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Poor Host System Performance after RC1 Update (RTM as Well)
Poor Host System Performance after RC1 Update (RTM as Well)
- Note: This is a "growth" from forum http://forums.technet.microsoft.com/en-US/winserverhyperv/thread/3dc7af06-3be1-4ebb-9108-d685aef06ecd.
After installing the Hyper-V RC1 update, the OS started to perform very poorly in a few areas. I experienced a decrease in performance as if my graphic card had an issue. The system just became stricken with lag when:
- Opening photos
- Initially loading a video
- Resizing Zune
- Connecting to and Resizing a RDP session
- Browser window (seems spontaneous though most likely the content loaded)
- Visual Studio 2008 (only) property drop down lists
- Intel Q6600
- MSI nForce 680i MB
- 4x 2GB Corsair XMS 2 DDR 2
- MSI GeForce 8800
- 2x WD Raptor 10k rpm
- 2x 22" Gateway LCDs
Thanks,
Zac
Addition:
I should probably mention that it affects audio playback durring the time of lag/jitter. Music and sounds start to break appart just as the mouse and responsiveness in general.- Edited byZac T B Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:56 PMAddition
Answers
Just to be clear - there is no "quick fix" here. Fixing this in Hyper-V is a very large investment, and offering to just disable WDDM would mean asking all video card manufacturers to develop two sets of video drivers for Windows.
Trust me - we do hear your pain and understand the scenario - and if there was a quick fix it would already be in the product. But there is not - which is why we are in this situation.
Cheers,
Benjamin Armstrong
============================
Windows Virtualization
Senior Lead Program Manager
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.- Marked As Answer byMike Sterling [MSFT]MSFT, OwnerThursday, June 18, 2009 5:49 PM
All Replies
- Which OS is performing poorly? The parent OS, the OS on the physical machine? Or the OS in a virtual machine?
Your title line mentions poor performance in RTM. RTM is not just for the Hyper-V server, it is also for the virtual machines. You should apply the final version of Hyper-V instead of using RC1. Download the patch to upgrade to the final version of Hyper-V: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=F3AB3D4B-63C8-4424-A738-BADED34D24ED&displaylang=en. After installing it, upgrade Integration Services on all of your virtual machines.
Here are a few comments about graphics in Hyper-V virtual machines. Hyper-V is intended for supporting server applications. Translation: Little or no video interaction. The graphics capabilities of a Hyper-V virtual machine are quite limited. Your Hyper-V virtual machines are not using your 8800 video card. They are using an emulated 4 MB video card. Both the Vista graphics and gaming graphics in Hyper-V are rated at 1.0. You can't expect much video performance out of 4 MB.- Edited byJohn Paul CookMVP, ModeratorSunday, June 29, 2008 6:50 PMclarify comment about video performance
The performance of the host degraded significantly when RC1 or RTM of Hyper-V is installed. The guests work great other then opening the initial window (see above comment about RDP having poor performance).
Just opening IE or Firefox takes 100% CPU, scrolling down on a website with any graphics takes 100% cpu, opening any media files also maxes out the cpu. After the 20 to 30 seconds to open the things the cpu utilization goes back to normal until it has to render new graphics. I originally found this after updating to RC-1 on my machine and trying to give a class on Server 2008. It was kind of embarrassing touting how great 2008 is when it was performing terribly on the machine I was demoing with. I was hoping that RTM would resolve the issue, but it didn't. If I remove the Hyper-V role everything goes back to wonderful performance.Do you have a single network card shared by all? I find that when I do large file copies, everything slows down a lot.
- Sorry I had the the word host in there but I guess when I was retyping it was edited out. Definitly the host os as I can play games perfectly on it. Games, however, initially start off horible just like loading the files I or George mentioned. As for the virtual machines, they have always been updated to the new components if not rebuilt completely (to better organize the snapshots). Any vpc I connect to, unless performing the installations, would be through rdp. I have two seperate network cards, one is used only by the virtual machines. But this situation occurs with the vpc's on, off, saved, non-existant. As George mentioned, it hasn't been like this forever, the RC1 update is when it started. He has tested this with clean system installs as well as just removing the hyper-v role (as it removes/disables/etc any of the updates associated to it).
- After reading more about this, this seems that you and others are experiencing something I haven't seen. But I did see slow performance over the weekend. I installed a third party application into a virtual machine. It performed horribly and so did the parent partition. What is significant is that the third party application required a Microsoft Loopback Adapter configured with a nonroutable IP address. There was a conflict between this and some part of the virtual networking. Using a different nonroutable IP address that didn't conflict resolved the performance problems.
There is a very low chance it is related to networking hardware/adapters (virtual or other). This occurs immediately after the RC1 update is installed on the host system; with or without virtual machines and virtual network adaptors created. Basically once the computer is restarted from the update even on a clean install the system starts to perform poorly.
It seems highly likely that the issue is occurring between the host os/system and the RC1 and/or RTM update(s). When I have a chance I'm going to create an item in the Windows Server 2008 Connect site. George, if you want to put your "official" two cents in, I'll include with mine.
This is a real problem because of all the MOSS/SQL/PS implementations my company does, I've been pitching Hyper-V but currently I'm in no position to demo. I'm trying as hard as I can to have them hold off from any more VMWare products...- Dumb question - but if you disable the desktop experience feature, does that make any difference?
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. - I definitely can confirm that problem.
I have just installed a brand new Win 2008 Server std., updated Hyper-V role to RTM and created just one guest for testing. I did not install software on the host and did not twaek any settings.
While performance inside the guest is acceptable, host performance is extremely poor. It takes around 1min to start Server Manager while looking at Task Manager the server is doing nothing at all.
/Klaus Mike, far from dumb but yes, it still happends when the desktop experience feature is uninstalled.
