anything yet but will in the future.

    Oh, vegan I might switch to visual studio 2012 with usage on windows 7 before I decide to use windows 8 to keep from upgrading as long as I can. My windows 7 64-bit works like a charm so I have no reason to upgrade anyways (three years old). Question: would msdn subscription include windows 8 if i bought visual studio 2012? Iam trying to get a nice msdn subscription that leaves me with perpetual licenses. Someone in a general information forum on msdn that this was possible.  

    Vegan, my email is jefferycarlson@gmail.com

    Google puts most of my spam in the spam folder and deletes it after so many days.

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr



    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, October 05, 2012 8:15 PM
    Friday, October 05, 2012 8:10 PM
  • Windows 8 Pro and Enterprise works well on my PC's... with the Start8 application that I bought from Stardock.

    I did remove the entire Metro stuff as well, they are fine on my WP7, for my desktop usage they are rather useless.

    I wonder if someone can fire up several putty sessions, tftp, syslogserver, notepads and other apps from the start screen as fast as one can with the start menu and it's search field on a desktop PC with mouse, keyboard and without touchscreen?

    I can't, even tried to use metro only for a month just to throw it away again, the swapping back and forward is just as annoying as using Ubuntu's Unity.

    Heck, even OSX Mountain Lion is more user friendly out of the box against desktop users.

    And all that because of the move from start menu to start screen, which works pretty well on touch pads thou.


    Regards Joerg Baermann

    Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:07 PM
  • Windows 8 Pro and Enterprise works well on my PC's... with the Start8 application that I bought from Stardock.

    I did remove the entire Metro stuff as well, they are fine on my WP7, for my desktop usage they are rather useless.

    I wonder if someone can fire up several putty sessions, tftp, syslogserver, notepads and other apps from the start screen as fast as one can with the start menu and it's search field on a desktop PC with mouse, keyboard and without touchscreen?

    I can't, even tried to use metro only for a month just to throw it away again, the swapping back and forward is just as annoying as using Ubuntu's Unity.

    Heck, even OSX Mountain Lion is more user friendly out of the box against desktop users.

    And all that because of the move from start menu to start screen, which works pretty well on touch pads thou.


    Regards Joerg Baermann


    I agree with you regarding the desktop user-friendliness of Win8 but why all the work and additional expense in your installations of Win8 when you can stay with Win7? 
    Friday, November 16, 2012 4:49 AM
  • I wonder if windows metro was all this hip and hype and good did they drop x86 support on the tablets? (probably moving forward but sadly most people are still using 32-bit computers with windows 7 on them or just now moving to windows 7). Using metro is not very stable for server environments (windows server 2012) at all because the extra gui features cause problems. From looking at the news from multiple sources and trusted scholarly articles I can conclude that both windows server 2012 and windows 8 are not exactly providing better performance at all (windows 8 does not have power toys yet so no its not good for a gamer trying to get the most of his pc by disabling uneeded services and features ).  

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, November 16, 2012 1:58 PM
    Friday, November 16, 2012 1:48 PM
  • If you notice usually the servers use the same core gui as the desktop pc's so metro is used in some form or another on windows server 2012 unless someone figured out how to disable it. The only problem i have had with my windows 7 pc is when I leave my hard drive fragmented for sometime (only happens on rare occasions when I get busy with homework from my college).

    I wonder why microsoft did not just put in a marketplace as a windows component? Then, make programs that perform advanced/special operations be certified by microsoft and have a special program check for this certification built into windows? (similar to how device drivers must be certified except its free for a basic deal and cheap when done on multiple advanced programs or volume deals). I mean this is the ending result of metro = NO open source and more money for Microsoft when people try to put their programs on windows 8 marketplace. Then, they have to pay to have microsoft certify them (My guess is this will eliminate the Volume licensing program all together and force business customers to buy 100 copies of a program at full price) before people can use the program.   if your a developer then you know the windows phone certification process takes 1-2 weeks everytime you make an error and have to resubmit for certification. 

    For my idea, open source software can include an open source license that windows checks for and thats the free certification mentioned above and without a license that is certified by microsoft (common open source  or microsoft commerical license) for use then you cannot even install a program. That would be better then trying to force a unified gui that does nothing


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, November 16, 2012 2:34 PM
    Friday, November 16, 2012 2:28 PM
  • That would be better then trying to force a unified gui that does nothing

    There is nothing "unified" about the GUI in Windows 8.  That's precisely the problem!

    What they SHOULD have done was increase the utility of the desktop to embrace the mobile OS concepts, and provide a way to run the whole Metro/Modern environment in a window (or multiple windows), and even host the Start screen in a Window (maybe even a Start Menu replacement pop-up).  That would be a "have cake and eat it too" solution, not unlike the "Unity" style solutions made by some virtualization vendors.  Maximizing a Window would offer the "immersive" experience.  It's not like these concepts are new to Windows!

    This whole "make the desktop" secondary concept is the very basis of all this horseshit.  How could anyone in his right mind think that removing the very concept that gives the operating system its NAME was the proper approach?  Any idiot can see that you don't take a more powerful concept and dumb it down to a less powerful concept.  Typical executive thinking...  "I can't think of more than one thing at a time, so no one else can either."

    And does anyone really think that Microsoft is actually going to be able to manage their App Store properly into the future?  Really, what's the difference between this initiative and all the prior failed attempts (e.g., Windows Live Gallery or Gadget Gallery or...)?

    Now a geek needs to be put back in charge so we can expect operating systems again from Microsoft.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, November 16, 2012 4:54 PM
  • That would be better then trying to force a unified gui that does nothing

    There is nothing "unified" about the GUI in Windows 8.  That's precisely the problem!

    What they SHOULD have done was increase the utility of the desktop to embrace the mobile OS concepts, and provide a way to run the whole Metro/Modern environment in a window (or multiple windows), and even host the Start screen in a Window (maybe even a Start Menu replacement pop-up).  That would be a "have cake and eat it too" solution, not unlike the "Unity" style solutions made by some virtualization vendors.  Maximizing a Window would offer the "immersive" experience.  It's not like these concepts are new to Windows!

    This whole "make the desktop" secondary concept is the very basis of all this horseshit.  How could anyone in his right mind think that removing the very concept that gives the operating system its NAME was the proper approach?  Any idiot can see that you don't take a more powerful concept and dumb it down to a less powerful concept.  Typical executive thinking...  "I can't think of more than one thing at a time, so no one else can either."

    And does anyone really think that Microsoft is actually going to be able to manage their App Store properly into the future?  Really, what's the difference between this initiative and all the prior failed attempts (e.g., Windows Live Gallery or Gadget Gallery or...)?

