How do I remove Metro in Windows 8 in the Consumer Preview and bring back the Start Menu? Part 2

You are likely right but by that measure Vista was a great success. It sold hundreds of millions of copies in new PCs!! However, it brought Microsoft to its knees.

I'm not sure that comparing Windows Vista to Windows 8 is that good of an idea. In my opinion, Windows Vista was a great OS (one of the best ones Microsoft ever made), but it was launched before it was ready and had poor developer support.

Tomorrow is the last day of mainstream support for Windows Vista, and while I'm not happy about there not being any more updates for Vista besides security updates, the truth is that Windows Vista today is rock-solid, stable, and more reliable than the RTM version that launched in 2007.

I agree with you in terms of the engineering of Vista. I thought that it was a solid OS that worked excellently when the appropriate drivers and adequate hardware were in place. I utilized Vista in multiple computers since its release and I never thought of downgrading back to Windows XP. However, despite Vista's technical excellence, the stability problems in the beginning undermined its popularity and gave quite an opening to Apple and OSX. It was a disaster for Microsoft on many levels.

Win8 may or may not be rejected in the same manner. Nobody really knows. Much of the press and certainly all the OEMs want Win8 to succeed for a variety of reasons. The pundits see Win8 as the vindication of their position that we are in the post-PC era. Major marketing firms are making strong predictions that the PC market will shrink dramatically and PC prices will increase as fewer and fewer of them would be sold. The OEMs need Win8 to succeed because they need to provide a justification to consumers to buy new PCs and tablets. Thus, whatever the problems of any new OS from Microsoft, there are enough commercial partners to push it successfully.

The momentum of portable OSes is such that Microsoft does not get to be red-faced for producing a version of Windows that does not do windows; the press is even applauding such a decision. We have reached a point in time in which computing has gotten so widespread that it needs to be dumped down. It may be true that the average consumer does not need a PC for just surfing the net and composing a simple email (which most of them do). However, Microsoft's attempt to limit the potential damage to its revenues by jerry-rigging a portable OS on top of Windows seems to me a ridiculous solution. The problem called for a portable OS, not a desktop OS transmuted to a portable one. My feeling is that Microsoft felt that it could not compete on that basis and that it needed to utilize its dominance on the desktop to force the adoption of its portable OS. In the process, bulldozing "geeks" did not present too much of a problem.

Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:15 PM

I don't understand... Why does it look like I started this thread 6 days ago, and it has a few posts from the middle of that other thread, yet ignores the entire conversation of the past week?

Ronnie Vernon - may I suggest when you make new threads that you just go ahead and start them out blank. This doesn't seem to make much sense as it is.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBook:
In development:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Monday, April 16, 2012 2:31 AM

Actually, why not just leave the big threads alone and let them grow?

Ronnie seems to be doing this lock/start new thing at roughly 100 posts, and frankly I don't have any response time issues with 100 post threads any more. I've even opened a few with more than 400 lately (those do get a bit slow).

If people really, REALLY want to participate in a particular thread, they'll wait. As more and more folks find the response time unreasonable they'll just move on and create other threads about what they want to talk about.

If lots and lots of people complain to Microsoft that the forums don't work well, then maybe Microsoft will fix the script issues that cause them to be unresponsive.

If peoples' computers are too slow to run the forum scripts, well, then they'll buy new systems, complete with a fresh Windows licenses. Microsoft certainly couldn't complain about that.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBook:
In development:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Monday, April 16, 2012 6:52 PM

Thanks to those folks that posted info about Classicshell. Getting rid of Metro makes Windows 8 really shine, something that Metro effectively hides. It's fast, smooth and (so far) stable. Classicshell makes Windows 8 worth using.

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Edited by SteveinSeattle Monday, April 16, 2012 6:54 PM

Monday, April 16, 2012 9:38 PM

Yet I've seen you respond to 100+ post threads.

But hey, who cares? It's not like we're uncovering important new information about Windows 8 at this point in post 105 of these long threads. It's all turned into opinions and guesses about the future at this point.

And yes, Steve, ClassicShell turns Windows 8 around a good bit. That, plus I've found that a lot of other tweaks I have documented for Windows 7 also work for Windows 8. With a great deal of effort Windows 8 can be made almost as good as Windows 7.

But I'm challenged to find anything actually better about it that compels one to upgrade. There seem to have been some minor bug-fixes, but generally speaking even some of the obvious big bugs (like Explorer windows that fail to update after file operations) still exist. Oh, and they rewrote Task Manager (big wow). Hard to imagine they've kept 10,000 engineers busy for years on this.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBook:
In development:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Monday, April 16, 2012 11:40 PM

Steve, ClassicShell turns Windows 8 around a good bit. That, plus I've found that a lot of other tweaks I have documented for Windows 7 also work for Windows 8. With a great deal of effort Windows 8 can be made almost as good as Windows 7.

But I'm challenged to find anything actually better about it that compels one to upgrade. There seem to have been some minor bug-fixes, but generally speaking even some of the obvious big bugs (like Explorer windows that fail to update after file operations) still exist. Oh, and they rewrote Task Manager (big wow). Hard to imagine they've kept 10,000 engineers busy for years on this.

-Noel

We are in agreement. My guess is that reconciling the desktop (win32) and portable (WinRT) elements of this OS took some effort. They did come up with a whole new OS that was glued to Win7 to create Win8. It was certainly a substantial effort. Yes, many things have remained the same. IE 10 is hardly different from IE9 for the desktop but IE 10 for WinRT is a new program. Then, obviously coding parts of the Office for WoA would certainly have taken a lot of effort. Many of the Metro/WinRT apps are very limited and look unfinished.

As I said before, Microsoft itself does not expect anybody to really upgrade from Win7 to Win8. In their projections, the revenue from upgrades hardly figures in at all. They do expect to sell a lot more Win7 licenses even after Win8 comes out because corporate adoption of Win7 is continuing. Thus, how much market size Win8 would gain is anybody's estimate. Win Vista, which was a disappointment, finally achieved a 15% market size. My guess is that if Win8 does worse than this, then it would be a great flop.

Market research companies expect Microsoft to capture 8% of the tablet market by the end of 2013 and only about 14% of the market by 2016. For these modest revenue projections, Microsoft is undermining Windows with this poorly finished OS.

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:37 AM

i am on my netbook but i have 8 on a hyper-v vm. if it is available on an arm based tablet it will be fine

x86 is pointless for a tablet

even my atom cpu needs 6 w of power

Windows MVP 2010-11, XP, Vista, 7. Expanding into Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server, SharePoint, Cloud, Virtualization etc. etc.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:49 AM

. . . I'm not sure that comparing Windows Vista to Windows 8 is that good of an idea. In my opinion, Windows Vista was a great OS (one of the best ones Microsoft ever made), but it was launched before it was ready and had poor developer support.

. . .the truth is that Windows Vista today is rock-solid, stable, and more reliable than the RTM version that launched in 2007.

Glad to read that I am not the only person who feels the same way.

Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:19 PM

would love it if anyone finds a new registry entry or policy to bring back start menu. Im not afraid much to stay with windows 7 if windows 8 fails because I found many people say if windows 8 was even put on a tablet they would use android and ipad but android more. I have used androids and ipads and I can say they are very stable at the moment so microsoft would be coming in late to this race if they tryed to. But I kind of stopped talking about it much. Okay maybe i will stop. Noel I kind of would like the metro ui to be closer to windows phone 7 which is still a lot more stable if they were going to throw this metro load on us because then kinect integretation would make a lot easier to use. Personally I think in current stage it still acts a little bit like a cheaper html 5 implementation which 1-2 people could have probably written if we were talking about stability.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda. Blog - http://jefferycarlsonblog.blogspot.com/

Edited by The Thinker Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:27 PM

Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:23 PM

A note to those considering Windows 8 with ClassicShell on an older PC: For some reason Microsoft has removed many older hardware drivers that are present by default in Windows 7. Instead generic drivers are installed for video, sound, power, etc., and those generic drivers are terrible - they heavily load the CPU instead of using the sound chip or video processor. Most power management features were also disabled on my installation. So far all Vista and above drivers I've installed on my Thinkpad work just fine on Windows 8.

Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:50 PM

A note to those considering Windows 8 with ClassicShell on an older PC: For some reason Microsoft has removed many older hardware drivers that are present by default in Windows 7. Instead generic drivers are installed for video, sound, power, etc., and those generic drivers are terrible - they heavily load the CPU instead of using the sound chip or video processor. Most power management features were also disabled on my installation. So far all Vista and above drivers I've installed on my Thinkpad work just fine on Windows 8.

How long do should we expect Microsoft to support old drivers for outdated hardware? The driver model changes just like any other software which means they have to go back and update those old drivers. Eventually they have to make a decision to not update specific drivers where only very little people will use them. It's not worth the time to update those drivers. They may lump these devices into a generic driver but they will not be optimized. The best bet is to not update to W8 on those machines with that old hardware.

It makes perfect sense old hardware gets outdated and becomes unsupported hardware. Unsupported hardware doesn't get updated drivers.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Edited by Bobby J Cannon Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:50 PM

Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:53 PM

. . . I'm not sure that comparing Windows Vista to Windows 8 is that good of an idea. In my opinion, Windows Vista was a great OS (one of the best ones Microsoft ever made), but it was launched before it was ready and had poor developer support.

. . .the truth is that Windows Vista today is rock-solid, stable, and more reliable than the RTM version that launched in 2007.

Glad to read that I am not the only person who feels the same way.

It's because Microsoft does continue to support their software years after it's released. People can give them grief all they want but they have to give them props when it comes to their product support. Who else do you know in the industry is still supporting software that's over 10 years old?

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:53 PM

I'm not sure that comparing Windows Vista to Windows 8 is that good of an idea. In my opinion, Windows Vista was a great OS (one of the best ones Microsoft ever made), but it was launched before it was ready and had poor developer support.

Tomorrow is the last day of mainstream support for Windows Vista, and while I'm not happy about there not being any more updates for Vista besides security updates, the truth is that Windows Vista today is rock-solid, stable, and more reliable than the RTM version that launched in 2007.

I dunno… I think the problem with developer support with Vista was the fact that Microsoft did something that was highly needed (from a security and reliability POV) - moving drivers from Kernel mode to User mode. Unfortunately, a LOT of developers didn't like the idea. Many actively resisted. (Cough-HP-Cough-Creative-Cough)

I know, for instance, my HP Color LaserJet 1600 printer's Vista driver set took like 9 months after Vista's release before HP got off their collective duffs and produced a working set. HP's support department didn't even acknowledge that Vista's betas existed. I know - I called them and asked them for information on some beta drivers for my printer. The tech played stupid. "What's Vista? Never heard of it." HP's general excuse - Vista was changing too rapidly for them to keep up with their driver model. I dunno. From what I saw of Vista's beta versions and the RC versions, the whole concept was pretty much stabilized already. There weren't THAT many dramatic changes in the OS.

Creative, IIRC, also had some funky hacks in XP for some of their higher end audio cards that only worked in Kernel mode. Vista's increased security put the kibosh on that kind of thing.

Also, IIRC, Vista's beta cycle came not too long after Microsoft got spanked in court. There was a certain aire of rebelliousness after the DOJ ruling.

BUT, even then, I think Vista could have been made better out of the gate. Unfortunately, time was running out. Microsoft HAD to release something. There were too many Software Assurance contracts that would not have been renewed had Microsoft failed to release something before the end of the year.

Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:49 AM

Who else do you know in the industry is still supporting software that's over 10 years old?

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

AMD and Intel.

So quit making excuses for why you abandon your customer base.

So by your logic, Windows 8 should run on an 8088 based system. Seriously... There are some people out there STILL running those dinosaurs.

There comes a time when yes, it's appropriate to abandon older hardware and move on to something new - and even if it's not bleeding edge, newer will do.

FWIW... Most software companies support the current version and maybe one or two prior versions of their software. Even Apple cuts older, yet still viable hardware off if it's past a certain age - and yet, they seem to be able to get away with "abandoning" their fan base... The current versions of their OS no longer support PowerPC chips - they've gone all Intel. And yet, you can still find older OSX boxes with PowerPC chips floating around on the market that still work. Search eBay. There's like 6 pages worth of listings as of this writing.

Sometimes it's a good thing to relegate the older hardware to the status of boat anchor and move on...

Thursday, April 19, 2012 3:24 AM

Now that the three versions have been confirmed, I wonder what the initial desktop will look like on the retail desktop version, and if RC will reflect it.

mumbling aimlessly,

ITunes and my Canon scanner are unsupported in my current Retail OS (xp64) but work great in Windows 8. ITunes has some nice person going around telling everyone how to install it manually so it actually Will work on XP64.

Abandon, vs. too cheap to hire the consultant who wrote the driver several years back. I suppose he's in demand now and wants more money, hmm

I think scanner companies must love new versions of Windows "abandon all old scanners ye who enter here".

My written words carry an unintended emphasis (because they're written). I hope I misspelled something.

Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:59 AM

drivers can be very hard to develop, Vista and up all use the same basic driver model with simple revisions

my old HP 648C printer still works fine and it works with DOS and up, including Windows 8

other components are more recent and also work ok

some programs will be at issue, but I suspect vendors will look to sell new versions once they have finished developing it

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7. Expanding into Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server, SharePoint, Cloud, Virtualization etc. etc.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Sunday, June 10, 2012 5:47 AM

Sorry, I have to say Metro is awful, jarring and annoying. In the movie minority report they had to hold Tom Crusie's arms up with wires because even with editing people can't comfortably hold their arms horizontal. So lets be straight metro is for tablets, which is fine. However, forcing me to use Metro and the new start menu on a PC is insane. I'd rather move to UNIX than to a Windows where Metro is forced on me. Not only won't I buy it, I'll tell my friends and family not to and that they are SOL if they want computer help.

