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Can we get a straight answer - Windows does not remember window size and position - Bug or by design? Workaround?

    Question

  • This problem is really for people using the "open each folder in its own window" option.

    When a window is opened it has a size and a location. Whatever window is opened next will have the same size and location. This is so annoying and it should not be behaving this way. EACH window should remember its own size and positioning so that the next time it is opened it will open in the same place and with the same size. This is not happening. When a window is opened in Windows 7, it will open with the size and position of whatever window was last opened. You end up moving and resizing every window once it is opened to get it back where it was the last time you used it.


    This can't possibly be by design. Can someone tell me if this is a bug or is it by design.

    Here is the million dollar question ... has anyone found a workaround that does not involve using 3rd party software?
    Monday, August 24, 2009 2:31 PM

Answers

  • I went ahead and created a video that explains this issue. Please let me know if you have any questions.

    And again ... Has anyone found a workaround that does not involve using 3rd party software?

    Here is the link to see the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We38xyiX-gg
    • Marked as answer by bucks614 Monday, December 14, 2009 1:05 PM
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:03 PM
  • Hello all,

    I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly.
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:20 AM
    Answerer
  • I am happy to inform you that the much-missed feature of restoring the saved window positions at logon is now fixed. You can get a hotfix that resolves this issue by following this link: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/979560

    Hope this helps,

     Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:33 AM
    Answerer
  • Ok so there are two totally separate issues:

    1) The "Restore previous folder windows at logon" option issue: Originally, this option would only remember the size, but not the position of those windows that were opened at logoff. When the user would log back on, this option causes explorer to re-launch the persisted windows. Since the position did not use to be persisted in Windows 7 (it was persisted in previous versions of the OS), the windows would be launch in a cascaded fashion, starting at the location of the last window that happened to be closed. The hotfix that I mentioned above fixes this issue and restores back the full functionality of this option. If you're seeing problems with this scenario I'd like to hear more about it.

    2) There is a separate issue regarding the way that Windows 7 decides to size and position newly launched folders. In Windows 7, the way the shell works is that it saves the window size and position not on a per folder basis as in other releases, but instead this setting is persisted globally. So if you open folder A, size it the way you like it, when you close it its size and position will be saved to this central location. When you open folder B, its initial size and location will be obtained from this central location. The hotfix I mentioned above does not address this issue. I have passed on this feedback to the team responsible for making these design decisions (User Experience Research).

    Hope this helps clarify things.

    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:11 PM
    Answerer

All replies

  • I'm curious:  didn't 95, 98, NT, 2000, ME, XP, and Vista all do the same thing?
    Monday, August 24, 2009 7:49 PM
  • No. All the previous versions did it correctly.

    Lets say you opened window A ... sized it and moved it where you wanted and then closed it. The next time you opened window A it would be in that same position and have the same size as it did when you closed it.

    That's how it should work and that is how it has always worked as far as I know.



    In windows 7 this is what happens ...

    You opened window A ... size it and move it where you want and then close it. You then open window B and size it and move it where you want and then close it. If you now re-open window A, it will have the size and position of window B.

    Hence the problem.
    In Windows 7 any window that is opened will have the same size and location of whatever window was last opened. It does not retain ITS OWN size and position characteristics.

    Again ...
    1 is this a bug or by design?
    2. Is there a workaround that does not invole 3rd party software?


    Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:36 PM
  • It should work properly, as on our test computers. Please follow the steps below.

    1. Open Registry.

    2. Find the following keys.

    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags
    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU

    3. Delete the keys.

    Please check if the issue persists.

    If it reoccurs, I suggest that you use ShellExView.

    Important Note: Microsoft provides third-party contact information to help you find technical support. This contact information may change without notice. Microsoft does not guarantee the accuracy of this third-party contact information.

    Run ShellExView, in the pane sort the entries with manufacturers. Disable all non-Microsoft *.dll files, and check the result. If the issue does not occur, one of the files can be the culprit. We could narrow down it one by one.


    Arthur Xie - MSFT
    Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:19 AM
    Moderator
  • I am confused. You say this SHOULD be working. However, ALL of my Windows 7 machines exhibit the same exact behavior. Are you saying that ALL of them have bad registry entries?

    It sounds like you are saying that it doesn't really work right so delete these values in the registry and see if that works.
    Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:00 PM
  • Hi,

    I've also noticed this bug!? (is it a bug or a dropped feature?) and this is a real showstopper for me in using Windows 7. That's the reason why I've Vista running atm, else I whould change immediatly to 7 because of some other improvements.

    The fix mentioned above doesn't do the trick. I guess in 7 these settings are actually for remebering the View-Style (which is stored for each folder), but not the folder-size and folder-position.

    What I noticed is, that the checkbox in "Folder Options" to store Sizes individually for every Folder is gone, in my Vista it's there. Also adding the registry entry

    [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced] ClassicViewState = 0

    , which is responsible for this behaviour in Vista, didn't help either.

    I hope this get's fixed or an explanation, why this (in my opinion essential) feature was dropped.
    Thursday, August 27, 2009 6:23 PM
  • I would love to have this fixed as well.  My issue is mostly with input panel, it opens at the top of the screen every time, I don't really care to have it docked all the time, I use my tablet in landscape mode, leaves no space for the browser.  I tried both fixes, but neither fixed it.  In vista you could hold ctrl and click close to save position.
    Friday, August 28, 2009 4:06 AM
  • There sure does seem to be a lot of confusion. There are people out there that are still saying that there is a workaround for this but there isn't that I can see. This is one of the stupidest things I have found in Windows 7.

    How did this issue make it through beta testing?
    Friday, August 28, 2009 8:27 PM
  • I'll give youa straight answer. Are you ready? Answer: individual window size and position is not saved as it should be. Code error, no workaround.
    Friday, August 28, 2009 9:58 PM
  • I have just booted into Windows 3.1, 95, 98, Me, 2000, XP, and Vista:  none of them remember the position of individual explorer folders either.  Just the location of the last one.

    Why is everyone acting like Windows 7 lost something?  Yes it's a feature request, but you aren't losing anything you had before: it's never existed before.

    Friday, August 28, 2009 10:01 PM
  • ShawnB -
    Windows 7's ability to remember size and position of folders is that of senility. To go along with that, the way it sizes icons in folders is completely chaotic. If there was a workaround for this...

    Friday, August 28, 2009 10:12 PM
  • Not being able to reliably control the size and position of windows has irritated me for years and when I went to a dual monitor setup I decided something had to be done.  I bought ZMover (http://www.basta.com/Product.aspx?pid=11) and have never looked back.

    Regards

    Skier641
    • Proposed as answer by mkanet2 Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:26 PM
    Friday, August 28, 2009 10:41 PM
  • The thing is it only remembers folders for desktop shortcuts.

    Friday, August 28, 2009 11:29 PM
  • I swear it doesn't work for me in Vista.  I have two shortcuts on my desktop, one to c:\users\shawn\documents, and another to music (same path).  I open docs, position it in a certain way, then close it.  When I open the music, it opens in the same spot, exactly.  I customize it, close it, then open docs, and now my docs is where I last left music.

    I don't know what I'm doing different other than doing it in a VPC.
    Friday, August 28, 2009 11:51 PM
  • The thing is it only remembers folders for desktop shortcuts.


    What does?  If you're referring to ZMover only 'remembering folders for desktop shortcuts' then you're incorrect.

    Regards

    Skier641
    Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:20 PM
  • Remember Shawn we are talking about people that have the following option selected:
    "Open each folder in it's own window"

    You may have it set to
    "Open each folder in the same window"

    Too see what you have it set to open any window, click on Organize and select "Folder and Search Options".
    Monday, August 31, 2009 12:23 AM
  • The thing is it only remembers folders for desktop shortcuts.


    What does?  If you're referring to ZMover only 'remembering folders for desktop shortcuts' then you're incorrect.

    Regards

    Skier641

    I was refering to windows explorer.
    Monday, August 31, 2009 3:42 AM
  • Remember Shawn we are talking about people that have the following option selected:
    "Open each folder in it's own window"

    You may have it set to
    "Open each folder in the same window"

    Too see what you have it set to open any window, click on Organize and select "Folder and Search Options".
    I think you don't have to set it to "Open each folder in it's own window" to see the effect of remebering the positions.

    In my Vista, every folder opens in the same window and if I open a folder on my Desktop (e.g. I have the folders Programs, Games) it opens in the last size and the last position i've closed it.

    So I choose to open the Programs folder, size it the size I like, put it in the upper right corner and close it. Same for my Games folder, where I set the size and the position (e.g. in the lower left corner) and close it. Next time I open the Programs folder, it has remebered it's position and pops up in the upper right. Same thing with my Games folder, it pops up in the bottom right.

    In Windows 7 the position and size of the last closed folder will become global. So my Programs folder will open like the last folder I closed (the Games folder) and will pop up in the lower right with the size of the Games folder.

    In XP/Vista there is an option similar to this (my OS is not in english): "Save positions and sizes for each folder" where you can disable this behaviour. Maybe Shawn has deactivated this.

    You can also find this setting in your Registry: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced\ClassicViewState. If ClassicViewState is set to 0, Windows SHOULD remeber the size and position of every folder. If its set to 1, it does not and behave like 7.
    Monday, August 31, 2009 1:50 PM
  • You are correct. Those options are probably available in Windows XP and Windows Vista. But you said it perfectly ... In Windows 7 the position and size of the last closed folder will become global.

    Obviously the registry action does not work in Windows 7 because there isn't even an entry for "ClassicViewState".

    I can't believe no one has found a possible workaround for this.
    Please let me know if you have a workaround or if you know if it is going to be fixed.
    Monday, August 31, 2009 5:16 PM
  • I don't have windows 7 on a my drive right now but if you add this key "ClassicViwewState" could it make a difference?
    Monday, August 31, 2009 7:39 PM
  • I'm kind of afraid to add that registry entry without knowing what it will do. Somebody want to try it out? :)
    Monday, August 31, 2009 7:41 PM
  • I'm kind of afraid to add that registry entry without knowing what it will do. Somebody want to try it out? :)
    I did...didn't help much ^^
    Monday, August 31, 2009 8:29 PM
  • Well, I just did a clean install of windows 7 to see if this would work and navigated to that registry key "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced\ClassicViewState" and what do know? It was already there so of course no need to add it and also it's value was set to "0".
    I think it might be in that bagsmru section.
    Monday, August 31, 2009 8:45 PM
  • You have to understand how software comes to be.

    All the prior developers who toiled long and hard to refine Explorer, and understood the "undocumented features" and nuances have been 1) promoted, 2) reassigned, 3) retired, 4) replaced by outsourcing.

    Now the wheel must be reinvented. It will take time to retune the behavior of explorer. Some features will never make it back in.

    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:52 AM
  • I do not have the following entry in my registry:

    "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced\ClassicViewState"

    I am using Windows 7 Enterprise 64 bit RTM. I seriously do not know how you are seeing it.
    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 12:54 PM
  • I upgraded from Vista and the value is there and set to 0 (32-bit RTM).  However, setting it to 1 did not seem to fix the issue.


    Ralph Bley
    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:42 PM
  • That makes sense. It really shouldn't be there after an upgrade but it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't work.
    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 2:21 PM
  • That key may not exist on the 64 bit version. Any way, I think the size/position thing is a bug and not by design. When improvements or changes were made by modifying code to add features it produced this effect.

    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 3:57 PM

  • I think it would take an astute, detail-conscious person to notice.

    Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:20 PM
  • I don't know about that at all.

    At least 7 people I know using W7 has asked me about this issue. if you use the "open each folder in its own window" option, it takes only a few seconds to realize that there is a problem and that it affects the user significantly.
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:20 AM
  • I went ahead and created a video that explains this issue. Please let me know if you have any questions.

    And again ... Has anyone found a workaround that does not involve using 3rd party software?

    Here is the link to see the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We38xyiX-gg
    • Marked as answer by bucks614 Monday, December 14, 2009 1:05 PM
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 2:03 PM
  • That was a very entertaining video and to the point, I hope the more people watch this the more they will realize and understand the issue.
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:10 PM
  • I was hoping it made sense. Thanks!
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:19 PM
  • Great idea and an excellent video. Hope it makes this bug more popular so that they fix it soon.
    Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:39 PM
  • Man, are you ever wrong! All versions of Windows upto XP remember folder settings faithfully. In Vista, the problem surfaced with folder view settings. For the most part it is ok, but when you have a lot of files and folders things get forgotten.

    In Windows 7 the folder views are completely and utterly screwed!
    Friday, September 04, 2009 1:22 AM
  • Man, are you ever wrong! All versions of Windows upto XP remember folder settings faithfully. In Vista, the problem surfaced with folder view settings. For the most part it is ok, but when you have a lot of files and folders things get forgotten.

    In Windows 7 the folder views are completely and utterly screwed!

    I remember Windows 2000 not remembering.  And I know XP doesn't.

    But the second part I totally agree with.
    Friday, September 04, 2009 1:40 AM
  • That is not how XP or 2000 behaved. Remember, we are talking about using the "Open each folder in it's own window" option. XP always remembers where your windows was and its size.

    Watch the video and see how Windows 7 does it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We38xyiX-gg
    Friday, September 04, 2009 12:58 PM
  • Opening folders in the same window will also give the same result. Open a folder with a shortcut on the desktop. Close it. Open another folder like my computer from the start menu. Same size and position as the one I opened and closed from the desktop shortcut. This is definatley unique to windows 7 and I have not seen it happen on either XP or Vista both of which I have running with 7 in a triple boot configuration to compare all three quickly.

    Friday, September 04, 2009 4:18 PM
  • Is it important whether you launch folder windows in a separate process? I personally don't see this issue as I have only one shortcut to explorer on my desktop, but out of curiosity ...
    Friday, September 04, 2009 5:57 PM
  • Launching folders in a seperate process had no effect when I tested it.
    Friday, September 04, 2009 6:01 PM
  • Launching folders in a seperate process had no effect when I tested it.

    Right.

    The only effect that SeparateProcess has is that all Explorer windows are run in a different process than the initial explorer.exe process, which handles the Start Menu, desktop, and Taskbar.

