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Win8 will never succeed until it provides a better way to exit/quit ANY app simply

    问题

  • The social Metro apps in Windows 8 are a nice step in the right direction.  However, no one I know will be adopting Windows 8 until it provides a standard way (button, menu, whatever) to exit/quit ANY app w/o resorting to the task manager.  That is, the default sleep-mode for the social apps which keeps the memory locked up, in the present Consumer Preview, is simply unacceptable and a huge security risk.  In my initial tests on a virtual machine, the Metro Mail app didn't close (but replicated another instance, according to the task manager) when I drug it downward as is the apparent method for a mouse-user.  It's also extremely inconvenient to drag a window all the way to the bottom of a large screen, like mine.  And remembering obscure keyboard shortcuts is for the birds -- not to mention incompatible with many "legacy" apps.

    In short, I fail to see the benefit of metro-style apps to desktop users, many of whom will want to know what they're apps are doing without having to dig up the task manager.

    2012年3月12日 19:04

答案

全部回复

  • They added a way between the DP and CP, but it's not like any way anyone's ever closed anything before.

    Putting your cursor (or finger) right at the top of the Metro app, you see the cursor change to a little hand.  Now drag it ALL the way to the bottom.  Boom, it's closed.  You're saying this doesn't work?

    Clicking on an [X] is SO 27 seconds ago...  ;)

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月12日 21:55
  • Alt+F4 works in Consumer Preview on my machine. It didn't in Developer Preview but does in my Consumer Preview.
    2012年3月12日 22:10
  • You don't need to close Metro apps. They are suspensed when being put on the background and stored into RAM. If the OS needs more RAM, it will kill them for you.

    The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background.

    • 已建议为答案 AnthonyDa 2012年3月12日 22:49
    2012年3月12日 22:36
  • They added a way between the DP and CP, but it's not like any way anyone's ever closed anything before.

    Putting your cursor (or finger) right at the top of the Metro app, you see the cursor change to a little hand.  Now drag it ALL the way to the bottom.  Boom, it's closed.  You're saying this doesn't work?

    Clicking on an [X] is SO 27 seconds ago...  ;)

    Nope, Mail consistently refused to close until I killed all instances via the Task Manager.  More to the point, I initially had no idea that Mail was still running until I opened the TM.  The cryptic way in which all Metro apps behave (or not) is too disconcerting for general use.  No status symbols, no close button, and dragging things with a mouse from top of screen to bottom is inconvenient and un-reliable for desktop mouse-use (not to mention a more demanding control mechanism than a button).  I understand that it's how certain tablets work, and that's great that it's tablet-friendly that way.  It's just not suitable for desktops, especially for desktops that are maxed out doing heavy computations, like mine usually is.  I don't trust apps that don't behave, and Metro apps without status/close symbols on them are clearly untrustworthy by design.

    Silverpulser, I'm not bothering to rehash what I said about esoteric keyboard shortcuts.  You can have them.

    Metro apps need re-design.

    2012年3月12日 22:40
  • They added a way between the DP and CP, but it's not like any way anyone's ever closed anything before.

    Putting your cursor (or finger) right at the top of the Metro app, you see the cursor change to a little hand.  Now drag it ALL the way to the bottom.  Boom, it's closed.  You're saying this doesn't work?

    Clicking on an [X] is SO 27 seconds ago...  ;)

    Nope, Mail consistently refused to close until I killed all instances via the Task Manager.  More to the point, I initially had no idea that Mail was still running until I opened the TM.  The cryptic way in which all Metro apps behave (or not) is too disconcerting for general use.  No status symbols, no close button, and dragging things with a mouse from top of screen to bottom is inconvenient and un-reliable for desktop mouse-use (not to mention a more demanding control mechanism than a button).  I understand that it's how certain tablets work, and that's great that it's tablet-friendly that way.  It's just not suitable for desktops, especially for desktops that are maxed out doing heavy computations, like mine usually is.  I don't trust apps that don't behave, and Metro apps without status/close symbols on them are clearly untrustworthy by design.

