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Windows 8, once and for all

    General discussion

  • The problem with Windows 8 is simply that it feels as if Windows 95 (yea, 95) is actually the successor version, not the other way around.

    1. The desktop has multiple windows, Metro has not.

    2. Desktop programs can be resized, Metro apps cannot.

    3. The desktop has drag and drop between applications, Metro has not. Instead of just selecting the items you want to export and actually move them into the other program, you need to handle with "charms" which comes across far more unintuitive than just dragging and dropping.

    4. The desktop has nearly unlimited multi-tasking abilities, Metro has not.

    5. Metro apps are far more limited in scope, by design, than desktop programs.

    6. Desktop programs have depth and 3D, Metro apps on the other hand seem to be approved by the Flat Earth Society.

    7. Desktop programs are usually more colorful and vibrant, the Metro design principle consists of CGA style mono-color.

    Winzip for desktop:

    WinRT version:

    Which one does look more like a C64 program?

    8. You can open up other programs in the desktop, through the start menu, without disrupting workflow. On the other hand the start screen is something like the "item menu" in games where you dress up your character with weapons etc. Everyone knows that it is quite distracting switching between item menu and game world in games, and Microsoft brought this concept onto its flag ship product! Hooray.

    9. Desktop programs can be easily distributed, Metro desktops are locked-in into the store.

    And that's just the problem of the WinRT part. The fact that Win8 has multiple control panels and update mechanisms and is a duality monster hasn't been touched upon here. Yet alone that Win8 apologists in all seriousness propose arcane keyboard shortcuts as solution for some of the glaring problems, where previous versions worked just fine without using them.

    If an alien would just land on our planet and see Windows 7 and Windows 8 (and its programs) for the first time, without no prior knowledge, he would think Windows 7 is the successor, not 8.

    I am not "against change", I am not married to the start menu or Win32. If something truly better would come along, I would be sold. But Win8 just isn't.

    I still can't get over it. They took a phone GUI and put it on full fledged computers as default...
    The premise is so retarded when you take your time to think about it for more than one millisecond, just unbelievable. Like putting a bike into a car chassis.

    That they were able to go with this and run it to the very end is just incredible.

    Friday, November 16, 2012 2:32 PM

All replies

  • And this is why Ballmer is refusing to release sales numbers. As I see it, Windows RT is selling so poorly that it may not even sell 20% of what they hoped this quarter among ALL the OEMs selling ALL the RT devices. People wouldn't touch RT with a ten foot pole if they knew the real sales numbers. IMO it is so bad, that Microsoft is probably now considering discontinuing the RT product when Windows 8 Pro is released next year. The iPad mini probably sold in just ONE day more than twice as many devices than every single Windows RT manufacturer is predicted to sell this entire quarter. If I was an investor, I would be jumping the MS ship right now because IMO the stock is going to tank real soon and Ballmer is going to be facing some VERY angry people over this whole debacle. Windows RT is a complete flop and disaster.

    USA Today - poll shows us consumers hesitant on windows 8

    • Edited by ABCFED Friday, November 16, 2012 3:29 PM
    Friday, November 16, 2012 3:10 PM
  • And this is why Ballmer is refusing to release sales numbers.

    http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-sales-well-below-projections-plenty-blame-go-around

    Sales of Windows 8 PCs are well below Microsoft’s internal projections and have been described inside the company as disappointing. But here’s the catch: The software giant blames the slow start on lackluster PC maker designs and availability

    With all this issues, they are wondering why Win8 sales are lackluster and blame PC makers? REALLY?

    And my post was only about the problems of the WinRT part.

    Friday, November 16, 2012 5:23 PM
  • And this is why Ballmer is refusing to release sales numbers. As I see it, Windows RT is selling so poorly that it may not even sell 20% of what they hoped this quarter among ALL the OEMs selling ALL the RT devices. People wouldn't touch RT with a ten foot pole if they knew the real sales numbers.