    Now a geek needs to be put back in charge so we can expect operating systems again from Microsoft.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    You said some of what I said above and explained it beautifully! BTW, I agree too Microsoft is starting to step into the manure now because businesses are still relelucant to switch over to server 2012 or windows 8 or they are running both in a vm seperated in a non-production environment.

    Im learning about quality management right now in my project management class and windows 8 is far from the mark now compared to factories (I would at this point give  toyota a better chance of success then windows 8).

    I do agree with noel the approach Microsoft took was all wrong and was ass backwards. Maybe they could have changed the desktop version and made a later release date so that metro was not the new forced ui. In addition, when the desktop os is removed with metro windows should be called metro tablet instead because windows is not present anymore. 

    Noel either way you explained the concept better I just posted above. The certified certificate is for a marketplace that  the opposite of windows 8 with people starting out on the desktop and going to store which is smaller sense noels idea with security points considered.

    Also, tablets are meant for reading books, playing games, and doing less then meaningful tasks (only tasks a fifth grader could do).

    I think having a windows store installed by default in windows with a start menu available from the start of windows would help sales. 


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    • Edited by The Thinker Friday, November 16, 2012 7:38 PM
    Friday, November 16, 2012 7:23 PM
  • That would be better then trying to force a unified gui that does nothing

    There is nothing "unified" about the GUI in Windows 8.  That's precisely the problem!

    What they SHOULD have done was increase the utility of the desktop to embrace the mobile OS concepts, and provide a way to run the whole Metro/Modern environment in a window (or multiple windows), and even host the Start screen in a Window (maybe even a Start Menu replacement pop-up).  That would be a "have cake and eat it too" solution, not unlike the "Unity" style solutions made by some virtualization vendors.  Maximizing a Window would offer the "immersive" experience.  It's not like these concepts are new to Windows!

    This whole "make the desktop" secondary concept is the very basis of all this horseshit.  How could anyone in his right mind think that removing the very concept that gives the operating system its NAME was the proper approach?  Any idiot can see that you don't take a more powerful concept and dumb it down to a less powerful concept.  Typical executive thinking...  "I can't think of more than one thing at a time, so no one else can either."

    And does anyone really think that Microsoft is actually going to be able to manage their App Store properly into the future?  Really, what's the difference between this initiative and all the prior failed attempts (e.g., Windows Live Gallery or Gadget Gallery or...)?

    Now a geek needs to be put back in charge so we can expect operating systems again from Microsoft.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    I can provide reasons for the actions by Microsoft, not justifications.

    Of course, attaching a mobile OS (Metro/WinRT) was supposed to allow Microsoft to move to tablets.   It was a badly implemented foray.  The simple reason is that, even in its purest (Windows RT), not all elements of this mobile OS are "mobile".  A lot are leftovers from the desktop and simply "disturb" the experience.

    As for consigning a secondary role to the desktop, this was premised on the whole idea that the "desktop" will simply "die".  Microsoft wants Windows to evolve into an Android competitor and the sooner it does this, the better.  Maintaining some backwards compatibility "forced" Microsoft to include the "desktop mode" but this was never really part of the new OS.  It was just a concession to 1.2 billion Users and worthless at that.

    Friday, November 16, 2012 11:44 PM
  • I wonder if windows metro was all this hip and hype and good did they drop x86 support on the tablets? (probably moving forward but sadly most people are still using 32-bit computers with windows 7 on them or just now moving to windows 7). Using metro is not very stable for server environments (windows server 2012) at all because the extra gui features cause problems. From looking at the news from multiple sources and trusted scholarly articles I can conclude that both windows server 2012 and windows 8 are not exactly providing better performance at all (windows 8 does not have power toys yet so no its not good for a gamer trying to get the most of his pc by disabling uneeded services and features ).  

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    2012 runs pretty well on servers, we did some test runs and found it pretty good as a server OS, note that it doesn't have metro like Windows 8.
    There are a lot of nice features in 2012 that beat 2008 R2, not to mention 2003 which is to old and way behind.
    But we can't make a switch now, since a lot of applications don't support it yet.

    As for Windows 8 performance, I found it run way smoother than Windows 7 so far.
    As for disabling and tweaking, you can do so as much as you could with every previous Windows version, why do you need a tool for that?
    PS. Power gamers don't tweak, they play and leave the tweaking to others. ;)


    Regards Joerg Baermann


    Saturday, November 17, 2012 12:29 AM
  • I wonder if windows metro was all this hip and hype and good did they drop x86 support on the tablets? (probably moving forward but sadly most people are still using 32-bit computers with windows 7 on them or just now moving to windows 7). Using metro is not very stable for server environments (windows server 2012) at all because the extra gui features cause problems. From looking at the news from multiple sources and trusted scholarly articles I can conclude that both windows server 2012 and windows 8 are not exactly providing better performance at all (windows 8 does not have power toys yet so no its not good for a gamer trying to get the most of his pc by disabling uneeded services and features ).  

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    2012 runs pretty well on servers, we did some test runs and found it pretty good as a server OS, note that it doesn't have metro like Windows 8.
    There are a lot of nice features in 2012 that beat 2008 R2, not to mention 2003 which is to old and way behind.
    But we can't make a switch now, since a lot of applications don't support it yet.

    As for Windows 8 performance, I found it run way smoother than Windows 7 so far.
    As for disabling and tweaking, you can do so as much as you could with every previous Windows version, why do you need a tool for that?
    PS. Power gamers don't tweak, they play and leave the tweaking to others. ;)


    Regards Joerg Baermann


     I agree for server 2012 because it does not have the metro limitation from what I hear in the articles posted on msdn and other blogs (just got nervous looking around at pictures of it). I can not agree with you on windows 8 though. my boss has a windows 8 running in the board office in an isolated area for anyone to play around with and so far I saw a staff member give a very evil and mean look at windows 8. So far no one has touched it beside my boss and maybe one other person.

    P.S. hope I did not confuse anyone but that post joerg commented on Iam excluding windows 8 on tablets.

     metro is very limited and has a hugh amount of problems that a update patch just cannot fix.

    To put it in plain words people can not be productive, because usual business matters require multiple open windows, notifications from the taskbar, and sometimes a messagebox displaying about a fatal error that just happened such as my hard drive is failing.

    Most businesses the biggest reason for not supporting tablets is cost (I personally have to support android tablets now because our middle school in the district purchased them for their students). 

    I can tell you tablets are for play and so is windows 8 after implementation of an android tablet. What happens when you have an error in an game with directx? how do you display the error dialog?