    Two explorer processes instead of one.
    Friday, September 04, 2009 7:08 PM
  • In my option it is a design flaw, demonstrated by the bag registry keys being generated in previous versions even when the "Remember each folder's view settings" is selected , hence why I believe they dropped the option from Windows 7 since it never really worked right.  And we won't even go into the worthless desktop.ini files.

    I am astounded that MS is so maliciously obtuse not to comprehend that some of us don't want our explorer windows changing (ever ).  It serves me no purpose, while I don't begrudge those who like the feature it seems especially vindictive, as well as wasteful, not to provide a simple default view for those who find the feature trite.   And Window Vista\7 increased the insanity with the folder sniffing\folder type nonsense.   I especially don't like the idea fiddling with the registry to implement a work-around that MS can't be bothered to provide.   And even after the work-around Bag keys are still being generated bloating up my registry.


    The following site has a good workaround:

    www.tweakguides .com/VA_4.html
    • Edited by tachikoma Saturday, September 05, 2009 12:04 AM
    Friday, September 04, 2009 11:46 PM
  • Now I see what's happening here. There have bean three major complaints. Allthree of these are causing confusion. Three seperate issues. The first is windows does not remember the size of icons in folders. The second is windows does not remember the size and position of individual windows. There is a workaround to correct the size of icons but no one yet has solved windows size and position as far as I know. The third major issue is disabling auto arrange icons in folders. Either way for two of these there is no workaround and why these features are gone we do not know.

    Article 1.  Window size and position - unsolved

    Article 2.  Disable auto arrange icons and disable align to grid to allow mannualy placing icons - removed and unsolved

    Article 3.  Apply settings to all folders for icons to be the same size - solved registry workaround


    Duck.
    Saturday, September 05, 2009 12:00 AM
  • What I am trying to accomplish here is to get an answer. Is this by design, or is it a bug. The lack of real feedback from Microsoft indicates to me that this is either by design or something that fell through the cracks and they don't want to fix it. I do know that many, many beta testers reported this issue early on so there should not be any excuses. I would really like to know though ... bug or design?
    Monday, September 14, 2009 12:34 PM
  • What I am trying to accomplish here is to get an answer. Is this by design, or is it a bug. The lack of real feedback from Microsoft indicates to me that this is either by design or something that fell through the cracks and they don't want to fix it. I do know that many, many beta testers reported this issue early on so there should not be any excuses. I would really like to know though ... bug or design?


    The way these forums are run in a way explains a lot about the Windows7 issues. With all due respect the [MSFT] people here go through the Q&A scripts same as the call centre of a network operator when your phone line doesn't work.
    My feeling is that Windows7 software development has been arranged according the same approach: cut into pieces and outsourced to various sub-groups or maybe even sub-contractors.
    Same as with your phone line: as long as it works you are a happy customer, as soon as you hit a problem then there is really nothing to do, the machine is just too big to fight against. I doubt the [MSFT] people here are able to tell you if it's a bug or it's by design. You must have noticed that during the beta and RC periods the answers here were given by people in Redmond possibly with some not too remote contact with the developers. Now that Windows 7 is a released product support is provided by MSFT Chinese personnel who obviously have zero contact with the developers.



    Monday, September 14, 2009 3:36 PM
  • I'm sure that's the case... honestly.  I know it is broken down.  My cynical side wants to believe that they took the feature out to almost defacto force people to position their own windows with the new snap stuff... grr.
    Monday, September 14, 2009 4:25 PM
  • I hope they are not trying to force this on us.
    Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:56 PM
  • unfortunately, the ability to do stuff with your folders (customize) is GONE in RTM.  It sucks hard... I am liking WIN7 less with every experience, even though it is BETTER than VISTA, it's WORSE than XP...
    Friday, September 25, 2009 1:15 AM
  • I'm afraid I'd have to agree. Whilst WindowManager does work around the issue (mostly), it is slow and needs lots of "special entries" to be of any real use. I just spent the better part of 3 days installing Win7 on my production machine, and I had so many application compatibility issues (Like Adobe creative suite, daemon tools, games not working, acrotray crashing and so on), that I had to go back to Vista. And that too was a nightmare. With the 100mb partition Win7 created I couldn't use my Acronis image to restore my system. I had to clean my partitions, recreate my bootrec and restore, then run a startup repair to get it working again.

    I'm afraid there are just too many issues with Win7, and I dont believe M$ will EVER fix it. They haven't fixed the issues for MMC in a decade, and they haven't addressed the mild alzhiemers  on vista in 2 years, so I guess when M$ pull support for VIsta I'll have to go MAC or Linux :-)

    It's disappointing that M$ think everyone thinks they way they do, or worse, try to force us to think like them (shudder)
    Friday, September 25, 2009 1:28 AM
  • When I installed Win7 RC, it was just a matter of days for me to realise how much I hated what they had done to file management; I found that file management and media management (media player, thumbnails, media center, etc) in Windows 7 were truly horrible.
    I was coming from years of XP at home and about one year of Vista on the work laptop so I thought that I was suffering from typical resistance to change and all the people who had hyped how good the beta was could not be wrong and so I kept trying and trying to change my mind.

    Unfortunately several months later I haven't changed my mind.
    Friday, September 25, 2009 2:40 PM
  • It should work properly, as on our test computers. Please follow the steps below.

    1. Open Registry.

    2. Find the following keys.

    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags
    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU

    3. Delete the keys.

    Please check if the issue persists.

    If it reoccurs, I suggest that you use ShellExView.

    Important Note: Microsoft provides third-party contact information to help you find technical support. This contact information may change without notice. Microsoft does not guarantee the accuracy of this third-party contact information.

    Run ShellExView, in the pane sort the entries with manufacturers. Disable all non-Microsoft *.dll files, and check the result. If the issue does not occur, one of the files can be the culprit. We could narrow down it one by one.


    Arthur Xie - MSFT

    I tried this and of course it didn't work. I was going re-install the deleted registry keys but found that they'd already been replaced !

    One of the things I most disliked about Vista was the way it presumed it knew better than I, how I want my folders to behave. I was really pigged off about the way all my folders (of any type) altered themselves to whatever settings I changed any other folder's to, despite having set ‘Remember Folder Settings’.  Now in Win 7 it’s just got worse! Now I find that when I open a folder on the worktop, not only do the settings reflect any change made to another, but also the folder’s size, and I can't find ‘Remember Folder Settings’.

    When I open a folder in Windows Explorer I normally like to use the 'Details' format with the navigation pane visible, but I have folders on the desktop to hold shortcuts to various programmes, Tools, Word Process, Audio Tools, Visual Tools, Games... etc.  When I open these I like to have just the (Medium) Icons showing and no other pane visible.  Obviously these folders have differing numbers of shortcuts in them, so I position and size each open folder for the neatest effect.  Sadly, every time I alter any setting in any one folder anywhere, the effect is reflected in every other folder irrespective of what 'Type' of folder I've opened.   I've  checked out one or two other forums to see if I could get some help but all I find is everyone's asking about this same problem.

    With so many people saying the same thing...  No, complaining about the same thing, isn't it time Microsoft ® addressed the problem and fixed it?   We've all paid enough over the years for a better product, third party 'Fixes' really ought not to be required.

    Buccaneer Mk II

     

    Sunday, October 25, 2009 12:26 PM
  • I have just booted into Windows 3.1, 95, 98, Me, 2000, XP, and Vista:  none of them remember the position of individual explorer folders either.  Just the location of the last one.

    Why is everyone acting like Windows 7 lost something?  Yes it's a feature request, but you aren't losing anything you had before: it's never existed before.

    Nonsense!  Windows 95, 98, and XP all remembered the individual setting of each folder.

    Buccaneer Mk II
    Sunday, October 25, 2009 12:33 PM
  • I went ahead and created a video that explains this issue. Please let me know if you have any questions.

    And again ... Has anyone found a workaround that does not involve using 3rd party software?

    Here is the link to see the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We38xyiX-gg
    Thanks Bucks, a neat job as far as it goes...  

    Please also take a look at my comments in reply to Arthur Xie with reference to the way each folder is displayed.

    ( I didn't mention, I'm using Win.7 Pro. )

    Buccaneer Mk II
    Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:19 PM
  • After spending two hours on the phone with Microsoft Tech support yesterday with two different technicians, and then another hour on line live chat - all of them wanted to take over my machine as they said that this was not the case - and then at the end when they could not get it to remember tried to describe this as a "feature" - it is quite apparent that NO ONE in tech support at Microsoft has a clue that this was "left out" and none would commit as to whether or not this was on the slate or would ever be fixed.  It was very evident that my daughter knows more about Windows operation than the three techs I dealt with - the support level is the absolute worse, I've ever experienced - I'm tired of them telling me "Please to allow me to reconcile this problem for you".

    I can't imagine that corporate America is going to allow its employees to come in and spend the first 15 minutes every day rebuilding their desktop - not exactly a productivity enhancement.  There are several "fixes" posted in groups - but none of them work.  There is supposedly a utility called Windows Manager to fix this - but we shouldn't have to buy a utility to have one of the most basic of functions of Windows.

    I called Redmund and got the company that does their press relations - and told them the story and they honestly acted amazed by this issue.  They gave me the main switch board at Redmond and I was told that I should email the issue to: advocate@microsoft.com

    So everyone - please send your emails now and while you're at it - tell then you want the classic start menu back also.
    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:42 PM
    Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:04 PM
  • No... this is one of the "fixes" that does not work.
    Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:07 PM
  • No workaround as of yet outside of a utility "Windows Manager".  Tech support at Microsoft was NOT aware of this issue as of Wed 10/28.
    Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:09 PM
  • No help at that site for this issue - it's an omission of code in the final version.
    Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:14 PM
  • Folders Don't remember size and possition by design.

    Quote from link, on features removed from Windows 7

    "It is not possible to set Windows Explorer to remember individual window size and position. Each window shares the same size, and their position cascades as more windows are opened."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_7
    Sunday, November 01, 2009 3:25 AM
  • What about different applications? (I am using XP atm)

    For example, I set Outlook and Internet Explorer to be a size that suits my monitor (1920x1600). Each time I open each app, they open the same size and position as last time I opened them (though they cascade if I open more than one at once - I can live with that).

    I would be mightily unimpressed if this were not the case with Win7, and they defaulted to the same size as the last time Windows Explorer was opened...

    I hope that the glitch is one of the earliest updates.. But there's no way they would release a patch just for this. You'd think that Microsoft would be extra cautious about making fundamental changes like this after the great Vista stumble...


    Monday, November 02, 2009 12:28 AM
  • Outlook and IE usually remember their settings for me.

    I have used them on Vista, Windows 7 RC, and Windows 7 RTM, all x64 versions.
    Monday, November 02, 2009 2:08 AM
  • Hello all,

    I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly.
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:20 AM
    Answerer
  • In my option it is a design flaw, demonstrated by the bag registry keys being generated in previous versions even when the "Remember each folder's view settings" is selected , hence why I believe they dropped the option from Windows 7 since it never really worked right.  And we won't even go into the worthless desktop.ini files.

    I am astounded that MS is so maliciously obtuse not to comprehend that some of us don't want our explorer windows changing (ever ).  It serves me no purpose, while I don't begrudge those who like the feature it seems especially vindictive, as well as wasteful, not to provide a simple default view for those who find the feature trite.   And Window Vista\7 increased the insanity with the folder sniffing\folder type nonsense.   I especially don't like the idea fiddling with the registry to implement a work-around that MS can't be bothered to provide.   And even after the work-around Bag keys are still being generated bloating up my registry.


    The following site has a good workaround:

    www.tweakguides .com/VA_4.html
    tachikoma, Do you know if this workaround is applicable to Win7?



    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:40 PM
  • The Bags and BagsMRU registry changes will not work for Windows 7.

    This UI change in 7 is very frustrating, seems like a glaring omission or an arrogant, paternal decision.
    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:29 PM
  • Thanks for positive news Alexander! Good to know that this annoying as ____ issue is been taken care off, hopefully soon!
    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 4:29 PM
  • Hello all,

    I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly.
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


    Hello Alexander,

    I am in the process of evaluating Win7 for use in my company and have had employees trying it out on my personal system. Many of them have commented on the lack of the ability to save the settings in individual folders.

    I will not have them wasting time every day resetting each folders settings so that they may accomplish their work more productively. This issue is a deal breaker for me and my company and I would appreciate some prompt feedback on whether it will or will not be addressed.

    Thank You










    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 4:29 PM
  • Guys,
    I've been having this same sh*&ty problem and I have finally resolved it using the wonderful little utility WindowManager from DeskSoft.com (shareware for $10) only two hours ago! It works well.
    Go ahead and try it. Forget about Microsoft, for the last three years and more we have been nagging them on this exact same issue in Vista, which was never resolved and none of the registry tweaks worked, at least not for me, which is why I have been using XP all along.
    Now I am trying Win 7, which seems to be just a trimmed version of Vista with all the same garbage, only this time WindowManager solved it for me!
    I am not marketing this utility but if you have been as frustrated as I have, then please go ahead and buy it or try it right now and stop wasting your time and energy with MS.
    Shame on you MS!
    AKM
    Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:53 PM
  • I think that I figured it out. When resizing the window DO NOT let the border touch the taskbar. Then close it with the X and open it again. Works for IE and Win Explorer.

    HTH.
    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:07 AM
  • One more thing...
    If you turn Snap off then you can size anything and Windows remembers it without having to avoid the window touching the taskbar when sizing (that's what makes Windows not remember the window's size). Here's how to turn Snap off:

    To turn Snap on or off

    1. Open Ease of Access Center

    2. Under Explore all settings, click Make the mouse easier to use.

    3. Under Make it easier to manage windows, do one of the following:

      • To turn Snap off, select the Prevent windows from being automatically arranged when moved to the edge of the screen check box.

      • To turn Snap on, clear the Prevent windows from being automatically arranged when moved to the edge of the screen check box.

    4. Click OK.

      Once I did that then I could size Explorer and IE, and anything else, just like XP etc.

      Sorry for breaking this up into 2 posts. I didn't realize that Snap was the culprit until I'd already posted my first response.

      HTH
    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:22 AM
  • One more thing...

    Since it's not that Win 7 doesn't remember windows size and position, but that it doesn't remember when Snap is involved, please Microsoft, make it remember the size and position when Snap is on, and windows are snapped into position and then maybe moved where I want them to go. I really like Snap, but it's not worth it if, for it to remember the window size and position, I have to get the window just big enough so that Snap isn't involved...