In fairness, nobody I know wants Metro, they find it far more confusing than windows and the switch to the "new" start screen is jarring. I already have a tablet, I prefer to use a PC because of the flexibility... Metro takes that away.

Besides on my test laptop the Dev preview worked as well as Metro ever will... the consumer version fails to install no matter what I do. Since I have too reinstall, I may as well install something that lets me run my computer the way I want. So, given that MS is forcing me to choose, what version of Linux do you recommend?

Edited by Bladehawk Sunday, June 10, 2012 5:51 AM

Sunday, June 10, 2012 8:21 AM

Start Menu isn't coming back thanks to the evil people in the Windows team. Best bet is to install Classic Shell which can give you this:

Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:28 PM

Where did you find that classic shell installer?

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7. Expanding into Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server, SharePoint, Cloud, Virtualization etc. etc.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Monday, June 11, 2012 11:56 AM

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

Where did you find that classic shell installer?

vjj

Monday, June 11, 2012 4:08 PM

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

I installed ClassicShell for Windows 8 testing and book development, and I liked it so much I've now switched my Windows 7 system to use it, replacing the stock Windows 7 Start Menu. Yes, ClassicShell is that good!

It also has several secondary components for returning several needed features back to IE and Explorer's UIs as well. Ivo Beltchev is a talented and brilliant software developer who knows what computer users need from Windows components better than Microsoft itself does.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:09 AM

What about the start and reboot time on Vista?

It is atrocious compared to Windows 7 (dual boot setup)

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:06 AM

Answerer

What about the start and reboot time on Vista?

It is atrocious compared to Windows 7 (dual boot setup)

analysze and optimize the boot /shutdown times with xbootmgr. My Vista starts as fast as Windows 7 ;)

"A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:09 PM

I have some VMs with a clean install of XP, Vista, 7 and 8. XP They all start up fast and all take about the same amount of time to stabilize.

Vista and up are faster to react to an event compared to XP but adding more load will adversely affect the time to finish the startup.

Drivers will slow the boot, so will add the crap in the autorun

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7. Expanding into Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server, SharePoint, Cloud, Virtualization etc. etc.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:59 AM

For the record, I have ranted myself out since the MetroUI started rearing its ugly head, thus, I will try to only make quick PERSONAL comments.

I REALLYDISLIKE the Desktop replacement that is MetroUI, that being said, on the older Win8 version where you COULD disable MetroUI, it also disabled the new TaskManager and OTHER features I actually liked so:

Dear Massivesoft: Make sure Win8 Final has the OPTION at least, for the classic Desktop/StartMenu

I stayed on XP till Win7 came out, I was on Windows Phone 5, 6, 6.5, and 6.5.x (when they came out with the BIRTH of changing the UI, with the Honeycomb "tile" like start-menu), when WP7 came out, I gave it a go, but I am not into sitting in my bathroom or kitchen looking at Tiles all day, it was NEVER "hip to be a SQUARE", that much HASNT changed (no matter what shape you stretch the SQUARE to), so I have moved on to Android.

Seeing a Pattern anyone?

Win8: Not looking good; Win7: Great!; Vista: *shudders*; XP: could still rule the roost if it wasnt left by the wayside; WinME: only OS I know of that MSFT basically admits was a disaster; Win98SE: for me and the people I did the setup's for and fixed, was WONDERFUL!; Win98: gave me issues, enough to send me back to; Win95: great GEM of an OS; with nothing between, or before (that contains my experience at least besides DOS), its the ONLY instance of the chain thats been BROKEN because I loved my first GUI system with Win3.11!!!

With that ladies and gents, my personal feelings are out in the open, dislike, or like away!

Edited by EMPulseGaming Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:02 AM

Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:00 PM

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

I REALLYDISLIKE the Desktop replacement that is MetroUI

Thanks for adding your opinions, EMPG. It sounds like much the same story played over and over: Some (many?) really dislike it, almost no one is ambivalent about it, and some really like it. I don't think that's a good mix.

There will be a second round of "hate mail" if once the Windows 8 release sees the light of day Microsoft hasn't included a critical mass of funtionality enabling people to actually get work done, because - hype from Microsoft executives aside - people with computers DO want to upgrade to it.

Will the serious computing world survive by running Windows 7 for an extra couple of years? Probably. Would it have been nice to have an even more functional operating system to upgrade to? Absolutely.

In my opinion Microsoft is doing no less than single-handedly holding the advance of computing technology back.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Edited by Noel CarboniMicrosoft Community Contributor Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:02 PM typo

Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:07 PM

Windows 7 is good until 2020 so if you do not like the Metro UI, use 7

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:14 PM

Windows 7 is good until 2020 so if you do not like the Metro UI, use 7

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

It all depends. Win7 is only good for a couple of years after the release of Win8. Yes, there is support until 2020 but this would be limited to security upgrades.

However, Microsoft is walking down a very dangerous road, very dangerous, indeed. Now, that it has also hardware out there running WinRT, MS has no other choice than gear all its development to support WinRT, which means the abandonment of Win32. Thus, I would not expect any of its "essentials" to be upgraded any more for Win32. Only the WinRT versions will go forward. The same is going to happen with other programs. Independent of how successful WinRT is going to be, I expect that Microsoft developers will switch their efforts there, abandoning Win32. For example, the now orphaned WinPhone 7.x, although it only managed 1.5% of market share, still managed to have something like 100,000 applications (which nobody is using).

For example, when Microsoft abandoned WinMobile 6.x for WinPhone 7.x, development for WinMobile ceased although Microsoft then enjoyed >20% market share for that OS. Thus, irrespective of where Win7 stands today, if Microsoft orphans it (and it has), development for Win32 will cease. So, no Win7 is not good until 2020, not unless the WinRT, Surface, Metro experiment fails and Microsoft decides to focus on its desktop OSes.

With Microsoft having made such a play in tablets (gearing up to produce millions of these will cost tens of billions and it would require an expansion of its retail presence), it needs to bury Win32 as soon as possible.

Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:09 AM

I REALLYDISLIKE the Desktop replacement that is MetroUI

Thanks for adding your opinions, EMPG. It sounds like much the same story played over and over: Some (many?) really dislike it, almost no one is ambivalent about it, and some really like it. I don't think that's a good mix.

There will be a second round of "hate mail" if once the Windows 8 release sees the light of day Microsoft hasn't included a critical mass of funtionality enabling people to actually get work done, because - hype from Microsoft executives aside - people with computers DO want to upgrade to it.

Will the serious computing world survive by running Windows 7 for an extra couple of years? Probably. Would it have been nice to have an even more functional operating system to upgrade to? Absolutely.

In my opinion Microsoft is doing no less than single-handedly holding the advance of computing technology back.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

You keep repeating that you cannot do "serious computing" or "be productive" but you are just being ridiculous. No change in W8 has hinder productivity. You don't like the new start screen or metro we get it. However that doesn't stop you from using your computer the same way you have always had minus having to use the metro start screen. Get over it and stop spreading your FUD about how you cannot be productive in W8.

Just like combining the "search bar" in Internet Explorer didn't hinder searching. I found a thread where you were saying how combining the search input with the address bar was so terrible. Just silly. It's just makes sense.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:21 AM

Start Menu isn't coming back thanks to the evil people in the Windows team. Best bet is to install Classic Shell which can give you this:

Woot! It's not like it matters. You have the start screen to START your applications.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Edited by Bobby J Cannon Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:21 AM

Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:07 AM

You keep repeating that you cannot do "serious computing" or "be productive" but you are just being ridiculous. No change in W8 has hinder productivity. You don't like the new start screen or metro we get it. However that doesn't stop you from using your computer the same way you have always had minus having to use the metro start screen. Get over it and stop spreading your FUD about how you cannot be productive in W8.

Just like combining the "search bar" in Internet Explorer didn't hinder searching. I found a thread where you were saying how combining the search input with the address bar was so terrible. Just silly. It's just makes sense.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

I think that productivity depends on individual needs and perceptions. In any case, here you are in the minority, as many reviewers commented on issues that inhibit productivity in W8. In any enterprise, introducing W8 would require substantial training and this would definitely lead to increased expenses and reduction of productivity. The additional training would only bring somebody to the same level of productivity with W7. There is nothing in W8 that could possibly increase productivity. We can talk for hours about the way that the Start Screen inhibits normal desktop flow, but it would be lost to you. And although it inhibits normal desktop flow, it does not offer anything that can be regarded to be as an advance in the state of computing. The bolting of a portable OS that is actually inferior to other portable OSes is not an advance. It is simply weird.

Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:20 AM

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Bobby, my post wasn't really negative and I mean no disrespect but I believe your definition of "getting work done" and mine differ.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Edited by Noel CarboniMicrosoft Community Contributor Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:22 AM

Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:26 AM

Noel, no point arguing with Bobby Cannon. He's that hopeless case of fanboy+inability to discuss anything objectively. He just has his rigid subjective opinion. Majority of the world is wrong and he's right. Time to get out of this forum, it's a waste of time anyways as MS doesn't actually listen to feedback, they do very successfully create the illusion that they listen.

Sunday, June 24, 2012 5:36 AM

Noel, no point arguing with Bobby Cannon. He's that hopeless case of fanboy+inability to discuss anything objectively. He just has his rigid subjective opinion. Majority of the world is wrong and he's right. Time to get out of this forum, it's a waste of time anyways as MS doesn't actually listen to feedback, they do very successfully create the illusion that they listen.

Corporations the size of Microsoft only listen to the financial results of each quarter. Strategies are set, analyses have been performed, projections have been made; the marketing guys are getting ready to implement these strategies. No corporation the size of Microsoft is likely to listen to a dedicated group of consumers when internal projections, policy papers and marketing analyses point otherwise. Of course, all these confirm the wisdom of the decisions of the executive team (they always do).

Sunday, June 24, 2012 1:30 PM

All listed companies also have a board of directors that represent shareholders

Mind you they often abrogate their responsibility

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Sunday, June 24, 2012 3:41 PM

Bobby, my post wasn't really negative and I mean no disrespect but I believe your definition of "getting work done" and mine differ.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

I don't doubt that we do define "getting work done" differently. I never take anyone post here as disrespecting. Even if some post are. Life is too short to worry what other think.

I have my opinions based on the facts. I don't base any of my comments or opinions on "feelings".

I admit that I am a fan of Microsoft. I don't always agree with their direction and I dislike some of their product A LOT! SharePoint and Internet Explorer are on my "please never make me use these" list. Overall though they are the best software company in the world. No one has reached their level of success when it comes to software. As a software developer I couldn't imagine having a better company to build my career with.

I have yet to find one change to Windows that I don't like. None of the changes have messed with my productivity. All of the changes have added functionality to my mobile devices (laptop and tablets) while also breathing fresh air into my desktop. Windows 8 have been so fun to use on all my devices. Now I will admit they're things that must be polished before going gold but I have faith that other don't have. I have no doubt that Microsoft will have those things worked out before RTM.

People say I'm paid off, bribed, or whatever crazy comments they feel like saying. The bottom line is that in MY opinion Windows 8 has only gotten better and I'm looking forward to it's release.

What I don't understand is why people cannot realize that if they don't like W8 and the direction that it's only their opinion. Just because you or someone else may not like it doesn't mean Microsoft is making a "bad" decision. Just like my opinion doesn't mean they are making a good decision. We will have to wait and see how the "world" reacts before you can call it a success or failure. In other words "time will tell" until then it's only our opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:11 PM

What I don't understand is why people cannot realize that if they don't like W8 and the direction that it's only their opinion. Just because you or someone else may not like it doesn't mean Microsoft is making a "bad" decision. Just like my opinion doesn't mean they are making a good decision. We will have to wait and see how the "world" reacts before you can call it a success or failure. In other words "time will tell" until then it's only our opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course it is their opinion...did anybody claim that he/she has a direct line to the truth and God??? What you do not like is people expressing these opinions. It was like the good old days of Mac fanboys who would tirelessly attack anybody who dared criticize Apple. Now, you fulfill this function for Microsoft. Listen, criticism is valid. You should hear the opinions expressed as they represent real user input. You may not like them, but they are what they are. In fact, they are more valid than those of a person highly schooled in Windows.

People do not like re-learning skills that they had 20-odd years to perfect. And this would be, I think, Microsoft's downfall in this case. Microsoft is asking users to forgo skills of using an interface for 20 or more years for something which, to everybody's evaluation, is neither better nor does it advance the state of computing. If a user learns of the new methodologies of Win8, well, then he will be as productive as he was before!!!! Is this a good deal??? Lots of training, lots to learn, and at the end you are no better than before.!!! You are doing all this to accommodate Microsoft's marketing.

It is really nonsensical for you to support the notion that the Start Screen is an advance in the state of desktop computing. By universal acclaim, it is not. Would it usable in tablets? Only the future would tell. But it is really an unmitigated disaster in the desktop. Even those who gave somewhat "favorable" reviews to Win8, concluded that the Start Screen is an impediment.

You would be amazed how many users would be willing to venture into a new interface if it promises real advances in the state of computing. If our tasks become appreciably faster, if the programs become more intelligent (and this is what I am interested in), if interacting with the hardware becomes more efficient, and all this necessitates a new interface, then, yes, by all means, bring it on. But going through the hoops just to help Microsoft sell tablets is not my idea of what I would like to do. Maybe it is for you!!!

Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:56 PM

What you do not like is people expressing these opinions.