    Silverpulser, I'm not bothering to rehash what I said about esoteric keyboard shortcuts.  You can have them.

    Metro apps need re-design.

    Metro apps works fine on Windows Phone, and they will work find in W8. They don't need to be closed, they are chromeless and you can go back to the start screen with a single click/action.

    It won't change, there's no good reason to change it, deals with it.

    2012年3月12日 22:44
  • You don't need to close Metro apps. They are suspensed when being put on the background and stored into RAM. If the OS needs more RAM, it will kill them for you.

    The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background.

    Yeah, right.  House windows are DESIGNED to be closed for a pretty darn good reason.  The same will always be expected of virtual windows.
    2012年3月12日 22:47
  • You don't need to close Metro apps. They are suspensed when being put on the background and stored into RAM. If the OS needs more RAM, it will kill them for you.

    The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background.

    Yeah, right.  House windows are DESIGNED to be closed for a pretty darn good reason.  The same will always be expected of virtual windows.

    Wrong. Don't forget that Windows 8 is "Windows reimagined". See my previous comment to understand why you don't need to close metro apps.
    2012年3月12日 22:48
  • You don't need to close Metro apps.

    Well...  You just have to remember to ignore them all accumulating in the Alt - Tab list, getting in the way of things you really are running.  :)

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月12日 22:51
  • You don't need to close Metro apps.

    Well...  You just have to remember to ignore them all accumulating in the Alt - Tab list, getting in the way of things you really are running.  :)

     

    -Noel

    That's why you can only run up to 6 or 7 metro apps at the same time in the CP.

    • 已编辑 AnthonyDa 2012年3月12日 22:54 deleting spam signature from quote
    2012年3月12日 22:53
  • Wrong. Don't forget that Windows 8 is "Windows reimagined". See my previous comment to understand why you don't need to close metro apps.
    Whatever that means.  If it's not exactly a window, then what is it?  And why should I trust a sometimes un-manageable Microsoft "background"?  I suppose I shouldn't worry about closing the windows/doors whenever while I'm showering too, right?  Hmmm...
    2012年3月12日 23:05
  • That's why you can only run up to 6 or 7 metro apps at the same time in the CP.

    LOL, so you're thinking that's actually a feature with some kind of merit?  Good lord.  This is the kind of reimagining people do on acid.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月12日 23:06
  • You guys are so immature on this thread.

    Between the guy not trusting MS (when why are you using Windows?) and the others saying that MS guys are on acid, I don't know if I've lost my sense of humour or if you guys are serious here.

    2012年3月12日 23:08
  • Seriously, you're saying the OS just closes the 8th oldest Metro app you've started on purpose, so that not too many of them will accumulate?

    If that's actually true, someone needs to put the adults back in charge.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月12日 23:11
  • >..Silverpulser, I'm not bothering to rehash what I said about esoteric keyboard shortcuts.  You can have them...<

    When I started computing it was the mouse that was esoteric!! Keyboard was de facto and, by the way, much quicker to execute than navigating a mouse..

    2012年3月12日 23:15
  • You don't need to close Metro apps. They are suspensed when being put on the background and stored into RAM. If the OS needs more RAM, it will kill them for you.

    The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background.

    Hi Anthony

    We haven't been given much documentation on this subject yet, just a few hints.

    It's my understanding that a suspended app is stored in Virtual Memory and not RAM.

    There is a new file called Swapfile.sys that resides in the root of C: that is used for storing the suspended apps.

    Read the following thread.