    Thanks,
    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:44 AM
  • I tried the method you described MJS1A but unfortunately doesnt work.  Window manager does the trick though, too bad we have to use third party software for something that should have been done in windows 7 like it was in XP.
    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:21 AM
  • That's weird. I have Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit. Shouldn't matter though. I have no windows sizing software installed either. The only thing that I can think of is that before turned Snap off I deleted

    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags
    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU

    and have Folder Options set to "open each folder in same window". Although I've changed the "open each folder in same window" to "open each folder in its own window" just to see if it made a difference and it didn't.

    One more thing, I don't really think that deleting the Bags and BagsMRU keys really does anything. I mean, everything except Windows Explorer and IE remembered it's last size and position before I turned off Snap, and deleting them didn't take care of the issue for me.

    It's really weird that my installation of Win 7 will remember, and moragtong's won't. I wonder what's the difference between the two? I have no utilities installed except for normal antivirus and firewall, and am up to date with all of MS updates.

    I will keep looking and see if there's something else that affects this in addition to Snap and post what I find out.

    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 7:50 PM
  • MJS1A

    The size and position of the (Last) Folder is not really the issue.

    The Issue is Explorer doesn't remember size and Position
    of Multiple Folders like it did with XP.

    With XP You could open many Folders drag them to different sizes.
    Position them at different spots on the Desktop, Close them, and when
    reopening them they would all open to the same size, and spot on the Desktop that they were closed.


    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:09 PM
  • MJS1A, it seems you are talking about the Internet Explorer window and the Explorer window (these are application windows not desktop windows). The fact that you had the "open each folder in same window" set means you are not talking about the same issue we are talking about. To you there is really one open window in explore (you call it explorer window) which you move around and whenever you open anything, it is within that same window.  So when you close this only window you are using (and it being the only window and your last window) and reopen it, it will open in the same location and size as you last closed it.
    Now, in our case we are using several separate windows and we open each folder in its own window, and here is where Win 7, like Vista, mess up! Neither will remember where each window was opened and what size it was! They will open each consecutive window in the size and location of the last one closed, as user0one explained in much fewer words!
    So far WindowManager seems to be our only option, I am not sure if there are similar utilities out there, I would appreciate any info on them.
    Bless you all.
    AKM
    Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:54 PM
  • Do we know how XP was able to remember the location/size of each folder?  Was it stored in each folder's hidden "desktop.ini" file?  Or was it in the registry (if so, how many could it remember, and in which subkey?).

    My theory is that if I can understand how XP maintained and remembered folder size/screen positions, I'll be one step closer in understanding why Vista/7 do not.
    Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:08 AM
  • Sorry for the misunderstanding. I see what you're saying. Thanks for reexplaning it to me. Hope that I haven't muddied the waters here.
    Thursday, November 05, 2009 6:04 AM
  • Thank you for clarifying this. Individual window sizing and positioning is stored in Vista's memory but not Windows 7.

    Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:28 AM
  • Hi all
    I've been reading this thread with some amusement, I too have been having the same problem, only with Windows Picture Viewer. When I use it to preview a picture, it opens on the bottom of the stack, instead of the top, which to be frank, is pointless. I've just upgraded from XP, and everything else about 7 is great, apart from this one niggling annoyance.
    Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:05 AM
  • Hi all
    I've been reading this thread with some amusement, I too have been having the same problem, only with Windows Picture Viewer. When I use it to preview a picture, it opens on the bottom of the stack, instead of the top, which to be frank, is pointless. I've just upgraded from XP, and everything else about 7 is great, apart from this one niggling annoyance.

    Report it as disfunctional.
    Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:57 AM
  • How do I do that?
    Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:50 PM
  • Hello all,

    I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly.
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Alexander, Thank you for this post, I'm sure everyone using Windows 7 will be relieved to read your statement.  I'd like to draw your attention to an associated problem, here is an excerpt from a posting I made in another forum.

    One of the things I most disliked about Vista was the way it presumed it knew better than I, how I want my folders to behave. I was really pigged off about the way all my folders (of any type) altered themselves to whatever settings I changed any other folder's to, despite having set ‘Remember Folder Settings’.  Now in Win 7 it’s just got worse! Now I find that when I open a folder on the worktop, not only do the settings reflect any change made to another, but also the folder’s size, and I can't find ‘Remember Folder Settings’. 

     

    When I open a folder in Windows Explorer I normally like to use the 'Details' format with the navigation pane visible, but I have folders on the desktop to hold shortcuts to various programmes, Tools, Word Process, Audio Tools, Visual Tools, Games... etc.  When I open these I like to have just the (Medium) Icons showing and no other pane visible.  Obviously these folders have differing numbers of shortcuts in them, so I position and size each open folder for the neatest effect.  Sadly, every time I alter any setting in any one folder anywhere, the effect is reflected in every other folder irrespective of what 'Type' of folder I've opened.   I've  checked out one or two other forums to see if I could get some help but all I find is everyone's asking about this same problem.

    The Ancient Mariner~

     

    • Proposed as answer by bigjohn-s Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:37 PM
    Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:44 PM
  • Wow. Where are all the posts?  I made several to this thread before -- have they been DELETED?

    FYI I returned 800$ in windows upgrades because this feature does not work.  Because I cannot control what an open folder looks like, or where it opens, or what it displays "INDIVIDUALLY".

    That, plus breadcrumbs, and the stupid 2" thick "chrome" on top of all folders...

    XP 64 is my current OS.  It works the way I want it to not the way someone else does.  That's my biggest complaint with Apple, by the way... THEIR WAY or the HIGHWAY... Well, Microsoft seems to be on that bus too.

    John
    • Proposed as answer by bigjohn-s Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:04 AM
    • Unproposed as answer by Alexander SklarEditor Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:12 AM
    • Proposed as answer by bigjohn-s Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:26 PM
    • Unproposed as answer by Carey FrischMVP, Moderator Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:16 PM
    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:30 PM
    Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:04 AM
  • Hello all,

    I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly.
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Hello Alexander,

    Thank you for your post, even if it does sound like a script.  However, the people here, including me, want to know if something will actually be done about the problem.  It's not enough to "take it seriously" and give it "appropriate consideration."  It needs to be fixed.  Windows 7 is totally unacceptable to me as it now functions. 

    Please let us know - I have a few days yet before I must return my new laptop.
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:02 PM
  • I rely on this behavior to "tile" my desktop with open windows and applications.  Each time I open them, they appear exactly how and where I previously put them.
    My preference for file folder windows is slightly different. I'd prefer that window size and position only be remembered when I explicitly ask them to be, for example by ctrl+clicking the close button. This way, I wouldn't have to worry about messing up my saved window settings if I temporarily rejiggered some windows for the task at hand.

    Actually, for the most part, I don't want window settings to be saved. But, for certain folders that I open frequently, this functionality would absolutely be useful.

    @Alexander Sklar: Developer replies are definitely appreciated, so thank you. Please keep us updated...
    • Edited by joeboxer Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:47 PM clarified "for file folder windows"
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:24 PM
  • minnesotadon-
    If you feel this strongly about this particular UI behavior, whether by Bug or Design, you should get your money back.
    You will not be happy with Windows 7.

    I believe Dell is still offering the "pre-installed downgrade to XP" on its notebooks.
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:27 PM
  • Hi fanfarenj

    Not a bad idea.  I have several computers, and actually no problems (any more) with Vista, so perhaps I should return this and get a Vista machine if possible.

    I could tolerate this for a while if Msoft gave ANY indication that they WILL fix it.  Meantime I'll try that little $10 third-party program from Desksoft.com and see if I get a little less pissed-off at Msoft.
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:57 PM
  • As some of the other members have mentioned, the Desksoft.com program called WindowsManager works reasonably well.  It automagically remembers the sizes and positions of several kinds of windows, most especially Windows Explorer folders.  It doesn't do well when two folders have the same name, because it remembers only the folder name and not the full path, but I haven't tried all of the options yet.

    If I were Microsoft:  I'd buy these guys out, set them up for life and send their kids to college, make sure this thing can remember paths as well as folder names, and create a downloadable patch out of it.  Better yet an automatic update.

    Otherwise, the reputation of Windows 7 will become as muddy as that of Vista.  This is no small matter.
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:20 PM
  • Seems to be a revised version of Vista with fewer features, especially explorer - although the desktop theme is fabulous.
    Seesons greetings!
    Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:02 PM
  • y'know, that's a fantastic idea :-)

    Just need to fix a few of things with WindowManager tho.

    It runs two services (at least x64 it does), only about 10mb of RAM. But Windows used to remember the window sizes/positions etc without additional services to do it. Getting back to that would be excellent

    Also, WM can be slow at times. You can see the windows moving and changing shape as WM applies your settings for that particular folder, even on an overclocked I7-920.

    And lastly, There are times when it cuts off parts of dialogs making some buttons inaccepssible, because the last window size was smaller than the one being displayed, and they can't be resized. This happens most noteably with install programs, like Canons printer installers, Adobe CS4 Installer, iTumes and others. You could delete the entry from WM's database and start the installer again, but what a hassle.

    I paid my $10. I would have paid more. The lack of functionality in Win 7 explorer is so annoying that WM is worth it, even with it's few idiosyncrasies.

    Friday, November 20, 2009 4:39 AM
  • Yep - I wish that WM could be configured to do its magic only on the windows of explorer.exe.  Other programs pretty much take care of themselves, and if they don't it's not because of Windows 7.  I haven't yet figured out a way to make WM do that.

    I'm paying the $10 too.  Heck with Microsoft - if they do decide this is a problem, it will take a year for them to fix it.
    Friday, November 20, 2009 4:19 PM
  • Those of you using ATI Video Cards could try the Hydravision  application that comes with the ATI Driver package. It is a Desktop Manager. Works good on My XP puters. My 7 PC just uses motherboard video , so not sure how Hydravision works with Windows 7

    Friday, November 20, 2009 5:25 PM

  • unfortunately, the ability to do stuff with your folders (customize) is GONE in RTM.  It sucks hard... I am liking WIN7 less with every experience, even though it is BETTER than VISTA, it's WORSE than XP...




    Bigjohn-s, tell us why you feel it's better than Vista. I will debate you and the moderators will delete me instead.


    Boots faster.  Networking seems more stable.  Great improvements in video performance.  HDD performance near that of XP.
    But this damn UI "do it our way or f-off" mantra, well... bleh.
    So, I returned a BUNCH of upgrades.  Maybe wehn this is fixed I'll revisit the issue.
    Friday, November 20, 2009 9:25 PM
  • Are you guys noticing the theme here?  One post from a microsoft guy.  a couple trying to defend teh decision from an MVP or 2...  Then the rest of us trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

    Why should we PAY for a third party application AFTER paying to "upgrade" to windows 7? Only to find LESS functionality?

    There are DOZENS of UI threads in this forum talking about similar issues relative to THINGS NOT WORKING as expected.  Where did the expectation come from?  Why from Using WINDOWS for 20+ years...  From watching features get ADDED not removed.

    This is NOT windows if it does not contain all that WINDOWS is known to do.  They should call it PCOS-7, but not windows, because it's not doing what an upgrade to WINDOWS should do.


    "I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
    Friday, November 20, 2009 9:43 PM
  • First, it is possible in both Vista and Windows 7 to get a separate Explorer window each time you run a shortcut, even with the "Open each folder in the same window" option selected.  Simply put this in the Target field: 

        C:\Windows\explorer.exe  C:\

    This gives you the advantage of being able to both open multiple Explorer windows if you like, but also the ability to double click folders in a window and not have another window pop up.  I find this to my liking.

    With the above setup, Vista will remember a different folder position and size for each different target (i.e., the folder location just after explorer.exe).  That is, until it starts forgetting things in general.  There are registry tweaks to help reduce that but they only go so far.

    --

    However, even with the above workaround, Windows 7 still insists on there being one and only one window size and position for Explorer.  This is a MAJOR reduction in convenience, for those who like to be able to open two windows (e.g., to two different drives, or maybe two different computers) and drag things between them.

    Please add my voice to those requesting a fix for this.

    Thank you.

    -Noel

    Saturday, November 21, 2009 4:08 AM
  • I've skimmed through the above and unless I've missed it, there's still no solution.

    I experience the problem with IE8 and WMP too. This is annoying the heck out of me. It's a 'feature' that goes out of its way to undo any productivity gains touted as a benefit of Win7.

    Are e any closer to a simple solution?
    Saturday, November 21, 2009 10:23 AM
  • It's a feature, not a bug.  Believe it or not, it's quite intentional on Microsoft's part.  Folder window size and position now revert to the currently open window or the last-closed window.  Period.

    I wrote to advocate@microsoft.com, as suggested by WarpCorp, and received a phone call from a Microsoft Escalations Support Engineer.  He is apparently on a team evaluating the seriousness of this issue.  He had little to offer for immediate workarounds, but wanted to learn how I used the computer and why I cared about folder size and position.  He did suggest jump lists and window "snap," but neither of those really helps me a lot.

    Bottom line, there is no help from Microsoft, though there is the possibility that size and position memory will be restored as an update someday.  Or not.

    I've experimented with WindowManager from www.Desksoft.com, trying to get it to remember only folder windows and leave everything else alone.  I think there may be a new update coming which will make that easier.  Jack had not heard about this, by the way, but he has now.
    Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:44 PM
  • This Operating System is driving me crazy. It's obvious that they expect you to operate out of one window, and not multiple ones, which really makes me question "Why is it called Windows?"

    They need to rename the OS to simply "Window 7", because that term is more accurately descriptive.

    Reading that this was intended, just re-affirms the obvious reality that Microsoft is completely out of touch with what I expect out of Windows, as well as the other users that have posted here. Microsoft does not care to listen to what users want, contrary to the advertising campaign currently aired on television. I was dumbstruck when I viewed the first commercial, making the absurd statement "Windows 7 was my idea". That's funny, because Microsoft has continuously removed key features that I use.

    "Removing Classic Start Menu was my idea" - Lets see that commercial, I want to see who had that bright idea.
    "All your Windows will forget their size and position, that was my idea" - Thanks for the aggravation, Einstein.