I have the same experience that Zac has. Doesn’t seem to matter if I have desktop experience on or not, expect that performance is worse when you turn transparencies on. That is to be expected though because transparencies are graphic intensive and the machine is having problems with graphic intense applications. BTW, pre install of Hyper-V with Aero and everything turned on runs great on this machine. If I install Hyper-V with Aero it puts the cpu at 100% and takes 20 seconds to resize a window.
- Edited byChristopher M. Summers Tuesday, July 01, 2008 7:27 PMgrammar
- George, could you rephrase that last post. Are you saying a clean install of hyper-v with the slipstream RTM install method creates a perfect system (as in pre-RC1 update)?
or
I think you are mentioning the situation of how everything ran smooth before the RC1 compaired to now with RC1 or with RTM updates installed.
NOTE: It is the initial loading or transition of the graphic intensive applications. Although that is almost missleading as that opening a 500kb jpg would fall into this category. Also, I can run the latest games. At first when the game loads it sits there just striving to transition from windows to the game, once the game is up and going it works FANTASIC (better than Vista)... however, if I say, hit alt-tab and transition back to windows, the system staggers at 100% cpu. Then something 'catches' and we are running. If I alt-tab back into the game, expect to stagger again, then once that is over with (mine is approx 30-60 seconds for games, 30 seconds for image, video, RDP) the game goes back to rendering fine. I should note that I have one heck of a wind tunnel for a tower so heat wouldn't be a problem.
The root of all this is the initial transition of a window/application. Once say an image is opened, I can zoom in with ease and scroll around it. Videos are similar; In WMP, when I load a video the system just boggs down for approx 30 seconds then plays perfectly. I have the ability to skoot all over the video and pause, resume without problem. However, transfering to fullscreen is the same experiance as alt-tabing from a game; resizing is similar to a photo but not as bad and if I hit the stop button, the pc staggers just as it does with the initial loading the video. If I just open WMP without any video initializing the loading, it works great (probably why stop, which unloads the video halters everything).
NOTE 2: None of these problems have anything to do with hosted virtuals as it happends with and without creating them (or virtual networks for that matter). George and myself have pretty hefty machines so resources aren't an issue. We both however have NVidia cards, mine is a GeForce 8800GTX and his is a Quatro. Perhaps something in the RC1 update changed the way the video card drivers interact with Hyper-V. Oh yea, Connecting to a child performs the same as RDP, WMP, photos, etc...
@Klaus, what are your system specs? - What I mean to say is that before Hyper-V is on the system it runs wonderful. After Hyper-V (RC1 or RTM) is on the system performance degrades.
I am seeing exactly the same thing that Zac is. For example, once an AVI is started and has stopped being choppy, it works great.
- Edited byChristopher M. Summers Tuesday, July 01, 2008 8:51 PMSpelling
- Same thing started with RC1 on my 4 GB Dell Precision 290 and IBM T61 laptop. RTM did not fix it.
Not a show stopper, but my VM friends laugh at me, so this isn't good PR for Microsoft. Other than this glitch, I really love Hyper-V.
Guest can be shut off and the problem is still there. It does go away when you remove the role, and returns when you add the role back in.
MVP - SCCM Just wanted to add my $0.02. I too am experiencing the same problem. Seems the host system video performance is very poor and CPU usage is very high any time I try to open photos, view videos on websites, start playing games. This usually clears up after a few minutes. Did notice too that trying to open a video in full screen also caused audio jitter for the 2-3 minutes the host system tried to open the video. Sometimes the video looked up and Windows then asked me to close Internet Explorer.
Updating drivers for my SATA AHCI controllers, video card, sound card, NICS all made no difference. Uninstalled the RTM Hyper-V role and this problem went away.
My system hardware:
Intel E6600
ASUS P5B Deluxe
2 x 2GB OCZ DDR2 PC6400
EVGA 8800 GTS - Nvidia driver 175.19
1 x WD Raptor
2 x WD WD400YR
- I have the same issue. Being an MCSE student I run Server 2008 as Workstation OS. After installing Hyper-V for testing, my host system became slower. When I open IE, my music (I have Winamp running all the time) gives a small hickup. When I start a game, the music even stops for a few seconds. Uninstalling the service solves everything. I have updated RC1 to RTM, but the issue remains.
When I started a game, I got this error, after my music froze and my screen blacked out for 10 seconds:
Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered.
This is part of the nVidia driver system.
So at the moment, I am suspecting nVidia drivers of this problem. As far as I can see, everyone in this topic is using an nVidia displaycard as well. I haven't checked the specs of the laptops mentioned here though.
Next week I will be switching to an ATI/AMD VGA card, maybe this will solve the problem. If so, we know it's the nVidia driver.
Specs:
Intel Q6600 2.4 @ 3.0 GHz
Gigabyte P35C-DS3R
4x 1GB Corsair PC6400 4-4-4-12 @ 800
Asus GeForce 6600GT - 169.25 driver- Edited byRuud van Strijp Saturday, July 05, 2008 6:10 PMCan't use [quote]-tags
- Edited byRuud van Strijp Saturday, July 05, 2008 6:12 PMForgot to mention I'm using RTM version.
- I tried troubleshooting this some more and I agree that this might be an Nvidia driver problem. I installed an old beater PCI video card and used the Standard VGA driver. The problem went away. This lead me to try the Standard VGA driver with my Nvidia 8800 GTS and it also worked fine. As soon as I installed the Nvidia driver the problem reappeared. I don't have any newer non-Nvidia PCIe cards to test with but would be curious to others results with an ATI card. I submitted a bug report to Nvidia for what its worth about the issue.