    What is the purpose of the file C:\swapfile.sys:
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itproperf/thread/35351697-a1fc-4c39-9fc6-56edfe4241c9/#e27637a1-f65e-4dd2-acc0-622a3cda85d4

    More links:

    Guidelines for app suspend and resume:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465088.aspx

    How to suspend an app:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465138.aspx

    Regards

    2012年3月12日 23:49
    版主
  • >..Silverpulser, I'm not bothering to rehash what I said about esoteric keyboard shortcuts.  You can have them...<

    When I started computing it was the mouse that was esoteric!! Keyboard was de facto and, by the way, much quicker to execute than navigating a mouse..

    I personally never got too heavily into keyboard shortcuts.  For me it was all Mouse.  And not being able to single click and close an application when I no longer want it wasting my precious computing resources(Virtual or otherwise memory) is not preferred.

    Certainly I don't see dragging the screen from top to bottom as an improvement.  Nor do I see keeping something that I no longer need open.

    Of course if I have 8 things that I want open, it sounds like I am in trouble.

    Lets see.  2 IE windows (6 or 7 tabs each) 1 Inbox 5 emails in various stages of reply, 3 documents 2 reference 1 being updated in between other work, 4 spreadsheets 2 reference, 2 being updated, 2 RDP sessions, a Remote Control app, 5 chat boxes, and OCS itself, a Network monitor app, notepad(playing with a script), CMD prompt (playing with a script).  Hmm what can I close that I don't need.  Oh Nothing, because the reason I have it all open is that I ACTUALLY NEED IT!!! (ok in all fairness I could close the chat sessions but then I would need to reopen them later)

    2012年3月13日 3:11
  • Putting your cursor (or finger) right at the top of the Metro app, you see the cursor change to a little hand.  Now drag it ALL the way to the bottom.  Boom, it's closed.  You're saying this doesn't work?

    Or right click on it and select close. The goofy part is it can't be an active window.

    rtk

    2012年3月13日 5:55
  • Nope, Mail consistently refused to close until I killed all instances via the Task Manager.  More to the point, I initially had no idea that Mail was still running until I opened the TM.

    I'll admit to not testing this theory, but I'd assume you'd start by looking at what apps you have allowed to run in the background via the "lock screen apps" under the metro personalize screens.

    I believe Mail is one of the defaults. Try removing it and rebooting.

    rtk



    • 已编辑 arteekay 2012年3月13日 6:00
    2012年3月13日 6:00
  • Metro apps need better switching (how about the taskbar, Microsoft, on the Start Screen?), a close button and minimize button, then we will get somewhere remotely close to the superior desktop style multitasking. As for them cluttering my Alt-Tab list, it's so annoying (and Alt-Tab itself with its thumbnail previews is so annoying) that I replace it immediately with VistaSwitcher where you can define exclusions for any app.
    2012年3月13日 8:02
  • You don't need to close Metro apps. They are suspensed when being put on the background and stored into RAM. If the OS needs more RAM, it will kill them for you.

    The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background.

    Hi Anthony

    We haven't been given much documentation on this subject yet, just a few hints.

    It's my understanding that a suspended app is stored in Virtual Memory and not RAM.

    There is a new file called Swapfile.sys that resides in the root of C: that is used for storing the suspended apps.

    Read the following thread.

    What is the purpose of the file C:\swapfile.sys:
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itproperf/thread/35351697-a1fc-4c39-9fc6-56edfe4241c9/#e27637a1-f65e-4dd2-acc0-622a3cda85d4

    More links:

    Guidelines for app suspend and resume:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465088.aspx

    How to suspend an app:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465138.aspx

    Regards

    Hi, I have read all your links and couldn't conclude for sure that metro apps are always suspended into swapfile.sys. This file is probably here for PC who can't suspend all 6 metro apps in RAM, but it doesn't mean tha metrot apps aren't suspended in RAM if you have a lot of RAM..

    >..Silverpulser, I'm not bothering to rehash what I said about esoteric keyboard shortcuts.  You can have them...<

    When I started computing it was the mouse that was esoteric!! Keyboard was de facto and, by the way, much quicker to execute than navigating a mouse..