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr

    Saturday, November 17, 2012 2:37 AM
  • Vegan, i've been busy but I will still send you that invite for the game.

    Oh, I just thought of something that might piss off some xbox gamers. If windows 8 is coming out does that mean the xbox or windows 8 will stay?  I see no difference right now and can get apps on the windows phone 7 or windows phone 8 too why windows 8 tablet even for games?

    Its more of a waste for a tablet but a phone I can understand. I think the proper equation is Portable != useable for business. So far the only audience I see getting a tablet is kids (mainly parents buying for kids) or teenagers not adults. I do agree with vegan though it can be used with gaming but until a service pack is released I do not think its going to hold much ground in that arena. Also, I agree with everyone so far that has talked about how the gui needs clean up work (especially icons but metro reminds me of a cheap html site that could pay the chinese guy selling cheap toys at the flea market saying "one dollar" for a deck of cards. Yes, the chinese are very inventive copy cats you should read about their crazy ass test for employment (usual scenarios end up with them selling the copy cat for way cheaper then anyone else)).

    I know some people mentioned a microsoft store in some articles I found after doing rnadom searchs on google but this is not the way to implement it. I know people rocking windows xp and 2003 servers (my work included) they have programs on them that just will not run on windows 8 (maybe server 2008 for some of them). XP can be replaced but some server programs we have we cannot use server 2012 or windows 8 because of costs in training and ponential issues.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr


    • Edited by The Thinker Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:25 PM
    Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:14 PM
  • I was shocked to see console games on a desktop OS especially given I have a gaming rig. My gaming site is PC games, and the game compatibility is dismal in my opinion.

    keep in mind i have dvd copies of games. I would hate to have to download 2 TB of games every time my rig craps out


    Windows MVP, XP, Vista, 7 and 8. More people have climbed Everest than having 3 MVP's on the wall.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews


    Oh NO! Agreed with both hands up having to download 2 TB of data is a big pain in ass and having the same model as xbox 360 would make playing games much easier (stick in DVD and just play the game).

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr

    Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:28 PM
  • Windows 8 Pro and Enterprise works well on my PC's... with the Start8 application that I bought from Stardock.

    I did remove the entire Metro stuff as well, they are fine on my WP7, for my desktop usage they are rather useless.

    I wonder if someone can fire up several putty sessions, tftp, syslogserver, notepads and other apps from the start screen as fast as one can with the start menu and it's search field on a desktop PC with mouse, keyboard and without touchscreen?

    I can't, even tried to use metro only for a month just to throw it away again, the swapping back and forward is just as annoying as using Ubuntu's Unity.

    Heck, even OSX Mountain Lion is more user friendly out of the box against desktop users.

    And all that because of the move from start menu to start screen, which works pretty well on touch pads thou.


    Regards Joerg Baermann


    I agree with you regarding the desktop user-friendliness of Win8 but why all the work and additional expense in your installations of Win8 when you can stay with Win7? 

    Cause of IE10, to test web sites at work.

    Bad news is that I had to revert 2 developer machines back to Windows 7, even VS2012 runs into complex issues with 8.
    So they just have a shared laptop with Windows 8 for IE10 testing purposes, IE is still not aligned with the other browsers out there when it comes to css, browser developers should be forced to have a common standard regarding that, at least then MS would do like the rest.

    Just reverted my home rig back to 7 today, there where a few bugs that kept spamming my event log in addition to netsh interface settings being reset upon reboot.
    Since I don't really use any of the Metro "Full Screen Only" apps on any desktop PC I won't miss Windows 8 either.
    Also found a few games that run well on 7 as where performance goes down the drain on 8.


    Regards Joerg Baermann

    Saturday, February 02, 2013 3:22 PM
  • One of the bigger gripes I have over Internet Explorer is the problem of standards

    of course IE is under the gun in some jurisdictions following the fallout over the browser fight in the 90s.

    My popular PC gaming site traffic mostly now uses Chrome.  Chrome is also faster at rendering a page.

    I found using virtual machines to be very convenient to test operating systems and applications before releasing them.

    Legacy problems a best moved to a virtual machine where they can be isolated while new development is being done


    Windows MVP, XP, Vista, 7 and 8. More people have climbed Everest than having 3 MVP's on the wall.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

    I agree that most newer operating systems are best kept in a virtual machine environment until the first patchs come around. I should add that kinect support is much wanted for windows 8 on desktop computers. I think touch support is getting kind of old for microsoft to start down that path instead implement kinect (maybe have a small version of kinect for touch devices in the future that looks like a mini clip on camera). I like to quote from back to the future (excuse me if the words are not exactly the line): "you have to touch that's a babys toy!".  Instead we should have our computer systems operate like minority report or like the ones in that  halo mini-series (kinect right now in present stage would be very similar to operate compared to touch except no actual device touching is required). 


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr

    Saturday, February 02, 2013 4:27 PM
  • That would be better then trying to force a unified gui that does nothing

    There is nothing "unified" about the GUI in Windows 8.  That's precisely the problem!

    What they SHOULD have done was increase the utility of the desktop to embrace the mobile OS concepts, and provide a way to run the whole Metro/Modern environment in a window (or multiple windows), and even host the Start screen in a Window (maybe even a Start Menu replacement pop-up).  That would be a "have cake and eat it too" solution, not unlike the "Unity" style solutions made by some virtualization vendors.  Maximizing a Window would offer the "immersive" experience.  It's not like these concepts are new to Windows!

    This whole "make the desktop" secondary concept is the very basis of all this horseshit.  How could anyone in his right mind think that removing the very concept that gives the operating system its NAME was the proper approach?  Any idiot can see that you don't take a more powerful concept and dumb it down to a less powerful concept.  Typical executive thinking...  "I can't think of more than one thing at a time, so no one else can either."

    And does anyone really think that Microsoft is actually going to be able to manage their App Store properly into the future?  Really, what's the difference between this initiative and all the prior failed attempts (e.g., Windows Live Gallery or Gadget Gallery or...)?

    Now a geek needs to be put back in charge so we can expect operating systems again from Microsoft.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel

    You and others may wish to participate in the following petition for the restoration of Aero in Win8

    https://www.change.org/petitions/microsoft-restore-windows-aero-glass-effects-to-windows-8#

    Monday, February 04, 2013 9:21 PM
  • You and others may wish to participate in the following petition for the restoration of Aero in Win8

    https://www.change.org/petitions/microsoft-restore-windows-aero-glass-effects-to-windows-8#

    Aero GLASS you mean, and the attendant effects that make it easier and more pleasant to use a Windows 7 desktop than Windows 8.