- Unmarked As Answer byZac T B Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:24 PM
- Edited byNPrice Saturday, July 05, 2008 8:56 PMtypo
- Marked As Answer byMike Sterling [MSFT]MSFT, OwnerSunday, July 06, 2008 8:51 PM
- The ATI card came in today, and as expected: Without the nVidia drivers, Hyper-V runs smooth as a hot knife through butter :P
Next step is to find out what exactly gives the problems... A certain piece of the ForceWare drivers, or does Hyper-V call some API's that are strange or so...- Proposed As Answer byRuud van Strijp Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:22 PM
- Unmarked As Answer byZac T B Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:24 PM
- Marked As Answer byZac T B Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:23 PM
- Thanks for the update about the ATI card and was what I suspected too. I have tried many versions of Nvidia'a Forceware drivers from the last 18 months. All of them caused the issue though the really old one v100 era seemed to be marginally better. For the moment I have had to give up and use the Standard VGA driver.
One of the memebers of the Windows Virtualization team replied earlier and basically said that they are aware of the issue but do not recommend using Hyper-V in this manner either. Can't say that I blame them but only hope someone fixes it. Thanks everyone for helping narrow down the problem. At first I felt like I was more crazy than usually. So now I should ask if anyone knows a better way than connect to get this bug addressed?
- Awe man this can't be. Just for all of us consultants as well as the Microsoft employee's who have been using Virtual PC or VMWare... on their notebooks to present software to clients, this is not good. A random guess would be that 50% are ATI, 50% are NVidia and 10% are Intel (I know, I know). Anyway, I already have Server 2008 with Hyper-V on the workstation I've been referencing my comments about as well as one of my two HP notebooks. They are both fast but the slower of the two I just remembered is the one with ATI which I don't have Server 2008 installed on.
This would have been a fantastic portable demo machine:
Windows Server 2008 w/ Hyper-V installed on the notebook.
Hyper-V setup to use the second hdd bay for the virtuals.
And VPCS of:
Server Core as DHCP & DC
SQL Server 2005
SharePoint 2007
That was just for starters, I planned on setting up Exchange and then Communication Server...
I already had some clients interested while I displayed Hyper-V through Live Meeting with my workstation. I figured that if they saw all that going on in a < 3ghz dual core laptop with < 2gb ram, Windows Server 2008 would be a no brainer. As of the RC1 update, I can't even use Live Meeting effectively on my workstation. It will hang for almost a minute while switching shared content.
I'm wailing as loud as I can, Virtualization Team can you hear me!? - Wow, I see my laptop that has the issue isn't NVidia, but Intel 965. So now I'm guessing we're not looking for a new driver from NVidia, but instead a hotfix from Microsoft. Does someone from Microsoft monitor this list? Has this issue been reported?
MVP - SCCM - I also have this issue. I'm running a Q6600, 4GB RAM, 2x WD 500GB, an evga 9800GTX, and a DFI X38 motherboard. While I had hyper-v installed, my system was very sluggish, and I was greatly considering just wiping this install. However, as soon as I disabled hyper-v, the system is very responsive again, even with all the eye-candy enabled. I didn't actually set up a VM by that point, I was more worried about solving the performance issues first.
- Hi Guys, having exactly the same issue:
Phenom 7950
Gigabyte 790x Motherboard
8gb Corsair RAM
7900gt
2 x 500gb SATA RAID 0
Is it confirmed its limited to NVIDIA cards?
Trying to do my 2008 Server Studies and System is running like ____, so was gonna go get a new Radeon 4850.
Thanks Guys - This is working as intended. Remember, when you add the Hyper-V role to a system, the installed OS becomes the parent partition, and is actually running virtualized as well (just with access to devices installed in the system). Best practices for Hyper-V include running it as the only role or feature on the system.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. - My question then would be why does it only happen to some systems and why did it only appear in RC1? On the server 2008 as a workstation forum there was a post about people that changed video cards and updated chipset drivers and this went away. It seems to me that if this was intentional it would happen to all Hyper-V systems. Also, this seriously kills other guests OS's because it eats 100% of the CPU. When I try to open up a guest it take 100% CPU time for almost a minute. During that time the other systems become unresponsive.
- No. Let's not sweep this under the carpet. If Microsoft wants Hyper-V to be competitive with VMWare, it will have to address issues like this. Perception alone should drive a resolution to this issue, but this is also a performance issue. Anyone who experiences the problem will not take Hyper-V to be a serious competitor. This is a good product with great potential. This year, all eyes are on virtualization. We don't want negative buzz this early in the game.
MVP - SCCM - I'm checking with the dev team to confirm that my post is the case. My understanding was that the perf differential in the parent partition (especially if you add the desktop experience) was expected.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. - Just to be clear, this isn't a desktop experience issue. We all expect that turning it on can cause performance issues, we all also realize that best practice dictates that Hyper-V be the only role installed. The issue is that once RC1 and now RTM of Hyper-V was released anything graphical in the host OS has serious performance problems. This includes opening a guest OS through Hyper-V manager on the server, downloading a patch from Microsoft (because IE has to scroll through graphics), reading a document that has screen shots, as well as any of the desktop experience type of things (pictures, video, music, etc). I cannot in good conscience recommend Hyper-V to any of my customers because if they have the need to do any of the above things (all of which could easily be expected to happen other then the desktop experience stuff) the CPU will race to 100% for up to several minutes and all of the guest OS's will become unresponsive.
Previous to RC1 I had none of the performance issues described. The instant I installed RC1 these became an issue.
- I'm going to emphasize on George's post. Graphical is used here in the sense of anything that is rendered. So if you right click a guest and connect, everything locks up. IE, everything locks up. Open an XPS or PDF and the system locks up. There is not a single way I would see a developer working on this, noticing this, and excepting this. We all are not talking small here, this is an extreme problem. I can't think of anything to compare this to.
- yeah great thread !
i thought that I am having problem with my drivers or sth but after reading this thread i know that this is nvidia issue. So this thread is bookmarked and I will check it for solution.
