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Virtual PC support for PCI TV Tuner card -- Vista Ultimate 64 simulation of Windows XP SP3__2

    Question

  • Is it possible to be running Windows Vista 64 Ultimate, then use Virtual PC to virtualize Windows XP SP3 and then use the virtualized Windows XP to install drivers and run application for a PCI TV Tuner card ?
    Q6600//6 GB Sdram//ATI Radeon HD 4550// .
    In general, can Virtual PC install device drivers for PCI devices ?

    Embedded Eng
    Friday, December 04, 2009 7:02 PM

Answers

  • The problem is that there is nothing in Windows 7 or even in Vista which is worth losing the basic functionality of putting PCI cards in the PC, install its device drivers, and then being able to run an application which speaks to that device.
    On a basic sales and marketing level, Microsoft would have been better off just re-releasing Windows XP.
    As soon as existing functionality is lost, functionality to which millions of customers and many product developers have become accustomed, it is hard to imagine what VP at Microsoft is thinking when he decides to destroy that functionality in order to put out a new OS which has less functionality, with some existing functionality Dressed Up.

    If you obsolete existing functionality, that must require some fantastic functionality being added.
    Unless this is some sort of Planned Obsolescence exploitation of the buying public.
    As I have mentioned, USB is not a proper solution for high data rate functionality as TV Tuners transport streams and results in an increased gaggle of external cables surrounding the PC.

    And if Microsoft has a Planned Obsolescence marketing scam policy, then that should be regulated by the US Federal Trade Commission and Congress.

    And Hauppauage is a slow, backward company.  They have had one good idea recently, but they have always been happy to play second fiddle to ATI.  Then ATI collapsed and left Hauppauge the leader.  Hauppauge does not deserve to be the leader and their having that role will retard the TV Tuner industry.

    Embedded Eng
    • Marked as answer by Aeneas32 Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:37 PM
    Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:54 AM

All replies

  • No, sorry, that's not possible, Windows VPC only emulates a certain set of hardware and can't see the host's PCI hardware other than what is already emulated.


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Friday, December 04, 2009 7:26 PM
  • The problem is that the performance of Microsoft development engineers in Vista and Windows 7 for multimedia TV Tuner support, especially in the Audio component, is absolutely disgraceful, and without being able to virtualize XP in the new OSes, there is a huge loss in the ability of users to watch TV on their PC.

    For instance, the Vista/Windows7 SNDVOL.EXE is a joke impersonation of the XP SNDVOL32.EXE, and the critical functionality of Composite IN for TV Tuner cards now has lost its ability to Record Audio, resulting in Muted video file playback.

    [In the normal TV Tuner card configuration, the Composite IN is connected to the output from the Cable Set Top Box allowing the user to receive all the cable channels for which he is paying. The PCI card tuner is connected to the raw cable coax signal, and is used to ease the process of switching channels and recording (without having to switch the STP) when the user is absent, but of course is not capable of receiving most of the customer's channels, because most cable channels are encrypted.]

    Hopefully the Microsoft layoffs we have heard about included those responsible.
    Those developers were clearly sabotaging purposely  their own company's product.
    Do you know of any other way around these multimedia problems in Vista and Windows7 ?

    Embedded Eng
    • Edited by Aeneas32 Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:12 AM clarity
    Friday, December 04, 2009 7:38 PM
  • You can use a USB TV Tuner.
    Saturday, December 05, 2009 9:28 PM
  • You can use a USB TV Tuner.

    That is not a solution to the problem. 
    Making the PC TV Tuner source an external box leads to wasted space around the PC, wasted AC power, and intermittent bandwidth, USB bus being shared by other USB devices, an increased gaggle of wires and cables hanging off the PC and less portability for the PC.
    The PCI and PCI-E bus is much faster than the USB 2 bus.
    Also, external USB TV Tuner boxes are hard to find, so it is clear that the TV Tuner manufacturers do not agree with this idea.
    They are the ones losing money by Microsoft engineers sabotaging the Windows PC multimedia interface.

    What is the point of claiming to have achieved Windows XP emulation/virtualization, when it is clear that the XP emulation box cannot talk to the critical devices installed in the PC and thus,  the claim is completely false ?

    Embedded Eng
    Saturday, December 05, 2009 11:26 PM
  • What you are wanting is more along the lines of a virtual appliance. First of all your processor will also have to have vt-d, not just vt.
    Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:11 AM
  • It should be possible to trap guest accesses to the page tables of each of the handful of OSes which need to be emulated and avoid all that hardware assist.
    This VT-D seems to be yet another welfare program at Microsoft and Intel.

    The problem with today's Microsoft  is that nothing new is ever going to be completely solved by this crew of engineers and engineering managers at Microsoft.  They will always leave a bug here or an omission there, purposely,  since the current incompetent management there seems to reward that sort of featherbedding behavior.
    That is why it is critical to retain any existing solution, in this case for Watching TV on the PC, as exists using Windows XP,  rather than trust them to come up with a fresh solution in the near future.
    That new total solution is never going to appear.