    Hm, just out of interest, do you have some insider information? As far as I know, the only info is that sales are below expectations, exact numbers were not given. Is the 20% figure based on some reliable knowledge?
    Saturday, November 17, 2012 9:58 AM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.
    Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:43 PM
  • the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.

    What about the other RT devices? Well, I guess they are doing even worse. No wonder.

    "Windows RT" is the dumbest product name in history of industrialized products. Even something like "Microsoft Tiles" would be far better.

    What does RT mean? I guess it has something to do with WinRT, but who the hell knows that outside of Visual Studio addicts? For 99.9% of the population it is a completely meaningless moniker. Windows XP and Windows me also had these two-character names instead of a number and they were able to run all existing programs.

    That has also been pointed out a million times in the last months, Sinofsky even said that they were going to make it absolutely clear that no one would confuse Win8 and RT.. and what's the result? Windows RT looks exactly like Windows 8, it even has a desktop.. but it can't run existing applications, and the only hint for that is "RT", which doesn't ring any bells for the customer. You could as well call it Windows Dumbo.

    I bet that there were more than enough RT-device and Surface buyers who were absolutely befuddled why they weren't able to run their existing Windows programs and gave the devices back.

    Customer: "Why can't I run my existing applications?"

    Salesperson :"You can't run these on Windows RT. Only the store apps"

    C: "So why is it called Windows? And why is there a desktop then, that looks like Windows 7?"

    S: "To run Office"

    C: "But isn't Office a normal Windows application as well? I have it on my PC, and it looks exactly like the one on this device. If Office works on this, why can't I use my other programs as well?"

    S: "You see, this thing has a so-called ARM processor, and Microsoft has decided that [...]"

    C: "Ah, f..k this!"

    http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/windows-rt-and-8-sales-signs-point-major-flop-206847

    "rumors of astronomical [Surface RT] return rates" - Uh, let me guess why.

    The stupid approach taken with Windows RT is also bad on a whole other level. It shows that Microsoft doesn't seem to value its own ecosystem, which it has been building up for the whole existence of Windows. Microsoft's opinion about the millions of existing Win32 and .NET applications, and the developers who made them, is not exactly flattering if they thought that no one would notice their absence.

    The Windows 8 decisions so far reek "debacle", from start to finish. And Microsoft can't say that they haven't been warned. How were they able to stubbornly screw up so much on all fronts, despite the tons of feedback and complaints, which predicted all these problems to the letter, is beyond me.

    Saturday, November 17, 2012 5:02 PM
  • In the world of high tech business I have found throughout my career that from time to time some folks are given the ability to "bet the farm" - to create and run projects that are obvious pigs, with no hope for success - yet not only are they allowed to start them but often they're allowed to run them terribly, break through all reasonable roadblocks, and defy common sense for years.

    I have worked for several fairly large product development companies that despite my (and others') warnings of doom and gloom, created and ran projects that were hopeless and wasted hundreds of millions of dollars, run by morons whom I wouldn't trust to tie their shoes correctly.  Basically, it's the world of Dilbert, except possibly even more bizarre, if you can believe it.  In one case this idiotic ongoing ignorance of reality actually killed the company.

    I can only guess that some critical mass of individuals whom control large budgets and somehow have decision-making power well beyond their capabilities are "friends outside of work" and approve their own stuff ("you scratch my back"...) despite the obvious conflict of interest.  "The Executive Club".  Or maybe someone has found a way to blackmail their bosses.  Or all of the above.

    The worst of it is that these people are often themselves made rich in the process, while the well-meaning individuals of the company remain underpaid, under-recognized, and denied purchase approvals for essentials with which to do their jobs.  Customers ultimately lose out, and in the worst cases the company is lost so even investors are screwed.  In some cases they move on and do it all again somewhere else.

    Why does this happen?

    The phrase "absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind, as does "the love of money is the root of all evil".

