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HIS 2000 communication through SNA/TCP-IP over Mainframe OS/390 2.10 & Z/OS 1.6

    Question

  • Hi Every one,

                       I got one risk project recently where i have HIS 2000 communicating to CICS v1.3 through SNA protocol. but the cureent frontend processor using in SNA connectivity is almost gone, so testing the TCP/IP option available in Host Integration Server 2000. I know we are too back ward on versoning , but this is what i got.

    1>      Does any body experienced this migration before and can explain how should we proceed?

    2>      Any recommanded suggetion?

     

    Friday, October 14, 2011 3:37 PM

Answers

  • HIS 2000 does not provide an option for SNA applications (e.g. 3270 emulators, APPC applications) to connect to the mainframe over IP. We added this support in HIS 2004 withe IP-DLC link service. The IP-DLC link service integrates with IBM Enterprise Extender to allow SNA traffic over UDP.

    If you happen to be using COMTI, then this feature also supports direct TCP/IP connections in addition to using LU 6.2 sessions via a HIS 2000 Server. If you are usaing COMTI over LU 6.2, then you'd need to modify the applications to use TCP/IP Remote Environments (REs) in COMTI to make the change to TCP/IP. The applications woudl also likely need other changes as the backend CICS would also need to be ready to use TCP/IP in this manner.

    If you have legacy SNA applications, the best option would be to upgrade to HIS 2010 (currently available version) and implement the IP-DLC link service and IBM Enterprise Extender.

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Friday, October 14, 2011 4:27 PM
  • 1) The following is from the HIS 2010 Installation_Guide:

    Supported Host Systems

    The following table lists supported host systems.

    Host System

    Product and Version

    Operating Systems

    IBM z/OS V1.9, V1.10 and V1.11

    IBM zVSE V4.1 and V4.2

    IBM zVM V5.4 and V6.1

    IBM i5/OS V5R4 and V6R1

    Transaction Processing Systems

    IBM CICS for z/OS V3.1, V3.2 and V4.1

    IBM IMS V10 and IMS V11

    IBM i5/OS V5R4 and V6R1

     

    This is a partial list as it does include the infromation for DB2 versions, Host file systems and messaging.

    We also test and list as supported the IBM versions that are supported by IBM when we release and HIS version. Only versions usually work fine as well, but there have been times where changes are made that cause some incompatibilities.

     

    2 - 5) In order to properly address these, it would be good to know if you are using Transaction Integrator (formerly called COMTI) currently and are asking because you are thinking of moving the current COMTI applications to Web Services.

    TI uses TCP/IP or LU 6.2 to connect to the mainframe. In addition, we also have an HTTP transport for TI. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg167635(v=BTS.70).aspx#AppIntegration.

    Some more details about what you arecurrently doing in HIS 2000 might help.

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Friday, October 14, 2011 6:26 PM
  • Personally, I don't know of any partners that can handle both the HIS and IBM sides of this. I'm sure there are some, but I'm not aware of any.

    You can open a support case with Microsoft to start with as that may be enough to get you going.

    Thanks...

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:58 PM
  • In working with HIS customers, it is common that the environment is split into the following:

    - Mainframe

    - HIS  Servers

    - Applications

    In general, I find that the HIS Server Admins work with the Mainframe Admins to get the infromation needed to setup the HIS Server (PU and LU information, IP-DLC related information). The HIS Server Admins work with the Applications Teams to make sure that each side has the information they need to get the applications working through HIS.

    If you are only working with the applications, you should not be concerned with the actual connections to the mainframe or how all that works. You'd really only need to know the LU information that your application needs. You'd also need the names/addresses of the HIS Servers so that you could correctly configured the HIS Client if the applications are running on HIS Client systems.

    If you have HIS Server Admins, then they would be the ones to worry about the IP-DLC portion of the setup along the mainframe team.

    Thanks...

     

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Monday, October 24, 2011 4:11 PM
  • The usual troubleshooting steps on our end is to take a look at the HIS configuration, the application event log, and then possibly traces to see where things might be going wrong.

    If you could indicate what you are seeing at this point, we might be able to narrow the scope down a little.

    Is the mainframe connection in SNA Manager in an Active state?

    What types of LUs (3270, LUa, APPC) are you trying to work with?

    We do include a Diagnostics (display.exe) utility on the Tools menu in SNA Manager that can be used for some testing. The APPC Test option in the tool is useful to seeign if you can establish a LU 6.2 session over the specified Local APPC LU, Remote APPC, APPC Mode. It can also display the status of 3270 LUs, Connections, etc.