It is really nonsensical for you to support the notion that the Start Screen is an advance in the state of desktop computing.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. I love hearing peoples opinion even if it's against the changes to Windows. What I don't like is people running around claiming that all is lost because Microsoft isn't doing what they "think" is best and that the "advance computing" world will end because of it. That some how the removal of the start menu has killed off productive computing. Just ridiculous. It's one thing to say "I don't like the new start screen" but it's a whole other thing to claim the new start screen will kill productivity. Simple put the facts are that the start screen is different and will not hurt productivity.

Now about the start screen. Not once have I claimed that the start screen has advanced the state of desktop computing. What I have claimed is that it has hurt or helped DESKTOP computing. My claim has always been that it's just different on the desktop. It's help a TON on both laptops (touch screen like X220t) and tablets. My claim is that it advanced the start of the art for Windows in general without hurting the desktop experience. Others disagree but this is my opinion for I had no problems using the new start screen on my desktops. Not only do I enjoy using it but I've personal lost no functionality. Now search has been degraded and I hope they improve on it but I'm a very organized person. Rarely do I ever need search so this may be why I've not lost anything.

To end just be clear that I always want to hear people opinions even if I disagree. Not only do I value others opinion but I think it's CRUCIAL for Microsoft. I think yours and others opinions are so important to the success of W8 and in Microsoft in general. However I if someone says something so ridiculous as the end of "advance computing" as we know it is over all because of the start menu change to the start screen I'm going to have to comment. It's just so obviously silly that someone has to be the voice of reason.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

Edited by Bobby J Cannon Monday, June 25, 2012 12:23 PM

Monday, June 25, 2012 12:28 AM

Metro does not bother me. I just ignore it.

Most of my test Windows 8/Server 2012 have the Classic Shell installed but I could learn to live without it.

I have links to my most used applications on my desktop. I have Toolbars for Favorites, Desktop, Links and Quick Launch. If I don't have Classic Shell I also put a Programs Toolbar.

Apps? I don't have much use for them. I tried a few but mainly I don't see the point. I guess they might make sense on a small screen touchpad.

Monday, June 25, 2012 12:38 AM

To end just be clear that I always want to hear people opinions even if I disagree. Not only do I value others opinion but I think it's CRUCIAL for Microsoft. I think yours and others opinions are so important to the success of W8 and in Microsoft in general. However I if someone says something so ridiculous as the end of "advance computing" as we know it is over all because of the start menu change to the start screen I'm going to have to comment. It's just so obviously silly that someone has to be the voice of reason.

Thanks,
Bobby Cannon
BobbyCannon.com

I have never claimed that the Start Screen per se is the "end of advanced computing". What I have claimed is that Microsoft's move to WinRT/Metro is move away from advanced computing. I do not know how you can argue this point. WinRT is a mobile OS with al the limitations of a mobile OS. It is a non-windowing, limiting multitasking, sparse screen information OS. Thus, the Start Screen, although a bother on its own, is not a critical problem. But switching programming resources from Win32 to WinRT is a major threat to advanced computing, this is certain. Yes, Microsoft's own resources and independent programmers may start churning out apps that would be no different from those in iOS and Android...the world is certainly not going to stand still for a Win8 version of Twitter or Instagram. I understand that Microsoft wants to sell its phones and its tablets, but this is not in alignment with progressing the state of the art in computing. OK, we would have a 3rd player in the portable OS race, but do we even care at this point? Is there something that WinRT does, that is not done well in Android or iOS? I do not think so.

If Microsoft had decided to leave portable OSes well alone and work to provide their integration into Windows (allowing iOS and Android apps to run as windowing tasks in the desktop), seriously advance the state of computing by taking advantage of all the cores, the large monitors, the SSDs that are now proliferating and provide an OS and a programming base that would have allowed for much more intelligent and more powerful programs, then, it would have not only my attention but the attention of the computing world. Yes, it may have had to forgo mobile computing, but desktop/laptop computing is not going away. It is now chasing Apple's shadow and this would not end up well.

Monday, June 25, 2012 12:54 AM

time will tell how well windows 8 is picked up in the market place

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Monday, June 25, 2012 5:03 AM

time will tell how well windows 8 is picked up in the market place

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

Of course. Only time would tell. I do not forget that Microsoft has its OEM agreements and lots of Win8 will be pushed to new purchasers of new computers. By that measure, even Vista was a success.

Monday, June 25, 2012 5:37 AM

@Brian Borg, you should also realize that just because Classic Shell is free and already available as a high quality replacement, you shouldn't lower your expectations from MS to provide a usable, productive, fully-functional desktop UI. Ivo and I, had to work extremely hard to create Classic Shell, to discover various means of bringing back removed functionality, to check with whatever APIs it was feasible or not, and it's a long term commitment requiring high quality work. To the end user, the attitude may be that Classic Shell's a quick hack job and as long as that works, why bother whatever MS does. But in subsequent releases of Windows, MS may remove move even more towards Metro and break whatever again and we may not be able to fix it. My point is: that just because Classic Shell is there, your attitude should not be that "Metro doesn't bother me". You should still expect a usable and customizable interface from Microsoft and beat your drum loudly about it to them to let them know your feedback as a loyal customer of Windows for years before Metro came along to kill parts of the old shell.

Monday, June 25, 2012 2:14 PM

@Brian Borg, you should also realize that just because Classic Shell is free and already available as a high quality replacement, you shouldn't lower your expectations from MS to provide a usable, productive, fully-functional desktop UI. Ivo and I, had to work extremely hard to create Classic Shell, to discover various means of bringing back removed functionality, to check with whatever APIs it was feasible or not, and it's a long term commitment requiring high quality work. To the end user, the attitude may be that Classic Shell's a quick hack job and as long as that works, why bother whatever MS does. But in subsequent releases of Windows, MS may remove move even more towards Metro and break whatever again and we may not be able to fix it. My point is: that just because Classic Shell is there, your attitude should not be that "Metro doesn't bother me". You should still expect a usable and customizable interface from Microsoft and beat your drum loudly about it to them to let them know your feedback as a loyal customer of Windows for years before Metro came along to kill parts of the old shell.

I 'd like to second this. I have said it before and I 'll say it again that the current Start Screen, although inconvenient, is hardly a key concern. The main concern, I think, is the direction Microsoft is going, giving primacy to the portable OS (WinRT) while de-emphasizing the desktop (Win32). I know that some here would claim aloud that this is not happening, but come on!!! it is quite obvious. The company sees itself mainly in the portable market and and does not believe that the desktop is something it needs to worry about anymore.

I think that the future would show that Microsoft is mistaken, but the mindset now is concentrating on chasing the iPad and nothing much else.

Monday, June 25, 2012 8:01 PM

@Brian Borg, you should also realize that just because Classic Shell is free and already available as a high quality replacement, you shouldn't lower your expectations from MS to provide a usable, productive, fully-functional desktop UI. Ivo and I, had to work extremely hard to create Classic Shell, to discover various means of bringing back removed functionality, to check with whatever APIs it was feasible or not, and it's a long term commitment requiring high quality work. To the end user, the attitude may be that Classic Shell's a quick hack job and as long as that works, why bother whatever MS does. But in subsequent releases of Windows, MS may remove move even more towards Metro and break whatever again and we may not be able to fix it. My point is: that just because Classic Shell is there, your attitude should not be that "Metro doesn't bother me". You should still expect a usable and customizable interface from Microsoft and beat your drum loudly about it to them to let them know your feedback as a loyal customer of Windows for years before Metro came along to kill parts of the old shell.

I guess I was not being clear. I was not trying to stress the usefulness of Clasic Shell.

I was just trying to say that I can learn to live with Metro.

I have not liked what Microsoft has done with the look and feel of Windows for the last ten years. But I have continued to use Windows.

I never used Vista, but when I started using Server 2008 I kind of had no choice. Luckily Windows 7 and Server 2008R2 came out shortly after. I found them significantly less obnoxious than Vista.

I do not think that Microsoft will start providing only locked down, unconfigurable editions of Windows, even though there seem to be parts of Microsoft that want to force a new UI down our throats.

Monday, June 25, 2012 8:21 PM

@Brian Borg, I get your point of view. :) But by purchasing a product that includes Metro and only choosing to use the desktop, you are indirectly helping Microsoft increase the market share of their product whose UI you don't like. It's wise to stay with Windows XP or Windows 7 in this situation. Especially when Windows 8 removes a lot o Windows 7 desktop features too. (There is nothing wrong with XP either unlike all the FUD they spread). Whether to support Classic Shell on Windows 8 at all or not was a consideration given the other regressions to the Windows shell again for the third time in a row (Vista, W7, W8), but then it is a last resort emergency solution for those poor souls who don't know how to reinstall an OS and are stuck with Windows 8, and can't be as productive.

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:27 AM

@Brian Borg, I get your point of view. :) But by purchasing a product that includes Metro and only choosing to use the desktop, you are indirectly helping Microsoft increase the market share of their product whose UI you don't like. It's wise to stay with Windows XP or Windows 7 in this situation. Especially when Windows 8 removes a lot o Windows 7 desktop features too. (There is nothing wrong with XP either unlike all the FUD they spread). Whether to support Classic Shell on Windows 8 at all or not was a consideration given the other regressions to the Windows shell again for the third time in a row (Vista, W7, W8), but then it is a last resort emergency solution for those poor souls who don't know how to reinstall an OS and are stuck with Windows 8, and can't be as productive.

There is little doubt that the sales of Win8 would drive Microsoft's move to WinRT. If Win8 is successful, more and more of Microsoft's efforts would be directed to the portable OS (WinRT).

I think that most current users and most enterprises would not upgrade to Win8. I think that Microsoft expects this. What they are planning is to have their OEMs flood the channel of new PCs with Win8. Typically, MS sells about 350 million Win licenses a year. Of course, many of these licenses would be Vista and 7 (mostly to corporations). But many would be Win8. Microsoft thinks that consumers, buying new computers will drive Win8 adoption even in the enterprise. I am not sure at all about this. To the degree that consumers would request downgrades to 7, the Microsoft effort may fail.

Edited by ADRz Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:41 AM

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:34 AM

My intelligence dept has suggested Windows 8 is now about 3 weeks from RTM.

I am more interested in Server 8 though as the hypervisor improvements are attractive.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:47 AM

. . . I think that Microsoft expects this. What they are planning is to have their OEMs flood the channel of new PCs with Win8. . . .

That's the rub isn't it. That is what has happened with Windows 7.

Microsoft has forced us to support Windows 7 by forcing the OEMs to only sell new computers with Windows 7.

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:57 AM

Look XP updates expire soon but Vista and 7 are still good for use for now. I have 8 on a VM and once I get the RTM disks I will be setting up more VMs to test software against.

So far the games I have work fine.

As for productivity software, I am a Microsoft shop (mostly)

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 3:36 AM

My intelligence dept has suggested Windows 8 is now about 3 weeks from RTM.

I am more interested in Server 8 though as the hypervisor improvements are attractive.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

That would be about right. If RTM is ready in mid-July, then corporate accounts can download the commercial version in September and OEMs can start selling Win8 machines in October.

I agree that Windows 8 Server is a decent effort, although they have attempted to "Metrofy" it as well.

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:44 PM

"Microsoft has forced us to support Windows 7 by forcing the OEMs to only sell new computers with Windows 7."

Right but don't underestimate the giant change in the current upgrade scenario. Windows 7 brought benefits for the existing hardware (faster, safer and less power-hungry than Vista), the benefits of Windows 8 touchscreen-centric, cross-device approach will mostly show up on new, yet-to-design hardware. Most of the computers, laptops or tablets in use now don't qualify for the "Windows 8 certified" logo. And the announcement of an own "convertible" like the MS Surface is a clear indicator that MS isn't content with its usual OEM ecosystem and their contributions to the new software/hardware platform. So far, MS is "betting the farm" (to some degree), and if too much people or corporations refuse to embrace the new, $800 line of convertible-ultrabooks, they always (must) have a fall-back line in strengthening the "desktop" part of the new system to make it more usable without the need for too drastic hardware changes. (Here I disagree with ADRz: WinRT, like it is now, is no replacement for Win32 and will not end the era of x86/x64 computers in a foreseeable future. Some observers expect more Win8 Pro Surface sales - with an Intel i5 CPU! - than WinRT Surface sales.)

Understanding Windows is like understanding women.

Edited by Sanmartin Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:45 PM

Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:48 PM

Me and some 500 million others like Windows 7 to one extent or another. Then there is that XP crowd that still has not updated their rig.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:16 PM

You know, I've been reading this thread for about a half hour (both parts 1 and 2, although I haven't read everything), and I can see people from both sides of the argument. I understand the merits of the argument on both sides.

Here's the bitter truth. It doesn't matter if you like metro or hate metro, it's happening. You can't stop it. Microsoft is set in this future. I think that the change is good for Windows. I, personally, embrace change in life because I understand the value of change. 90% of people fear change because it requires them to thing differently and they want to stay rooted where they are at.

When Office 2007 came out, it brought with it a change to the menu bar experience. The Ribbon revolutionized the way we operate our Office experience. With the change came the same resistance that we see here today with Metro. And everyone thought if they complained enough that, Microsoft would revert back to the old style of doing things. What actually happened, however, was quite the opposite. Microsoft added the experience to 12 other products in 2008, and 3 more products in 2009, increasing the reach of the ribbon experience. Just for notation, the ribbon is seen is every part of the new explorer experience in Windows 8.

Over time, however, people got used to the ribbon and many of those who opposed it in 2007, love to use it today.

It will be the same with Windows 8. Microsoft IS making metro happen. You aren't going to change Microsoft's mind and they won't go back. Several companies including my own have already found that thru the use of Metro, we can save between 5-20% of productivity because the start screen provides us the capability to get information at a glance. We have been doing this in Windows Phone 7 since it's release and now we are seeing desktop versions of our WP7 apps floating around the office.