My PC specification:
C2Q 9300
Gigabyte EP35c-DS3R Intel P35 chipset
4GB Ram
Nvidia 8800 GT
- Hey Guys -
THANK YOU for this thread. I've literally been trying to figure out what's wrong with my workstation for weeks now. About my computer:
Dell Dimension 9200: nVidia 7900GS, 4GB RAM Core2 Duo 2.8GHz, P965 chipset, SigmaTel Audio. I can't tell you all of the things I did to try to diagnose my performance issues. I understand that Hyper-V is considered a server role, but many workstations (like mine) need it. Basically, the "host" OS becomes really choppy (sound chops, video freezes for about 200ms, very erratic performance). It's acts like some hardware interrupt is not letting go of some exclusive resource, and for 100-200ms EVERYTHING in the OS stops.
I replaced the nVidia card with a ATI 4850 (great card, but you can heat your home in the winter with it) and the integrated audio with a Creative Audigy X-Fi. No improvement. Removed SATA devices, upgraded to the latest Intel P965 drivers (8.2.0.1011). No improvement. Turned of Themes, Defender, Firewall, everything I possibly could. No improvement. Removed the Hyper-V RTM Role, and BOOM, the system smoothed out -- no more "hiccups" where the system freezes for 100-200ms, just smooth goodness.
MSFT -- I'm OK with paying a perf penalty for Hyper-V, but there's something WRONG here with the system (is it the P965 drivers aren't good enough for virtualization, or is it Hyper-V itself?) Having the system pause and "chop" on high CPU utilization isn't acceptable, even in a server environment where it's not as pronounced. My recommendation to you: stress test Hyper-V on the P965 chipset. Play some music while taxing the system -- change video modes while the music plays or launch a 3D app on the host -- that's the most pronounced way to realize the stutters in the system.
This is a development workstation, so IMHO it's totally appropriate to expect a level of responsiveness with Hyper-V installed as well. I guess Hyper-V just isn't ready yet. Other than this, I love it, though. Too bad. MSFT, you need to escalate this.
-Dave Markle - So since the host is working in a virtualized environment, I figured I'd install the integration services stuff to see if that helped. No dice.
I have tried standard VGA and now the Microsoft virtual machine video bus drivers too on the host. In both cases, the slowdowns are gone. One thing to note is that hardware acceleration is enabled with both of these drivers. With the NVidia Quadro 285 drivers, that's grayed out. Did the RC1 change forget to include host acceleration?
Standard VGA is no real solution since the drivers rarely match the monitor's resolution and there is no dual screen option.
I'd like this issue resolved because it's obvious Hyper-V is taking a beating in the forums and blogs (example A, B, C). Anyone who has seen the problem, will never take Hyper-V seriously. I'd also like to see Microsoft use it all the time for demos. Generally we see MS demo products using Virtual PC and they always have to apologize for the performance. There would be nothing to apologize for if they were using Hyper-V without this issue and in fact, they could run many more machines concurrently.
MVP - SCCM - Brian Mason said:To be fair, since my blog post is referenced as Example A, I was not giving Hyper-V a beating. I was simply pointing out that Hyper-V is not, in my opinion, fit for the workstation. Hyper-V isn't pitched as a workstation product though, it's intended to be applied in a server environment (running a headless Server Core installation even, if you can). I simply hoped it would work as a workstation product, but found otherwise.
I'd like this issue resolved because it's obvious Hyper-V is taking a beating in the forums and blogs (example A, B, C). Anyone who has seen the problem, will never take Hyper-V seriously.
I didn't find anything that made me think it was a horrible server-side product. I wouldn't dream of putting VMware Server ESX on my laptop either, now I know the same is true of Hyper-V. It's not because they're defective products, they're just not intended for me to watch hours of "The Office" on them. ;)
The real issue here is that Microsoft VPC and Microsoft Virtual Server are both disappointment when compared to even the free offerings from VMware, which is what drove me to give Hyper-V a shot. I had hoped Hyper-V would fill that need since I'm already running Win2k8, but in my eyes the sensible thing for Microsoft to do is improve their workstation virtualization products (gimme a VPC-V ;) rather than hindering Hyper-V with code to improve graphics or allow me to bind to wireless NICs (which Hyper-V developers have said would be a very cumbersome task).- Edited byMikey Cooper Monday, August 11, 2008 5:29 PMstupid typo...
- Sorry to call you out specifically. Those were just some random samples of negative Hyper-V posts I found. There are lots more. And since I love the product, I really want others to love it too.
If you had tried Hyper-V back before RC1, you'd have seen that there was no slowdown issue. That it was just what you were looking for when you tested it; something that could replace Virtual PC and Virtual Server. Something that would be perfect to demo products because it is so fast and clean that you could run many machines at the same time without feeling slowdowns. Something the presenter would never have to apologize for and say "it's a VM". Prior to RC1, you'd never know if a machine was a VM guest or host or if it was physical. The performance was outstanding.
My hope is that there is some easy fix here to return that performance since it was solid until RC1.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - Mikey,
Hyper-V kind of needs a beating, maybe a silent one. As for a Server 2008 workstation, this should be a perfect one. I've been using it from the beta's and man it has felt like a dream machine. It is really all about the update bits for Hyper-V because Win Server 2008 RTM with Hyper-V RC0 LOADED with server apps (MOSS Ent, SQL Ent, AD, etc) on the host and various guest machines which were also LOADED (MOSS, SQL, all the dev tools) still ran like a dream machine. I had/have some big plans as I can run Server 2008 w/ Hyper-V on my laptops (with wireless nic) with a whole simulation environment setup. Right now with those particular issues, well it is hard translating them because when most people hear of them they respond, as some of the responses in this thread, that it is the typical performance hits you would expect to occur when running another machine virtually. However, the true problem lies within the drivers somewhere.