    I have never noticed that change.org site before.  Do we know it's not just a scheme for accumulating people's eMail addresses?

    I doubt that a "petition", even if it IS legitimate, will sway Microsoft any more than the millions of folks commenting all across the internet that Microsoft hasn't improved Windows lately.  Typing stuff on the Internet just doesn't seem to yield change in any big way.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, February 04, 2013 11:10 PM
  • Just to add a comical fact to this everlasting (?) thread: After visiting the biggest retail stores (brick & mortar) in my area, I found that Windows 8 is a big success. All new computing offers from OEM's come preinstalled with it. But not on any of the new "form factors" like phablets/tablets/hybrids - those beacons of the "post-PC" era are scarcely present and mostly not Windows-powered. No, the "Windows 8 devices" I could see were good old PC towers, huge 17" laptops and the like, all without any touch capabilities - devices apparently designed for Windows 7 and a bit overcharged by an OS which forces everyone to emulate "touch" without touch. Really: This is a big memento to Vista, launching a maybe (?) promising OS at a time where the hardware is way behind the expectations of the OS designers and way ahead of a normal customer's needs. The OEM ecosystem apparently guarantees sales of this humbug but on the long run, Windows could be seen as a somewhat esoteric complement to "real" mobile/touch systems like Android or iOS which don't pretend to be more than a guidance through some basic functionalities of "communication" (and that's all) devices.

    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    Monday, February 04, 2013 11:20 PM
  • Just to add a comical fact to this everlasting (?) thread: After visiting the biggest retail stores (brick & mortar) in my area, I found that Windows 8 is a big success. All new computing offers from OEM's come preinstalled with it. But not on any of the new "form factors" like phablets/tablets/hybrids - those beacons of the "post-PC" era are scarcely present and mostly not Windows-powered. No, the "Windows 8 devices" I could see were good old PC towers, huge 17" laptops and the like, all without any touch capabilities - devices apparently designed for Windows 7 and a bit overcharged by an OS which forces everyone to emulate "touch" without touch. Really: This is a big memento to Vista, launching a maybe (?) promising OS at a time where the hardware is way behind the expectations of the OS designers and way ahead of a normal customer's needs. The OEM ecosystem apparently guarantees sales of this humbug but on the long run, Windows could be seen as a somewhat esoteric complement to "real" mobile/touch systems like Android or iOS which don't pretend to be more than a guidance through some basic functionalities of "communication" (and that's all) devices.

    Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

    I do not disagree with you on the "big success" story.  Having a monopoly has its uses.  One can foist a really bad OS on people to serve one's ends.  However, this "success" is not succeeding, is it??  The whole idea of this mongrel OS was for Microsoft to sell tablets.  Is Microsoft selling tablets??? No, it is not.  I has been buried by waves of innovation from the Android camp while iOS tablets are coasting along.  Microsoft gets the 3rd position by default, there is really no other contestant.  The public is migrating to smaller tablets (7 - 8 inch ones), where Windows would not even be a consideration.  In the meantime, Microsoft is not giving any reason to anybody to buy new hardware or to upgrade systems.  Yes, Microsoft will keep on selling its 20 million licenses per month, but it would have been doing this just selling WinXP!!! Is this success???

    Now, my ideas about these "hybrid" machines.  Why would they be successful now?  We had these hybrid machines for 10 years now.  I have one myself.  I use the tablet capabilities rarely, the system is mostly a laptop.  I remain highly dubious about the "new" hardware. 
    Monday, February 04, 2013 11:32 PM
  • You and others may wish to participate in the following petition for the restoration of Aero in Win8

    https://www.change.org/petitions/microsoft-restore-windows-aero-glass-effects-to-windows-8#

    Aero GLASS you mean, and the attendant effects that make it easier and more pleasant to use a Windows 7 desktop than Windows 8.

    I have never noticed that change.org site before.  Do we know it's not just a scheme for accumulating people's eMail addresses?

    I doubt that a "petition", even if it IS legitimate, will sway Microsoft any more than the millions of folks commenting all across the internet that Microsoft hasn't improved Windows lately.  Typing stuff on the Internet just doesn't seem to yield change in any big way.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Noel, one can only try.  If you do not try, you would definitely lose.
    Monday, February 04, 2013 11:33 PM
  • I never said don't try.  I think my having thousands of posts here on Microsoft's own forums is testament to my desire to try.  But some random petition from a site I never saw before just makes me yawn.

    Any idiot can tell people want Aero Glass back - as an option.  Funny thing, in my case I don't care that much about whether the nice "blurred glass" effect is there - though to be fair it DOES help differentiate parts of windows, which is good - but rather I miss the drop shadow, which helps one spot and track overlapping window edges.  Trouble is, the theme implementation is buried deep in protected OS code.

    Not everyone is a sheep and "just loves" the "digitally authentic" hype Microsoft is trying to push.  "Digitally authentic" just means flat and square.  Been there, done that, back in the days of CGA, then we saw better.  We already know that computers are fast enough, and every single tablet is powerful enough right now today to have whatever corners and translucency you like.  People don't move windows around enough that it's any kind of practical power issue either.  No, this is just one more jab in the eye by Microsoft, much the same as removing the ability to configure desktop metrics and colors entirely.

    Maybe they're setting up Windows 8 to be the "fall guy", so that a new and improved Windows 9 that reinstates a lot of things we've lost might seem like a great white hope.  Certainly Microsoft is continuing to make money by the continued sale of Windows 7 to enterprises.

    What's ironic is that if they'd just been a bit less aggressive about deleting features - just leaving them in as options that an expert could configure - they'd have sold upgrades to a lot of enthusiasts and professionals who are sticking with Windows 7.  Windows 8 isn't that much WORSE, per se, and most folks do feel some desire to "keep current".  Trouble is, right now something like 39 out of every 40 Windows desktop users have chosen to NOT upgrade, even though Microsoft practically gave the new OS away.  That says "epic fail" to me, and I doubt a whole lot of upgrades have sold in the last 4 days since the prices went up.  I sure don't feel like buying it any more than I did. 

    They're missing out on tens or even hundreds of millions of desktop users waltzing through the App Store, when all they'd have had to do is not be so aggressive about deleting things they already had right to get them there.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    • Edited by Noel Carboni Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:19 AM typo
    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:17 AM

  • Maybe they're setting up Windows 8 to be the "fall guy", so that a new and improved Windows 9 that reinstates a lot of things we've lost might seem like a great white hope.  Certainly Microsoft is continuing to make money by the continued sale of Windows 7 to enterprises.