    Embedded Eng
    Sunday, December 06, 2009 2:16 PM

  • What is the point of claiming to have achieved Windows XP emulation/virtualization, when it is clear that the XP emulation box cannot talk to the critical devices installed in the PC and thus,  the claim is completely false ?

    Embedded Eng

    No virtualization software can directly access hardware, there are a lot of architecture issues with driver sharing etc. 
    Because the product does not meet YOUR definition of virtualization/emulation does not make the claim false. 

    No where does an VM app developer state that they have direct access to host PCI cards or other hardware, excluding the CPU.  In fact, most will state this limitation and this is why all VM programs have emulated video cards, sound cards, NICs and so on.

    Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:13 PM
  • There is no interest here in driver sharing -- that may be yet another Welfare program at Microsoft.
    I want the various plug and play devices within the Tuner card to be completely controlled by the Virtual_PC//Windows_XP window. 
    Whatever accesses to its own page table that the emulation Windows_XP makes, can be trapped and translated by the host OS.
    It is Microsoft which is claiming that it has an all-powerful Windows XP Virtualization, through its marketing/public_relations news media corruption system.  The tech news media reporters are touting this virtualization as all-powerful and that is an outright Fraud.  Those expecting this XP virtualization functionality to work for the most common pastime in the world, Watch-ing TV, on one's PC, will be disappointed.
    They will be defrauded.

    Microsoft should be carefully interviewing existing employees and finding out which had anything to do with the current SNDVOL.EXE, or with the blocking of Composite IN Audio file recording (only video is saved in the file), the blocking of CD-IN audio input, and Fire every single one of them.

    [As an aside, another file system related new Bug is where CHKDSK will simply stall while running through index entries.  It seems to start running again when one hits return at each stall (this is on a 1.5TB drive partitioned in half), but who knows what is going on here ?  Chkdsk functionality is absolutely critical to the safety of Microsoft's customer's files.]
    Q6600//6 GB Sdram//ATI Radeon HD 4550//1.5TB//Windows Vista 64 Ultimate// .

    Embedded Eng
    Monday, December 07, 2009 1:04 AM
  • There is no interest here in driver sharing -- that may be yet another Welfare program at Microsoft.
    I want the various plug and play devices within the Tuner card to be completely controlled by the Virtual_PC//Windows_XP window. 
    Whatever accesses to its own page table that the emulation Windows_XP makes, can be trapped and translated by the host OS.
    It is Microsoft which is claiming that it has an all-powerful Windows XP Virtualization, through its marketing/public_relations news media corruption system.  The tech news media reporters are touting this virtualization as all-powerful and that is an outright Fraud.  Those expecting this XP virtualization functionality to work for the most common pastime in the world, Watch-ing TV, on one's PC, will be disappointed.
    They will be defrauded.


    Embedded Eng

    Can you provide a link to this "all powerful XP virtualization" statement?  A link that says you can directly access non-USB Host devices?  A link for a tech reporter calling WinVPC all powerful?
     
    Unless you're using USB, you're not going to have direct access to a host device, NO one has developed this.  If this were a Microsoft conspiracy, then why can't you do this with VMWare Workstation on a Linux based OS?

    Regardless, your initial point is moot.  Windows VPC is for Windows 7 (as is this forum), not Vista and won't work on Vista.
    The "problem" has nothing to do with MS engineers.
    Monday, December 07, 2009 2:25 AM
  • There is no interest here in driver sharing -- that may be yet another Welfare program at Microsoft.
    I want the various plug and play devices within the Tuner card to be completely controlled by the Virtual_PC//Windows_XP window. 
    Whatever accesses to its own page table that the emulation Windows_XP makes, can be trapped and translated by the host OS.
    It is Microsoft which is claiming that it has an all-powerful Windows XP Virtualization, through its marketing/public_relations news media corruption system.  The tech news media reporters are touting this virtualization as all-powerful and that is an outright Fraud.  Those expecting this XP virtualization functionality to work for the most common pastime in the world, Watch-ing TV, on one's PC, will be disappointed.
    They will be defrauded.


    Embedded Eng

    Can you provide a link to this "all powerful XP virtualization" statement?  A link that says you can directly access non-USB Host devices?  A link for a tech reporter calling WinVPC all powerful?
     
    Unless you're using USB, you're not going to have direct access to a host device, NO one has developed this.  If this were a Microsoft conspiracy, then why can't you do this with VMWare Workstation on a Linux based OS?

    Regardless, your initial point is moot.  Windows VPC is for Windows 7 (as is this forum), not Vista and won't work on Vista.
    The "problem" has nothing to do with MS engineers.


    The video on the Microsoft site claims that legacy devices are supported and fails to state clearly that PCI and PCI-E device will not be supported.
    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ee530028.aspx

    I assure you the source code for Windows7 XP Mode is practically identical to Virtual PC,  dressed up.
    And that dressing up is also a problem with the waste at Microsoft.

    The same video claims that Microsoft spent precious engineering dollars implementing, for instance, a method of invoking the programs which are installed on and run on the XP Mode box, directly from the Windows 7 Start menu.
    To the bribe controlled crooks in the tech press who hardly even use a pc beyond writing their promotional public relations drivel,  this sort of thing might generate Wows that they propagate to their readers, but it is worthless.
    What is the point of that dressing up.  That is a complete waste of money.
    Money they could have spent ensuring that the handful of manufacturers of TV Tuner cards, like Dvico, Hauppauge, Asus, (there are maybe 3 significant others) could have their device drivers install and run Natively in Windows 7.