I really am thinking that we have finally started to convey the problem properly though. This, as a workstation or a server, is not working as intended. I'm not sure how many individuals are effected but it appears that us unlucky ones are of a smaller group. One that spilled through the RC1 testing holes.
For myself I only truly realized what happened once I had already updated to the RTM version. If you have the ability, try a fresh Server 2008 install and leave out any Hyper-V updates. You will quickly notice that the hopes you had are really there, they're just hidden somewhere...
As Brian just mentioned as I was typing, hopefully there is some easy fix because it was working before.
Just as an observation: We have all been pointing fingers at NVidia (usually stuff's their fault) but what I've been noticing is that people with this issue are typically using either the Intel Quad Core or Core 2 Duo machines. There is the exception of that one guy who is having the problems and he is only using an Intel graphics card and the fellow David Markle who said he tried both NVidia and ATI. David has a Core 2 Duo though and I'm not sure what the other guy is using. This is a little interesting.
Any thoughts anyone?
Zac - I throughout the entire beta never even tried using it as a workstation... I am as is stated tempted to give this a go if performance was actually that good before.... My next rebuild was going to be a Server 2008 Workstation though I wasn't going to put Hyper-V on it.
Edit: Stop Online shopping, its 2am, A couple of new HDD's and P2V my current workstation into a 2008 RTM with RC0 Hyper-V :P
Cheers, Stephen Edgar- Edited byStephen Edgar Monday, August 11, 2008 3:53 PMI'm tired :D
- Well don't give up just yet. Performance was good enough before the RC1 update to make me commit my best efforts to help get this issue resolved.
- I wonder if it's a chipset compatibility thing... How many of us here are running the Intel P965 or G965 chipsets? (Device Manager -> System Devices -> "Intel P965/G965 PCI Express Port Root"?
You know, I would certainly be retiscent to use Hyper-V in a *serious* production scenario if MSFT can't get it performing even acceptably in a single-user workstation scenario. I understand that hypervisors are a tough thing to program, but hey, that's the market.
Now go forth, my friends in Redmond, and COMPETE by creating a comptitive product! - "Intel ICH8 Family PCI Express Root Port" on my machine.
- ICH8 here as well.
- ICH7 and ICH8 here.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - ICH8 here.
- You can add me to the list of the affected. I'm using Hyper-V in a production environment on HP DL380-G5 servers with no apparent performance issues. The HP Servers use an old ATI video chip.
I installed Server 2008 with the Hyper-V role on a Dell Latitude D620 (4GB RAM) with an NVIDIA QUADRO NVS 110M video card. Video performance slowed to a crawl. I had to remove the Hyper-V role and all is well again. Note that I just installed the role; I was not running any virtual machines.
I love Hyper-V and Server 2008. Hate this performance issue. Would really love it if this gets fixed soon.
Cheers,
Peter - Hello,
same exact problem here.
I have a Lenovo T61P running a nVidia Quadro FX 570M.
To identify the issue root I had to install various times a fresh copy of Windows Server 2008 standard. In the final one:
1) I completed the installation, logged in, added the "Desktop Experience" feature and the "Hyper-v" role, rebooted, logged back in, tried opening pictures and looking at videos and everything worked well2) I then installed the latest nVidia drivers for my laptop, rebooted, logged back in and suddenly opening even a 10KB jpg takes 10+ seconds
The issue is NOT due to the "Desktop Experience" feature because in another test installation I did not install this feature and yet I experienced this issue.
Also, the issue is not due to 3 Hyper-v services running, because even turning them off the issue still stays.
I tried changing the order of installation of the Hyper-v update, the Hyper-v role and the nVidia drivers but nothing seems to work.
To the moment the only solution is to run the Microsoft graphic drivers and not nVidia's.
Unfortunately since nVidia drivers do not exist for Windows Server 2008 and using Vista's drivers on a Windows Server 2008 machine is something done at one's risk, a ticket cannot even be opened with nVidia.
The issue is reasonably due to the fact that both the nVidia graphic card and Hyper-v use the virtualization capabilities of the CPU.
Regards,
Bob- Edited bySunday Developer Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:26 PMtypo
- Edited bySunday Developer Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:57 PMediting issue
- Edited bySunday Developer Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:56 PMa few more details
- I know that everyone here is using NVidia except for one fellow. I know with NVidia we are all using one version or another of the same GeForce driver. Those of us with NForce MB's are using the ForceWare. So basically beyond the standard (documented) version changes, we are all using the same drivers. I'm not sure about the GeForce Go cards though. Anyway, ATI, again I'm not familiar, it's been a long long time; if I remember right and looking at their website I'm not to sure but it seems that they have a few different cards using different drivers. Perhaps some driver sets are effected from both manufacturers. The main target server hardware is probably using something Quadro family, if they even have that kind of power. So this wouldn't come up. I just don't understand how it slipped through the cracks as us in the community and partner programs are most definitely going to run this locally, laptop or perhaps a small server at the office. At least to get the ball rolling. Most of us have systems that would be effected by this. I think I should also add a signature to my posts making sure to reiterate the fact that desktop experience is not the issue.
*Not a Desktop Experience Issue*
*My blank screensaver chucks the system into a halt for 30 seconds or so* - OK, so going back to success with the standard VGA driver. It works, but it's extremely limited.
I've used the XP x64 drivers and the issue has gone away. Response is back to normal and all the driver functionality is back (true color, dual monitor, etc.).
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - I know you are really clear but I just want to double check. You installed the XP x64 drivers on your parent partition, they installed properly and fixed the issue?
- That is affirmative. Install the XP x64 drivers on the host and the performance is back completely.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM Compacting disk but the moment I'm done I'll be there.