    Finding a toothpaste cap ring on the sink once a day can build up a fair amount of aggravation over the course of years. I don't think Microsoft realizes that now, every time I have to open a Window in their new OS, I am getting more and more pissed off and aggravated with it. It's like Microsoft is leaving multiple toothpaste cap rings all over my house every day. The aggravation builds quickly.

    I just want a simple OS, like Win98, that is stable. I don't want a bunch if fancy BS eye candy, and a group of developers deciding what features I can and cannot have in my OS.

    Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:58 PM
  • It's a feature, not a bug.  Believe it or not, it's quite intentional on Microsoft's part.  Folder window size and position now revert to the currently open window or the last-closed window.  Period.

    I wrote to advocate@microsoft.com , as suggested by WarpCorp, and received a phone call from a Microsoft Escalations Support Engineer.  He is apparently on a team evaluating the seriousness of this issue.  He had little to offer for immediate workarounds, but wanted to learn how I used the computer and why I cared about folder size and position.  He did suggest jump lists and window "snap," but neither of those really helps me a lot.

    Bottom line, there is no help from Microsoft, though there is the possibility that size and position memory will be restored as an update someday.  Or not.

    I've experimented with WindowManager from www.Desksoft.com , trying to get it to remember only folder windows and leave everything else alone.  I think there may be a new update coming which will make that easier.  Jack had not heard about this, by the way, but he has now.
    I'm having that conversation now.
    I urge EVERYONE in this thread to send that email and document EVERY SINGLE ONE of your UI pain points.
    PS - I think "jack" is just a generic name.... the person who contacted me is also Jack...

    John
    Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:40 PM
  • I'd be interested to know if anyone outside the US gets contacted by, or even gets a response from M$. I've sent my email to them, and haven't heard anything. I'm from Australia
    Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:50 PM
  • I'd be interested to know if anyone outside the US gets contacted by, or even gets a response from M$. I've sent my email to them, and haven't heard anything. I'm from Australia
    Did you send to that advocate email?
    Make sure microsoft.com is permitted in your email..
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 2:51 AM
  • Sure did.
    Sure is.
    Sent another one today too.
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 4:42 AM
  • this gose really to the heart of what i said about win 7 was rushed to market.
    how silly can ms to release win 7 with ie 8 that works perfict in xp and now cant remeber the window size as you surf.
    this is a huge issue for most fast multi page surf people.
    it seems to me that someone really is asleep there or they just belive in there vision.
    i see this alot in design.
    it all about my vision.
    all about me.
    what ms fails best at is understanding we are people.
    all different with diffent tastes and needs.
    no one size dose not fit all.
    kinda like the ssd ready thing in win 7 or the sata install or ACHI bugs.
    it bad enough we have to throw out old hardware due to lack of driver surport or buy a new pc due hardware conflicts.
    not to metion the fact that windows 7 has a horible carbon footprint due to all the e waste it will make.
    infact if i had obama ear i would have him go after software companys and make sure that if they cant promise vendor driver surport then they cant release a product that may produce massive e waste.
    no one thinks of all the e waste pc represent.
    it really shows me the thinking that went into this product when it auto resizes my windows.
    i seen alot of issues in win 7 but this one is really silly.
    you expect us to pay 200 dollers for a product that looks pretty but dose what ever it likes and not what i want it to do.
    bugs like this are really deal breaker for most small companys that dont have time or resources to play games and spend money on new hardware when xp and ie 8 works.
    how cant you expect to move people off of xp after the vista mistakes.
    sound like very bad marketing to me.
    i do feel ms rushed this product to market far to soon.
    i do think it might be a good product if ms could light a fire under the vendors that wont surport older hardware with no logo's on new hardware if they fail to meet a mn standard.
    after all this is in ms best intreast.
    it is in all our best intreast as well on this plannet we share.
    really dont you people there get it yet after vista.
    it people like us that killed vista sales when we told the story of how horible the os was.
    you people need to be doing it better and cleaner most of all if you expect to get anyone off of xp in this climate.
    companys are not spending there it bugets and when they do well they will be very selective in what they do buy.
    win 7 represents a higher cost due to it hardware but when the os fails to meet certin expections well thats just plain wrong.
    i dont see ubuntu or apple as a risk to your market share or sales but i can tell you this one thing,i do see xp with light hardware requirements and low costs as a seroius threat to you in this climate most of all if you cant change us early on.

    my thoughts ,orion.
    Thursday, November 26, 2009 5:18 PM
  • I, too, wrote to advocate@microsoft.com, and received a phone call.
    We discussed the Win7 Folder and Explorer UI problems (as discussed elsewhere - views not remembering their settings, Navigation Pane highlighting 'current' right-pane folder very low on screen, etc.)
    He said that the situation (i.e. lost functionality) was recognized by M$, including mention of 3rd-party software (which they would like to avoid), and that the escalation of the concerns would result in something happening, perhaps within a few weeks.
    We'll see.

    Saturday, November 28, 2009 4:37 PM
  • It's great to know Microsoft is listening and has acknowledged user concerns.

    They don't know how important (and lacking) it is to just provide some feedback, because otherwise they seem like a lumbering corporate giant who doesn't care what we want.

    -Noel

    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Monday, December 14, 2009 7:21 PM
    Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:56 PM
  • This Operating System is driving me crazy. It's obvious that they expect you to operate out of one window, and not multiple ones, which really makes me question "Why is it called Windows?"

    They need to rename the OS to simply "Window 7", because that term is more accurately descriptive.

    Reading that this was intended, just re-affirms the obvious reality that Microsoft is completely out of touch with what I expect out of Windows, as well as the other users that have posted here. Microsoft does not care to listen to what users want, contrary to the advertising campaign currently aired on television. I was dumbstruck when I viewed the first commercial, making the absurd statement "Windows 7 was my idea". That's funny, because Microsoft has continuously removed key features that I use.

    "Removing Classic Start Menu was my idea" - Lets see that commercial, I want to see who had that bright idea.
    "All your Windows will forget their size and position, that was my idea" - Thanks for the aggravation, Einstein.

    Finding a toothpaste cap ring on the sink once a day can build up a fair amount of aggravation over the course of years. I don't think Microsoft realizes that now, every time I have to open a Window in their new OS, I am getting more and more pissed off and aggravated with it. It's like Microsoft is leaving multiple toothpaste cap rings all over my house every day. The aggravation builds quickly.

    I just want a simple OS, like Win98, that is stable. I don't want a bunch if fancy BS eye candy, and a group of developers deciding what features I can and cannot have in my OS.



    Microsoft wanted to do an OS for people who wouldn't dream of visiting a site called "TechNet". It's a good thing. Unfortunately to achieve this noble goal they chose to frustrate the experienced users.

    To achieve simplicity there were two routes:

    1) take away functionality
    2) hide the complexity unless you have a reason to see it

    They went for option 1 because it takes less money and time to implement.

    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:12 PM
    Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:15 PM
  • Microsoft wanted to do an OS for people who wouldn't dream of visiting a site called "TechNet". It's a good thing. Unfortunately to achieve this noble goal they chose to frustrate the experienced users.

    To achieve simplicity there were two routes:

    1) take away functionality
    2) hide the complexity unless you have a reason to see it

    They went for option 1 because it takes less money and time to implement.


    Windows made simple:  So simple that only a simpleton could like it.
    Sunday, November 29, 2009 2:50 AM
  • Continue to email  EVERY instance... that is the only way to keep focus on these horrible failures in the UI.
    Hacks and work-arounds might be OK for some, but I want the features I had PLUS the upgrade they want me to pay $120 for...
    Monday, November 30, 2009 11:04 PM
  • A few people have mentioned DeskSoft's WindowManager software, which is proprietary and costs 10$ if you decide to keep it.  I used it for a while, but found that it didn't quite do what I wanted, and I knew that when the time limit expired I wouldn't buy it.  So I wrote some Free software to remember Explorer window positions for me.

    WindowsWhere keeps your Explorer windows where you want them, and that's it.  Right now it is *alpha software*; that means it runs on my machine (Windows 7, 32 bit, 32 bit machine) more or less correctly; it might set your computer on fire.  It doesn't have many features (just about 1, in fact), but that's not all bad: I only wanted the 1 feature anyway.  And, if new features are requested, it might even grow to implement them.

    WindowsWhere is released under the GPL v3.  It is written in C++ and C#.  You can download the source and installer here . If you are a developer and have been bitten by this problem, give it a try; maybe you'll end up contributing. If you just want to give it a try, feel free (no warranty, of course!); or, wait until the first beta release, which should occur in the next week or two.

    Anyway, hope that helps someone else until Microsoft fixes this problem!
    Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:21 AM
  • Thanks so much for taking the time to work on this - but this is TRULY something MICROSOFT should not have changed in the first place...  They GUTTED windows explorer, for whatever reasons, and the results are NOT good.  Power users are not going to LIVE inside "libraries" browsing for pictures or mp3's.  I have an MP3 player, thank you very much...

    The final responses that i got from "advocate" Jack were less than satisfactory - not quite a 'blow off', but....

    John
    Wednesday, December 02, 2009 12:32 PM
  • They basically told you that Win7 would continue to operate as-is, but that if they ever decide to fix it, that fix will come in the form of a Service Pack or an Update, right?

    Well, duh. How else were they going to get the code to me? Carrier pigeon?

    At least they're listening, which is more than I expected. Still hopeful!
    Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:33 PM
  • They basically told you that Win7 would continue to operate as-is, but that if they ever decide to fix it, that fix will come in the form of a Service Pack or an Update, right?

    Well, duh. How else were they going to get the code to me? Carrier pigeon?

    At least they're listening, which is more than I expected. Still hopeful!

    Right.
    I went on to further explain that "functioning as designed" does not qualify them as an upgrade to what I had with XP, and, that as such I am recommending to all my peers that they hold off on ditching XP at their companies for a while...  I know lots of teams that use the folder/position functionality, and many of the other UI tweeks that Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom? decided to disable, remove, or break in Win7...

    I also advised them that I returned 800 worth of upgrades that I was going to do at my house, and, until it's fixed WIN7 is contained to a laptop and a virtual machine on my primary desktop computer.

    I use the VM more and more every day to try to emulate what i am doing daily with XP, and i stumble over another issue, problem, or very odd  "why would they make that work that way" moment every day.

    John

    Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:18 PM
  • Received email from "Jack", as above. The "functioning as designed" gives me a bad feeling.
    M$ couldn't possibly have consciously designed Win7 Explorer to behave this way. It just doesn't make sense.
    No user, if ever questioned/interviewed/studied/etc. would have requested such changes to be made. Their commercials are patently false.
    And, as stated above and in other forums, other problems have appeared: Folders not remembering their settings, cluttered Navigation Pane, right-panel item not readily visible or expanded in the Navigation Pane, almost useless Status Bar, Navigation Pane being universal on/off for all folders, and many more subtle but annoying items.
    These changes show a disrespect for the user and their established workflow pattern. For new users, it might not matter - it's just the way it is. But for folks who have been working with Windows for years it's disturbing.
    When XP users become fully aware that they have to completely re-create their environment to "upgrade", and additionally, the way they worked will have to be changed, they're not going to be happy.
    When asked about my Vista/Win7 experience, I recommend to folks to wait until further notice.

    Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:22 PM
  • I'm not asking them to make the old behavior the default or anything (if they're proud of the new way Explorer [doesn't] work, that's fine), but I wouldn't be against sacrificing an extra 100-500MB of RAM to get the old behavior back. At least make it an option. Even a downloadable one, like the Live Essentials stuff.

    Almost tempted to go back to Vista. Almost.
    Thursday, December 03, 2009 8:56 PM
  • Received email from "Jack", as above. The "functioning as designed" gives me a bad feeling.
    M$ couldn't possibly have consciously designed Win7 Explorer to behave this way. It just doesn't make sense.
    No user, if ever questioned/interviewed/studied/etc. would have requested such changes to be made. Their commercials are patently false.
    And, as stated above and in other forums, other problems have appeared: Folders not remembering their settings, cluttered Navigation Pane, right-panel item not readily visible or expanded in the Navigation Pane, almost useless Status Bar, Navigation Pane being universal on/off for all folders, and many more subtle but annoying items.
    These changes show a disrespect for the user and their established workflow pattern. For new users, it might not matter - it's just the way it is. But for folks who have been working with Windows for years it's disturbing.
    When XP users become fully aware that they have to completely re-create their environment to "upgrade", and additionally, the way they worked will have to be changed, they're not going to be happy.
    When asked about my Vista/Win7 experience, I recommend to folks to wait until further notice.

    Designed by a 7yr old, for a 7 yr old.  Windows 7.
    Thursday, December 03, 2009 8:59 PM
  • Designed by a 7yr old, for a 7 yr old.  Windows 7.

    Your PC made simple.
    Friday, December 04, 2009 2:21 AM
  • Designed by a 7yr old, for a 7 yr old.  Windows 7.

    Your PC made simple.
    Short bus, no sharp edges simple.
    Friday, December 04, 2009 3:47 AM
  • Designed by a 7yr old, for a 7 yr old.  Windows 7.

    Your PC made simple.
    Short bus, no sharp edges simple.
    You're a PC, and Happy is coming.
    Get with the program!

    Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:35 AM
  • No worries from me, you solved the problem that was driving me nuts.

    Much obliged...
    Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:39 AM
  • Received email from "Jack", as above. The "functioning as designed" gives me a bad feeling.
    M$ couldn't possibly have consciously designed Win7 Explorer to behave this way. It just doesn't make sense.
    No user, if ever questioned/interviewed/studied/etc. would have requested such changes to be made. Their commercials are patently false.
    And, as stated above and in other forums, other problems have appeared: Folders not remembering their settings, cluttered Navigation Pane, right-panel item not readily visible or expanded in the Navigation Pane, almost useless Status Bar, Navigation Pane being universal on/off for all folders, and many more subtle but annoying items.
    These changes show a disrespect for the user and their established workflow pattern. For new users, it might not matter - it's just the way it is. But for folks who have been working with Windows for years it's disturbing.
    When XP users become fully aware that they have to completely re-create their environment to "upgrade", and additionally, the way they worked will have to be changed, they're not going to be happy.
    When asked about my Vista/Win7 experience, I recommend to folks to wait until further notice.


    I was amazed today to look in my inbox and there was a reply from Microsoft Australia. I thought I'd post it for the link and phone number provided.. And it was so polite it made me feel all warm and fuzzy :-) At least they are trying.