    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    Noel, you are an optimist, this is for sure.  No, Win9 will not reinstate anything; in fact, it would eliminate much more.  Microsoft has already provided some details on this.  The whole desire here is to make Windows as competitive as possible in the tablets and smartphones.  I am not sure that going against iOS and Android is a smart approach, but this is what they are trying to do.

    Remaining "current" is a weird notion for Win8, as there are two OSes here.  "Current" would soon mean lower and lower capabilities for the desktop and augmentation of the WinRT/Metro component.  I have no use for the mobile part of Win8, so I really do not care for the shop either. 

    Microsoft is not worrying at all about upgrades.  What the company worries about is how many tablets and smartphones it is going to sell.  Win8 was designed for tablets.  For Microsoft to score a success here, it must sell lots and lots of tablets.  This is the game plan.  If it fails, then there may be some re-appraisal.

    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 6:40 AM
  • Noel, you are an optimist, this is for sure.  No, Win9 will not reinstate anything; in fact, it would eliminate much more. 

    I try to be.  You certainly have your finger on Microsoft's pulse, but unlike you I don't see the future as having been written yet.

    That Microsoft feels it must ABANDON the desktop to go pursue other things is at the very core of everyone's disbelief.  Where is it written that you have to leave behind current serious development work in order to move on to other things?  What happened to growing the business?  Why can't there be ongoing serious OS work AND toy development?  Too hard to manage?  Justice department doesn't like things growing that large?  So spin off a separate company.

    How can Microsoft just turn its back on hundreds of millions of potential software sales?  Computers are not going to go away; there is more need today to create content that consumers use than ever before.  The thing that's unbelievable is that Microsoft is saying, louder than words, "we'll leave that to someone else".

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:42 PM
  • Noel, you are an optimist, this is for sure.  No, Win9 will not reinstate anything; in fact, it would eliminate much more. 

    I try to be.  You certainly have your finger on Microsoft's pulse, but unlike you I don't see the future as having been written yet.

    That Microsoft feels it must ABANDON the desktop to go pursue other things is at the very core of everyone's disbelief.  Where is it written that you have to leave behind current serious development work in order to move on to other things?  What happened to growing the business?  Why can't there be ongoing serious OS work AND toy development?  Too hard to manage?  Justice department doesn't like things growing that large?  So spin off a separate company.

    How can Microsoft just turn its back on hundreds of millions of potential software sales?  Computers are not going to go away; there is more need today to create content that consumers use than ever before.  The thing that's unbelievable is that Microsoft is saying, louder than words, "we'll leave that to someone else".

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel, being an optimist is a good thing and I hope that the future will turn out as you want it.  I hope...

    For the next version of Windows, Microsoft leaked some interesting details: the "Metro" icons will be resizable, the code will extent to encompass WinPhone 8 (apps would now run in both Win8 and WinPhone8) and the last vestiges of Aero would be removed (Microsoft calls this "streamlining" the desktop).  My guess is that when this version of Win8.x or Win9 is released in the summer of this year, many of the tools that "customize" Win8 would no longer work.

    You are wondering as to why Microsoft is interested in abandoning a successful business.  From Microsoft's viewpoint, things look very different.  First and foremost, you are not a Microsoft client.  Microsoft sells licenses to OEMs.  The number of licenses it sells to individuals are miniscule.  Microsoft has decided that for the time being, its OEMs are going nowhere else (quite rightly so) and that they have an "interest" in promoting Microsoft's platform (as they have no other choice).  Thus, having "secured" this front, Microsoft i attempting to get a slice of the mobile market.

    I have to give them credit for playing a sophisticated marketing game.  A full-screen app is now providing an "immersive experience"; the stark and flat Metro Gui is "digitally authentic" and so on.  They have gone and paid good money to many key web sites to post daily "the 10 best Win8 apps" and pay "serious reviewers" to provide at least acceptable reviews.  In this way, some of the existing base is placated, others follow because they want to be "current" (whatever this means) and possibly new vistas open up.  Marketing people are quite arrogant thinking that they can sell mostly anything.  And Ballmer is a marketing person!!!

    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 6:26 PM
  • Noel, you are an optimist, this is for sure.  No, Win9 will not reinstate anything; in fact, it would eliminate much more. 

    I try to be.  You certainly have your finger on Microsoft's pulse, but unlike you I don't see the future as having been written yet.

    That Microsoft feels it must ABANDON the desktop to go pursue other things is at the very core of everyone's disbelief.  Where is it written that you have to leave behind current serious development work in order to move on to other things?  What happened to growing the business?  Why can't there be ongoing serious OS work AND toy development?  Too hard to manage?  Justice department doesn't like things growing that large?  So spin off a separate company.

    How can Microsoft just turn its back on hundreds of millions of potential software sales?  Computers are not going to go away; there is more need today to create content that consumers use than ever before.  The thing that's unbelievable is that Microsoft is saying, louder than words, "we'll leave that to someone else".

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel, being an optimist is a good thing and I hope that the future will turn out as you want it.  I hope...

    For the next version of Windows, Microsoft leaked some interesting details: the "Metro" icons will be resizable, the code will extent to encompass WinPhone 8 (apps would now run in both Win8 and WinPhone8) and the last vestiges of Aero would be removed (Microsoft calls this "streamlining" the desktop).  My guess is that when this version of Win8.x or Win9 is released in the summer of this year, many of the tools that "customize" Win8 would no longer work.

    You are wondering as to why Microsoft is interested in abandoning a successful business.  From Microsoft's viewpoint, things look very different.  First and foremost, you are not a Microsoft client.  Microsoft sells licenses to OEMs.  The number of licenses it sells to individuals are miniscule.  Microsoft has decided that for the time being, its OEMs are going nowhere else (quite rightly so) and that they have an "interest" in promoting Microsoft's platform (as they have no other choice).  Thus, having "secured" this front, Microsoft i attempting to get a slice of the mobile market.

    I have to give them credit for playing a sophisticated marketing game.  A full-screen app is now providing an "immersive experience"; the stark and flat Metro Gui is "digitally authentic" and so on.  They have gone and paid good money to many key web sites to post daily "the 10 best Win8 apps" and pay "serious reviewers" to provide at least acceptable reviews.  In this way, some of the existing base is placated, others follow because they want to be "current" (whatever this means) and possibly new vistas open up.  Marketing people are quite arrogant thinking that they can sell mostly anything.  And Ballmer is a marketing person!!!

    what is this "immersive experience" maybe a child's game or a run down version of office that takes away features that the current desktop version of office gives you already? (most tablets I have seen tend to do this without regard for the end-user). You think you are getting a good deal until you realize you are writing a paper for college and you need the advanced features a desktop office application can give. 