- Okay, so it installed without a problem. I let Windows reboot, gave it time to get the services up and running. I loaded Zune, played a full song before I did anything. Then I opened two RDP windows and crash, blue screen. The culpret was nv4_mini.sys. Have you had this occur yet? I wasn't running anything other than what I mentioned (and sql, iis, hyper-v services [but no vpc's]).
- I see I have nv4_mini.sys as one of the many drivers for the video and its version is 6.14.11.6996. All is well including the guest which I RDP'd into from the host with no BSOD.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - As soon as I finished that last post, I launched another rdp window and the same crash happend. My nv4_mini.sys is version 6.14.11.7516. What download did you use?
- The only 169 driver I see is Forceware. Is that what you are using?
ForceWare Release 169 WHQL 169.21 December 19, 2007 - I used the Quadro driver, selected the 285 and XP x64 for the driver. Since it is a Quadro.
I'm downloading an Intel 965 for my laptop to see how the XP x64 version does there.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - Ah that's right you've got the Quadro. I think I'm going to try that 169.21 driver for my 8800GTX. If that doesn't work I'm going to have to put this on hold until a little later. I'll let you know.
- With an 8800GTX, why not select GeForce instead of Forceware?
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - GeForce was the first crash problem. I nabbed the Forceware because it had to closes version number to you before I realized we had different cards. Figured I'd give it a try anyway. Well, they are now installed with an nv4_mini.sys version of 6.14.11.69.21. I'm about to load the rdp window(s). I'll be back...
- Okay, I have two RDP windows open without a crash so far. I'm going to stay away from my virtuals for a while until I know performance is a little more stable. Anyone wanting to try it out, I'm using the Intel Q6600 with a GeForce 8800 GTX 756mb and an NForce 680i. The driver version is:
ForceWare Release 169 WHQL 169.21 December 19, 2007
Good luck, I know I'll need it. - Intel 965 XP x64 video driver on the laptop is showing perfect performance and I can RDP to other machines fine.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - I know it's only been an hour but man it's nice without the jitter. I can move my rdp windows between monitors without waiting 30 seconds for the system to catch up. Oh, should probably mention that there is no Aero, just Aero Basic which I could care less about at the moment.
- Luckily, Aero is still working on my Dell Precision 390 and my Lenova T61. Guess it depends on how the XP x64 driver is written. But I'd be happy to live without it.
Again, I see laptops as being crucial for Hyper-V since the opportunity to demo many clients can be so beneficial. In the world of SMS\SCCM, we do demos all the time where clients and servers are performing various functions together and with Hyper-V you get more guests working leaner than ever before.
I just see that with the Vista\2008 drivers, many admins will install Hyper-V, see that host performance is so bad, that they don't even bother to try to move on and see how well the clients perform. In this year where virtualization is the hot ticket, it's vital Hyper-V get a foot hold early and not be dismissed because of a bug.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - I can't speak to the stability of it, as I've only been using the drivers for 10 minutes or so, but I can definitely confirm that downgrading to the WinXP display drivers Zac B linked to resolved my multimedia stuttering when I added the Hyper-V role back. Also no Aero for me, as Zac mentions, as they're not WDDM drivers.
- I'm still alive.
- Isn't there a more recent release of the Forceware XP 64 drivers?
Bob- Edited bySundayDeveloper Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:18 PMerror
- I thought I'd put in my penny's worth. I am experiencing similar problems. The setup I have is
Intel X9770
ASUS P5E
4 * 2GB DDR2 PC6400
ZOTAC 8600 GTS - nVidia driver 175.19
2 x Seagate Barracuda 250GB HD
I am a developer building a number of Windows Forms and WPF applications. I have only recently moved to windows 2008 mainly because I felt that Hyper-V was an ideal solution for testing my applications. I have to test the applications in multiple OS and network environments. I have enabled the Desktop Experience and selected the Aero theme so that I can test the Vista themed controls in my WPF application.
I initially started to notice issues with DevStudio, the properties window in the WPF editor would take 6 seconds (with CPU at 100%) from clicking on a dropdown list to it being displayed - very frustrating. I also noticed that my application would pause for 2 seconds (with CPU 100%) just before it displayed its main window. If I paused my application when the CPU hit 100% it would always be at this point.
PresentationCore.dll!System.Windows.Media.Composition.DUCE.Channel.SyncFlush() + 0x74 bytes
I have tried to install the latest beta x64 Nvidia drivers for vista (177.79) but this had no effect. I changed the theme back to Vista Basic and all of a sudden everything became so much snappier. The drop downs in DevStudio appear immediately and my application shows its main window almost immediately without the CPU hitting 100%. The next thing I tried was to go back to the Aero theme and disable hardware acceleration for WPF applications by using the following registry entry
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Avalon.Graphics]
"DisableHWAcceleration"=dword:00000001
By disabling hardware acceleration I found that DevStudio and my application started working as expected, no pauses etc. I used this setup for a few days until I started noticing that all the applications are very jerky when using the scrollbars and that every so often I get a pause for no apparent reason. I have now gone back to the Vista Basic theme because with that I do not have any of the above problems.
I initially thought that this was an incompatibility between Windows 2008 and the nVidia drivers but having read this thread some of the problems other people have had seem to fit in with my experiences. I am considering uninstalling the Hyper-V role to see if this fixes the problems.
Glenn - There was some methodology (misunderstanding) behind using the older Forceware XP x64 drivers, they ended up working so I'm sticking with it for the moment.
- Good to hear. It's been 100% rock solid. Both machines that had the problem feel brand new. The Dell 2900 in the lab never had the problem.
Anyone besides me still been able to use Aero? Again, not a huge loss considering the massive performance gain, but I'm just curious.
When I installed the drivers, in both cases, the exe's failed, but I was able to update the driver by pointing to the extracted drivers folders.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - Glenn Atter said:
I initially started to notice issues with DevStudio, the properties window in the WPF editor would take 6 seconds (with CPU at 100%) from clicking on a dropdown list to it being displayed - very frustrating. I also noticed that my application would pause for 2 seconds (with CPU 100%) just before it displayed its main window. If I paused my application when the CPU hit 100% it would always be at this point.