It's going to happen. So just get used to it. Many of the Windows 8 applications releasing within the first year of Windows 8 will be Metro only. This means that if you disable the start screen, you can't run any of these applications. This is the reality. There is no way around it.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Edited by Quilnux Friday, June 29, 2012 2:16 PM

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:27 PM

Here's the bitter truth.

No, Quilnux. Here's the bitter truth.

I don't give a hoot about Microsoft's skirmish with Apple and Google. Provided it doesn't degrade my computing experience. But it is.
Microsoft is doing this in preparation for the so-called Post-PC Era. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It degrades everyone's experience until they get used to it. Do you honestly think that the changes Microsoft made to Office 2007 with the ribbon increased everyone office experience at first? Heck no. and you'd be a fool to think otherwise. But we all got used to it over time and found that we actually liked it. I understand what your saying and I do respect your view. And I agree that Microsoft is probably doing this for that "Post-PC" era crap.

Personally I think the idea of Post-PC is a big sham. I don't believe that a Post-PC era exists. I DO believe that new devices will be used to suppliment the augmentation of the PC beyond the desk and beyond the mouse and keyboard. But I do not believe that PC's will be gone in 10 years. They might change in looks and interaction, but they aren't going away. At least thats my oppinion.

Nonetheless, my post wasn't disagreeing with what you are saying. It's just that, Microsoft's not going to change because you or a group of people say it's degrading your computing experience. Microsoft is going to do this with or without you. So it's up to you to decide what you do from here.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:35 PM

Back in 2005 I bought a convertible PC that featured a screen that could be rotated into a tablet. It was very expensive. Today that machine is long dead, it only lasted 4 years before it stopped working.

I used it mostly for development testing and the like. It also suggested that future hardware would be less heavy and that a better OS than SP would be available compared to XP.

For the record, the touch screen is not that bad with programs developed for XP generally. The same will be true for the x86 tablets when Windows 8 ships.

The RT edition however features the ARM CPU where existing software will not run. This is where I expect more tablet friendly development.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:45 PM

I got one of those! Mine is just over 3 years old and still kicking. I love it!

I agree, I think that on the business end, there will be a lot of applications still running on the windows forms model that may have a metro counter-part to it.

I think that when you start looking at home users, thats where you'll see most of the metro work being done. I think that most home users will spent their time in metro instead of the shell. I mean, we even have video games running in metro using the XNA platform so I believe that there will be a ton of metro-only games being developed. Realistically, with the exception of video games and the browser (with plugins) there really won't be much of a reason for the use of the shell in the home environment.

But we'll just have to see what happens.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:53 PM

Given my gaming site is very popular, I have tested every game I own to see how well it works. So far no problems to report. Microsoft has upgraded DirectX so new generations of video cards have a market.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:53 PM

You guys are talking about purchasing convertible PCs back in the day and I just purchased one just weeks ago. I got the Lenovo x220t and it's really awesome. I used it for my main production machine running W8. Nice flush touchscreen, pen, full keyboard. It's like having a great tablet and laptop all in one. I guess this is why I'm loving W8 so much is because W8 make this machine 1000 times better. Without Metro this machine would not be near as fun to use.

I purchased two docks so I can have one for home and one for work. It so awesome to go from sitting on my couch playing games like "Cut the Rope" to docking my machine and it becoming a full fledge development machine. This is what I think people are missing. You get the best of all worlds. Now they are trade offs with using my convertible PC as a tablet. My tablet experience isn't a good as my other tablet but it's good enough considering the advantage of having a full keyboard. Also battery life is a little worse because I've installed applications like SQL Server 2012, IIS, etc. that end up burning through battery life. I would never install apps like this on my other tablet because it wouldn't make sense. My other machines I don't see any trade offs.

The point is that W8 makes my experience better on all my machines like my desktop PC, convertible PC and my tablet. It's just awesome.

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:04 PM

You guys are talking about purchasing convertible PCs back in the day and I just purchased one just weeks ago. I got the Lenovo x220t and it's really awesome.

Holy crap! I was just looking at Lenovo's web site at this exact same laptop right before you posted. That is scary.. I am considering this one to replace my current convertable. I'm also considering the Microsoft Surface for my slate.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:05 PM

Given my gaming site is very popular, I have tested every game I own to see how well it works. So far no problems to report. Microsoft has upgraded DirectX so new generations of video cards have a market.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

I've only seen a few minor glitches with some older games but they are pretty old (2002 and before) so I would expect it to be related to the age and not Windows 8.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:14 PM

You guys are talking about purchasing convertible PCs back in the day and I just purchased one just weeks ago. I got the Lenovo x220t and it's really awesome.

Holy crap! I was just looking at Lenovo's web site at this exact same laptop right before you posted. That is scary.. I am considering this one to replace my current convertable. I'm also considering the Microsoft Surface for my slate.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

I would recommend this tablet to anyone wanting a really nice convertible PC. I have the BUILD tablet and it does great when docked. I purchased another dock for it and it was a great development machine also with quad core and 4 gig ram. However where it suffered was when I attended meetings and needed a keyboard. The slate may overcome that with the magnetic keyboard.

However I'm really loving my Lenovo. I upgrade the ram to 8 gigs and put an SSD in it. This thing is fast and gets work done. Now it's not as powerful as my desktop but plenty enough powerful to run Visual Studios, Outlook, IIS, SQL 2012, Etc. all at the same time.

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:17 PM

Here's what you can expect to happen.

Those consumers you speak of will buy a new laptop with W8, straight-away launch the IE App, then won't know how to exit it.

They'll search desperately for the END button, like the one on their cellphone. The END button you push and hold to shut the thing off.

When they can't find that, they'll end up pulling the battery out just to shut it off. Just to exit the IE App.

After all, W8+Metro looks just like a gigantic cellphone, and that's how they'll expect it to behave.

Then file system will be corrupt.

Then they'll hate it, and never buy another one again.

Nah, Microsoft already stated they were going to have a walk through that basically explained how the gestures work. Not only that but every tablet is required to have a windows button. All they have to do is press it. Booyah no problem.

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:19 PM

You know, I've been reading this thread for about a half hour (both parts 1 and 2, although I haven't read everything), and I can see people from both sides of the argument. I understand the merits of the argument on both sides.

Here's the bitter truth. It doesn't matter if you like metro or hate metro, it's happening. You can't stop it. Microsoft is set in this future. I think that the change is good for Windows. I, personally, embrace change in life because I understand the value of change. 90% of people fear change because it requires them to thing differently and they want to stay rooted where they are at.

When Office 2007 came out, it brought with it a change to the menu bar experience. The Ribbon revolutionized the way we operate our Office experience. With the change came the same resistance that we see here today with Metro. And everyone thought if they complained enough that, Microsoft would revert back to the old style of doing things. What actually happened, however, was quite the opposite. Microsoft added the experience to 12 other products in 2008, and 3 more products in 2009, increasing the reach of the ribbon experience. Just for notation, the ribbon is seen is every part of the new explorer experience in Windows 8.

Over time, however, people got used to the ribbon and many of those who opposed it in 2007, love to use it today.

It will be the same with Windows 8. Microsoft IS making metro happen. You aren't going to change Microsoft's mind and they won't go back. Several companies including my own have already found that thru the use of Metro, we can save between 5-20% of productivity because the start screen provides us the capability to get information at a glance. We have been doing this in Windows Phone 7 since it's release and now we are seeing desktop versions of our WP7 apps floating around the office.

It's going to happen. So just get used to it. Many of the Windows 8 applications releasing within the first year of Windows 8 will be Metro only. This means that if you disable the start screen, you can't run any of these applications. This is the reality. There is no way around it.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

When I read posts like these I do not know what would be the best way to reply: provide a serious retort or just be cynical and make fun of some of the statements: You state that you "embrace change" etc, etc...platitudes of extreme proportions. I do not know you, of course, but I bet that you are very much like all of us, embracing the change you like and rejecting the change you do not. There is continuous change in our lives, sometimes we go with it and sometimes not. To claim that you "understand the value of change" is simply a bogus argument. There is tones of change that is bad (in fact, most of the changes in our lives are negative).

If you think that Windows should transform itself into mostly a portable OS with complex computing migrating to the cloud, then fine, you have embraced Microsoft's vision of the future. Let's call things what they are. Win8 is mostly a portable OS (WinRT) running the Win7 desktop (Win32) under enhanced emulation. Despite all the talk about Metro, this is not the important part. What is the important issue is the progressive transformation of Windows into a portable OS with limited multitasking, non-windowing UI, and closed application environment (one can only install apps from the Windows Marketplace).

In Microsoft's vision, after Win10 (or even then), there would not be any further need for Win32 (what we all know as Windows). Win32 complex, windowing computing would have migrated to the cloud. Users, who want access to that kind of computing, would be able to get it by subscribing to various online services and this software would be run through browsers (in which case -and I hope Microsoft realizes this- the desktop OS does not matter). For example, if one needs to run a complex program (Photoshop, Microsoft Project), would subscribe to a cloud service (for a year or per instance), work within a browser and save their data in the cloud. Microsoft has clearly articulated this vision. Windows 8/9/10 would be mostly WinRT, capable of running in limited hardware (mostly tablets) and selling to the average consumer. This is Microsoft's vision for the future and this is what the "change" proponents are embracing. I wonder if they even comprehend this.

So, a debate about Metro is really meaningless. Metro's only importance is that it reveals WinRT as the primary OS in Win8. This should be the issue in discussion, not minor navigation issues and silly assumptions or claims about "change".

Edited by ADRz Friday, June 29, 2012 5:29 PM

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:26 PM

Win8 is mostly a portable OS (WinRT) running the Win7 desktop (Win32) under enhanced emulation. Despite all the talk about Metro, this is not the important part.

Wow, this really shows your lack of understanding of Windows. Windows 8 is not WinRT. WinRT is a special build of Windows 8 to run on tablets. You've got it completely backwards. Just like the special build of Windows 8 to run on the next generation Windows Phone. Here is a better diagram.

Windows 8 Core (shared code on all platforms)

Windows 8 - Build for consumers
Windows 8 Professional - Build for small businesses
Windows 8 Enterprise - Build for enterprise customers
Windows RT - Build for tablets and gadgets
Windows Phone 8 - Build for phones
Windows Server 2012 - Build for servers

Hope this helps you understand what Microsoft is doing with their next OS.

Edited by Bobby J Cannon Friday, June 29, 2012 5:28 PM

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:27 PM

I think that when you start looking at home users, thats where you'll see most of the metro work being done. I think that most home users will spent their time in metro instead of the shell. I mean, we even have video games running in metro using the XNA platform so I believe that there will be a ton of metro-only games being developed. Realistically, with the exception of video games and the browser (with plugins) there really won't be much of a reason for the use of the shell in the home environment.

But we'll just have to see what happens.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Here's what you can expect to happen.

Those consumers you speak of will buy a new laptop with W8, straight-away launch the IE App, then won't know how to exit it.

They'll search desperately for the END button, like the one on their cellphone. The END button you push and hold to shut the thing off.

When they can't find that, they'll end up pulling the battery out just to shut it off. Just to exit the IE App.

After all, W8+Metro looks just like a gigantic cellphone, and that's how they'll expect it to behave.

Then file system will be corrupt.

Then they'll hate it, and never buy another one again.

I'm confident that the average non-technical user is smart enough to know the difference between a cell phone that you put to your ear and a slate that you don't. They may not know that it's called a slate but they will figure it out.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:33 PM

ADRz, why don't you ask Bobby if he edited his posts here by tapping them into Metro IE10 via touchscreen.

Ask him to get specific about one single thing he does better with W8+Metro, we could all use the inspiration.

Me, I wouldn't bother asking him. I know the answer. He loves W8 anyway. So does his wife.

No I didn't use Metro IE10 but I could have. I use Chrome mostly. The development tools in Chrome are untouchable. I'm not a fan of IE. BTW, I'm the one that loves W8. My wife likes W8 but could care less. She would be happy on XP, Vista, OSX or W8. She would use anything that allowed her to do what she needs to do. I on the other hand prefer to only use W8.

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:51 PM

ADRz, why don't you ask Bobby if he edited his posts here by tapping them into Metro IE10 via touchscreen.

No I didn't use Metro IE10 but I could have. I use Chrome mostly.

Oh. So you didn't use the touch facilities that MS degraded the desktop experience to implement.

Thank you for your testimonial confirming that you find it useless, Bobby.

No but I am using the Mail program to get notification of your responses in this forum. Does this make you feel better? :)

Also I don't need to use the "touch facilities" when I'm doing desktop work. Why would I need to touch my screen when I have a keyboard / mouse that I can do everything on? Metro doesn't prevent or hinder my desktop experience. It makes it beautiful though.

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:55 PM

Given my gaming site is very popular, I have tested every game I own to see how well it works. So far no problems to report. Microsoft has upgraded DirectX so new generations of video cards have a market.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

I've only seen a few minor glitches with some older games but they are pretty old (2002 and before) so I would expect it to be related to the age and not Windows 8.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Which titles do not work? Do they work with 7 OK, if so then I should create a new web page for games that do not work with 8.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:58 PM

Windows 8 release candidate runs day to day desktop work fine. Same for the RTM when that finally get signed off on.

I use a keyboard and mouse like most desktop users.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:09 PM

ADRz, why don't you ask Bobby if he edited his posts here by tapping them into Metro IE10 via touchscreen.

No I didn't use Metro IE10 but I could have. I use Chrome mostly.

Oh. So you didn't use the touch facilities that MS degraded the desktop experience to implement.

Thank you for your testimonial confirming that you find it useless, Bobby.