    ----

    Warm greetings from Microsoft Customer Service Australia.

     

    As I understand it, you have provided feedbacks in regards to Windows 7. If I have misunderstood your concern, please let me know.

     

    Tanya, thank you for your feedback regarding Windows 7. We appreciate the time and effort you have taken to approach us with this information. Please be assured that your feedback is considered useful and constructive.

     

    May I please suggest you access the feedback and idea center if you have any further feedback and suggestion regarding Microsoft products where it will be reviewed by the most appropriate department. Please follow the link below:

     

    Feedback & Idea Center

    http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/outreach/ideas/ideaSubmit.mspx

     

    I have also escalated your feedback to the products team for further assessment.

     

    I hope I was able to address your enquiry to your satisfaction, should you have further questions relating to this enquiry or any additional enquiries, please do not hesitate to let me know.

     

    Alternatively, for immediate assistance, you can contact Microsoft Customer Service on 13 20 58 (Select Option 2 followed by Option 1) from Monday to Friday, between 8am - 8pm.

     

    Thank you for contacting Microsoft.

     

    Have a wonderful day.

    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Monday, December 07, 2009 6:53 PM
    Monday, December 07, 2009 4:28 AM
  • Proposed as answer? Which part is the answer? Maybe the "Have a wonderful day" part?
    Monday, December 07, 2009 6:57 PM
  • Proposed as answer? Which part is the answer? Maybe the "Have a wonderful day" part?

    LOL!

    No, I was just proposing it because it lists another place to provide feedback (or complain) about the "design" of Windows Explorer.
    Monday, December 07, 2009 10:14 PM
  • Proposed as answer? Which part is the answer? Maybe the "Have a wonderful day" part?

    LOL!

    No, I was just proposing it because it lists another place to provide feedback (or complain) about the "design" of Windows Explorer.
    Thanks Brian - but we all know the only correct answer is "Windows 7 folders are working as designed"
    Wednesday, December 09, 2009 4:30 AM
  • Possible answers:

    1. By design:  Those (substitute favorite epithet here) in Marketting decided they wanted it to behave that way.
    2. By design?  It never has really worked the way it was intended.  It was decided that to do a good job on this would take more resources than available.
    3. Bug?  It was an unforseen consequence of incorporating the new Taskbar.  And, we did not have enough time to fix it.  We had too many other, more serious problems to deal with. (see #2).
    4. etc.
    Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:29 PM
  • I am glad to see that my post is getting a lot of attention. It is very frustrating that this feature has been removed. I really do not see them fixing this but one can hope though!
    Monday, December 14, 2009 1:02 PM
  • The best solution would be fallback to winxp, which is what I planned to do after two days with win7.

    List of complains:

    The window did not remember is size and position. If I am using a netbook with 1024*600 as my resolution, might be it will be OK, but I am using a 1920*1200 screen. Perhaps the integration of CPU and GPU speed tasks up, but the poor design of UI slow things 100% down.

    The network icon is not flashing

    Where is the classic taskbar? I do not oppose the new one, but we should have a choice between the new one and the classic one.

    Where is the power toy?

    The font looks worst compare to winxp.

    The good:

    Better resistance of virus and spyware 

    eyecandy, but this is not important.

    By far, the main reason for my fallback would be the window position and size issue. This feature was there since win3.1. I used all the windows including the win08, and none of the cut off this BASIC feature. What is the point for opening a new window that block the one you are working on? or have to resize, repositioning it even time you open it? 

    Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:52 AM
  • You are wrong. It does not work.
    Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:09 PM
  • The absence of "righclick / explore" is also a horrible oversight... that was the easiest way in the world to open that second folder to drop a couple files into, or copy from....

    I've still got the Virtual Machine running win7, but it's not in production on any of the 7 computers at my house, and I've encouraged my company to keep it in the lab a while longer, and after demonstrating this UI sillyness, they've agreed...might re-look at it in 2011.

    John
    Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:27 PM
  • i found this to bring back the classic start menu and some other classic functionality http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
    unfortunately it also turned the "shut down" button into drop down box. not like it was on xp http://www.ransen.com/articles/Monet-XP/ShutdownXP.gif
    • Proposed as answer by Brian Borg Monday, December 21, 2009 10:53 PM
    Monday, December 21, 2009 4:38 PM
  • i found this to bring back the classic start menu and some other classic functionality http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
    unfortunately it also turned the "shut down" button into drop down box. not like it was on xp http://www.ransen.com/articles/Monet-XP/ShutdownXP.gif

    Good find, sekka.

    Although I have yet to get the Explorer Windows replacement to work, the Classic Start Menu it provides makes it worth a look.  As far as the Shutdown button, to me it acts just like XP.  It gives me the usual options without making me aim for the little bitty triangle.  I also have the Log Off button back.  Cool.

    It is Open Source, so source code is available and you can compile it yourself if you want.
    Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:32 AM
  • If there is any doubt this is "working as designed", this is a quote from the Help and Support "feature":

    Windows 7 remembers one size and location setting for all your folders and libraries. So each time you open Windows Explorer, it'll open at the same size and location on the desktop that it did the last time you closed it, regardless of which folder or library you open.
    Monday, December 28, 2009 3:34 PM
  • Thanks OldeBill, that pretty much is a final answer if I've ever seen one.  This confirms it was an intentional change, not a bug.

    If anyone wants to see this quote with their own eyes, here's how:
      1 - Press Windows Key + F1 to open the Windows Help and Support.
      2 - Search for the phrase 'windows 7 remembers one size' and then click the only search result.
      3 - Click the FAQ item, 'Why doesn't Windows remember a folder window's size and location on the desktop'

    So if anyone wants to complain about the design change, go ahead.  But we can't call it a bug or problem anymore.
    • Proposed as answer by 3dZiggy Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:04 PM
    Monday, December 28, 2009 7:57 PM
  • To me, it's rather like returning home and finding all the furniture in a jumbled heap, and having to put each piece back in its place - start from scratch every time you walk in the door.

    To be productive, I need my 2-screen-wide desktop to be populated with my stuff where I know where to find it.  'Sleep' works pretty well as one way to retain a workable desktop, both in Vista and 7 (XP was always poor in its 'Sleep' performance, rapidly developing problems), BUT you still have to boot sometimes, and the time wasted in setting up to get to work is ludicrous.

    Just think of ANY worker who uses a variety of tools - a chef, a carpenter, a software designer  - NO NO, that's going too far, I realise that - but everyone needs to know where their tools are, and to me Windows Explorer windows (and other windows) are vital tools - they need to stay where I left them.  It's as simple as that.

    Vista was more or less OK with window memory with the right settings, though not as good as XP.  I'm seriously investigating going back to Vista; XP is going to be viable for a shorter time frame than Vista, and frankly, the thought of having to cope with 7's foibles in its present incarnation is preposterous.

    I tried (and bought) WindowManager from Desksoft, as was suggested, but it doesn't cut the mustard.

    PLEASE PLEASE Microsoft, if I ask REALLY nicely, won't you help a poor soul in distress?  And by the way, check out the latest incarnation of the FAQ in Win 7 (I'm working on an XP machine at the moment, so can't pull the thing up), but it's the FAQ about explorer windows not remembering where they belong.... - it's pure gobbledegook.
    Tuesday, December 29, 2009 12:10 AM
  • Hi everyone, I found this thread after recently "upgrading" my machine to windows 7 64bit, and being incredibly annoyed that the "remember each folder's view settings" option is missing, and I had to resize and move folders every time I opened them.

    after a few days of searching, I have found a great little app (both 32 and 64bit versions, and it's free!) that does exactly what we want it to, and only uses about 2mb of ram.  you can find it here:

    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html


    I did take the time to email microsoft, using one of the links above, and heard back from Jack as well.  I am pretty good with words, so I described how he could recreate the problem on his on pc.  I just heard back from him today, and his response sounds a bit more promising:

    "I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to answer my questions.  The feedback that you have provided is absolutely excellent.  You responses, along with several more are being compiled and will be forwarded to the development team.  As I receive more responses from users like yourself that have taken their valuable time to get in contact with us about how folder size/location functionality is affecting them, I am able to create a more vivid representation of the impact.  This is relayed up to the development teams. 

     

    At this time folders in Windows 7 are functioning “as designed”.  I believe that we are able to prove that this design is not helpful to a significant number of users.  As of this time there is no work around to return the folder functionality that was present in Vista and earlier version of Windows.  If and/or when a change to this functionality is made it will be in the form of either an update or, more likely a Service Pack.  I would strongly advise you to enable Automatic Updates so you can keep your Windows 7 is current as possible."


    he will be calling me tomorrow to discuss it further :)  but in the mean time, ShellFolderFix works perfectly for me. 

    Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:29 PM
  • The answer is "it's by design: it's intentional and documented in the help system and manual".


    If this was helpful, please vote. If it solves the issue, please click Propose as Answer. Thanks!
    • Proposed as answer by Noel Carboni Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:55 AM
    Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:30 PM

  • If you have multiple Windows Open, 
    Rt Click Taskbar
    Hit Keyboard Key I

    That Tiles all the Open Windows together.
    Friday, January 01, 2010 10:15 PM
  • and that helps HOW? That's not at all what we're trying to get back..
    Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:41 PM
  • and that helps HOW? That's not at all what we're trying to get back..

    I agree.  At lease you can use Control+Z (undo) to put it back the way it was before you tried that.
    Saturday, January 02, 2010 11:10 PM
  • Hey I finally learned something productive in this thread:  you can undo window arrangements!  Neat-o!

    :)



    If this was helpful, please vote. If it solves the issue, please click Propose as Answer. Thanks!
    Sunday, January 03, 2010 1:22 AM
  • Hey I finally learned something productive in this thread:  you can undo window arrangements!  Neat-o!

    Yeah, I just happened to try Ctl+Z when I saw the mess it made.
    Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:17 AM
  • Man you folks are something else.

    Let me see just how of my network users would even care about this.

    City employees...not a single one...they use Muni software and office, they open any files via the "OPEN" option in word / excel..so on.

    Dental / Doctors office..not a single one..they are in the practice management programs or using office.

    Lawfirms...NOT ONE.. they all can use wordperfect, could find C:\ if you begged them.

    Web Dev folks.. 2 out of 10, if they can not find what they want via Dreamweaver / CoffeeCup / Adobe they for help.

    AMCO employees...No ...They are in AMCO win and using adobe.

    Car dealers...No not a single employee would need this as the use I.E., office and one of two programs to manager the dealerships.

    90 % of my family would never notice (and I have high tech family..MIT, Ga. tech., Stanford,and so on).

    Most "home users" can not even find the photos from the cam unless they are in My pictures and have multiple windows open would just confuse them.

    So the ROI on "fixing" this issue is on the low end.

    As for me it does not bother me as I use three monitors and I WANT everything to open on the middle screen, so I can put it where I want it.

    Just my take on this, I do have many dislikes about the "new" look, I was happy with 2000 pro look of the GUI...I see no real reason for the Vista / 7 fluff.

    Computers are source of income for me, if I wanted fluff I would be a MAC user.


    Sunday, January 03, 2010 12:13 PM
  • Bubba, people who are really productive with their computers often use several Explorer windows, and often set things up so that things are where they expect, so they can jump right into doing their work without hunting around.

    You and your family may not be doing much with your computers, but I and every high tech user I know prefer to be doing useful work, not wasting time pushing windows around.  

    The non-technical business folks you mentioned do not for the most part rely on their computers as general purpose computing machines, but rather as a vehicle to provide a specialized tool to support their work.  Just because their particular use of that tool doesn't involve moving files around doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be able to do so adeptly for those who DO need it.

    Someone who thinks like you and who lives up north might say, "Cars don't need air conditioners; they're only useful for a minority of people a minority of the time."

    And as for your "Web Dev folks", you don't give them enough credit.  I do some web development myself, and the ability to manage sets of files is key.  If the system facilitated that more directly they'd make fewer mistakes and get their work done more quickly.

    All of these folks might indeed use Explorer more and get more done with their computers if Explorer better facilitated their use.  And your thinking is mired in the past.   Every set of folks you mentioned is hiring new people all the time.  Those new folks are going to be more computer literate than the "old" users, and expect more from their OS.

    Finally, what makes you think that the folks responding to this thread have less credibility than your network of users?  I think by the fact that the thread has gathered hundreds of responses speaks for itself.

    -Noel
    Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:53 PM
  • I can confirmn that the free utility found here http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html works brilliantly under Windows 7 64bit.  This thread has delivered!
    • Proposed as answer by Noel Carboni Monday, January 04, 2010 8:38 PM
    Monday, January 04, 2010 11:42 AM
  • Thanks, Tony.  I just tried that utility as well.

    At first I didn't like that the windows would open in one place, then pop to another, but after the position is known to ShellFolderFix just setting the windows to open Minimized will fix that.

    Kudos once again to "tweaker" over on SevenForums!

    -Noel
    Monday, January 04, 2010 5:21 PM
  • Yeah Noel, you can also set the 'When navigating to a new location' option to 'Use Window As is' so that the window doesn't jump about when you move between fodlers.  Mighty cool options.
    Monday, January 04, 2010 6:51 PM
  • Yeah, I already did that.  Great stuff!

    -Noel
    Monday, January 04, 2010 8:38 PM
  • I want to thank everyone who has thrashed this question from all angles.

    A couple of years ago I was tasked with trying Windows Vista as a replacement for XP (we're a small business with only 10 computers).  After futzing around with it a few weeks I reported back on the issues I was having and we decided to hold off.  Over time, as news came out of the problems people were having with Vista I looked more and more like a genius (in the eyes of top management).  Consequently, with the release of Windows 7, once again I was tasked with the job of evaluating whether upgrading to the new operating system is something we want to do.  FWIW, this time last year we also postponed buying new computers becasue of how worried we were about the economy.  However this time around we've decided to move forward with new hardware and thus, are in the process of buying new computers, e.g. it's the right time to make this software decision as well.  Added to it, this time I've also tasked with evaluating whether Office 2007 is a good fit for us (as a replacement for Office 2000).