    You have only indicated that you were communicating with CICS v1.3 over SNA, but you haven't really indicated if you were using Transaction Integrator or if you have another APPC application that is being used. Some additional details would help.

    Thanks...

     

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:23 PM
    Monday, October 31, 2011 9:18 PM
  • That is hard to say without more information. A lot of it depends on what COMTI programming modeil that you are currently using. Also, if you go to TCP/IP, it will require changes on the mainframe side as well since you will have to have a TCP/IP listener running.

    You might start with the following documentation:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg162893(v=BTS.70).aspx

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg164835(v=BTS.70).aspx

    The following KB article is dated, but it gives information about the TCP/IP listener that can be used on the mainframe:

    231862 Configuring COMTI to Use TCP/IP Link to CICS Using the Cedar Bank Demo
    http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;231862

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    Friday, November 04, 2011 8:18 PM

All replies

  • HIS 2000 does not provide an option for SNA applications (e.g. 3270 emulators, APPC applications) to connect to the mainframe over IP. We added this support in HIS 2004 withe IP-DLC link service. The IP-DLC link service integrates with IBM Enterprise Extender to allow SNA traffic over UDP.

    If you happen to be using COMTI, then this feature also supports direct TCP/IP connections in addition to using LU 6.2 sessions via a HIS 2000 Server. If you are usaing COMTI over LU 6.2, then you'd need to modify the applications to use TCP/IP Remote Environments (REs) in COMTI to make the change to TCP/IP. The applications woudl also likely need other changes as the backend CICS would also need to be ready to use TCP/IP in this manner.

    If you have legacy SNA applications, the best option would be to upgrade to HIS 2010 (currently available version) and implement the IP-DLC link service and IBM Enterprise Extender.

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Friday, October 14, 2011 4:27 PM
  • Thanks Stephen for your inline point to point answer.

    1> If we were to use HIS 2010, does it is backwork compitible with Mainframe OS Z/1.6 and CICS 1.3?

    2> Also i found other few options regarding Web Services, but looks like it is not supported in CICS 1.3 and os Z/1.6. So if we will use HIS 2010, how web services can be implemented and what other updagration we need to consider?

    3> Does Web Services provide Synchronous connection as that is what out requirement is?

    4> Does Web Services use TCP/IP connection ultimately or it has its own protocol communication?

    5> Do we have to consider WCF at this point and whay WCF provide us?

     

    Thanks, for the assistance.

    Friday, October 14, 2011 4:36 PM
  • 1) The following is from the HIS 2010 Installation_Guide:

    Supported Host Systems

    The following table lists supported host systems.

    Host System

    Product and Version

    Operating Systems

    IBM z/OS V1.9, V1.10 and V1.11

    IBM zVSE V4.1 and V4.2

    IBM zVM V5.4 and V6.1

    IBM i5/OS V5R4 and V6R1

    Transaction Processing Systems

    IBM CICS for z/OS V3.1, V3.2 and V4.1

    IBM IMS V10 and IMS V11

    IBM i5/OS V5R4 and V6R1

     

    This is a partial list as it does include the infromation for DB2 versions, Host file systems and messaging.

    We also test and list as supported the IBM versions that are supported by IBM when we release and HIS version. Only versions usually work fine as well, but there have been times where changes are made that cause some incompatibilities.

     

    2 - 5) In order to properly address these, it would be good to know if you are using Transaction Integrator (formerly called COMTI) currently and are asking because you are thinking of moving the current COMTI applications to Web Services.

    TI uses TCP/IP or LU 6.2 to connect to the mainframe. In addition, we also have an HTTP transport for TI. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg167635(v=BTS.70).aspx#AppIntegration.

    Some more details about what you arecurrently doing in HIS 2000 might help.

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Friday, October 14, 2011 6:26 PM
  • Thanks Stephen again for your help here.

    When i come to Mainframe area, its hard for me to imagine the environment. 

    Looks like we need Microsoft support and let their Sales Rep come to corporate to find out the what environment we have and what recommandation they have for us.

    Friday, October 14, 2011 7:29 PM

  • Nick - I assume
     
    Note that I am covering this thread from the perspective of SNA and z/OS Communications Server, the product which supports Enterprise Extender as defined in RFC 2353, "APPN/HPR in IP Networks", and as implemented by the SNA APPN node support in the so-called "IP-DLC Link Service" component of HIS.
     