Also I don't need to use the "touch facilities" when I'm doing desktop work. Why would I need to touch my screen when I have a keyboard / mouse that I can do everything on? Metro doesn't prevent or hinder my desktop experience. It makes it beautiful though.

Bobby, you're not using it, and you didn't say it improved anything. All you did was deny it makes things worse.

But you say Metro makes your desktop prettier? Oh, what desperation. How?

Crash and burn. LOL.

I chose to ignore that part of your post because you are being silly. There's no reason to explain the benefits because you'll not get it anyways. There are plenty of benefits that are obviously lost on you.

I care about my computing experience and Metro is cleaning up that "wall of text boxes and radio button" application that we've grown used to. Many of these type of application are enterprise application that Metro may never change but there is hope.

I welcome the day that someone like Microsoft put emphasis on giving a great experience while putting focus on what's important which is the content or role of the application. Like the Mail application. I do feel that with some more work these types of application could be the enterprise applications of the future. This could be a pipe dream for me but hey a man can dream right!

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:12 PM

Win8 is mostly a portable OS (WinRT) running the Win7 desktop (Win32) under enhanced emulation. Despite all the talk about Metro, this is not the important part.

Wow, this really shows your lack of understanding of Windows. Windows 8 is not WinRT. WinRT is a special build of Windows 8 to run on tablets. You've got it completely backwards. Just like the special build of Windows 8 to run on the next generation Windows Phone. Here is a better diagram.

Windows 8 Core (shared code on all platforms)

Windows 8 - Build for consumers
Windows 8 Professional - Build for small businesses
Windows 8 Enterprise - Build for enterprise customers
Windows RT - Build for tablets and gadgets
Windows Phone 8 - Build for phones
Windows Server 2012 - Build for servers

Hope this helps you understand what Microsoft is doing with their next OS.

Bobby, I have to disappoint you, my friend, because it is apparent that you do not know what you are running. Windows 8 contains two runtime modules: WinRT and Win32. Just check it and you would see!!! All the time, I thought that you knew. But I guess that I was wrong!!!

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:17 PM

Bobby, I have to disappoint you, my friend, because it is apparent that you do not know what you are running. Windows 8 contains two runtime modules: WinRT and Win32. Just check it and you would see!!! All the time, I thought that you knew. But I guess that I was wrong!!!

Now just to be clear I think it was a naming failure on Microsoft's part for naming the runtime and the tablet OS build the same name. You do know that I was talking about the OS build for tablets named WinRT and not the runtime.

Now I know there is a runtime called WinRT that Metro applications run in. This is part of the Windows 8 Core. This however is not the base of the OS but a runtime provided with the OS. This was what I was clarifying. Be sure to get your WinRTs straight. ;)

Edited by Bobby J Cannon Friday, June 29, 2012 6:18 PM

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:43 PM

I gave ClasicShell a try for a few days but didn't really like it as much as Metro. It did take me a little bit to learn the ends and outs of using Metro. Now that I have it down I find it to be quite fast getting around. The looks of it could be better but they don't bother me. Most of the time I don't see it. I changed all of my computers over to win8 now. Looking forward to getting a tablet. The Samsung Series 7 sounds great but I'll wait to see how good Surface turns out to be.

Friday, June 29, 2012 7:57 PM

Bobby, I have to disappoint you, my friend, because it is apparent that you do not know what you are running. Windows 8 contains two runtime modules: WinRT and Win32. Just check it and you would see!!! All the time, I thought that you knew. But I guess that I was wrong!!!

Now just to be clear I think it was a naming failure on Microsoft's part for naming the runtime and the tablet OS build the same name. You do know that I was talking about the OS build for tablets named WinRT and not the runtime.

Now I know there is a runtime called WinRT that Metro applications run in. This is part of the Windows 8 Core. This however is not the base of the OS but a runtime provided with the OS. This was what I was clarifying. Be sure to get your WinRTs straight. ;)

I still do not know what you are talking about. WinRT is the portable OS. WinRT tablets will run only WinRT programs, while Win8 tablets and computers will run both WinRT apps and Win32 programs. Period. There are two separate OSes within Win8 and if you do not believe me, talk to Microsoft if you like.

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop). It runs WinRT programs (what you call Metro) natively, and it runs Win32 (in the desktop) under an enhanced emulation process. So, I am not at all confused by any naming process. It seems that you are confused as to what you are using.

Metro is just a UI guideline. Programs developed for WinRT may utilize Metro, or they may not. This is up to the developers. In fact, I am certain that one can write a Metro-like program in Win32, if one wants to (but why?).

I am not sure what you are arguing with me here. Do you disagree with me on the evolution of Windows as envisaged by Microsoft or not? If yes, then be open about it. If you believe otherwise, then give us your take. And be absolutely certain that I am not confused by anything. It seems that you are, however.

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:05 PM

Given my gaming site is very popular, I have tested every game I own to see how well it works. So far no problems to report. Microsoft has upgraded DirectX so new generations of video cards have a market.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

I've only seen a few minor glitches with some older games but they are pretty old (2002 and before) so I would expect it to be related to the age and not Windows 8.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Which titles do not work? Do they work with 7 OK, if so then I should create a new web page for games that do not work with 8.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

They barely work on Windows 7. They don't work on Windows 8 but then again, as I stated, they are very old games. They are back in like DX5 and DX6 days which we all know that the new DX got rid of some of the DX5 and DX6 support. It's not worth listing.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:16 PM

You know, I've been reading this thread for about a half hour (both parts 1 and 2, although I haven't read everything), and I can see people from both sides of the argument. I understand the merits of the argument on both sides.

Here's the bitter truth. It doesn't matter if you like metro or hate metro, it's happening. You can't stop it. Microsoft is set in this future. I think that the change is good for Windows. I, personally, embrace change in life because I understand the value of change. 90% of people fear change because it requires them to thing differently and they want to stay rooted where they are at.

When Office 2007 came out, it brought with it a change to the menu bar experience. The Ribbon revolutionized the way we operate our Office experience. With the change came the same resistance that we see here today with Metro. And everyone thought if they complained enough that, Microsoft would revert back to the old style of doing things. What actually happened, however, was quite the opposite. Microsoft added the experience to 12 other products in 2008, and 3 more products in 2009, increasing the reach of the ribbon experience. Just for notation, the ribbon is seen is every part of the new explorer experience in Windows 8.

Over time, however, people got used to the ribbon and many of those who opposed it in 2007, love to use it today.

It will be the same with Windows 8. Microsoft IS making metro happen. You aren't going to change Microsoft's mind and they won't go back. Several companies including my own have already found that thru the use of Metro, we can save between 5-20% of productivity because the start screen provides us the capability to get information at a glance. We have been doing this in Windows Phone 7 since it's release and now we are seeing desktop versions of our WP7 apps floating around the office.

It's going to happen. So just get used to it. Many of the Windows 8 applications releasing within the first year of Windows 8 will be Metro only. This means that if you disable the start screen, you can't run any of these applications. This is the reality. There is no way around it.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

When I read posts like these I do not know what would be the best way to reply: provide a serious retort or just be cynical and make fun of some of the statements: You state that you "embrace change" etc, etc...platitudes of extreme proportions. I do not know you, of course, but I bet that you are very much like all of us, embracing the change you like and rejecting the change you do not. There is continuous change in our lives, sometimes we go with it and sometimes not. To claim that you "understand the value of change" is simply a bogus argument. There is tones of change that is bad (in fact, most of the changes in our lives are negative).

If you think that Windows should transform itself into mostly a portable OS with complex computing migrating to the cloud, then fine, you have embraced Microsoft's vision of the future. Let's call things what they are. Win8 is mostly a portable OS (WinRT) running the Win7 desktop (Win32) under enhanced emulation. Despite all the talk about Metro, this is not the important part. What is the important issue is the progressive transformation of Windows into a portable OS with limited multitasking, non-windowing UI, and closed application environment (one can only install apps from the Windows Marketplace).

In Microsoft's vision, after Win10 (or even then), there would not be any further need for Win32 (what we all know as Windows). Win32 complex, windowing computing would have migrated to the cloud. Users, who want access to that kind of computing, would be able to get it by subscribing to various online services and this software would be run through browsers (in which case -and I hope Microsoft realizes this- the desktop OS does not matter). For example, if one needs to run a complex program (Photoshop, Microsoft Project), would subscribe to a cloud service (for a year or per instance), work within a browser and save their data in the cloud. Microsoft has clearly articulated this vision. Windows 8/9/10 would be mostly WinRT, capable of running in limited hardware (mostly tablets) and selling to the average consumer. This is Microsoft's vision for the future and this is what the "change" proponents are embracing. I wonder if they even comprehend this.

So, a debate about Metro is really meaningless. Metro's only importance is that it reveals WinRT as the primary OS in Win8. This should be the issue in discussion, not minor navigation issues and silly assumptions or claims about "change".

I disagree with your assuption that I'm like you all when it comes to my views of change. I feel, personally, that I stand in a very small group of people that can look ahead at the long term view of change. It will change the lifestyle of computing, yes. It will require us to look at computing differently, yes. I do not believe that this is a shift in where the only thing that stands is portable devices. I do agree that portable devices will tend to emerge in greater numbers then desktops. But again, I re-state that I do not feel that the desktop will be gone.

I also do not believe that Windows 8 is a portable only OS. While I can understand how you got to that believe, I feel instead that the new interface provides new ways of getting information.

You also stated that Win32 is going away. I'm not sure if I agree with that. Just as Silverlight and WPF did not remove HTML, I do not believe that Metro will be the death of Win32.

I will agree, however, with your assessment of the cloud. But again, I do not see this as a negative. I see the potential of having information available from anywhere. That can be at my desk at work, my slate on a plane, my smartphone in a taxi, the infotainment system in me car, etc. I will furthermore stipulate that we ARE changing how we do things.

If I may ask, where you read that Microsoft believes that Win32 is going to be dead after Win10? I would really like to read this article.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:20 PM

Bobby, I have to disappoint you, my friend, because it is apparent that you do not know what you are running. Windows 8 contains two runtime modules: WinRT and Win32. Just check it and you would see!!! All the time, I thought that you knew. But I guess that I was wrong!!!

Now just to be clear I think it was a naming failure on Microsoft's part for naming the runtime and the tablet OS build the same name. You do know that I was talking about the OS build for tablets named WinRT and not the runtime.

Now I know there is a runtime called WinRT that Metro applications run in. This is part of the Windows 8 Core. This however is not the base of the OS but a runtime provided with the OS. This was what I was clarifying. Be sure to get your WinRTs straight. ;)

I still do not know what you are talking about. WinRT is the portable OS. WinRT tablets will run only WinRT programs, while Win8 tablets and computers will run both WinRT apps and Win32 programs. Period. There are two separate OSes within Win8 and if you do not believe me, talk to Microsoft if you like.

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop). It runs WinRT programs (what you call Metro) natively, and it runs Win32 (in the desktop) under an enhanced emulation process. So, I am not at all confused by any naming process. It seems that you are confused as to what you are using.

Metro is just a UI guideline. Programs developed for WinRT may utilize Metro, or they may not. This is up to the developers. In fact, I am certain that one can write a Metro-like program in Win32, if one wants to (but why?).

I am not sure what you are arguing with me here. Do you disagree with me on the evolution of Windows as envisaged by Microsoft or not? If yes, then be open about it. If you believe otherwise, then give us your take. And be absolutely certain that I am not confused by anything. It seems that you are, however.

A runtime isn't an OS. If you think it is then I have to also assume you believe that the .NET Framework is an OS.

Runtimes sit on top of the OS

The OS sits on top of the Kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:27 PM

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop).

Incorrect. WinRT is a special build of Windows 8 without support for running Win32 applications. However WinRT can run Win32 applications as Microsoft has already stated that WinRT will include full Office suite (Office 15).

"Within the Windows desktop, WOA [Windows on ARM] includes desktop versions of the new Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote, codenamed 'Office 15',” Sinofsky said

The feature to allow the user to run desktop mode has been disable for the WinRT version.Windows 8 is the full OS where WinRT is a stripped down version of Windows 8 that will only run "Metro" (WinRT) applications.

My issue is that you act as if Windows 8 is WinRT with Win32 support which is incorrect. But rather WinRT is Windows 8 without user access to the desktop.

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:34 PM

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itproperf/thread/aa16c25a-9c72-4579-ba02-cea920296271

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop). It runs WinRT programs (what you call Metro) natively, and it runs Win32 (in the desktop) under an enhanced emulation process.

Emphasis mine.

Hm... Note the thread on how much additional latency is being seen for tasks on the Windows 8 Deferred Procedure Call queue...

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:44 PM

They barely work on Windows 7. They don't work on Windows 8 but then again, as I stated, they are very old games. They are back in like DX5 and DX6 days which we all know that the new DX got rid of some of the DX5 and DX6 support. It's not worth listing.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Well I recall Balmer commenting that if it works with 7 it will work with 8, so far I have no title that I can say fails. So far.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Friday, June 29, 2012 8:47 PM

A runtime isn't an OS. If you think it is then I have to also assume you believe that the .NET Framework is an OS.

Runtimes sit on top of the OS

The OS sits on top of the Kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Exactly. Next we'll hear him calling Windows 7 by the name of Windows .NET. LOL.

Friday, June 29, 2012 9:55 PM

They barely work on Windows 7. They don't work on Windows 8 but then again, as I stated, they are very old games. They are back in like DX5 and DX6 days which we all know that the new DX got rid of some of the DX5 and DX6 support. It's not worth listing.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Well I recall Balmer commenting that if it works with 7 it will work with 8, so far I have no title that I can say fails. So far.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

When I say barely worked in Windows 7, what I really mean is, it took 5 months of tweaking registries and other bit to "force" it to work. and even then it was unstable.