    Microsoft is running a pseudo-developer Welfare program there providing dress ups that are a waste of the money their millions of customers are contributing to the cause.

    Embedded Eng
    Monday, December 07, 2009 3:44 AM
  • Sorry you're not happy with the result, but virtualizatio is what it is, no virtualization engine can do what you want. (yet, and maybe never)

    As for Windows VPC being almost identical to VPC2007, actually not, they have a common ancestor it's true, but it's more from the Virtual Server line, plus lots of enhancements to do USB and for RAIL support.  (Virtual Server had the ability to run headless and has scripting, as does Windows VPC.)


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    • Proposed as answer by Steve JainMVP Monday, December 07, 2009 6:13 PM
    Monday, December 07, 2009 1:56 PM
  • Most likely full screen TV video is not going to be fast enough, RDP doesn't have the bandwith to do that kind of output.  Windowed TV is fine in a VM though.  (I've tested it)


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, December 07, 2009 1:57 PM
  • Sorry you're not happy with the result, but virtualizatio is what it is, no virtualization engine can do what you want. (yet, and maybe never)

    As for Windows VPC being almost identical to VPC2007, actually not, they have a common ancestor it's true, but it's more from the Virtual Server line, plus lots of enhancements to do USB and for RAIL support.  (Virtual Server had the ability to run headless and has scripting, as does Windows VPC.)


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Again, you are confusing a piece of software being Dressed Up, with real solid software development off the base antecedent source code. Passing USB or Ethernet frames/packets to a guest OS machine is trivial, since each frame is self-identifying, allowing a simple kludge.
    Of course, the real work would be to allow existing TV Tuner drivers for Windows XP to run Natively on Vista/Windows7 (again Windows 7 is Vista dressed up -- eg they both have the identical Audio problems).
    People who cannot perform that real work should not be rewarded by being shunted over to some Welfare group which claims falsely to Virtualize XP.
    They should be let go from the company and the company should, only then,  hire people who could perform the real work of supporting what is only a handful of multimedia TV Tuner cards which have drivers which work in XP and whose Windows interfaces need to be modified for their continued compatibility.

    People who cannot perform the Real Job at Microsoft will continue to do what they always have: create security holes, then disseminate them to their hacker friends, whose hacking will then Generate the non-Work of having them remove the security hole  that they themselves created.
    This security scam has consumed enormous Microsoft resources which is impossible to quantify.
    I am sick of the "Security Updates".  I want the problem over.
    And that again requires Firing people who are responsible for creating the security holes, purposely.

    The thing that is most surprising is that the TV Tuner card companies themselves are not here stating this point of view.
    These TV Tuner companies must be afraid that Microsoft might implement a complete Block Windows OS systemwide on their products, if they speak up.



    Embedded Eng
    Monday, December 07, 2009 8:40 PM
  • I'm not confusing what Windows Virtual PC is. It just can't do what you want with all the different drivers and hardware available in the PC world.  If it was one set of hardware period, maybe, but even virtualization on the Mac doesn't get any better and they always know what drivers are there.

    What you're asking for is to use virtualization to run older drivers for the host OS and that's not the aim of any virtualzation software.  Windows VPC is solely aimed at the legacy *applications*...

    As for the TV tuner cards, I've always had driver problems going from OS to OS, why things change so much in Windows that the drivers don't work any more I don't have an answer, but if the cards are current, the vendors usally come out with a driver later.  I already have a Win7 driver for my Hauppauge USB tuner...



    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, December 07, 2009 9:33 PM
  • The problem is that there is nothing in Windows 7 or even in Vista which is worth losing the basic functionality of putting PCI cards in the PC, install its device drivers, and then being able to run an application which speaks to that device.
    On a basic sales and marketing level, Microsoft would have been better off just re-releasing Windows XP.
    As soon as existing functionality is lost, functionality to which millions of customers and many product developers have become accustomed, it is hard to imagine what VP at Microsoft is thinking when he decides to destroy that functionality in order to put out a new OS which has less functionality, with some existing functionality Dressed Up.

    If you obsolete existing functionality, that must require some fantastic functionality being added.
    Unless this is some sort of Planned Obsolescence exploitation of the buying public.
    As I have mentioned, USB is not a proper solution for high data rate functionality as TV Tuners transport streams and results in an increased gaggle of external cables surrounding the PC.

    And if Microsoft has a Planned Obsolescence marketing scam policy, then that should be regulated by the US Federal Trade Commission and Congress.

    And Hauppauage is a slow, backward company.  They have had one good idea recently, but they have always been happy to play second fiddle to ATI.  Then ATI collapsed and left Hauppauge the leader.  Hauppauge does not deserve to be the leader and their having that role will retard the TV Tuner industry.

    Embedded Eng
    • Marked as answer by Aeneas32 Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:37 PM
    Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:54 AM