    Sadly, I have been disappointed with Office 2007.  In particular, it's because the entire user interface has been changed.  In short, everyone finds the new interface clunky and wasteful of space.  By everyone I mean the office assistants, the senior partner's secretary (a very influential person), myself, and others.  The consistent comment is 'wasteful' of screen real estate.  E.g. because it compresses the useable vertical space within a document.  This is a susrprisingly sensitive area of concern with everyone because it results in less viewable edit space as you wrok - particularly with the word processor.  Moreover, since there is no "classic view" equivalent for the office suite, a change would materially disrupt our productivity.

    Regarding the operating system (my original task), I found fundamental changes in how the user interacts, which impede use of the program by experienced users.  While these changes may be nice for my mother (who still doesn't want a computer), the fact is 100% of users in our office are experienced.  Consequently, these changes present a needless disruption in our workflow.  For example, there are now 'libraries' for organizing things, which we find awkward as we already have a structure in place to manage files and back ups.  Moreover, there is the issue of needing to resort to a 3rd party tool to keep from having to waste time resizing and repositioning our windows each time they open (the principal issue of this very thread).

    Of course, we're small potatoes in the grand scheme of things and thus, not worth Microsoft's attention.  We understand this and thus, are not upset.  Fortunately, since we have the physical CDs and accompanying licenses for Office 2000 and XP Professional (we fired a dedicated IT person last year who had the gall to have these in his home - we were fortunate to recover them) we will save a fair bit of money by continuing to use existing software.  This makes it a very easy decision, especially as my justification for staying the course with existing software is butressed by saving money (plus the fact we won't need expensive retraining since we already know how to use it).  Interestingly, a friend mentioned a product called Open Office as a possible replacement for Office 2000, which is actually free!

    Consequently, over the last few weeks it's become obvious disrupting the office to upgrade software isn't a good business decison for us because these changes will result is either forcing us to bring in trainers, which is an expense not built into our budget for 2010, or consuming productive work hours learning the new way of getting our work done (e.g. on our own time).  Frankly, this last is an bad idea, especially right now because we're working with three fewer employees than this time last year!  Hence, as I draft my report, which boils down to recommending we not upgrade either operating system or office suite at this time I want to thank everyone who shed light on the issue of this particular post.  It was the deal breaker because we now shut down computers each day to save electricity expenses.

    In closing, we'll (me again) re-examine this for either 2011 or 2012, thanks again everyone.  This forum is an invaluable resource.
    Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:16 PM
  • Hi Jbeech,

    I understand where you are coming from.  while I am not our office's "computer guy", I am one of the more computer savy users at our office.  For similar reasons you stated, we were using windows 2000 until just 2 years ago!  Now we are finally on XP, and probably won't upgrade to windows 7 any time soon.

    We did however, upgrade to office 2007.  I HATED it.  I really disliked the new interface and thought the exact same things you did.  But after using it for a while, I can honestly say that it is is better than the old way.  The menu "tabs" are just visual representations of the pull down menus in previous versions.  if you double click on them, the menu bar will collapse, and give back your screen real estate.  It will only show up when you click on it.  Now that we use larger 19" lcd monitors with a higher resolution of 1280x1024 (everyone was stuck on 1024x768 on the old ones), I don't need to hide the menus anymore.

    and the right click pop up menu really does save time.  Getting used to the new interface is difficult for people who have been using the old program for years and years and years (like me), but once you get used to it, I think it is much better.
    Saturday, January 16, 2010 5:55 PM
  • Kudos to Mikey631, this fixed my issue completely (thus far, i'm only a day into using it).
    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html

    yeah, it's amazing this is what i wasted time on with a modern OS (that i actually paid money for!) but with that link, it went back to being my favorite OS. Just to be clear, all i needed were windows that recalled their size and position, free, and unobtrusive. so far i'm giddy about it.

    oh sorry, i'm on window 7 pro 64bit
    Tuesday, February 02, 2010 4:43 PM
  • I fully understand the difficulties with people adapting to a new look and feel, jbeech.  Resistance to change can be formidable.

    However, while being conservative can be good in the short term, over time I've come to the conclusion that being overly conservative for too long is tremendously counterproductive.  Contrary to what a lot of "Microsoft haters" might say, there ARE definite advantages to the more modern systems.  For one thing, XP *is* relatively unstable by comparison to Windows 7.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  I still work with all the versions on a daily basis.

    Now, because you've chosen to avoid Vista, the jump for your people is even larger between XP and Windows 7.   Taken to the extreme, will you be waiting for Windows 8 then?

    You and your office workers just want it to work.  I'm here to tell you that with the updates and a few tweaks such as that ShellFolderFix, it DOES work.  It will require a bit of lost time due to people having to discover how to do the same things they did before, but if they're not completely brain-dead they WILL get over it.  And in a month or two they'll be MORE productive than they are now.

    The best thing you could do as the point man is to get as familiar with Windows 7 actually using it in everyday operations, then give regular "let me show you how" meetings with a video projector and just SHOW your people how to do things.  They might even enjoy the change as long as it doesn't threaten to bowl them over without anyone to support them.

    You don't need to bring trainers in.  It's still Windows.  Maintain a positive, supportive atmosphere and your people will gladly move up to the modern technology. Chances are some of them already have at home, and they would probably be happy to have the same environment in both places.

    -Noel
    Wednesday, February 03, 2010 6:27 PM
  • Indeed, I have continued to fiddle with the new OS on a computer at home.  However, I gave up and removed Office 2007.  Moreover, I have already recommended against upgrading our existing software at work - both W7 Pro and Office 2007.  Frankly, I have no regrets, or doubts and continue to feel this was unquestionably the right thing for us to do.

    Vis-a-vis being up to speed in a month or two, with Office 2007 . . . why?  We're up to speed already with Office 2003.  Frankly, Office 2007 brings nothing to the table worht the pain.  For example, does it have a better thesaurus?  Does it do language translations?  Does it do search using the web?  No, no, and no.  Frankly, other than messing with our using what we already know how to use, which is the automobile equivalent of placing a new car's accelerator and brake pedals on the door and the steering wheel on the floor because it's possible, I voted with my company's wallet to not particpate ion this particular upgarde cycle.

    Moreover, if you reflect on how diligently they worked to earn our business in the first place, the fact they are actively taking actions to drive us away is ludicrous.  We've been loyal customers but now they've show us the door.  Nay, they've actually opened the door to our considering other solutions, e.g. Open Office, which we otherwise would never have done.  No offense, but how dumb is this?

    With respect to the new OS; XP is perfectly adequate - except for handling more RAM.  Want to know of the latest W7 frustration?  Open Explorer and strangely, the files don't have extensions.  Instead they tell me what the application file types are.  Sadly, we knew the code, and it wasn't hard to learn yet in one fell swoop, by insisting on interpreting what I already know, e.g. what .com, .exe, .png, etc. means, the newer system is slower for me to interact with.  Does anybody think it's fastrer to interpret the word 'sum' instead of the + symbol, which means the same thing?  Both mean the same yet one is noticeably faster to use.  What were they thinking?  Heavy sigh.

    Consequently, and no offense to anyone, but this seems to merely be a case of doing something different just to do it differently.  I mean, how can you possibly justify having menus open all the time as the basis for declaring it's better with the rational being we have larger monitors?  My God, what were they (and you, for that matter) thinking?

    In closing I am reminded of the advice my grandfather gave regarding what to do when I find myself in a hole.  Simply put, stop digging!  Frankly, I just wish they would do what Coke did, e.g. beat a hasty retreat - like with 'New Coke" - at the market's rejection.  No shame in making a mistake.  The shame comes in bulling ahead despite what your customers say. 

    Finally, I don't hate, much less dislike Microsoft.  If anything, it's the contrary because I admire the business and until now its products.  What I hate is seeing boobs breaking a nearly perfect toy.   If only Mr. Gates would again take charge because it's being ruined by those devoid of vision.

    My 2 cents,
     
    Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:35 PM
  • I have to agree fully with you on Office 2007.  I didn't see any merits, and I've stayed with 2003 myself.   But I'm not really talking about Office here, I'm talking about Windows 7 itself.
    With respect to the new OS; XP is perfectly adequate - except for handling more RAM.  Want to know of the latest W7 frustration?  Open Explorer and strangely, the files don't have extensions.  Instead they tell me what the application file types are.  Sadly, we knew the code, and it wasn't hard to learn yet in one fell swoop, by insisting on interpreting what I already know, e.g. what .com, .exe, .png, etc. means, the newer system is slower for me to interact with.  Does anybody think it's fastrer to interpret the word 'sum' instead of the + symbol, which means the same thing?  Both mean the same yet one is noticeably faster to use.  What were they thinking?  Heavy sigh.

    You do know that:

    A) XP also hid file extensions by default when installed right out of the box.
    B) Windows 7, as with Vista, allows you to configure whether those file extensions are visible.

    I'm developing a guide on how to configure Windows 7 "To Work".  One of the line items in there is to uncheck the [ ] Hide File Extensions for Known File Types box.  Takes 10 seconds to configure, and is just the kind of thing the person being tasked with determining whether to upgrade a company to Windows 7 should know when setting up the media and policies to be rolled-out to the company.

    As the one who provided the workstation setup for an entire engineering division with XP, then Vista, and now Windows 7, I can tell you that it IS possible to configure Windows 7 "to work" and work well indeed.  When set up well you and your people can still get all the advantages of a familiar interface (e.g., icons on the desktop, no pinned BS on the Taskbar) AND the advantages of the new system (e.g., quickly search the Start menu for something, better disk access, more reliable operation).  It's not a trivial setup but it wasn't with XP either; if you think it was you've forgotten what we all went through when XP was released.

    Sticking in the mud isn't going to work forever.  Sooner or later you will actually not be able to buy a new computer with XP installed.  When the old ones burn out what are you going to do then?  Buy used ones on eBay?

    -Noel
    Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:32 PM
  • Noel,

    So where do we check that box anyway?  I'd really like to have extensions.  Also, is there any way to get rid of that stupid library organization concept?  Unfortunately, it's first on the list and navigating to our network drive is comprised of extra clicks, which stinks!  Also, with respect to my abilities to be the guy judging whether we move on to new software, while I've been computing since an H-DOS and H-Basic equipped Heathkit H-64 computer, which I soldered together from components ca. 1990, the real fact is this just makes me duffer in chief at my place of business, not a real computer expert.  However, while I am not a software guru by any stretch, I am the goto guy at work and the guy making the decisions at my office.  Microsoft ignores my ilk at it's peril. 

    As for what to do when computers burn out; eBay . . . are you kidding? We have the OS disks, which is why we reformatted a Dell with Vista a few months back in order to install XP SP3.  Same thing with the newest computer a few weeks ago, which came with W7 Home, it too now has XP SP3 - this is no biggie.

    Finally, when is your guide coming out?   Too bad Microsoft doesn't take existing users into account and include such a handy guide with the OS (for conservative folks, e.g those like me who don't readilly embrace change merely for change's sake).  Had such consideration been present we would have updated all the computers at work - not!  Frankly, Office 2007 killed any chance of that happening because the OS is not a driving force for us, it's the applications.  With respect to Office 2007, I can think of several improvements, which would have compelled us to upgrade.  That funky ribbon bar menu certainly wasn't an improvement in my view, and worse, led to us to eyeball other choices to replace Office 2003 (plus a couple of machines, which are equipped with licenses for Office 2000), e.g. Open Office, which we (me) are actually evaluating.

    In closing, thank you for your intelligent discourse Noel, I appreciate your taking time to share your wisdom.
    Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:52 AM
  • While this is a great area for feedback to the product team, this is not an 'issue' or 'bug'.  In short:  Microsoft wants it to be this way.  They specifically said so in their own documentation (see image below).

    I would encourage you to submit your feedback here:  http://mymfe.microsoft.com/Windows%207/Feedback.aspx?formID=195

    Also, if you feel you are up it, I encourage you to participate in the next beta of Windows 8.



    If this was helpful, please vote by clicking the green triangle. If it solves the issue, click Propose as Answer. Thanks!
    Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:03 AM
  • I've worked out virtually all the things you've mentioned, jbeech.

    You should know that a year ago when I first saw Windows 7 I shared your thinking; that Windows 7 might just be too dumbed-down and not be serious enough to be ready for "prime time".  But I set out (through the beta and now with the release) to discover how best to set it up to be efficient, reliable, and provide some of that familiar "to work" experience.  I have been successful.  The guide will be coming out in a month or so.

    To answer your specific questions:

    To see file extensions:

    1.  Open an Explorer window.
    2.  Make the menu bar visible by choosing Organize -> Layout -> Menu Bar.
    3.  Choose Tools -> Folder options...
    4.  Click the View tab.
    5.  Uncheck [ ] Hide extensions for known file types.
    6.  Review the other settings.  There are about 5 others I usually change.


    To eliminate Libraries (and Favorites and Homegroup too!) from the Explorer Navigation pane:

    This involves some registry hacking, which I prefer to avoid, but for a result this good it's worth it.  Check this thread:

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproui/thread/ac419c2b-4a38-44f0-b1f0-b0ed9fdcfdeb


    Regarding installing XP on newer machines, sooner or later the hardware's gonna drift far enough from the 1995 idea of a PC that it just won't work.  But it's entirely possible that sooner than that software will be developed that your company needs but which just doesn't support XP.  That said, I make sure my own software I develop is compatible with XP and above and have no plans to change that.

    I would love to hear your opinion of Open Office.

    -Noel
    Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:12 AM

  • You don't always have to hack the registry. Windows 7 has some built-in folder shortcuts that let you open various logical folders, like Computer, and Network. Not sure if they open in Explore mode, but I'm sure that would be just another tweak.

    See here: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/window-on-windows/?p=1976&tag=nl.e132


    Something to watch when revealing file extensions - it can subtly change they way lists of files are sorted when you sort by file name, because the "." is included.
    See this discussion: http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1257460138
    Thursday, February 04, 2010 7:32 AM
  • I echo what bucks614 says.  We are looking forward for a fix, since this is a real frustration.
    Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:10 PM
  • Noel,

    Is there any way to private message using this forum?  I'd like speak or email with you but am less than willing to post my contact info here.

    Anyway, for whatever reason, my previous post was truncated somehow.  The below should have been part of the first paragraph after, Microsoft ignores my ilk at it's peril . . .