We are talking about games like Homeworld 1 and 2, MAX 1 (not Max Payne, I mean the game called MAX, a TBS game) C&C Gold (old version, not the newer redist) and Dues Ex 1 (RTM CD, not the Steam version).

When I say old games, I also mean old games. lol.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Edited by Quilnux Friday, June 29, 2012 9:55 PM

Friday, June 29, 2012 10:00 PM

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop).

Incorrect. WinRT is a special build of Windows 8 without support for running Win32 applications. However WinRT can run Win32 applications as Microsoft has already stated that WinRT will include full Office suite (Office 15).

"Within the Windows desktop, WOA [Windows on ARM] includes desktop versions of the new Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote, codenamed 'Office 15',” Sinofsky said

The feature to allow the user to run desktop mode has been disable for the WinRT version.Windows 8 is the full OS where WinRT is a stripped down version of Windows 8 that will only run "Metro" (WinRT) applications.

My issue is that you act as if Windows 8 is WinRT with Win32 support which is incorrect. But rather WinRT is Windows 8 without user access to the desktop.

Either you are horribly confused, or you agree with me and you do not know it. The latter is the most likely. If WinRT is a version of Windows 8 that does not support Win32, then what is Win8????? It is an OS that supports both WinRT and Win32!!! Is there anything else there that I am missing? I think not. Thus (and repeat after me), Win8 is WinRT that is capable of running Win32 programs!!! If you remove this support, then all you have is (tada!!!!) WinRT!! It is as simple as this. If you do not think so, please....educate us!!!

Yes, in WinRT tablets, MS has included ARM-coded versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote (these may, or may not be, identical to the version of x86 Office products). Thus, the WinRT runtime can run in x86 Intel processors and in ARM processors (while Win32 can run only on Intel processors).

Friday, June 29, 2012 10:06 PM

A runtime isn't an OS. If you think it is then I have to also assume you believe that the .NET Framework is an OS.

Runtimes sit on top of the OS

The OS sits on top of the Kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Exactly. Next we'll hear him calling Windows 7 by the name of Windows .NET. LOL.

I never said that runtimes are the OS. But they define the operating system. Everything that would run on WinRT, will run on Win8. Everything!!! However, no Win32-supported application will run on WinRT. So, it is very important to understand Win8 as a combination of these two runtimes. Going forward, Win32 and all its support will be dropped. Windows, (including .Net, silverlight, etc) will disappear. I am sure that Microsoft wants this to happen by Win10 (or, at least, it targets this). Any particular objection to this???

Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:05 AM

In fact, Win8 is WinRT that supports Win32 as a task (the desktop).

Incorrect. WinRT is a special build of Windows 8 without support for running Win32 applications. However WinRT can run Win32 applications as Microsoft has already stated that WinRT will include full Office suite (Office 15).

"Within the Windows desktop, WOA [Windows on ARM] includes desktop versions of the new Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote, codenamed 'Office 15',” Sinofsky said

The feature to allow the user to run desktop mode has been disable for the WinRT version.Windows 8 is the full OS where WinRT is a stripped down version of Windows 8 that will only run "Metro" (WinRT) applications.

My issue is that you act as if Windows 8 is WinRT with Win32 support which is incorrect. But rather WinRT is Windows 8 without user access to the desktop.

Either you are horribly confused, or you agree with me and you do not know it. The latter is the most likely. If WinRT is a version of Windows 8 that does not support Win32, then what is Win8????? It is an OS that supports both WinRT and Win32!!! Is there anything else there that I am missing? I think not. Thus (and repeat after me), Win8 is WinRT that is capable of running Win32 programs!!! If you remove this support, then all you have is (tada!!!!) WinRT!! It is as simple as this. If you do not think so, please....educate us!!!

Yes, in WinRT tablets, MS has included ARM-coded versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote (these may, or may not be, identical to the version of x86 Office products). Thus, the WinRT runtime can run in x86 Intel processors and in ARM processors (while Win32 can run only on Intel processors).

Actually windows without Win32 support is still windows considering windows itself isn't WinRT and isn't Win32. Those platforms sit on top of the windows kernel. The kernel is windows. Windows without Win32 support is just windows without Win32 support.

Win32 and WinRT are just platforms which provide an API layer for development of applications. BTW, it should be important to note that WinRT does NOT require Win32 and Win32 does NOT require WinRT. These platforms run independantly, but share common libraries which each other. But seperately, the can stand on their own without support from the other.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:33 AM

Win32 and WinRT are just platforms which provide an API layer for development of applications. BTW, it should be important to note that WinRT does NOT require Win32 and Win32 does NOT require WinRT. These platforms run independantly, but share common libraries which each other. But seperately, the can stand on their own without support from the other.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Yes, absolutely!! Win8 is the synthesis of these two. As discussed previously, Microsoft hopes to remove Win32 support by a couple of iterations of Windows. When that happens, these versions would be totally incompatible with everything from Win7 or older. This, on its own, is not dramatic; what is dramatic is the difference in the computing paradigm. If Windows becomes an OS for portable computing (if it is expected to support all kinds of tablets and portable platforms), then it would continue dropping support for complex, advanced computing. Win8 is a step in that direction. As discussed before, Microsoft hopes to move support for complex programs to the cloud and fight to maintain users with its cloud offerings. It does not envision, right now, creating a very dedicated desktop OS that would provide enhanced support for more advanced hardware configurations.

At the end, this is the real tragedy with Windows 8. Without Microsoft separating the code, Win8 has become the OS that supports even the most minimal hardware and does not take advantage of powerful processors and powerful GPUs to provide enhanced support for complex computing. Obviously, Microsoft does not expect this to be a major market. Users, who want this, would have to migrate to other platforms. At the end, this is the moral of the story!!

Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:02 AM

Win32 and WinRT are just platforms which provide an API layer for development of applications. BTW, it should be important to note that WinRT does NOT require Win32 and Win32 does NOT require WinRT. These platforms run independantly, but share common libraries which each other. But seperately, the can stand on their own without support from the other.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Yes, absolutely!! Win8 is the synthesis of these two. As discussed previously, Microsoft hopes to remove Win32 support by a couple of iterations of Windows. When that happens, these versions would be totally incompatible with everything from Win7 or older. This, on its own, is not dramatic; what is dramatic is the difference in the computing paradigm. If Windows becomes an OS for portable computing (if it is expected to support all kinds of tablets and portable platforms), then it would continue dropping support for complex, advanced computing. Win8 is a step in that direction. As discussed before, Microsoft hopes to move support for complex programs to the cloud and fight to maintain users with its cloud offerings. It does not envision, right now, creating a very dedicated desktop OS that would provide enhanced support for more advanced hardware configurations.

At the end, this is the real tragedy with Windows 8. Without Microsoft separating the code, Win8 has become the OS that supports even the most minimal hardware and does not take advantage of powerful processors and powerful GPUs to provide enhanced support for complex computing. Obviously, Microsoft does not expect this to be a major market. Users, who want this, would have to migrate to other platforms. At the end, this is the moral of the story!!

I've asked this three times now and haven't gotten an answer. Where does it say (from Microsoft directly) that they are intending to remove Win32 down the road. I have not heard Microsoft say this, in fact, Microsoft intends to support both for a very long time. The thing is, you can't run everything from WinRT. There are alot of things that will not support WinRT and never will. Win32 isn't going away. Unless you can show me a microsoft.com article stating Microsoft's intentions of removing Win32 down the road.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:59 AM

Excuse my ignorance, but to me there seems to be some confusion between WinRT and Windows RT (previously known as Windows on ARM).

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:08 AM

I am a developer so I will say this

Win32 is the old API that got its start from Windows 1 onwards. With each new version of Windows it has been expanded until today its a relatively rich C based API.

RT is a new API that I have only began to look at. Essentially its intended to parallel Win32 more or less.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:26 AM

Excuse my ignorance, but to me there seems to be some confusion between WinRT and Windows RT (previously known as Windows on ARM).

Yeah but there no use in trying to explain because they won't understand. They think Windows 8 is WinRT... blah.

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:26 AM

I am a developer so I will say this

Win32 is the old API that got its start from Windows 1 onwards. With each new version of Windows it has been expanded until today its a relatively rich C based API.

RT is a new API that I have only began to look at. Essentially its intended to parallel Win32 more or less.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Vegan Advocate | PC Reviews

Exactly.

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:59 AM

I am a developer so I will say this

Win32 is the old API that got its start from Windows 1 onwards. With each new version of Windows it has been expanded until today its a relatively rich C based API.

RT is a new API that I have only began to look at. Essentially its intended to parallel Win32 more or less.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

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Yes, but the capabilities of each set of APIs are different. For example, Win32 can support full multitasking and windowing, and WinRT cannot. WinRT essentially addresses the requirements of a portable OS (full screen, limited multitasking, notifications, etc).

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:05 AM

Excuse my ignorance, but to me there seems to be some confusion between WinRT and Windows RT (previously known as Windows on ARM).
Yeah but there no use in trying to explain because they won't understand. They think Windows 8 is WinRT... blah.

You are hopelessly confused. WinRT is both in Win8 and WindowsRT. In fact, for WindowsRT, WinRT is the only API set. For the time being, WindowsRT (the WinRT version of Win8) is offered only in ARM processors (although there is nothing stopping Microsoft in offering it in Intel x86 processors). Win8, that incorporates the WinRT and Win32 set of APIs would run only on Intel x86 processors. Is this clear enough for you???

Do you actually disagree that if you remove Win32 from Win8, the only thing that would run would be WinRT (Metro) programs??? Just checking....

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:26 AM

You are hopelessly confused. WinRT is both in Win8 and WindowsRT. In fact, for WindowsRT, WinRT is the only API set. For the time being, WindowsRT (the WinRT version of Win8) is offered only in ARM processors (although there is nothing stopping Microsoft in offering it in Intel x86 processors). Win8, that incorporates the WinRT and Win32 set of APIs would run only on Intel x86 processors. Is this clear enough for you???

Do you actually disagree that if you remove Win32 from Win8, the only thing that would run would be WinRT (Metro) programs??? Just checking....

Let me explain this to you. The WinRT runtime in on both Windows 8 and Windows RT. The Win32 runtime support is on both Windows 8 and Windows RT. Microsoft has purposely disabled access to running desktop (Win32) programs due to the fact that Windows RT is designed to run only on tablets. Is it really that hard to understand why? It's call controlling the experience, battery life and what applications can be ran on the device. It's about giving people peace of mind that an app download from the store will run on my devices. Windows 8 (full blown windows) will continue to allow Win32 application because it's Windows and there is no reason to now or in the future to disable Win32. It's as simple as that. Windows RT is a subset controlled version of Windows 8.

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:51 AM

I'm a little bit disillusioned by the late development of discussion in this thread. Is there no one with knowledge of Windows Internals there? M.Russinovich&D.Solomon:Windows Internals;
Mark's blog;
proficiency in Windows kernel debugger

Windows 8 on desktops w/Intel processors:

Kernel - basic part of the OS - contains implementation of the Win32 API functions - almost identical to the kernel of Windows 7

native Windows application are based on Win32 API - that's not a runtime extension.

runtimes: extensions above basic Win32 API:
a) full-featured .NET w/WPF
b) Siverlight - .NET tailored for web browsers
c) WinRT - .NET tailored for tablets - with restrictions and limitations mentioned above - no windowing, strictly limited multitasking, ...
      - with separation of applications - with Singularity-like contracts - the single most advanced feature of Windows 8
      - undocumented functions to start/spawn/fork Win32 API environment application - e.g. Windows Explorer
      - WinRT functionality is implemented through Win32 API functions
      - Metro applications - implemented exclusively in WinRT - standard Win32 API processes (see SysInternal's Process Explorer or WinDbg's "> !process 0 0")
d) "classic" runtimes - Basic-of-old, C, C++, ...

There has been an attempt to build Windows kernel entirely over .NET objects - Singularity OS by Windows Research - transformed into the first pre-alpha versions of Vista, abandoned due to unsolvable problems with implementation.

WinRT is the second attempt based on ARM processors only this time, and transferred on Intel's processors only as a runtime.

vjj

Edited by vjj Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:27 AM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:57 PM

Windows 8 on desktops w/Intel processors:

Kernel - basic part of the OS - contains implementation of the Win32 API functions - almost identical to the kernel of Windows 7

native Windows application are based on Win32 API - that's not a runtime extension.

runtimes: extensions above basic Win32 API:
c) WinRT - .NET tailored for tablets - with restrictions and limitations mentioned above - no windowing, strictly limited multitasking, ...
      - with separation of applications - with Singularity-like contracts - the single most advanced feature of Windows 8
      - undocumented functions to start/spawn/fork Win32 API environment application - e.g. Windows Explorer
      - WinRT functionality is implemented through Win32 API functions
      - Metro applications - implemented exclusively in WinRT - standard Win32 API processes (see SysInternal's Process Explorer or WinDbg's "> !process 0 0")
d) "classic" runtimes - Basic-of-old, C, C++, ...

Oh really? So then that means that WinRT wouldn't work without Win32 running on Intel chips? Then that would mean we are all wrong. lol. Be careful. You might just make some enemies now. (Just kidding).