    Just remember ARDz it can go both ways with an OEM. IBM, DELL, or other OEM's could decide to only order limited quantities of windows 9 because it might not fit in with their "overall plan" thus limiting Microsoft's selling strategy of windows 9 even further. 

    Just for reference: At work a teacher sent in a PO for a windows 8 dell tablet so I shall see what troubles that I run into and post them here for Microsoft to improve.

    P.S. I think I have seen more articles stuff Microsoft's face in the dirt on zdnet and many tech sites and blogs then promote it.

    I might actually go with windows 9 if it:

    1. Has an add-on that brings back windows desktop mode.

    2. Has the ability to turn off metro on desktop and laptop versions when installing windows (much preferred for IT users) or have metro disabled for desktops and laptops with no-touch enabled devices.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr


    • Edited by The Thinker Tuesday, February 05, 2013 7:29 PM
    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 7:28 PM
  • what is this "immersive experience" maybe a child's game or a run down version of office that takes away features

    That's it in a nutshell.  I agree with ADRz - it's the biggest (marketing) game of "emperor's new clothes" I think I've seen in my life.

    It almost seems as if someone at Microsoft must have said "Control the market and save money by not having to pay expensive, intelligent geeks to do their best work" and "Market stuff like there's no tomorrow" followed under the breath by "because I'll be retired and on the beach tomorrow."

    Back when I was working for a big corporation we geeks hated Marketeers because they were like black holes for value.  Not only did they fail to create any, but they sucked it out of whatever was around them.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 8:35 PM
  • what is this "immersive experience" maybe a child's game or a run down version of office that takes away features that the current desktop version of office gives you already? (most tablets I have seen tend to do this without regard for the end-user). You think you are getting a good deal until you realize you are writing a paper for college and you need the advanced features a desktop office application can give. 

    Just remember ARDz it can go both ways with an OEM. IBM, DELL, or other OEM's could decide to only order limited quantities of windows 9 because it might not fit in with their "overall plan" thus limiting Microsoft's selling strategy of windows 9 even further. 

    Just for reference: At work a teacher sent in a PO for a windows 8 dell tablet so I shall see what troubles that I run into and post them here for Microsoft to improve.

    P.S. I think I have seen more articles stuff Microsoft's face in the dirt on zdnet and many tech sites and blogs then promote it.

    I might actually go with windows 9 if it:

    1. Has an add-on that brings back windows desktop mode.

    2. Has the ability to turn off metro on desktop and laptop versions when installing windows (much preferred for IT users) or have metro disabled for desktops and laptops with no-touch enabled devices.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr


    I hear you but where would Dell go to sell more computers?  Do not forget, it has to sell more.  Now that Microsoft owns about 15% of Dell, I would not expect any leadership there.  There is no solution for most of the OEMs except what Microsoft sells them.  Apple does not license its OS.  Sure, they can start selling Linux-based machines, but good luck with that!!!  No, the OEMs are hog-tied to Microsoft, come rain and come shine.  Do not expect anything there. Microsoft knows this and thus, no worries on that front.

    Win9 will have an even more limited desktop than Win8.  Microsoft made this very clear. 

    The best way to see how Windows would evolve, is to see Android today.  In Android, you can run the Windows desktop through emulation.  In fact, you can get use Onlive Desktop to run basic productivity applications.  This is how future versions of Windows will work.  The access to the desktop will be through a subscription (as it is evolving now).  Windows will simply match the capabilities that Android has today (which allow it to run the Windows desktop).  Sure, all of this is quite basic and support for powerful machines is missing but hey, Sinofski was convinced that 85% of users never used any of these.  I think that Microsoft still believes this.  

    Essentially, Microsoft clearly stated in Sinofski's blog that it is willing to abandon 15% of its users (the power users) to get  a good slice of the mobile market.  This is the current calculation and this is where Windows is evolving.

    -----

    Now, I hear Noel's point that Microsoft may decide to develop an OS for this 15% of power users, but let's be reasonable.  To support thousands of drivers and thousands of configurations (about 1700 at last count) while selling to a tiny minority of users, this OS would cost $3,000 or above per license (the Win7 Ultimate license was about $300, right?).  I do not think that there is a market there!!!

    ----

    The chance of ever seen a Win9 in which you can turn off Metro is ziltch (and I hope I am wrong).  The chance of seen a Win9 in which you can turn off the desktop is 90%.

    Let's not live in denial.

    Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:43 PM
  • what is this "immersive experience" maybe a child's game or a run down version of office that takes away features that the current desktop version of office gives you already? (most tablets I have seen tend to do this without regard for the end-user). You think you are getting a good deal until you realize you are writing a paper for college and you need the advanced features a desktop office application can give. 

    Just remember ARDz it can go both ways with an OEM. IBM, DELL, or other OEM's could decide to only order limited quantities of windows 9 because it might not fit in with their "overall plan" thus limiting Microsoft's selling strategy of windows 9 even further. 

    Just for reference: At work a teacher sent in a PO for a windows 8 dell tablet so I shall see what troubles that I run into and post them here for Microsoft to improve.

    P.S. I think I have seen more articles stuff Microsoft's face in the dirt on zdnet and many tech sites and blogs then promote it.

    I might actually go with windows 9 if it:

    1. Has an add-on that brings back windows desktop mode.

    2. Has the ability to turn off metro on desktop and laptop versions when installing windows (much preferred for IT users) or have metro disabled for desktops and laptops with no-touch enabled devices.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr


    I hear you but where would Dell go to sell more computers?  Do not forget, it has to sell more.  Now that Microsoft owns about 15% of Dell, I would not expect any leadership there.  There is no solution for most of the OEMs except what Microsoft sells them.  Apple does not license its OS.  Sure, they can start selling Linux-based machines, but good luck with that!!!  No, the OEMs are hog-tied to Microsoft, come rain and come shine.  Do not expect anything there. Microsoft knows this and thus, no worries on that front.

    Win9 will have an even more limited desktop than Win8.  Microsoft made this very clear. 

    The best way to see how Windows would evolve, is to see Android today.  In Android, you can run the Windows desktop through emulation.  In fact, you can get use Onlive Desktop to run basic productivity applications.  This is how future versions of Windows will work.  The access to the desktop will be through a subscription (as it is evolving now).  Windows will simply match the capabilities that Android has today (which allow it to run the Windows desktop).  Sure, all of this is quite basic and support for powerful machines is missing but hey, Sinofski was convinced that 85% of users never used any of these.  I think that Microsoft still believes this.  