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, November 17, 2012 5:25 PM

  • What about the other RT devices? Well, I guess they are doing even worse. No wonder.


    The Windows 8 decisions so far reek "debacle", from start to finish. And Microsoft can't say that they haven't been warned. How were they able to stubbornly screw up so much on all fronts, despite the tons of feedback and complaints, which predicted all these problems to the letter, is beyond me.

    The other OEMs combined haven't sold as many RT devices as has Microsoft - if that answers your question as to how well they are doing.

    Microsoft deserves this. I don't normally kick companies when they are down, but this has been a complete debacle for over a year now. We've been telling Microsoft this isn't going to work since before the Developer preview. They heartily ignored all of our feedback and were egotistical jerks, to be quite honest. They have absolutely earned "fail" and this IS Vista 2.0 we are seeing right now. They were warned over and over again. They were complete asses to us when we gave our feedback and literally ignored it all. Limiting the Windows 8 Phone SDK was another example of complete and utter stupidity. Good riddance Sinofsky is all I can say.

    That said, I don't want to see Windows fail. I just want the people responsible for this travesty to be thrown out on their ears and for the Windows team to resuscitate the product and go forward with it. Microsoft needs to clean house and fix this problem. I want Windows 9 (or whatever is coming next) to succeed and be awesome!


    • Edited by ABCFED Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:33 PM
    Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:25 PM
  • They have absolutely earned "fail" and this IS Vista 2.0 we are seeing right now.

    No, this is worse than Vista.

    Comparing Vista to Windows 8 is flattering Windows 8. Vista's problems were accidental bugs and issues (it's not like the Vista team wanted those speed problems), while pretty much all flaws of 8 aren't bugs, but are by design and put on purpose. That's hundred times worse.

    Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:37 PM

  • No, this is worse than Vista.


    You are right. This is worse than Vista because rather than spend the last 3 years developing something that we would all want...they spent all their time developing things we didn't want and removing countless features we still did. Microsoft then argued and ignored us when we told them it was a bad path they were on.


    • Edited by SAS71 Saturday, November 17, 2012 8:32 PM
    Saturday, November 17, 2012 8:28 PM
  • Microsoft spent their time;  1) Figuring out how to set up an Apple Store model, 2) How to create a Redbox(tm) Video Rental interface to be used by consumers looking at Xbox-esque squares, and 3) How to shove advertising into the applications i.e. News, Weather, etc.   Windows 8/RT  is not an operating system.  It is a product delivery system.   This is Microsoft's answer to the Amazon Kindle marketing model.  

    Perhaps this is the new world of technology where we are no longer seen as "customers" but only as "consumers"?

    Maybe it should be called Windows COS  for Consumer Operating System?



    • Edited by Qball680 Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:48 AM
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:28 AM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.

    So you are basically making it up?
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:00 PM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.


    So you are basically making it up?

    Believe me or don't believe me - I don't care. One can't be "committal" in public forums like this for various reasons. In any case, it's exactly what Paul Thurrott, NewEgg, and others are now saying.

    • Edited by ABCFED Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:03 PM
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:01 PM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.


    So you are basically making it up?

    Believe me or don't believe me - I don't care. One can't be "committal" in public forums like this for various reasons. In any case, it's exactly what Paul Thurrott, NewEgg, and others are now saying.


    And are they too making it up? A simple yes or no will suffice, I don't need reference to who else is saying what... I only care for empirical evidence to back up spurious claims that can be summarised by answering my question with a yes or no.
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 5:06 PM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.


    So you are basically making it up?

    Believe me or don't believe me - I don't care. One can't be "committal" in public forums like this for various reasons. In any case, it's exactly what Paul Thurrott, NewEgg, and others are now saying.


    And are they too making it up? A simple yes or no will suffice, I don't need reference to who else is saying what... I only care for empirical evidence to back up spurious claims that can be summarised by answering my question with a yes or no.