    To ask what levels of IBM software are supported for use with Microsoft software when the connection between them is by means of open communications protocols is largely pointless.
     
    HIS, from the 2004 level as Stephen Jackson said, supports the "IP-DLC Link Service" component and hence RFC 2353. The IBM operating system, initially, as far as the current discussion is concerned, OS/390 from V2R6 and later z/OS and its associated Communications Server product have supported Enterprise Extender, RFC 2353 since 1998, shortly after which, in 1999, I used to give classes on the topic.
     
    > 1> If we were to use HIS 2010, is it backwards compatible with z/OS V1R6 ...?
     
    Thus, correcting somewhat your rather wayward English - and IBM terminology, the "IP-DLC Link Service" component of HIS 2010 has been supported from OS/390 V2R6 (1998).
     
    > 1> If we were to use HIS 2010, is it backwards compatible with ... CICS V1R3?
     
    CICS has supported VTAM, the operating system component which supports SNA, since the mid-1970s. More specifically it has supported the SNA LU types supported by HIS from the time they were invented which in the case of the latest, LU type 6.2, must - straining my memory with uncertain reliability - be sometime in the 1980s.
     
    (Note that, in what I am about to cover I am assuming SNA support. I am assuming that the list Stephen Jackson gave you covers only SNA support. Similar considerations will apply to end-to-end IP-based protocol support but, since I am not familiar with that on the HIS side, I can't comment further.)
     
    The list Stephen Jackson gave you is indeed partial and quite unreliable for the reasons given above. It may happen to correspond to the levels of software which had *maintenance support* from IBM at the time the list was created but is it massively out of date. The latest level of z/OS, for example, is V1R13!
     
    Incidentally, I *thought* that HIS at the latest - I believe - level 2010 would have dropped support from the "DLC" components which were capable of supporting purely a Low Entry Networking (LEN) node appearance and hence could work in conjunction with the communications protocols available with the SNA software available with z/VSE and z/VM. Thus I am amazed to see that these operating systems are mentioned. Conversely, the zSeries operating system zLinux *does* have support for Enterprise Extender and should be present. This list is *most* unreliable!
     
    Incidentally, you may be more familiar with "i5/OS" as the operating system for the AS/400.
     
    Given the general unreliability of information offered by Microsoft sources as it concerns anything to do with the IBM products, you may like, in addition to asking for "Microsoft support", to ask for assistance from an IBM technical source - unless you have the suitable skill available locally in your installation.
     
    Anyhow, if you still need support from this source, please post again and I, from the IBM side, and, I'm sure, Stephen Jackson, from the Microsoft side, will try to help.
     
    Before posting I reviewed the URL Stephen Jackson gave you and that gave rise to the caveat regarding his list. It also confirms what I thought I had remembered that the *only* support for SNA in HIS 2010 is the so-called "IP-DLC Link Service", the SNA APPN node support added as a prerequisite for RFC 2353 (IBM Enterprise Extender) support.
     
    This reminds me that, should you perhaps as a first step removing what I take to be the 3745, perpetually misdescribed as a "front end" processor, converting to the use of zSeries OSA features for IP support together with Enterprise Extender, be aware that the person in your installation managing this will need to arrange that VTAM, the SNA-supporting software component, aka the SNA component of Communications Server, is capable of supporting APPN. This is *not* in general terms a trivial change should a migration from purely legacy "subarea" VTAM/SNA be necessary.
     
    >...> HIS 2000 does not provide an option for SNA applications ... to connect to the mainframe over IP.
     
    Strictly true but note that there has been nothing to stop you for over two decades from supporting apparently LAN traffic - such as would be supported by the "DLC 802.2 Link Service" unavailable from HIS 2010 - using IP routers with "Data Link Switching" (DLSw) capability. Thus what you might be proposing - but didn't actually mention - is to extend the IP support to HIS and VTAM.
     
    Chris Mason
    Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:57 AM
  • After verifying all the details (as much as i udnerstand)..looks like we need to call the consultant from Microsoft & IBM together to verify what the best way is and then accomodeate the recommandation from both.

     

    Is there any third party support thsi kind of issues?

    Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:07 PM
  • Personally, I don't know of any partners that can handle both the HIS and IBM sides of this. I'm sure there are some, but I'm not aware of any.

    You can open a support case with Microsoft to start with as that may be enough to get you going.