    Essentially, Microsoft clearly stated in Sinofski's blog that it is willing to abandon 15% of its users (the power users) to get  a good slice of the mobile market.  This is the current calculation and this is where Windows is evolving.

    -----

    Now, I hear Noel's point that Microsoft may decide to develop an OS for this 15% of power users, but let's be reasonable.  To support thousands of drivers and thousands of configurations (about 1700 at last count) while selling to a tiny minority of users, this OS would cost $3,000 or above per license (the Win7 Ultimate license was about $300, right?).  I do not think that there is a market there!!!

    ----

    The chance of ever seen a Win9 in which you can turn off Metro is ziltch (and I hope I am wrong).  The chance of seen a Win9 in which you can turn off the desktop is 90%.

    Let's not live in denial.

    That would leave out many of microsofts biggest buyers such as the government and education who needs the customization (we need to image computers because we (me and my boss are the only legitimate IT staff) are not going to sit around for hours fixing up 1,200 computers to have 20-30 software programs that we are required to run now when we can image a lab of 30 computers in 30-45 min). I have an article on why OS's are not important from my class I had to write about  in a discussion board for the class and most people in my web systems development class agree both that:

    1. windows 8 is not ready for business deployment

    2.  Operating systems will be important for a very long time.

    Give me some more time and I will edit with the article link.

    For an example, at my job I work in the public K-12 sector and most people in my state in the public sector are just now getting windows 7 computers. We will end up keeping those computers for about 4-5 years because of the type of funding the school system gets from state and sometimes federal government. This is not by choice but by necessity.

    As I like to point out an old business quote: "the customer is king"

    In this instance the government and education sector buy a lot of Volume licensing deals (which is not consistent but is a large portion of profits for Microsoft besides maybe  video game developer companies signing deals with Microsoft). They alone stand to lose a large portion of money if they move too quick and end volume licensing (Even apple has a similar program for their devices).

    References:

    http://www.apple.com/mac/volume-licensing/

    Edit: so it would be a dumb gesture on the marketing side to end volume licensing on Microsoft products and equivalent to chopping off Microsoft's legs while apple runs around with legs to the finish line taunting Microsoft for its foolish actions.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr










    • Edited by The Thinker Wednesday, February 06, 2013 4:35 PM
    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 3:14 PM
  • I have seen lots of Dell computers in the shop for repair. I have seen so many dodgy components in them I sometimes stare in disbelief.

    Power supplies are standardized, but Dell swerves. This means no cheap PSU upgrade or replacement due to nonstandard pinouts.

    The mobile machines are no better. HP at least provides relatively standard hardware.

    I user enterprise windows and Dell is harder to deploy that on compared to HP or Toshiba.

    Once Dell cleans up their act and recognizes proper standards......


    Windows MVP, XP, Vista, 7 and 8. More people have climbed Everest than having 3 MVP's on the wall.

    Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

    I have some dell computers and most of them have standard parts. IBM is the worst at sending you the computer with wrong operating system and they do not put the model number on the front of desktop computers like dell. This is from experience of them sending us a computer with windows 7 home instead of professional to a professional workplace and multiple times!

    Edit: I forgot that the dell computers I have are business class so it may differ on personal home computers.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://www.computerprofessions.co.nr





    • Edited by The Thinker Wednesday, February 06, 2013 4:19 PM
    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 3:21 PM
  • Now, I hear Noel's point that Microsoft may decide to develop an OS for this 15% of power users, but let's be reasonable.  To support thousands of drivers and thousands of configurations (about 1700 at last count) while selling to a tiny minority of users, this OS would cost $3,000 or above per license (the Win7 Ultimate license was about $300, right?).  I do not think that there is a market there!!!

    1.  I don't think the number is really that small, and even if it is 15% we're talking about 150,000,000 licenses in very round numbers.  It's not like the world is turning away from the need to develop more high tech.

    2.  I DO believe a professional OS could be "professionally priced" at some thousands of dollars - assuming it delivered professional power and quality.  Don't forget that there are still users who buy $10K workstations (I do), and that businesses used to pay millions of dollars for computers, back before economies of scale made "personal" computing cheaper than dirt.  Businesses STILL pay thousands of dollars for software to get their work done - look at an Adobe Creative Suite license some time as an example.

    3.  One important thing is that if Microsoft has plans to continue to be in the operating system business, they'll need SOMETHING to develop future versions of the operating system WITH.  Anyone who thinks that's going to happen on tablets is being childish.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 7:52 PM
  • Now, I hear Noel's point that Microsoft may decide to develop an OS for this 15% of power users, but let's be reasonable.  To support thousands of drivers and thousands of configurations (about 1700 at last count) while selling to a tiny minority of users, this OS would cost $3,000 or above per license (the Win7 Ultimate license was about $300, right?).  I do not think that there is a market there!!!

    1.  I don't think the number is really that small, and even if it is 15% we're talking about 150,000,000 licenses in very round numbers.  It's not like the world is turning away from the need to develop more high tech.

    2.  I DO believe a professional OS could be "professionally priced" at some thousands of dollars - assuming it delivered professional power and quality.  Don't forget that there are still users who buy $10K workstations (I do), and that businesses used to pay millions of dollars for computers, back before economies of scale made "personal" computing cheaper than dirt.  Businesses STILL pay thousands of dollars for software to get their work done - look at an Adobe Creative Suite license some time as an example.

    3.  One important thing is that if Microsoft has plans to continue to be in the operating system business, they'll need SOMETHING to develop future versions of the operating system WITH.  Anyone who thinks that's going to happen on tablets is being childish.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Well, I agree.  But here is a bit of news that you may enjoy:

    Here in the Bay Area, I have hear a number of ads on radio from computer outfits offering services to downgrade computers from Windows 8 to Windows 7!!!  This is becoming a real business now! 

    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:49 PM

  • That would leave out many of microsofts biggest buyers such as the government and education who needs the customization (we need to image computers because we (me and my boss are the only legitimate IT staff) are not going to sit around for hours fixing up 1,200 computers to have 20-30 software programs that we are required to run now when we can image a lab of 30 computers in 30-45 min). I have an article on why OS's are not important from my class I had to write about  in a discussion board for the class and most people in my web systems development class agree both that:

    1. windows 8 is not ready for business deployment

    2.  Operating systems will be important for a very long time.

    Give me some more time and I will edit with the article link.

    For an example, at my job I work in the public K-12 sector and most people in my state in the public sector are just now getting windows 7 computers. We will end up keeping those computers for about 4-5 years because of the type of funding the school system gets from state and sometimes federal government. This is not by choice but by necessity.