    I personally never got too heavily into keyboard shortcuts.  For me it was all Mouse.  And not being able to single click and close an application when I no longer want it wasting my precious computing resources(Virtual or otherwise memory) is not preferred.

    Certainly I don't see dragging the screen from top to bottom as an improvement.  Nor do I see keeping something that I no longer need open.

    Of course if I have 8 things that I want open, it sounds like I am in trouble.

    Lets see.  2 IE windows (6 or 7 tabs each) 1 Inbox 5 emails in various stages of reply, 3 documents 2 reference 1 being updated in between other work, 4 spreadsheets 2 reference, 2 being updated, 2 RDP sessions, a Remote Control app, 5 chat boxes, and OCS itself, a Network monitor app, notepad(playing with a script), CMD prompt (playing with a script).  Hmm what can I close that I don't need.  Oh Nothing, because the reason I have it all open is that I ACTUALLY NEED IT!!! (ok in all fairness I could close the chat sessions but then I would need to reopen them later)

    The limitation of 6 applications at the same times only applies to metro apps, which won't annoys you in your given example since you are using Desktop applications.
    2012年3月13日 9:58
  • Metro apps need better switching (how about the taskbar, Microsoft, on the Start Screen?), a close button and minimize button, then we will get somewhere remotely close to the superior desktop style multitasking. As for them cluttering my Alt-Tab list, it's so annoying (and Alt-Tab itself with its thumbnail previews is so annoying) that I replace it immediately with VistaSwitcher where you can define exclusions for any app.

    Switching for apps can be performed by placing the mouse in the top left corner and then moving down the left side. This will display a bar with running apps. Click to select.
    2012年3月13日 10:25
  • While I share the desire for a more visible "direct" means of closing an app, I'm not sure I see the huge security risk.  In essence, what I'm saying is "we" can make our case without the hyperbole, because its that hyperbole that makes it easier to shoot holes in an arguement.

    You know how people think, if they don't like "what you are trying to sell", they will look for any tiny speck to be out of place, and once discovered, that tiny speck is used to dismiss your entire premise.

    On this issue, I like the old way of just clicking an X to close an app, I knew it was gone, I was done.  Essentially, a non-problem that wasn't in search of a solution.  Muscle memory alone almost closed apps for me.

    But now "we" are on the stage trying to explain how little changes "hurt" us, but we need to be careful about the definition of "hurt" or we'll be written off as crackpots.  And you know they really want to write us off as "out of touch with the future" at a minimum, and if we give them the ammo, "crackpot" is even "better".

    Allow me to rewrite:

    I liked just clicking an "X", I knew the app was closed, or more accurately, the system would close it after prompting to save changes if required, and doing any required housekeeping.  Now, in order to get an app out of my way (to get to the "Start Screen") I have to grab the top edge and drag it all the way to the bottom, or, go over to the "Start Screen" hotspot at bottom left and click on that.  Why trade a large gesture or a different kind of click, when "I" know I wanted to close it?

    And that's really just the start of the problem, if I DID want to keep the app open (so I went to the hotspot) to launch another app, now my app is in the queue to be terminated as the system deems "neccessary".  So if I want that app to stick around, I ought to be calling up the queue from time to time, opening the app only to "minimize" it again (which doesn't exist in hard form anymore), my hope being that "touching" the app again changes it in the queue precedence so I can comfortably open other things before I get back to that one ata time of my own choosing.

    In other words, it seems like I have to perform "maintenence" to keep some semblence of "minimized".

    Yes, I know I can do what I want on the "desktop", but I'm discussing Metro right now, so "desktop" does not qualify as an answer to this issue.

    I have no concerns about the data being "exposed", nor do I worry about RAM to any extent, it seems silly to worry about "I've got 6GB and I'm not doing anything but the system is using 1 GB!!!  I don't care, and I trust MS is managing memory just fine for me, if there's an issue I'll squawk then.