    Thanks...

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:58 PM
  • Thanks for the guidance so far.
    Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:34 PM
  • Hi,

    You can find several documents on the net how to set up HIS :

    http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&=tm&id=17441

    http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=17243

    I'm actually plannnig to do an HIS Event at Microsoft Germany how to setup and use HIS. If you are interested please vote for this event on my blog : http://stevemelan.wordpress.com

    Best Regards,


    Steve Melan - BCEE My Blog : http://stevemelan.wordpress.com
    Friday, October 21, 2011 11:35 AM
  • Steve

     

    I *do* hope you'll be including the corrections you will be able to find here:

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/biztalkhis/thread/a9ceca1e-f2a7-4db8-9733-f3664440d20f 

    Chris Mason

    Monday, October 24, 2011 1:58 AM
  • Thanks everybody for your time here.

    From an Applciation perspective, i don't understand the Lu's and its SNA connections to Mainframe.

    Do you know who suppose to know all this thing and understand how it works?

    From An Application perspective do i need to know this?? if yes, how would i get mode exact technical details behind all this configurations....?????

    Monday, October 24, 2011 3:12 PM
  • In working with HIS customers, it is common that the environment is split into the following:

    - Mainframe

    - HIS  Servers

    - Applications

    In general, I find that the HIS Server Admins work with the Mainframe Admins to get the infromation needed to setup the HIS Server (PU and LU information, IP-DLC related information). The HIS Server Admins work with the Applications Teams to make sure that each side has the information they need to get the applications working through HIS.

    If you are only working with the applications, you should not be concerned with the actual connections to the mainframe or how all that works. You'd really only need to know the LU information that your application needs. You'd also need the names/addresses of the HIS Servers so that you could correctly configured the HIS Client if the applications are running on HIS Client systems.

    If you have HIS Server Admins, then they would be the ones to worry about the IP-DLC portion of the setup along the mainframe team.

    Thanks...

     

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:22 PM
    Monday, October 24, 2011 4:11 PM
  • Stephen,

                Is there any test script/test tool that we can use for testing purpose to find out whether out LU Configuration are correct to connect to mainframe??

    i mean is there a step by step process that we can follow to find out what entity is wrong if connection is failing?

    Monday, October 31, 2011 4:47 PM
  • The usual troubleshooting steps on our end is to take a look at the HIS configuration, the application event log, and then possibly traces to see where things might be going wrong.

    If you could indicate what you are seeing at this point, we might be able to narrow the scope down a little.

    Is the mainframe connection in SNA Manager in an Active state?

    What types of LUs (3270, LUa, APPC) are you trying to work with?

    We do include a Diagnostics (display.exe) utility on the Tools menu in SNA Manager that can be used for some testing. The APPC Test option in the tool is useful to seeign if you can establish a LU 6.2 session over the specified Local APPC LU, Remote APPC, APPC Mode. It can also display the status of 3270 LUs, Connections, etc.

    You have only indicated that you were communicating with CICS v1.3 over SNA, but you haven't really indicated if you were using Transaction Integrator or if you have another APPC application that is being used. Some additional details would help.

    Thanks...

     

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    • Marked as answer by Nicksoft2011 Monday, April 16, 2012 8:23 PM
    Monday, October 31, 2011 9:18 PM
  • Nick - I'm still assuming!
     
    > ... if connection is failing?
     
    This indicates that you - or your colleagues - have set something up and it isn't working.
     
    > i mean is there a step by step process that we can follow to find out what entity is wrong if connection is failing?
     
    There's a great deal can go wrong with communications between a HIS node and a z/OS node *if* the somewhat complex underlying environment is not well understood. Thus it is unlikely that it would be possible to create an "if this happens, check that" list.
     
    I suggest you pay attention to Stephen's last post and get the "administrators" or "systems programmers" who understand the HIS environment and the VTAM environment to verify that there is successful communication - by means of a DISPLAY NET,APING[1] command, for example. This command will verify that any SSCP-independent LU communication stands a chance of working. If, on top of the SSCP-independent LU sessions, you run SSCP-dependent sessions with DLUR-DLUS, you will have some assurance at the level of communication between VTAM and HIS when you are able successfully to activate the SSCP-dependent PU and associated SSCP-dependent LUs. The output of a DISPLAY NET,ID=<whatever-name-you-have-selected-for-the-SSCP-dependent-PU-entity>,SCOPE=ALL command.
     