    Nevertheless, while no expert I have lived though the PC revolution pretty much from its begining.  Moreover, I remember exactly 'why' Windows came into being.  In short, it unified the command structure for software.  Before that it was the Wild West as far as look and feel went.  E.g. the interface was wide open and the lack of standards inhibited learning and adoption of the software to specialists.  Window's Odffice suite opened it to generalists.  In short, the elimination of interface implementations as dreamed up by the various vendors, e.g the Lotus 1,2,3  /commands, or dBase's . prompts, or WordStar's diamond were unified.

    We made a deal - me with Bill Gates - via the commonality of pull down menus, which began with File, the Edit, etc. The deal was he made a common user inteface and I would purchase Windows compatible software.  Frankly, this was a knock out blow to the competiton's software.  Why?  Simply because using his software made it accesible.  Suddenly learning to use one product meant I was a loooong way down the road to being able to use another application, e.g. the entire Office suite.  Recall, nobody interacts with the OS as a raison d'etre.  The OS's purpose is to run the applications (plus, of course, file handling and printing).  Unfortunately, by changing the user interface so radically, Microsoft in efffect breaks the compact I made with Mr. Gates many years ago.  It's the Wild West all over again and I am so very disappoint as to be beyond words.

    Whomever dreamed up the idea of messing with the interface should be ashamed!  Better still . . . they should be marched out and shot at dawn.
    • Proposed as answer by johnwerneken1 Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:38 PM
    Friday, February 05, 2010 4:55 AM
  • Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but in principal I agree with you.  :)  Change just to make something seem "new" is just plain silly.  Fashion has no business on the desktop.

    But there is method to at least SOME of the madness.  "Pleasing to use" is, in fact, a worthwhile goal, and makes doing all that work we know needs doing a little more bearable.

    Now, I'm finding at least some of the "eye candy" parts actually kind of pleasing to use.  I wouldn't have thought I'd care much about translucent window borders, but with a good video card that works it smoothly, Aero does grow on you.  Live previews (Taskbar hover and Alt-Tab, for example) are really handy!

    On the flip side, whoever authorized the "Office 2007-like" changes to WordPad, especially eliminating the option to have menus entirely AND putting some functions by default right on the title bar (!!)...  Grrr.

    The good news is that, Wordpad notwithstanding, virtually everything still can, with suitable configuration, have those menus that you and I like.

    And though I was a big fan of the Classic start menu, having gotten used to the Windows 7 variety, and with some tweaks (of course), I have come to like it.  I logged into my old Vista system (which has now become a file server) yesterday and found the old classic menu actually felt antiquated.  I've only been using Windows 7 on my main workstation full-time for 3 weeks now.  Before that the Vista system was my center of operations, with my other systems being secondary.  Moral:  It really doesn't take long to get used to Windows 7, once the "To Work" options are tweaked.

    I got your eMail.

    -Noel
    Friday, February 05, 2010 11:54 AM
  • While this is a great area for feedback to the product team, this is not an 'issue' or 'bug'.  In short:  Microsoft wants it to be this way.  They specifically said so in their own documentation (see image below).

    I would encourage you to submit your feedback here:  http://mymfe.microsoft.com/Windows%207/Feedback.aspx?formID=195

    Also, if you feel you are up it, I encourage you to participate in the next beta of Windows 8.



    If this was helpful, please vote by clicking the green triangle. If it solves the issue, click Propose as Answer. Thanks!

    The above Help entry "Why doesn't Windows remember...." was removed in my copy of Windows 7 (Ultimate 64 bit).  So obviously MS is actively working on making this issue less visible. 

    And, I don't believe there is any Microsoft philosophy of user interface behind it.  They do want it this way because they apparenty never could make it work reliably.  There was always a problem with remembering windows properties, and although it did work most of the time in previous versions, it had a tendency to get screwed up periodically.  It is amazing how much old junk from Windows 3 remains in Windows 7 and how superficial the changes are.  After a gazillion patches Windows still can not tell whether a mouse click came from the local device or from the Internet.
    Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:18 AM
  • The above Help entry "Why doesn't Windows remember...." was removed in my copy of Windows 7 (Ultimate 64 bit).  So obviously MS is actively working on making this issue less visible. 
    That's an interesting comment.  Did you just get a new installation DVD?

    My Windows 7 x64 Ultimate system is fully up to date with Microsoft Updates and the above-mentioned entry is still there.

    Are you sure you searched for it thoroughly?

    -Noel
    Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:32 PM
  • The above Help entry "Why doesn't Windows remember...." was removed in my copy of Windows 7 (Ultimate 64 bit).  So obviously MS is actively working on making this issue less visible. 
    That's an interesting comment.  Did you just get a new installation DVD?

    My Windows 7 x64 Ultimate system is fully up to date with Microsoft Updates and the above-mentioned entry is still there.

    Are you sure you searched for it thoroughly?

    -Noel


    Then maybe my copy is older. Bought in December as OEM DVD in a retail store. But now it is updated and still doesn't show this answer.

    -
    Monday, February 08, 2010 4:39 AM
  • Ah, I see the difference.  Note the bottom-right corner of the window.  You're looking in your local help, while I'm getting a feed from Microsoft's web site.



    This would imply the question has actually been added since the help files were generated for the installation discs.

    -Noel

    • Proposed as answer by JustEnough Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:28 PM
    Monday, February 08, 2010 4:54 AM
  • I found the answer!!!!!   It's dumb, but it works. 

    1. Resize the window to what you want it to be. 
    2. Close it.  Don't save it or send it (if it's an Outlook message), just close it.
    3. When you open that type of window again, it should open to what you resized it to.


    Very Important Notes:
    1. Make sure you have only one type of this window open (ex: only 1 Word window including Outlook messages because Word and Outlook Messages will be the same size, only 1 Explorer window open, only 1 browser window open, etc.).

    2. Make sure when you resized the window that you didn't use the Windows 7 automatic top to bottom resize option.  Make sure you manually adjusted the window size.

    3. By using “the Windows 7 automatic top to bottom resize option” I’m referring to the option of resizing your window by dragging the cursor below the taskbar.  When you do this Windows 7 will make the vertical view of your window extend from the top of your screen to the bottom of your screen.

    4.  If you save it at all or send it (using Outlook) Windows 7 will not remember the size!!!

     

    • Proposed as answer by JustEnough Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:47 PM
    Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:46 PM
  • You must be a complete koolaid drinker.  All previous versions of windows - even 3.1 remembered the window position and size.  Please don't add to the confusion by talking about something which you obviously do not understand.

    Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:50 PM
  • You must be a complete koolaid drinker.  All previous versions of windows - even 3.1 remembered the window position and size.  Please don't add to the confusion by talking about something which you obviously do not understand.

    Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:50 PM
  • Not really a solution. We want different file/folder windows to remember their position. Maybe you should watch the video to see exactly what this issue is really about.
    Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:08 AM
  • I'm surprised that we haven't had a more "official" response to this issue.
    Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:09 AM
  • We are probably not going to hear from Microsoft until such time as big set of changes shows up in a service pack, or maybe Windows 7's successor.  I can't imagine they think Explorer is finished and sufficient the way it is.

    If you didn't notice it above, there's now a decent freeware workaround available, by the way.  It's called ShellFolderFix by a guy named Georg Fischer.  It's an additional application that starts when you start Windows and sits in the System Tray.  It watches the Explorer windows you open and manipulate and repositions and resizes them according to where you last had them.  It has a lot of options and seems to work very well...  I've been using it for months without any problems whatsoever.

    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html

    -Noel

    Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:26 AM
  • From what I understand, if/when Microsoft fixes this issue, it will be released within a service pack, not an individual update, so be prepared to wait a while.  Until then, the program I posted above works perfectly, and is free to download.  It's located at the bottom of the first post here:

     

    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html

     

     

    Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:29 AM
  • I struggled with this problem for a while until I discovered that if you use the little area at the bottom right of the window (with the six dots arranged in a triangle) to re-size the window, the same size and position will appear again after closing and opening IE. I think it may be required to have only one single window open when doing this.
    • Proposed as answer by Horst Rohde Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:55 PM
    Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:41 PM
  • From what I understand, if/when Microsoft fixes this issue, it will be released within a service pack, not an individual update, so be prepared to wait a while.  Until then, the program I posted above works perfectly, and is free to download.  It's located at the bottom of the first post here:

     

    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html

     

     


    Thanks, Mikey.  That did the trick for me.
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:43 PM
  • Still mad as ____ that I have to run one or two applications and the overhead involved just to get SOME of the XP functionality back!

     

    ARRGH

    Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:53 PM
  • I am happy to inform you that the much-missed feature of restoring the saved window positions at logon is now fixed. You can get a hotfix that resolves this issue by following this link: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/979560

    Hope this helps,

     Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:33 AM
    Answerer
  • I am happy to inform you that the much-missed feature of restoring the saved window positions at logon is now fixed. You can get a hotfix that resolves this issue by following this link: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/979560

    Hope this helps,

     Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    FAIL

    If you logout of windows with 4 folders open in different sizes and locations, then log back in, it will restore them.  But if you close those folders - as one will periodically do when use of the contents is complete - only the last position and size is remembered.  This is the root of the original problem, and has not been fixed by this service HOT FIX.

     

    I can provide screenshots or video to document this massive FAIL.

    John

    • Proposed as answer by bigjohn-s Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:24 AM
    Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:21 AM
  • Are you saying that if you close folder windows, then the system doesn't relaunch those windows at the next logon? If so, that is expected, as only folder windows that were open at the time of logging out will be persisted and relaunched at the next logon. Or did I misunderstand your question?

    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:00 AM
    Answerer
  • I find it unbelievable that the tech people label this hotfix as a fix -IT IS NOT.  The feature of windows size and positioning is NOT available in Win 7 without a third party utility running which in turn adds to the overhead of the operating system and slows down the system.  Same goes for the Classic Start menu - the XP version was compact, easy to modify, fast, easily organized. 

    The person who made the decision to leave these out or the person who approved the release of Win 7 without it - just flat out should be fired today.  Win 7 seems to be a very robust stable platform - but without these two Basic features is atrocious to work in.

    We've tried the 3rd party fixes and they are a pain to work with and take up more resources.

    Our company is in the midst of legal disputes with our hardware / software vendor to return 100+ machines with Win 7 or to obtain XP Downgrades and Drivers.

    Bottom Line - the two most discussed problems on the internet are still NOT fixed.

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:51 PM
  • No alexander the point of the original question was - Windows does NOT remember the folder position and size. It ONLY remembers the position and size of the LAST window closed.

    Not always do we work with all our folders open.  In XP if I open my "CD/DVD tools" folder - with shortcuts to those applications, it always opens the exact same size, with the icons in the same order, in the same place on my desktop.

     

    This is the functionality we have been crying out for in this thread. While the code fix does seem to restore a BIT of that function, it's not a full fix - because users CLOSE folders to unclutter, but want them back when necessary, with the layout, sorting, tabs, icon/or details layouts that they chose for that content - not just the layout and size and place of the last folder closed.

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:56 PM
  • Ok so there are two totally separate issues:

    1) The "Restore previous folder windows at logon" option issue: Originally, this option would only remember the size, but not the position of those windows that were opened at logoff. When the user would log back on, this option causes explorer to re-launch the persisted windows. Since the position did not use to be persisted in Windows 7 (it was persisted in previous versions of the OS), the windows would be launch in a cascaded fashion, starting at the location of the last window that happened to be closed. The hotfix that I mentioned above fixes this issue and restores back the full functionality of this option. If you're seeing problems with this scenario I'd like to hear more about it.

    2) There is a separate issue regarding the way that Windows 7 decides to size and position newly launched folders. In Windows 7, the way the shell works is that it saves the window size and position not on a per folder basis as in other releases, but instead this setting is persisted globally. So if you open folder A, size it the way you like it, when you close it its size and position will be saved to this central location. When you open folder B, its initial size and location will be obtained from this central location. The hotfix I mentioned above does not address this issue. I have passed on this feedback to the team responsible for making these design decisions (User Experience Research).

    Hope this helps clarify things.

    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:11 PM
    Answerer
  • Ok so there are two totally separate issues:

    1) The "Restore previous folder windows at logon" option issue: Originally, this option would only remember the size, but not the position of those windows that were opened at logoff. When the user would log back on, this option causes explorer to re-launch the persisted windows. Since the position did not use to be persisted in Windows 7 (it was persisted in previous versions of the OS), the windows would be launch in a cascaded fashion, starting at the location of the last window that happened to be closed. The hotfix that I mentioned above fixes this issue and restores back the full functionality of this option. If you're seeing problems with this scenario I'd like to hear more about it.

    2) There is a separate issue regarding the way that Windows 7 decides to size and position newly launched folders. In Windows 7, the way the shell works is that it saves the window size and position not on a per folder basis as in other releases, but instead this setting is persisted globally. So if you open folder A, size it the way you like it, when you close it its size and position will be saved to this central location. When you open folder B, its initial size and location will be obtained from this central location. The hotfix I mentioned above does not address this issue. I have passed on this feedback to the team responsible for making these design decisions (User Experience Research).

    Hope this helps clarify things.

    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Lead
    Windows Sustained Engineering - User Experience Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    It seems that the main concern, expressed, revolves around issue two.
    Thursday, August 26, 2010 8:01 PM
  • Alexander, do you realize how incredible it is to get even an acknowledgement out of MSFT on this issue?

    Please let the Explorer developers know that we will all send them flowers if they just make Explorer work as well as it once did.  As for what we'll send them if they actually make it BETTER....  Wow.

    -Noel

    Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:09 PM
  • I have a work-around for displaying your Windows Explorer files and folders in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 and making them look like they did in Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.  Work on a Windows XP desktop or a Windows Server 2003 and map the drives on the Windows 7 and Server 2008 boxes.

     

    :-)

     

     

    • Edited by MikeC-99 Friday, August 27, 2010 11:34 PM typo
    • Proposed as answer by MikeC-99 Friday, August 27, 2010 11:34 PM
    • Unproposed as answer by Alexander SklarEditor Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:32 AM
    Friday, August 27, 2010 11:33 PM
  • I can't help thinking that this change from XP was by design, to reduce code and processing overhead, and thus improve speed of opening of Explorer. Whether this is justifed given the speed of even the lowest ranked PC these days, I'm not sure. Where it may have an effect is with older PCs being upgraded from XP or Vista.

    I have also noticed that some features of XP that we all took for granted, such as Outlook Express, have gone, and it is necessary to download software to take its place.