That is interesting because even my take on it was that WinRT was independent of Win32.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Edited by Quilnux Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:03 PM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:21 PM

Platform lies: http://windowssucks.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/windows-8-build-2011-platform-lies/

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:30 PM

Platform lies: http://windowssucks.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/windows-8-build-2011-platform-lies/

Considering that your article is over 9 months old, that things have changed between now and then, I'm pretty sure this link isn't the truth of today. Keep in mind this article would only be relevant to the Developer Preview, which has significantly changed now that we are in Release Candidate. Also the article does not show any facts or proof of it's claim.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:39 PM

I have not tested RT for performance yet, as I am waiting for VS 2012 to RTM. Then I can do a test project or 2 and see what API I will use.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:28 PM

Platform lies: http://windowssucks.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/windows-8-build-2011-platform-lies/

Yes, the scheme shown there is correct - can be verified by sniffing in kernel debugger WinDbg. I've published similar one in in the first part of this thread. There are constant changes in WinRT object model, marking initially unintended transfer of WinRT from a pure tablet runtime to a runtime at least partially usable on Intel desktops, only.

vjj

Edited by vjj Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:36 PM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:32 PM

Platform lies: http://windowssucks.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/windows-8-build-2011-platform-lies/

Seems like an unbiased source, though it may be accurate the conclusion of "Platform Lies" is a bit of an overstatement. More likely an oversimplification for brevity and clarity. They may have been assuming that the kernel mode stubs and Win32(win32k.sys) in the kernel were implied. You could also take the Win32 layer and extend it under almost everything and have the bottom half in kernel mode and the top half in user mode. You could call it the Win32/WinRT translation layer. But, so what? There's nothing wrong with the kernel level primitives being used by both stacks. There is also the distinction of the kernel proper and the normally user-mode layers that were pushed into kernel mode for performance. Again, so what?

Let's not forget we are off on our "internals" tangent because of the assertions of ADRz that Microsoft has clearly stated that Win32 is dead. The death of the Desktop is greatly exaggerated, especially by him. He's a troll that has been on a continual FUD campaign of ignorance. He probably gets off when some moron votes up his specious posts as "helpful".

Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:54 PM

Seems like an unbiased source, though it may be accurate the conclusion of "Platform Lies" is a bit of an overstatement. More likely an oversimplification for brevity and clarity. They may have been assuming that the kernel mode stubs and Win32(win32k.sys) in the kernel were implied. You could also take the Win32 layer and extend it under almost everything and have the bottom half in kernel mode and the top half in user mode. You could call it the Win32/WinRT translation layer. But, so what? There's nothing wrong with the kernel level primitives being used by both stacks. There is also the distinction of the kernel proper and the normally user-mode layers that were pushed into kernel mode for performance. Again, so what?

Let's not forget we are off on our "internals" tangent because of the assertions of ADRz that Microsoft has clearly stated that Win32 is dead. The death of the Desktop is greatly exaggerated, especially by him. He's a troll that has been on a continual FUD campaign of ignorance. He probably gets off when some moron votes up his specious posts as "helpful".

Let it be an unbiased source, but you can convince yourself, just look into your Windows 8 installation.

"They may have been assuming that the kernel mode stubs and Win32(win32k.sys) in the kernel were implied"
- What you are talking about? May be you don't know what is a kernel mode stub (ntdll.dll library) and the difference between Win32 API implementation in ntoskrnl.exe and Windowing and graphics module win32k.sys.

There's a difference between Microsoft's public announcements (e.g. Sinofsky's blog) about "legacy desktop and Win32 API applications" correctly referred to by ADRz, and technical implementation of Windows 8 with Win32 API kernel (according to Sinofsky, only temporary. He fantasizes WinRT as the only possible future of Windows kernel and Metro as the only user interface).

vjj

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:09 PM

"They may have been assuming that the kernel mode stubs and Win32(win32k.sys) in the kernel were implied"
- What you are talking about? May be you don't know what is a kernel mode stub (ntdll.dll library) and the difference between Win32 API implementation in ntoskrnl.exe and Windowing and graphics module win32k.sys.

vjj

I sort of choked because of having food in my mouth while laughing. Did you seriously just call the Win32k.sys a graphics module? I'm slowly walking away now.. That is the most entertaining thing I have ever heard. The graphics module isn't Win32k.sys. GDI32, DDRAW, and USER32 are the modules for displaying information. Win32k.sys just processes requests between many different parts of the OS and the kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:33 PM

The graphics module isn't Win32k.sys. GDI32, DDRAW, and USER32 are the modules for displaying information. Win32k.sys just processes requests between many different parts of the OS and the kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

GDI32.dll, USER32.dll, ... are user mode libraries with stubs for WIN32 API functions, only.

Main path from these libraries to kernel is through gateway in ntdll.dll library.

System Service Dispatcher and part of Win32 API functions is implemented in ntoskrnl.exe (that's a DLL library, in fact) running in protected mode on ring 0.

In W2K also the implementation of Environment subsystem module was moved from ring 3 to ring 0 as a new Win32k.sys module and contains implementation of Windowing and graphic, and implementation for corresponding functions from Win32,User32,and GDI32 libraries.

source: M.Russinovich,D.Solomon: Inside Windows; WinDbg's disclosure of Win32 API functions implementation, WRK - Windows Research Kernel annotated source text for Windows. Mark and David are not the experts to laugh to.

vjj

Edited by vjj Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:04 PM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:47 PM

Let it be an unbiased source, but you can convince yourself, just look into your Windows 8 installation.

I wasn't saying I wasn't convinced, only that the conclusion they were intentionally lying(Platform lies) was ridiculous. I'm not going to split hairs with you on kernel structure, I shouldn't have said kernel mode stubs it was badly worded. The point was that it could be implied that Win32 is part of the kernel for the sake of them not intentionally "lying" in that diagram. I called out one part of the kernel portion (win32k.sys) and the stubs that pass down calls from user-mode to kernel-mode to support the suggestion that the win32 layer could be represented with half in kernel and half in user. Do you agree with that?

It's also true that you will be able to run "legacy"(or whatever you want to call it) Desktop apps for a very long time regardless of Sinofsky's fantasies. You can say I told you so if/when it happens.

Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:43 PM

The graphics module isn't Win32k.sys. GDI32, DDRAW, and USER32 are the modules for displaying information. Win32k.sys just processes requests between many different parts of the OS and the kernel.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

GDI32.dll, USER32.dll, ... are user mode libraries with stubs for WIN32 API functions, only.

Main path from these libraries to kernel is through gateway in ntdll.dll library.

System Service Dispatcher and part of Win32 API functions is implemented in ntoskrnl.exe (that's a DLL library, in fact) running in protected mode on ring 0.

In W2K also the implementation of Environment subsystem module was moved from ring 3 to ring 0 as a new Win32k.sys module and contains implementation of Windowing and graphic, and implementation for corresponding functions from Win32,User32,and GDI32 libraries.

source: M.Russinovich,D.Solomon: Inside Windows; WinDbg's disclosure of Win32 API functions implementation, WRK - Windows Research Kernel annotated source text for Windows. Mark and David are not the experts to laugh to.

vjj

I agree with everything you have said except for the part about Windowing and graphic being run in Win32k.sys. If Win32k.sys solely handled windowing and graphics then there would be no need for GDI DDRAW or USER32. Now, I will stipulate that Win32k.sys IS a part of the procedure that occurs in GDI, and USER32, in fact without Win32k.sys you couldn't have GDI and USER32 working correctly. But to say that Win32k.sys by itself handles windowing and graphics, thats the part I disagree with.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:04 AM

There's a difference between Microsoft's public announcements (e.g. Sinofsky's blog) about "legacy desktop and Win32 API applications" correctly referred to by ADRz, and technical implementation of Windows 8 with Win32 API kernel (according to Sinofsky, only temporary. He fantasizes WinRT as the only possible future of Windows kernel and Metro as the only user interface).

vjj

Vjj, you are absolutely correct. Sinofsky's vision of removing the Win32 APIs layer has been communicated to a variety of analyst groups. It is hardly a secret that this is what Microsoft is targeting for. Basically, Microsoft, having introduced WinRT, it has really no option than to convince developers to develop for the WinRT API.

There is a huge upside to Microsoft if the vision comes true. WinRT (Metro) programs would be distributed through the Microsoft Marketplace (the only way that these programs can be installed) and Microsoft is going to take its share (20-30%) out of every single sale. A huge, huge upside. Since Win32 apps can be installed by the user, these are not retailed in the Microsoft Marketplace, and Microsoft is not collecting a penny of their sale. So, Microsoft has a huge, huge inducement of burying Win32 as deep and as soon as it can. Virtually, Microsoft wants to retire Windows as soon as it can for its "re-imagined Window"!!!

So, those who "embrace" Metro, like Bobby here, essentially facilitate the Microsoft vision which is, I believe, against their interests. Because of Microsoft's vision comes true, then people like Bobby will see their computing costs escalating beyond anything they would have envisioned. For example, they can now buy Adobe's Photoshop CS 6.0 for about $600. In Microsoft's vision, Adobe's Photoshop would no longer exist (simply because it cannot be supported by the WinRT, non-windowing, primitive multitasking APIs). Users who want to use the capabilities of that program, will subscribe to a service offered by Adobe under which they can gain access for a few months through a cloud-based solution or annually. On the basis of the current subscription model, prices for the use of Adobe Photoshop, now very limited to a small slice of the purchasing public, would be well in excess of $600 a year!! ...and likely, much higher. On the other hand, Adobe would be selling a a WinRT, full-screen "Photoshop Essentials" for about $14.95 for thereabouts that users can buy and install for the marketplace. Users who want the full capabilities of Microsoft Office would be led to Office 365 or something similar, getting access to Office 2015? through the web for the price of $8.00 per month (something like $96 a year). Of course, people can move over to Google docs or something similar for free!!

Bobby may not believe me, but this is the vision of computing according to Microsoft, articulated in many industry groups and Wall Street analysts. Win8 is a hybrid solution by necessity, but it is a very transitional product. If Win8 succeeds, one should kiss multi-windowing, multitasking, multithreading, complex applications running directly on PCs goodbye and get ready to lay down some real cash for dedicated services for these programs. This is not my wild assumptions. This is the official Microsoft position. It may not happen, but Microsoft would try hard to make it happen. Purchase a copy of Windows 8, or state how much you like it in this forums, and you are enabling Microsoft's vision. Just make sure that this vision is in accordance with your interests.

Edited by ADRz Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:06 AM

Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:25 AM

I agree with everything you have said except for the part about Windowing and graphic being run in Win32k.sys. If Win32k.sys solely handled windowing and graphics then there would be no need for GDI DDRAW or USER32. Now, I will stipulate that Win32k.sys IS a part of the procedure that occurs in GDI, and USER32, in fact without Win32k.sys you couldn't have GDI and USER32 working correctly. But to say that Win32k.sys by itself handles windowing and graphics, thats the part I disagree with.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

We differ only in terminology, fortunately. For Win32k.sys contains IMPLEMENTATION of functions concerning windowing and graphics, it's usually labeled as a module that HANDLES them, in literature.

vjj

Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:38 AM

ADRz, Then it sounds to me like you better hurry up and learn how to use Linux because Linux is the only OS (according to you) that doesn't do this. Apple has been doing the whole 20% thing on their Macs for almost a decade now (2003 if I'm not mistaken). *If* and I extreme stress the word *if* Microsoft really does this, then Linux will be your only alternative.

You can't say this is Microsoft's "Official" position because they haven't publically said this was the way they are headed in the future. It's only official when Microsoft says it's official. At best you can say it's Microsoft's "unofficial" position. If you argue this point then you really need to buy a dictionary.

At the end of the day WinRT AND Windows could never survive without Win32. This is mostly due to the fact that Win32 is required for 3rd party drivers, filters, and extensions. It's already been stated (both in this forum, and by Microsoft directly) that WinRT is only a subset of the API. There are a ton of things that WinRT would have to be able to support from Win32 that it just won't be able to. Also, you can't get rid of Win32 and expect Windows Services (a major component of Windows) to work. There are things that WinRT just won't do. This is why Win32 will survive. Granted, in the long term there will be more WinRT applications then Win32 applications, I will give you that. But removing Win32, it's just not going to happen. At least not in my oppinion.

Also, for the record, WinRT DOES do Multithreading.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Edited by Quilnux Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:42 AM

Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:42 AM

to support the suggestion that the win32 layer could be represented with half in kernel and half in user. Do you agree with that?

It's also true that you will be able to run "legacy"(or whatever you want to call it) Desktop apps for a very long time regardless of Sinofsky's fantasies. You can say I told you so if/when it happens.

I do agree with you with only one caveat. Even when the Win32 API implementation in the Windows kernel will survive for a long time, access to it's functionality can be forcibly filtered through obligatory runtimes (e.g. WinRT), so effectively locking legacy applications out. This can be achieved by relatively simple changes in a few of system libraries, and so it can happen anytime. On the other hand, the same technique can be utilized for a useful enhancement of the Win32 API functionality, e.g. increased safety for .NET runtime applications, or even for all Windows applications, through application separation with contracts, for instance.

vjj

Edited by vjj Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:55 AM

Sunday, July 01, 2012 2:48 PM

We differ only in terminology, fortunately. For Win32k.sys contains IMPLEMENTATION of functions concerning windowing and graphics, it's usually labeled as a module that HANDLES them, in literature.

vjj

Then I misread your original argument. It sounded to me that you were stating that Win32k was the sole bread winner of windowing and graphics, dismissing the idea that GDI DDRAW and USER32 were part of the mix. So I apologize then.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Sunday, July 01, 2012 2:59 PM

to support the suggestion that the win32 layer could be represented with half in kernel and half in user. Do you agree with that?

It's also true that you will be able to run "legacy"(or whatever you want to call it) Desktop apps for a very long time regardless of Sinofsky's fantasies. You can say I told you so if/when it happens.