Yeah, I got so sick of the any of the toolbox windows that were upgraded to WPF, gave up blend and WPF projects all together. I just couldn't take it, testing solutions felt more like murder. I just tested as we are speaking and everything works fine with my up-down-graded display drivers (except for aero). That really shouldn't matter unless you are programming against the wdm api creating glass effects within your app... right? Anyway, I just installed VS 2k8 SP1 literally 10 minutes ago so I can't really do a fair compare w/o SP1. Prop the same though. And I know that VS 2k8 worked great will all the enhancements before RC1. Oh, I just realized some of the media effects are handled by the WDM too so maybe no carousel. - Brian Mason said:
Good to hear. It's been 100% rock solid. Both machines that had the problem feel brand new. The Dell 2900 in the lab never had the problem.
Anyone besides me still been able to use Aero? Again, not a huge loss considering the massive performance gain, but I'm just curious.
When I installed the drivers, in both cases, the exe's failed, but I was able to update the driver by pointing to the extracted drivers folders.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM
My XP x64 install went through fine. I was very supprised, first time the GeForce did something right, actually no, installing the XP drivers on Server 2k8 is wrong and it let me do it.
If I had a Quatro for everytime my GeForce worked me... I'd have 8 monitors instead of 2.
Zac - Weird, I have a Quadro FX 570M and have tried out various XP x64 specific drivers, and have problems. To have them accepted in the first place I need to modify the inf file and this will let me install them. But then, after the reboot the video card show the usual esclamation mark next to it in device manager.
Did you people do anything else to have the XP drivers accepted? What drivers did you specifically download?
One additional info, I'm using a laptop ...
Bob- Edited bySundayDeveloper Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:23 PMadditional detail
- I have a GeForce 8500 GT. I downloaded the ForceWare release 169 drivers for WinXP 64-bit Zac linked to on page 3:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp64_169.21_whql.html
I did not have to edit any files, the installation ran out-of-the-box. I did have an error pop up toward the end of the installation but just clicked OK and the installation still succeeded. Everything "Just Worked" (except for Aero :( ) once I rebooted.
- Much as I hate to add a "me too" post....I have a
Dell Precision T5400
12GB RAM
XEON E5450 3Ghz x 1
2 x 73Gb SAS 15k RPM + Perc 6/i SAS Controller
NVidia GeForce 8800 GTS
..and I am so glad to have found this post. I've been battling with the laggy jerky behaviour for about a month now. I find the worst of it happens if I'm starting an RDP session (to local Hyper-V VM or one of our remote boxes in the DC). I also find when web browsing that if a site is pulling content from a third party I get 'the lag' (IE7 and FF3). Sound breaks up and overall responsiveness is a bit ____ for 2-10 seconds.
My question - is this specifically and definitely a video driver issue, I kinda feel that it could be some wider spread I/O bottleneck ? But you can slap me around if I'm wrong.
Ta.
Kev - Well, as the display drivers directly effect this issue I would lean toward that piece of hardware. That's not to say that the display drivers aren't conflicting with some other hardware though. At this point stuck with these old XP drivers, though limited, is much better than the unbearable system performance with the alternative...
For myself, I'm just waiting for some official information from one of the Microsoft employees. I check the NVidia forums every once in a while but it's almost pointless. - It's something that'll have to come from Microsoft, I suspect, because I had to get XP x64 Intel drivers to get the laptop going. But no doubt, it's so much better now with these drivers.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an XP x64 driver that works with the Quadro NVS 140M that is in my laptop. Has anyone with a 140M or 135M gotten the XP drivers to work?
- Did you try either the NVS 50 or 280 to see if they'd work?
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - George,
Are you using dual monitors with the laptop? If not, try the default Microsoft Display Adapter drivers.
Zac - FYI: Driverheaven.net has an Nvidia (and an ATI) mobility modder. Basically this utility changes the INF file of any Nvidia drivers you download from Nvidia's web site so that you can install them on your laptop. You can get it here:
http://www.driverheaven.net/nvmodtool.php
If you don't already know this, many generic/OEM Nvidia drivers won't install on (Dell) laptops. You get a variation of a "this hardware is not compatible" message and the setup program exits. You can use "Update Driver" from device manager, but that won't install the control panel for you. Anyway, I used this to mod the Dell Latitude E6400 laptop driver INF and now I can install the E6400 driver on my Dell Latitude D620. I have not tried adding the Hyper-V role back yet, but I am hopeful that now I can try assorted drivers from the Nvidia web site and maybe find a current driver that works with Hyper-V.
YMMV, Good Luck
-Peter - I used the mod tool and it still said I wasn't using XP. So just for giggles, installed the 177.83 drivers for x64 Vista with no luck. Then I took the inf file from the Vista Driver and copied it to the XP driver and it installed. So far so good. I will post my experiences. Too bad I lost Aero :(
- Mine was as simple an install and pointing to the extracted XP x64 drivers after they failed to install from their exe by using the "update drivers" button. It sounds like I'm the only one who is still using Aero after the change to the X64 drivers. That's too bad.
But I'll never go back to the Vista drivers until Microsoft addresses this issue. Performance is top notch again and I'm really pushing Hyper-V hard and loving it. It seems like forever ago now that we were stuck waiting for Hyper-V using VPC. I can't imagine going back now. And I'm really glad to have this work-around regarding the drivers.
Microsoft MVP - SCCM - By the way, I have the same issues but am using ATI cards. It may not be as severe as those with Nvidia cards but simple things like CTRL-ALT-DELETE can take 20 seconds to paint the screens. I kept UAC but disabled the Secure Desktop feature just because painting the screens takes so long. I am using 3 monitors which is likely accentuating the problem.