    >...> From an Application perspective, i don't understand the Lu's and its SNA connections to Mainframe.
     
    I suggest you become comfortable with what you say you don't understand here before you try to go any further blindfolded!
     
    -
     
    If you insist on getting help from this list rather than calling in consultants, we are going to need to see all relevant definitions and the results of commands which illustrate how successful or otherwise these definitions have been. These definitions should include the members of VTAM's VTAMLST partitioned data set as well as the key HIS parameters. As far as setting up communication between VTAM and HIS is concerned, you could be guided in knowing which definitions are needed by referring to the following:
     
     
    Be sure to use the second version which has some corrections which may be important.
     
    -
     
     
    -
     
    Chris Mason
    Monday, October 31, 2011 11:35 PM
  • Stephen/Chris,

                      Recently we did DR and failed which requires special attention from infrastructure/admin side, but since i am leading the project trying to figure out How can i manage the resources and assign the task for next time to dentify the issue.

                  I guess your follow up direction is excellent and i am trying to create step by step Test Script to find out the exact issue, so far i have added below 3 steps, pelase let me know if i am mising any thing here:-

    1>    Ping the Production Server IP address where the COMTI component is located to see it is on the network and responding 

    2>    Ping the Mainframe Server from the Production server to see it is on the network and responding 

    3>    Check the SNA manager status whether it is Active or Inactive.

     

    From checking the LU configuration to Mainframe, what other step should i include?

    Also could you provide more detail, how to check what kind of LUs we have? (Most probably we have APPC)

    Also how to utilize the current HIS 2000 utility (using below options) to identify the problem?

    1> 3270 Client

    2> 5250 Client

    3> Host Account Manager

    4> DLC status

    5> SNA modem Monitor

    6> Trace Initiator

    7> Trace Viewer

    8> APPC 3270 Session viewer

    9> Event Viewer

    Tuesday, November 01, 2011 3:09 PM
  • If you are COMTI, then you are using APPC LUs since COMTI either connects to the mainframe via LU 6.2 (using APPC LUs) or via TCP/IP in whcih case the SNA gateway portion of HIS is not used.

    If you want to test to see if you can establish sessions over your APPC LUs, you can use the "APPC 3270 Session Viewer" tool to do this.

    I haven't had HIS 2000 installed in a long time so I had forgotten that we used a different name for the "Diagnostics"utility that I mentioned in my last post.

    Since you have been working on various problems for a long period of time, my best advice at this point is to open a support case with HIS Support as it will allow you to get things working much faster.

    Thanks...

     


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:10 PM
  • Thanks again.

    If we move from LU6.2 to TCP/IP connection, what other configuration change we need to make?

    Also for TCP/IP connection, What tool we should use to test the connection?

    Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:47 PM
  • That is hard to say without more information. A lot of it depends on what COMTI programming modeil that you are currently using. Also, if you go to TCP/IP, it will require changes on the mainframe side as well since you will have to have a TCP/IP listener running.

    You might start with the following documentation:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg162893(v=BTS.70).aspx

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg164835(v=BTS.70).aspx

    The following KB article is dated, but it gives information about the TCP/IP listener that can be used on the mainframe:

    231862 Configuring COMTI to Use TCP/IP Link to CICS Using the Cedar Bank Demo
    http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;231862

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT
    Friday, November 04, 2011 8:18 PM
  • Stephen,

                  Thank you for all your assistance. As per guidance...we are creating Windows 2008/ HIS 2006 environemnt to test TCP/IP communication to mainframe.

                  Any recommandation as far as the Configuration goes???? (I mean OS/HIS configuration/Other Tools/ settings) so we stay on track for new HIS 2010/2012 and so on.......

               Please assist as per your convinience.

    Thanks,

    Nick

    Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:14 PM
  • Nick,

    The bad news here is that HIS 2006 is not supported on Windows Server 2008, Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows Vista or Windows 7.

    You may be able to get it to work, but we did have to make code changes in the product to make it compatible with these OS versions. The work was extensive enough that it was done for the HIS 2009 release and the changes were not backported to HIS 2006. If you need to run on this platform, I would suggest that you make the jump to HIS 2010 at this point.

    Mainstream support for HIS 2006 ends in April so we will not be doing any new fixes for HIS 2006 after that time unless it is a security fix or unless an extended support contract is purchased.

    Thanks...


    Stephen Jackson - MSFT

    Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:21 PM