    You really think that Paul Thurrott and NewEgg would make up stuff like this? What planet are you on? This isn't an x-files episode with a hundred different people all conspiring together to say that Windows 8 sales are poor with aliens, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster hovering in the background. This data comes from many, many reputable sources - and MS insiders. This is exactly why S Ballmer is refusing to release sales numbers.

    • Edited by ABCFED Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:51 PM
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:50 PM
  • Lets just say that I feel a 20-25% sales figure over what was planned is a fairly accurate scenario of what is occurring. IMO, the Surface RT, for example, hasn't even hit 250,000 units sold yet - and Ballmer stated that 3 million would sell.


    So you are basically making it up?

    Believe me or don't believe me - I don't care. One can't be "committal" in public forums like this for various reasons. In any case, it's exactly what Paul Thurrott, NewEgg, and others are now saying.


    And are they too making it up? A simple yes or no will suffice, I don't need reference to who else is saying what... I only care for empirical evidence to back up spurious claims that can be summarised by answering my question with a yes or no.

    You really think that Paul Thurrott and NewEgg would make up stuff like this? What planet are you on? This isn't an x-files episode with a hundred different people all conspiring together to say that Windows 8 sales are poor with aliens, bigfoot, and the loch ness monster hovering in the background. This data comes from many, many reputable sources - and MS insiders. This is exactly why S Ballmer is refusing to release sales numbers.


    Now now, did you or did you not make it up? Did you see actual figures before posting? Please understand we only need a yes or no, we have enough waffle designed to avoid answers from politicians and we do not need that here, thank you.
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:35 PM
  • Please understand we only need a yes or no, we have enough waffle designed to avoid answers from politicians and we do not need that here, thank you.

    @ProjectVRD...

    Just curious...who is the "we" you are referring to? From what I can see, you are the only one who seems to question the sales data. Are you saying that Windows 8 is a runaway success and Microsoft is hiding this fact from all of us? If so...for what purpose? As I recall, Paul stated quite clearly in his article that "One of my most trusted sources at Microsoft confirmed Windows 8’s weak start this week.", so if ABCFED is lying...then Paul is lying as well? Where is the logic in this?

    What is the point  of your even questioning the obvious sales problems that the surface is currently having? The sales are indeed below projections...WELL BELOW projections...which is exactly what Newegg.com said as well. This would indicate ABCFED is exactly correct with only about a quarter being sold. There are numerous sites out there saying the same thing. This isn't one guy (or gal) stating this claim.

    Are you actually an investigator on Microsoft's payroll trying to ferret out who is leaking this stuff from inside Microsoft or what? I'll give you a hint...EVERYONE is leaking the same dismal sales information. Not a single person is leaking spectacular sales information. Even Mr. Ballmer copped to that fact.


    • Edited by SAS71 Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:06 PM
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:00 PM
  • Now now, did you or did you not make it up? Did you see actual figures before posting? Please understand we only need a yes or no, we have enough waffle designed to avoid answers from politicians and we do not need that here, thank you.

    You keep pestering me for a firm committal. Why does this sound like you are trying to legally trap me into something? Are you a shill for Microsoft? That is it - isn't it? You're a Microsoft shill prowling these forums. Listen Mr. Shill - I'm not going to commit to anything - whether you want to think that I "make it up" is your business.

    In fact, you are right - I take back everything I said. In reality, the surface is selling BILLIONS of units - more units than there are people on the planet even and MS wants to keep it all a big secret. People are buying them for their pets now too. They don't want Sony, Asus, or Apple to feel bad. Yeah - that's it - that's what's really going on. So, Mr. Shill, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Microsoft Windows 8 sales are rocking the house - probably will sell a trillion units by the end of next year at the rate it is going.

    • Edited by ABCFED Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:05 PM
    Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:58 PM
  • Do you have proof that they sold billions or was that made up as well?
    Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:21 AM
  • Do you have proof that they sold billions or was that made up as well?

    Of course i have proof. I have a cousins, wife's next door neighbors grandkids aunt's roommate who will testify as such. 