I do agree with you with only one caveat. Even when the Win32 API implementation in the Windows kernel will survive for a long time, access to it's functionality can be forcibly filtered through obligatory runtimes (e.g. WinRT), so effectively locking legacy applications out. This can be achieved by relatively simple changes in a few of system libraries, and so it can happen anytime. On the other hand, the same technique can be utilized for a useful enhancement of the Win32 API functionality, e.g. increased safety for .NET runtime applications, or even for all Windows applications, through application separation with contracts, for instance.

vjj

Well anything "can be" done. But what "can be" done and what "will be" done generally are two different things.

Don't forget that hardware vendors are forced to use Win32 in order to get their drivers to function with the kernel. If Microsoft removes Win32 from the system then hardware vendors around the world will go out of business for lack of interface to make their hardware function. This would mean a catastrophic (can't spell today) collapse in the hardware industry. Ok, ok, I am being extreme but I'm trying to get my point across. There are a ton of things that WinRT WILL NEVER (It's a fact) will never do that requires Win32. Microsoft will have to continue exposing Win32 in the OS in order to support, at the very least, hardware vendors. Let's not also forget that without Win32, game makers will be out of a job as well. Sure, WinRT can do video games using XNA, but even in the Xbox 360, XNA isn't used by everyone because it doesn't support a lot of the functions that most game vendors require. MMORPGs and other MMO-class games would not function under XNA, most other games like Battlefield 3 and MW3, Skyrim and the like don't use XNA either. Now granted that in the time-frame you guys are talking about that Microsoft would remove Win32 BF3 and Skyrim will probably be a historical game, it doesn't change the fact that XNA won't cut it. And WinRT won't support DirectX without going thru XNA (If you tell me that it will then I know for a fact your full of it because my company has developed some WinRT XNA games for testing and the devs have already complained about the lack of DirectX function support).

I still believe that several (probably more then 60%) of applications will end up being WinRT and less and less using Win32. But you can't get rid of Win32.

Regardless of what side your on tho, we are all speculating. None of us really know whats going to happen until we get there so the future may end up finding both side are wrong and Microsoft does a third option that none of us even know about. But I just don't see how Microsoft can remove Win32 and expect the system to keep functioning.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:12 PM

At the end of the day WinRT AND Windows could never survive without Win32. This is mostly due to the fact that Win32 is required for 3rd party drivers, filters, and extensions. It's already been stated (both in this forum, and by Microsoft directly) that WinRT is only a subset of the API. There are a ton of things that WinRT would have to be able to support from Win32 that it just won't be able to. Also, you can't get rid of Win32 and expect Windows Services (a major component of Windows) to work. There are things that WinRT just won't do. This is why Win32 will survive. Granted, in the long term there will be more WinRT applications then Win32 applications, I will give you that. But removing Win32, it's just not going to happen. At least not in my oppinion.
Also, for the record, WinRT DOES do Multithreading.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Ok, I would not quibble between "official" and "unofficial". If Microsoft is telling analysts that they see a future without Win32 APIs, then, I know, that this is the corporate strategy. If it succeeds, is another discussion altogether. Regarding drivers, I am sure that they can, and continue to add APIs to WinRT. I do not think, for one moment, that WinRT development is over. It is not.

But then again, the devices that WinRT would have to support (as a portable computing solution) are much, much more limited. In any case, as I said before, Win32 will continue existing even in the next iteration of Windows (Win9); However, I do not expect that any serious developer to be developing for Win32 at all. Even if developers doubt the Microsoft vision, I am sure that development would be re-oriented towards WinRT; I am sure that companies that provide complex computing experiences are strategizing, as we speak, of how to migrate their computing to the cloud. For example, there may be just another version of the Creative Suite CS (version 7.0), but there would not be anything beyond this. Adobe has already started its subscription model and it would continue down this path.

Very soon, all the Metro enthusiasts, would find how expensive computing would become in the new Microsoft world.

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:16 PM

ADRz, Then it sounds to me like you better hurry up and learn how to use Linux because Linux is the only OS (according to you) that doesn't do this. Apple has been doing the whole 20% thing on their Macs for almost a decade now (2003 if I'm not mistaken). *If* and I extreme stress the word *if* Microsoft really does this, then Linux will be your only alternative.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Linux would only be an answer if it becomes popular in the desktop. If not, nobody would develop for it and the situation would be about as bad as with Win8 circa 2014. Sure, there are a number of complex, windowing applications for Linux, but existing Windows programs are only supported through Wine and this has its limitations.

The best way forward for Linux is for a major player to develop a solution that would allow it to run all major Windows applications in an installation that would be transparent to the public. I think that Citrix can do this, but this company has serious "vision" problems.

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:21 PM

I have used Linux extensively. Not so much with desktop versions. The desktop versions I have used have far too many security checks all the time demanding the password to proceed.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:25 PM

I don't believe that Microsoft has said anything to Analysts. It's my experience that 90% of what Analysts say regarding a company is lies. We don't know for sure what Microsoft has said.

Just because an Analyst says that Microsoft told them something doesn't mean that Microsoft really did. Just like if I was an analyst and I told you the sky was red, it doesn't mean it's true. Just means I lie. I don't just blindly trust that people are telling the truth without facts.

I do agree that WinRT was build around devices that are much more limited then a full PC and I do believe that Cloud Services will pick up the power-slack left behind by the limited resources of mobile devices. However, it still does not mean that the desktop PC is going away. Microsoft will still have to support these systems and the only way to do that is Win32 (even in the long term). Now, if all the desktops disappeared then sure, WinRT would be all that is left. But seriously doubt that in the next 10 years the desktop will be gone. I don't see how WinRT would be able to support drivers because silo'ed (or isolated if you prefer) application layers wouldn't allow global system access which is required by drivers. I don't see how WinRT could support drivers without breaking away from isolation. The moment that WinRT removes isolation is the moment it becomes no different then Win32.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

Sunday, July 01, 2012 4:27 PM

I still believe that several (probably more then 60%) of applications will end up being WinRT and less and less using Win32. But you can't get rid of Win32.

Regardless of what side your on tho, we are all speculating. None of us really know whats going to happen until we get there so the future may end up finding both side are wrong and Microsoft does a third option that none of us even know about. But I just don't see how Microsoft can remove Win32 and expect the system to keep functioning.

Owner, Quilnet Solutions

You are just too sanguine. First of all, Microsoft has already moved to the post-PC world. Desktops and laptops are so passe. The world of hardware vendors is bound to suffer and suffer dramatically. Win8 has no use of complex GPUs (it has already flattened the interface, etc). Microsoft's vision is portable computers, mostly tablets and maybe, just maybe, some convertibles (similar to their surface). This is the Windows world of the future. Microsoft, in countless presentations, expects the desktop/laptop market to decline and remain enclosed in a small percentage of users. Thus, their vision of tomorrow is not one of a profusion of hardware vendors. Not at all. In fact, its vision of tomorrow is remarkably closer to that of Apple, whose shadow MS is chasing.

Thus, by Win10, I am almost certain that you would see a system that would be devoid of all Win32 APIs. You underestimate the financial incentive for Microsoft to make this happen. For any sale of a Win32 program, Microsoft is not collecting a penny. For every sale of a WinRT program, Microsoft would collect 30% of the sale price!!! If I were Microsoft and had such an incentive, I would just make sure to bury Win32 as fast as I possibly could.

Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:06 PM

You are just too sanguine. First of all, Microsoft has already moved to the post-PC world. Desktops and laptops are so passe. The world of hardware vendors is bound to suffer and suffer dramatically. Win8 has no use of complex GPUs (it has already flattened the interface, etc). Microsoft's vision is portable computers, mostly tablets and maybe, just maybe, some convertibles (similar to their surface). This is the Windows world of the future. Microsoft, in countless presentations, expects the desktop/laptop market to decline and remain enclosed in a small percentage of users. Thus, their vision of tomorrow is not one of a profusion of hardware vendors. Not at all. In fact, its vision of tomorrow is remarkably closer to that of Apple, whose shadow MS is chasing.

Thus, by Win10, I am almost certain that you would see a system that would be devoid of all Win32 APIs. You underestimate the financial incentive for Microsoft to make this happen. For any sale of a Win32 program, Microsoft is not collecting a penny. For every sale of a WinRT program, Microsoft would collect 30% of the sale price!!! If I were Microsoft and had such an incentive, I would just make sure to bury Win32 as fast as I possibly could.

OK let's take this one at a time.

" Desktops and laptops are so passe." - No matter how new and hot tablets are Microsoft still makes a majority of it's money on Windows 8 from Desktops and Servers. This may change but Microsoft isn't stupid. The end of the "PC" era as we now it may end one day but until it actually happens Microsoft will continue to support and innovate Windows on desktops.
"For every sale of a WinRT program, Microsoft would collect 30% of the sale price!!! " - You really think this is where Microsoft expects to makes it's money. This is just a cut to cover the cost for infrastructure of the sale and distribution of developer applications. You have to consider all that is required to sales and distribute application to the world. This takes all the requirement off me to handle payment, storage, and distribution of applications. After an app makes $25k Microsoft drops the cost to only 20%. This is better than most store available and you get a much bigger customer base.
"If I were Microsoft and had such an incentive, I would just make sure to bury Win32 as fast as I possibly could." - Glad you are not running Microsoft because this would be a terrible idea. There no reason to remove Win32 to make a few pennies (relative to Microsoft's income). This would be ridiculous.

Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:32 PM

Windows represents a huge investment in capital. Enough to have a material effect on the US GDP.

Microsoft has spend countless billions to develop Windows and the next release cost billions more.

Windows is regulated to an extent. That is why MP, backup etc are not very good. They have to be that way.

The move to tablets is what is motivating Microsoft to change. The new Surface tablets are a new direction for Microsoft.

Windows MVP 2011-12, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Hardcore Games, Legendary is the only Way to Play

Sunday, July 01, 2012 7:07 PM

...Win8 has no use of complex GPUs (it has already flattened the interface, etc).

Still going with that one huh? "Of course, people can move over to Google docs or something similar for free!!" Double exclamation points! I was waiting for the Google plug. There are millions of LOB and 3rd party apps that integrate deeply with Office. Google docs isn't a viable replacement in many instances, period.

...You underestimate the financial incentive for Microsoft to make this happen.

Microsoft isn't going to cut it's own throat to make money from an app store, which it's already been pointed out isn't 100% profit. It would erode their user base to cut off Win32 before there was a viable replacement. They benefit more from having BOTH. Profits from Office alone will dwarf any app store income so it doesn't make sense to completely cut off the massive installed base of users that rely on Win32. That's why it won't happen.

"The world of hardware vendors is bound to suffer and suffer dramatically"

They are already suffering because of competition with tablets and other mobile devices. With Windows 8 there will be a new class of hardware devices that consumers and businesses will actually want to buy in addition to the usual desktop and laptops. Those who can design proper devices will do quite well.

Sunday, July 01, 2012 8:21 PM

.Still going with that one huh? "Of course, people can move over to Google docs or something similar for free!!" Double exclamation points! I was waiting for the Google plug. There are millions of LOB and 3rd party apps that integrate deeply with Office. Google docs isn't a viable replacement in many instances, period.

...You underestimate the financial incentive for Microsoft to make this happen.

Microsoft isn't going to cut it's own throat to make money from an app store, which it's already been pointed out isn't 100% profit. It would erode their user base to cut off Win32 before there was a viable replacement. They benefit more from having BOTH. Profits from Office alone will dwarf any app store income so it doesn't make sense to completely cut off the massive installed base of users that rely on Win32. That's why it won't happen.

It was not my statement that complex, windowing operations would move to the cloud long-term. Microsoft has been stating this. Yes, I would agree that Office is preferable to Google Docs but integration of programs into Office would not be feasible in cloud computing. Thus, this gives an opening to Google Docs.

I find it amazing that people are so ready to discount the huge profits to be made from the Windows Marketplace. The possibilities there are endless for Microsoft. The income from the Marketplace can far exceed the income from Windows. The following will give you an idea: Let's say that in 3-years time, Microsoft has sold something like 600 million Win8 computers (a likely underestimate). If Microsoft realizes just $20 per year per user from app sales in the marketplace, we are talking about $12 billion of net profit, just for selling apps that somebody else has coded!!! Wow!! and this does not count the hundreds of millions that Microsoft stands to make from sales of content: books, music, movies and video. In fact, as net profits go, these are simply huge. What makes them particularly attractive is that they are essentially pure profit with little Microsoft effort there. If you have had such an incentive, would you not bury Win32??

If, however, most of the applications are still Win32 programs, these cannot be sold through Windows Marketplace and Microsoft cannot collect a penny on their sale. I can bet that Microsoft would be providing generous incentives to developers for apps and games coded for WinRT.

Thus, those who think that WinRT is just a minor side-show and Windows, (even with the Metro UI) would remain very much the same going forward, they have some surprises coming. WinRT is so crucial to Microsoft, that the company has decided to create and sell its own hardware.

Win8, coupled with Microsoft's huge incentives from WinRT and strategy, marks really the end of Windows as we knew it. Microsoft has just re-imagined it with an eye to corporate profits! I really do not blame the company, they should target to make as much money as they can. We, as users, would need to adapt...this is the only constant.

Edited by ADRz Sunday, July 01, 2012 8:26 PM

Sunday, July 01, 2012 9:08 PM

Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

Silly me.

With disk drives getting smaller and slower, and processors on the decline, it's ludicrous to think that a new version of any system should be MORE complex than its predecessor.

Erm, maybe that's people's brains I'm thinking of.

If Microsoft didn't let us down slowly, get us gently back to doing things like farming and carrying devices that you can only one thing at a time on, for example, what would we do when the apocolyptic failure of government and modern society happens? We're all just processing the same information over and over anyway, might as well do it serially. We should thank them from weaning us all from this complex, stress-inducing crap.

-Noel

Detailed how-to in my eBooks:

Sunday, July 01, 2012 10:22 PM

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