    As I like to point out an old business quote: "the customer is king"

    In this instance the government and education sector buy a lot of Volume licensing deals (which is not consistent but is a large portion of profits for Microsoft besides maybe  video game developer companies signing deals with Microsoft). They alone stand to lose a large portion of money if they move too quick and end volume licensing (Even apple has a similar program for their devices).

    References:

    http://www.apple.com/mac/volume-licensing/

    Edit: so it would be a dumb gesture on the marketing side to end volume licensing on Microsoft products and equivalent to chopping off Microsoft's legs while apple runs around with legs to the finish line taunting Microsoft for its foolish actions.



    I hear you.  Of course, this does not stop Microsoft pitching Win8 to businesses.  In fact, there is a strong marketing effort here.  Out of the 20 million units Microsoft is shipping monthly, the majority are going to businesses.  Now, in truth, a number of them will be re-imaged with Win7 or WinXP.  But the effort to sell to businesses is well underway. 

    Microsoft strongly believes that if there is no other choice, the users will cry uncle and give in.  And it may be right.

    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:54 PM
  • 8 is fine with office and adobe products, for most corporate users its not a problem

    its mainly pc games that are problematic

    LOL, you're trying to run games that require too much computer power and are just too complicated for Windows 8.  :-)

    You didn't buy them from the App Store.  How on Earth do you expect them to work?  Windows 8 will "protect" your system from nasty stuff from the wild (non percentage-paying) internet!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 12:21 AM
  • I don't doubt your game expertise or prowess, VF.  Note that my post contains a smidgeon of sarcasm (directed at Microsoft, not you).

    The DVD distribution channel is probably on its way out, though.  That is, unless you can order a DVD through Microsoft's App Store.

    I wonder how long until Microsoft tires of vetting and approving applications for the App Store (or just egregiously mismanages it), and it just falls into disarray.  Pardon me for being negative, but we've seen Microsoft fall down on the job before - e.g., the Windows Live Gallery, Gadget Gallery, etc. etc.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 12:35 AM
  • I don't doubt your game expertise or prowess, VF.  Note that my post contains a smidgeon of sarcasm (directed at Microsoft, not you).

    The DVD distribution channel is probably on its way out, though.  That is, unless you can order a DVD through Microsoft's App Store.

    I wonder how long until Microsoft tires of vetting and approving applications for the App Store (or just egregiously mismanages it), and it just falls into disarray.  Pardon me for being negative, but we've seen Microsoft fall down on the job before - e.g., the Windows Live Gallery, Gadget Gallery, etc. etc.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Yes, Steam and similar software will soon replace most of the disk distribution.  However, the disks would be required to play the game without connectivity.  For some, this still counts a lot.
    Thursday, February 07, 2013 5:02 PM
  • You're looking at current and past history.  Microsoft is looking ahead.  We all have to guess at where "ahead" is, while Microsoft to some extent gets to SET where "ahead" is.  The endless debate here is about whether each of us agrees with their choices.

    As ADRz might say, Microsoft isn't making any money directly off facilitating your playing an old DVD-based game.  Indirectly, maybe, as you might seek a new computer at some point.

    And that takes us to the heart of the point at hand:  Not only doesn't Microsoft care to support me any longer, with my needs to support business use of my computers, but apparently Microsoft doesn't see much merit in selling you new, more powerful computer systems with Windows 8 pre-installed and with which to play your games better either. 

    It's almost impossible to imagine a company so big as to turn away from these things.  Certainly business spends money (they're the ones with Real Money because they MAKE it using computers), and the sheer size of the gaming market is amazing - it has certainly powered fantastic developments in GPUs and computer speed - but Microsoft just seems to want to turn away from all that and to "think small and simple" instead of continuing into the realms of more and more computer power and complexity.  Perhaps it's just easier to manage "small and simple" things and still get rich. 

    We're all scratching our heads.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 8:10 PM
  • You're looking at current and past history.  Microsoft is looking ahead.  We all have to guess at where "ahead" is, while Microsoft to some extent gets to SET where "ahead" is.  The endless debate here is about whether each of us agrees with their choices.

    As ADRz might say, Microsoft isn't making any money directly off facilitating your playing an old DVD-based game.  Indirectly, maybe, as you might seek a new computer at some point.

    And that takes us to the heart of the point at hand:  Not only doesn't Microsoft care to support me any longer, with my needs to support business use of my computers, but apparently Microsoft doesn't see much merit in selling you new, more powerful computer systems with Windows 8 pre-installed and with which to play your games better either. 

    It's almost impossible to imagine a company so big as to turn away from these things.  Certainly business spends money (they're the ones with Real Money because they MAKE it using computers), and the sheer size of the gaming market is amazing - it has certainly powered fantastic developments in GPUs and computer speed - but Microsoft just seems to want to turn away from all that and to "think small and simple" instead of continuing into the realms of more and more computer power and complexity.  Perhaps it's just easier to manage "small and simple" things and still get rich. 

    We're all scratching our heads.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel,  you are forgetting the obvious here.  Microsoft does sell another piece of hardware, the XBox 360 (soon to be the XBox 720) which it positions as a competition to Steam and even your cable box.  Thus, Microsoft is directly in the gaming business; it is not in the PC gaming business, this is all.  In fact, Microsoft probably wants to "kill" the PC gaming business, in order to divert gaming dollars to XBox and to the Windows Marketplace.

    Microsoft is not a benevolent force helping users.  Try a charity for this. Microsoft's main task is to make money for its investors.  Apparently, although business spends money, it does not spent nearly enough to compete with the consumer purchase volume as Apple, Google and Amazon have illustrated.  Obviously, Microsoft has decided that it is better to be a smaller fish in a big pond than a very large fish in a small pond. 

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 8:36 PM
  • Noel,  you are forgetting the obvious here. 

    Not at all - reference my comment about Microsoft SETTING direction. 

    My point was exactly that a lot of things we might think of as current are old news and uninteresting to those SETTING the direction for the future.  Discs are, frankly, ancient history.

    An "all download" future isn't hard to imagine, but even that isn't "future" - it's "old news" for some folks already.  I have a fiber internet connection at home, for years now - downloading gigabytes is no big deal at all.  Folks already walk around with 4G+ technology in their pockets.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 9:16 PM
  • Hi

    The Thinker has created a part 4 for this thread at the following link.

    windows 8 not going to cut it part 4:
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/W8ITProPreRel/thread/af6b8d5e-5711-4287-90f0-0b0c00bf6f8c

    I will lock this thread.

    Thanks

    Thursday, February 07, 2013 9:44 PM
    Moderator