    Yeah, right. Like I would tell a shill anything. Go back to your masters at Microsoft and tell them you weren't able to glean any info here. You are obviously a shill. lol.

    Sunday, November 25, 2012 3:42 PM
  • So basically you came here just to troll with made up facts? What kind of a life is that?
    Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:06 PM
  • So basically you came here just to troll with made up facts? What kind of a life is that?

    Yep. You caught me. You also caught Paul, Newegg, and all the other websites, people, and analysts saying that Windows sales are incredibly poor. You are soooooo smart ProjectVRD. So smart.

    As far as the life - it's great! money, hot nice women, and fame are literally leaping at me constantly. I get free healthcare (even have my own personal medical staff at beck and call) and have a free lifetime pass for any grocery store in the world (that my 10 butlers go shopping at). I also live in a 50,000 sq ft mansion with my own private hunting ground and airport for my 3 jets (of course, I have 8 other homes around the world - and 2 yachts). I can't go by a single minute without getting flowers and chocolates in the mail from my fans. Justin Bieber ain't got nothing on me and my cohort Thurrott! I even have a helper monkey - to fetch me my beer. It's an awesome life. Thanks for asking.

    Speaking of life - how is the life of a shill? Does Microsoft pay you well? Do you get benefits? Are you still sleeping on friends couches? You don't have a helper monkey do you? Sad.

    Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:45 PM
  • "I counted about 40 in the [Microsoft] store. However, during my 45-minute people-watching span, not one person left the store with a Microsoft product. Across the way at the Apple Store, about 120 people milled around inside and 30 customers waited outside to pick up pre-ordered iPad minis and new fourth-generation iPads. I counted at least 35 people carrying Apple products out the door...Also, while every salesperson in Apple's store was engaged with a customer, I counted six Microsoft Store employees standing around trying to look busy."

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2412343,00.asp

    • Edited by ABCFED Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:54 AM
    Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:53 AM
  • Though it sounds biased toward Apple, the above is a pretty fair description of what I've seen lately as well.

    I visited several tech stores over the past several days, including an Apple store (where we decided to buy an iPad mini).  To be fair I did see some interest in the systems displaying Windows 8's colored tiles, but it wasn't the sea of iHumanity literally mobbing the Apple store, which had moved in the mall, expanding to more than twice the size of what it was last year.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:35 AM
  • "Surface is so key to Windows 8 that Microsoft should have coughed up more data. The lack of disclosure points to weaker-than-expected sales. Rest assured if Microsoft sold 3 million Surface units we would have heard about it."

    http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-lack-of-surface-disclosure-spurs-unit-guessing-game-7000010353/

    ProjectVRD - Note too that the analysts are guessing that the actual sales were between 500,000-1,000,000 units. This would make it somewhere between 17% and 33% of what Steve Ballmer stated was the sales goal (3,000,000). I previously stated that the sales would be around 20-25%. Sounds like I was dead-on accurate.

    :)

    Friday, January 25, 2013 7:05 PM
  • "Surface is so key to Windows 8 that Microsoft should have coughed up more data. The lack of disclosure points to weaker-than-expected sales. Rest assured if Microsoft sold 3 million Surface units we would have heard about it."

    http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-lack-of-surface-disclosure-spurs-unit-guessing-game-7000010353/

    ProjectVRD - Note too that the analysts are guessing that the actual sales were between 500,000-1,000,000 units. This would make it somewhere between 17% and 33% of what Steve Ballmer stated was the sales goal (3,000,000). I previously stated that the sales would be around 20-25%. Sounds like I was dead-on accurate.

    :)

    So how exactly does that refer to Windows 8 sales where I posted official confirmation in another thread on here that Windows 8 outsold all other OS's in history in it's teething in period? This is a wider Windows 8 thread afterall, so what I say is true backed up by numbers published. Isn't it nice when you back up your claims with empirical figures?

    Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:51 AM