I have not tried alternative drivers
MSI Platinum P35
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
8GB PC6400 DDR2 (4 x 2GB G.Skill 4-4-4-12)
2 x GIGABYTE Radeon HD 2600XT GV-RX26T256H
1 x 20.1" LCD 1600x1200
2 x 17" LCD 1280x1024
3 x Hitachi 500GB SATA HDD [RAID 5]
1 x Western Digital 500GB SATA HDD
Rosewill 950W Power Supply
- I have taken the plunge and my desktop Vista x64 machine is now Server 2008 with Hyper-V.
Roles Installed: - Hyper-V & File Services for Shared Folders
Features Installed: - Desktop Exp, RSAT, Telnet Client, Powershell, Server Backup
I am 'currently' using Vista x64 nVidia driver 7.15.11.6925 (169.25 x64 Forceware Drivers) and AERO is working fine.
Hardware Specs:
- Intel Q6600 Quad Core CPU
- 6GB DDR2 800Mhz RAM
- Gigabyte GA965G-DS3 Motherboard (ICH8)
- Gigabyte nVidia 8500 GT 256MB PCI
- Dual 17" CRT Monitors
- RAID1 Hardware SATA Boot Array
- 2 x 320GB Data Drives
- 1 x 160GB Vista HDD Legacy Boot drive (Still with Vista x64 OS on it as P2V'ing that went pear shaped, that's for another thread).
I see the issues that this thread has mentioned from using the system for the past week going through different scenarios including no audio for two days and then enabling audio and with those constant 'little pauses' since install some of them appear to be video related and some are no doubt the network load/disk perf due to my current setup (OS and Hyper-V VHD's are on the same array at the moment) though after a week running WMP in a Hyper-V Vista VM via RDP very rarely have I had the sound issue, maybe a couple of times per day max. but the 'screen freeze' for one to two seconds happens quite often and the trigger always seems to be when you switch focus to another window be it in the parent partition or inside a VM that I am connected to via RDP.
I will swap out the video drivers in the next day or so to some x64 XP drivers and see how it goes.
One of the main reasons I held back going from Vista Ultimate to Server 2008 was getting the use of my TV Card which I now have working (still tweaking) other than the TV recording software I only have IE7/FF3/Opera9.5 (For diag testing etc) installed and anything else in the parent partition is run via apps from http://portableapps.com and lastly http://codeplex.com/terminals to manage all my RDP sessions. I doubt there is much more or need for any other apps on my parent partition so it can and will stay rather healthy.
I have two new Vista VM's running, one for day to day common usage Email, Office, Music etc and the other is loaded with Visual Studio Express 2008, Office 2007 & Expression 2 and another 2008 Core Server as a secondary domain controller for my primary Hyper-V Server. The parent partition in the current config still has 1GB of RAM free and I only use what I must use (TV Recording & Terminals RDP) and hardly ever have a browser window open, everything day to day including this post is done in the Vista VM so the parent partition is hardly used.
As a platform if we could get USB device 'pass-thru' and more Video RAM in Hyper-V VM's.... Mmmmm (Yeah I know the answer on this). I cant run Photosynth in a Hyper-V VM due to VRAM and I am not going to try Photoshop just yet either, some graphics intensive app's will have to run on the old slow laptop for a while (Not that I am a designer, At times VRAM is needed though).
Other than the main issue of this thread my desktop/workstation will forever run as a Hypervisor from this day forth and a wide variety of OS flavours on top of it Linux Mint, CentOS, Ubuntu, Vista, Server 03/08, MacOS etc...
"I'm a PC and Hyper-V Rocks my Workstation" (Nearly!, Get this fixed and I will post a video :P )
Cheers, Stephen Edgar- Edited byStephen Edgar Sunday, September 21, 2008 4:50 PMI'm a PC Formatting Error :P
- ** Shameless Bump **
I still have not changed the nVidia drivers I am using and day-to-day tasks I am finding near on zero issues, except.
All my music is running in a Vista x64 VM with WMP11 and only misses a beat when I really load the parent partition with some I/O intensive tasks and my CPU usage bumps to 100%. This is typically if I fire up WMP11 on the parent partition to play back some recorded TV or the like (After work finishes :P) and the DWM.EXE process goes off the charts. When this happens it feels as if I am running one of the early Vista Beta builds and going through those hellish DWM crashes trying to get the 'Aero' interface up and running as nVidia's drivers and DWM did not play nice back then.
I am 99.9% sure this is a driver issue and/or related to DWM and if my crash logs were not annonymously uploaded to MSFT you could see them MSFT. Throw me some links to your MPSRPT Tools (i.e. Updated versions of these)to generate the 'Report Logs' and give me a FTP Upload slot and you are welcome to whatever you want or even if you want to hook into a Live Meeting EasyAssist session and watch it happen you are more than welcome team.
Other than this issue this is such an amazing workstation.... Yes we know it may be an 'Unsupported Scenario' from Microsoft yet during all the Hyper-V/WSV/Viridian Beta's we were only discouraged from running Hyper-V with the AD role in the parent partition never the 'Desktop Experience' and I think that Microsoft need to work on this with by the sounds of it both nVidia and AMD to get this issue resolved.
Cheers, Stephen Edgar - I am also having this slow down issue using the latest 178 Nvidia drivers. Using the XP x64 drivers does fix the problem somewhat, but there is still some choppy behaviour, although it is nowhere near as bad as with the Vista drivers.
Roles installed: Hyper-V
Features installed: Desktop Experience
System:
- Intel E6400 Core 2 Duo
- 2GB ram
- Asus P5N-E SLi motherboard, with Nvidia 650i SLi chipset
- 2x Nvidia Geforce 8600GT
- Realtek HD audio with 2.05 drivers