    So having to use third party software to regain feature of XP that we enjoyed in the past may be the way of the future.

    The hotfix does provide a workaround for some cases, but is by no means a real fix.

    Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:48 AM
  • I struggled with this problem for a while until I discovered that if you use the little area at the bottom right of the window (with the six dots arranged in a triangle) to re-size the window, the same size and position will appear again after closing and opening IE. I think it may be required to have only one single window open when doing this.
    This solved all of the above-mentioned problems for me, and I couldn't be happier, after "putting up" with the loss of my window size/positions ever since I installed Win 7 last October.  Yippee!!  To clarify, I seldom use Explorer (TC fan here), but all of my app windows, including Outlook and Excel for instance, opened up pinned in the right place, but seldom to the right size.  The hint from Naaxos seems to work, at least for me.
    Monday, October 11, 2010 12:02 AM
  • bought win 7 pro online as a download

    tried windowmanager from desksoft.com

    perfect!

    thank you minnesotadon!

    william

    Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:19 PM
  • I have not had problem with applications retaining position ONLY the folder size and location. This really sucks!
    Friday, January 21, 2011 12:04 PM
  • Agreed. The issue as originally stated is NOT fixed.
    • Proposed as answer by 3dZiggy Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:12 PM
    Friday, February 04, 2011 6:05 PM
  • It's not an issue that will be fixed, it was intentionally designed this way (although I sure wish I knew what the heck those engineers were thinking).

    Since it's operating according to the specification, it will not be changed while Windows in in maintenance cycle.  The earliest we'll see this functionality change will be Windows 8.

     

     


    If this was helpful, please vote by clicking the green triangle. If it solves the issue, click Propose as Answer. Thanks!
    Friday, February 04, 2011 6:50 PM
  • I sincerely hope you're wrong there...

    it's a productivity killer, and a frustrating pain in the arse... that may cause me to stay on XP on my primary machines until I find a version that IS fixed...which is fine with me, because it works.

    Friday, February 04, 2011 8:43 PM
  • Sorry but it's true.  The help file even confirms that it was designed that way.  And after a version of Windows is released, the code is not allowed to change unless it is for security or bugs.  Since it's "as designed", this won't change until the new codebase is out.

    Take a look at this screenshot for confirmation.  Sad but true.  I'm not sure why they'd make such a change.

    Perhaps we'll receive an answer, similar to the explanation of why there is no more File Types dialog in Windows 7.

     


    If this was helpful, please vote by clicking the green triangle. If it solves the issue, click Propose as Answer. Thanks!
    Friday, February 04, 2011 8:48 PM
  • As listed earlier in the thread, try ShellFolderFix.  I've been using it for over a year, and it really works in solving this Windows 7 deficiency.  I've not seen any instability or negative side effects.

    Install ShellFolderFix Explorer Window positioning freeware by Georg

    Explorer in Windows  7 is incapable of remembering size or position of anything but the very last window closed.  This little freeware app fixes that, as well as allowing you to see the path in the title of your Explorer windows:

    http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/40916-shellfolderfix-manage-folder-window-positions-size.html

     

    -Noel

     

    Friday, February 04, 2011 10:25 PM
  • This is related to issue# 2.  I was having this problem plus whenever windows waking up from sleep mode would stack all open application windows in top left corner resizing them to a smaller common size.

    After struggling a lot, accidentally find a fix in a setting hidden in Control panel->Ease of Access->Ease of Access Center->Make the computer easier to use.

    I turned on "Turn off all unnecessary animations (when possible)"

    So far seemed to have worked for me.

    Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:45 PM
  • ShellfolderFix.exe worked for me too. It is now remembering the locations of my folders when I open them. You can also save workspace so say you have four apps/folders open save them as a work space. you can them bot your pc and restore all 4 with one click.
    Clint
    Wednesday, May 18, 2011 8:36 PM
  • Regarding issue 2 above...is there a way to change this behavior? All folders are not created equal, and hence the way I prefer to view each folder is different. Windows XP didn't tie my view of Folder B to Folder A that I just closed (hypothetically speaking).

     

    Thanks,

    Rebecca 

    Wednesday, June 08, 2011 1:50 PM
  • Hey Rebecca, 

    Good news is that yes, individual folders will remember their view setting.  Say you have these folders set up the following way:

    • C:\Users\Rebecca\Documents\Botany Project - extra large icons
    • C:\Users\Rebecca\Documents\Novel Drafts - details view (with columns for modified date, file size, etc)

    The set view on one folder will not affect the other in any way, and will be preserved every time you open the folder.  That is, the Botany Project folder will always show extra large icons.

    But there is a caveat.  Libraries are not folders.  Libraries, actually, are "instant search results" (in fact, a Library is just a query file saved as a .library-ms file type. They open with Explorer in the same way that Zip files do. Like zip files, libraries may visually appear to be the same as a folder, but they're not).  A library layout is stored in the query file, and so any view you set in a library will apply to your entire session of browsing that library.  That is, if you open you Documents library, set it to large icons, it will show Large Icons for every folder you open from that library.

    Instead, if you click your name at the top of the Start menu, then browse to the Documents folder directly, you'll see that the individualized views are still there and utilized.

    I hope this makes at least a little sense :)


    Shawn Keene
    Wednesday, June 08, 2011 2:12 PM
  • Regarding issue 2 above...is there a way to change this behavior?


    Rebecca, read just a little above your post.

    Download and install the free package ShellFolderFix and you'll get back the folder positioning that you crave.

    -Noel

    • Proposed as answer by rbrown3 Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:23 PM
    Wednesday, June 08, 2011 7:51 PM
  • I quote:
    " I am a software developer in the Windows division and would like to thank you for raising this issue to us through the forums. We definitely hear your frustration on this issue. We actively monitor forum conversations in an effort to receive feedback that helps us continually improve our products, so we have logged this feedback accordingly. 
    I want to assure you that this feedback will be taken seriously and given appropriate consideration. Also, I'd like to point out I'm not following a script :)
    Thank you for your help!

    Regards,
    Alexander Sklar | Software Development Engineer 2
    Windows Sustaining Engineering - Client Platform Development Team
    http://blogs.msdn.com/asklar 
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    "end of quote..

    how silly can they get at microsoft? the same answer that is no answer at all, being marked as the answer by their staff?

    are they really just making us angry? what is the point of ppl like that even being in the discussion?

    I get really overcome by a feeling of impotence, when I read this discussion.. the issue is very clear,.. and MS just refuses to even acknowledge it.

    sending emails to some adress? think that solves it?

    I will read through to the end of the thread, still hoping to find the answer,.. but I have already seen the loudmouth introduction of w8,

    and I doubt very much this will get solved.


    Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:42 AM
  • This is related to issue# 2.  I was having this problem plus whenever windows waking up from sleep mode would stack all open application windows in top left corner resizing them to a smaller common size.

    After struggling a lot, accidentally find a fix in a setting hidden in Control panel->Ease of Access->Ease of Access Center->Make the computer easier to use.

    I turned on "Turn off all unnecessary animations (when possible)"

    So far seemed to have worked for me.

    tried it, it won't work. I will explain the problem once more for the people that haven't understood it yet...

    -have three folders open on different locations and sizes.

    -put a folder where you like it on your screen(s).

    -create a shortcut to this folder by dragging the icon in the address bar on the to the desktop, or any other way you like.

    -do the same for the other two folders.

    -close all three folders.

    -open them from the freshly made shortcuts.

    THIS is where the problem is visible,.. in XP they would open in the location you created the shortcut. In 7 they all open on the size/location of the last one shut.

    Now,... if anyone fails to undertand the difference, I suggest they stop posting here,..

    and If someone at Microsoft or it's allies can come up with a real solution, ( not the use of open source fixes) they are still welcome to post it.

    I am getting fed up with this,.. computers should be useable for experienced people, not just for newbies.

     

    -open


    • Edited by 3dZiggy Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:40 PM clarification
    Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:32 PM
  • You're CLEARLY not going to get a fix from Microsoft, except possibly in Windows 8.0. 

    They've even acknowledged that they know people aren't happy about it.  "Thank you very much for reporting this to us." is functionally equivalent to "We know, but we're not going to do anything about it because unlike you, most people are too stupid to figure out that it's even happening anyway."

    Personally, I suspect the implementation of Explorer after XP was such a mess that they just had to carve functionality out of it entirely in order to be able to continue to support it.  Fixing it was probably beyond them, technically.

    What's wrong with using an add-on application like ShellFolderFix?  I've used it for a year and a half - it just works.  And the price is right.

    -Noel




    Wednesday, June 15, 2011 5:16 PM
  • Vista does remember folders' size+positition settings, independently.  Almost always..

    It's that Almost part that I suspect of being the reason they took out the functionality entirely.

    Vista would occasionally (or after a while) forget.  Even if you made the "BagsMRU" tweak to the registry - it would just take longer to forget.

    I greatly prefer the operation of Windows 7 + ShellFolderFix.  It works every time and does not forget.

    -Noel

    Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:15 AM
  • For those still having this problem with Vista ( I have Vista Basic), the solution that worked for me was this.

    Assuming you already put a check in the box to "Remember each folder's view settings".

    After setting my folder headings, resizing, positioning, etc., I would then

    close the folder from the file menu.  Click FILE then click CLOSE. Closing it this way

    seems to act as a 'save' button.  Do this for each folder you want to make changes to.

    After you close those folders this way the first time, then you can go back to

    closing those folders using the red X if you want; the changes should stick for each

    individual folder you do this to.

     

    Once in a blue moon the default folder settings did return.  Sometimes I think it returns

    when I add a new file to the folder.  But at least it's not happening on a daily basis.

     

    I tried this with Windows 7, but it didn't work.

    Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:24 AM
  • My machine 6.1.7601 win 7 64 Home Premium SP1 and works as said throughout above.

    REFERENCE SUGGESTED DOES NOT EXIST:

     

    Vote As Helpful

    Thanks OldeBill, that pretty much is a final answer if I've ever seen one. This confirms it was an intentional change, not a bug.

    If anyone wants to see this quote with their own eyes, here's how:
    1 - Press Windows Key + F1 to open the Windows Help and Support.
    2 - Search for the phrase 'windows 7 remembers one size' and then click the only search result.
    3 - Click the FAQ item, 'Why doesn't Windows remember a folder window's size and location on the desktop'

     

     

    Wednesday, August 03, 2011 7:04 PM
  • THANK YOU you answered TWO out of THREE:

    1. WHERE is the HELP citation? Answer: it's in on-line now and only in on-line help

    2. Did it change in Win7 and if so, intentionally? Answer: YES and YES

    3. UNANSWERED: How can I change it back????????????

    Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:42 PM
  • YEP. btw does the last proposed solution above fix issue two? haven't tried it yet.
    Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:49 PM
  • OK I Got three things out of this thread:

    1. a good definition of the issues

    2. MS admits that one issue is NOT fixed to the satisfaction of us in this thread, and they are thinking about it

    3. ONE suggestion that definitely fixes SOME issue, just unclear if fixing the one MS last above agred is unfixed. Guess I have to gamble and try it. No one has clearly said whether that last alleged solution works for the ONE part of the problem MS admits they are still thing about.

    4. WHAT'S MISSING: something that makes it CLEAR whether there is a solution to point three.

    Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:56 PM
  • What is "point three" that you refer to, specifically?

    Install the free program ShellFolderFix and you will stop worrying about Windows not remembering Explorer window positions.  It works and it's stable.

    -Noel

    Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:07 PM
  • I've not had much luck with ShellFolderFix--if I move windows for any reason it asserts the new position instead. But I DL'ed WindowManager and it immediately does what I could never get SFF to do:

    1. Pin a window to a certain size, shape, and place on the Desktop

    2. Windows can be of apps other than Explorer i.e. different Notepad docs can be made different shapes/sizes/positions

    3. Other nifty features like "execute this when opening that"

    I used it for maybe 20 minutes and decided it is well worth the $10 bucks.

    Friday, August 05, 2011 7:25 PM
  • as if apple is any better.  all these giant corps do is try to get us worker-bees in line with their one-tracked systems, wrong or right.  i wish i had time to learn about redhat and open source and all the alternatives.  sadly i don't and have to cope the best i can with corp software that almost does what i want.

    why do they beta test the software if they don't even fix the complaints.  stupid.

    i paid good money for Win7 Ultimate and Micro$oft Office 2010 thinking I would rock'n'roll with it all exponentially better.  Did my homework on differences and had high hopes.  Now I realize that XP and earlier Office versions (without that ridiculous ribbon-bar crap, time-wasting ribbon-bar crap, worthless ribbon-bar crap, bloated ribbon-bar crap!!!) was way better.  Should've taken all that money and simply bought a SSD and more memory instead.  Damn.

    Saturday, September 17, 2011 10:09 PM
  • This is best solution for me.  It remembers ALL application window size and positions.  This is a "must have" for any professional with large desktop real estates.  There's no other software that can do this as well.  Best of all, it runs native Win7 64bit.  Too bad the only way I could find it is digging through this thread; as it's not searchable on Google by just searching for "remember window size and position Windows 7".  If it wasn't for this post, I would have kept looking; thinking there's no software out there that can do this properly.  I've been using clunky Autosizer which doesnt work under Win7 64; and, isn't even supported anymore.
    Not being able to reliably control the size and position of windows has irritated me for years and when I went to a dual monitor setup I decided something had to be done.  I bought ZMover (http://www.basta.com/Product.aspx?pid=11) and have never looked back.

    Regards

    Skier641

    Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:29 PM
  • The hotfix is only for restoring the window's position after a log-off, but not for remebering the window's size and position every time you close it, and not restoring it when you open it again. This problem is especially annoting in I.E. windows.
    • Edited by groucho43 Thursday, October 20, 2011 2:30 PM
    Thursday, October 20, 2011 2:29 PM
  • The final answer is: We are all screwed by the big all mighty companies like microsoft (only money rules for them and as said before most people dont understand shit about computers and software to be able too realize that it actually was better before win 7) But to have a microsoft tech person answer us with "NO answer" is so fucking ignorant that is beyond words..... All that is left is to finally leave the misserable microsoft world forever, do they care... hell no but it will make me feel good inside, SO FUCK OF MICRO$OFT ! LINUX HERE I COME
    Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:59 PM