    DAS

    2012年3月13日 11:44
  • Okey dokey.  I'm more confused about the direction and utility of Metro apps than ever now.  I can't think think of anything that I'd want to run as Metro app, given these limitations.  But maybe my imagination needs more training.
    2012年3月13日 13:01
  • DAS, people are going to take their points to extremes no matter what you do or say.  It might even be better if 3/4 billion "crackpots" were to chime in with threats to never buy another MS product - because that's the level Marketing people work on.

    The important thing for the people who are taking Microsoft's "side" on the way things look is that it's not done yet!  This is a Consumer Preview! 

    Now's PRECISELY the time for all us "crackpots" who want integration and continuity to raise our hands, raise our voices, and let them know it's not quite good enough as is! 

    This is not the time for telling someone who doesn't feel it's good enough to grin and bear it!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月13日 13:44
  • Metro apps need better switching (how about the taskbar, Microsoft, on the Start Screen?), a close button and minimize button, then we will get somewhere remotely close to the superior desktop style multitasking. As for them cluttering my Alt-Tab list, it's so annoying (and Alt-Tab itself with its thumbnail previews is so annoying) that I replace it immediately with VistaSwitcher where you can define exclusions for any app.

    If your Start screen is cluttered, do you uninstall apps, or just unpin tiles?

    If your Alt-Tab list (or app switcher) gets cluttered, should we be closing apps, or just hiding their activation points?

    If suspended apps can cause UI conjestion, then what's required is a method of handling that conjestion by hiding or partially hiding, least recently used apps, and/or allowing users to manage app visibility. Terminating processes and triggering RAM and swapfile management, just to improve end user app switching efficiency, is overkill - the wrong level of abstraction.

    2012年3月13日 13:51
  • I understand that, but with 2 reservations:

    1).  We still need to be exceedingly accurate (and detailed) in our objections, lest we get "written off".  Key is, written off can happen amongst peers as easily as it can inside the MS itself reviewing "the most compelling arguements we gathered from the forums".

    2).  I'm not at all sure the door is even open anymore.  After a reasonably long history with Microsoft, pre-beta has traditionally been the end of functional changes,  beta has largely been bug remediation, RC is essentially fixed.

    Just because Sinofsky et al have changed the names, doesn't mean the core levels (releases) don't match history.  Right now I'm hopeful LARGE changes are still possible, history tells me I'm very likely barking up the wrong tree.

    DAS

    2012年3月13日 13:55
  • Thanks Win7Tester.  I guess I've been submitting this feedback under the assumption that MS actually wants our feedback.  I admit that I need to tone my rhetoric down, and let the reported facts speak louder than my frustration with the changes.
    2012年3月13日 14:21
  • I hear you, and you're right on the first point, and probably (though I hope not) right on the second.  Perhaps the DP was the time for impassioned cries, while the CP is the time for well-worded tomes.

    I should think the points we've accumulted here should count for something, credibility-wise.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月13日 14:21
  • Switching for apps can be performed by placing the mouse in the top left corner and then moving down the left side. This will display a bar with running apps. Click to select.

    I know how to switch. I said they need "better" switching. It isn't as intuitive as the taskbar switching for desktop apps which doesn't require mouse acrobatics like remember which corner, take mouse to that corner, then take the mouse below, then figure out from the tiny thumbnail which app is which and then finally click the thumbnail to switch. Taskbar switching requires just one simple click when ungrouped. If switching between apps is a step back, give me a reason to use Metro apps over desktop apps.
    • 已编辑 xpclient 2012年3月13日 17:19
    2012年3月13日 17:13
  • Well, I tried to get the DP to work (i.e. with VirtualBox), but no such luck on all of 3 guided-attempts.  Even CP won't stay un-corrupted in VB for me right now.  Thus, I have to install a VB instance each session.  I'm not brave enough to install it on my primary disk just to test something I'm not sure I'll want to keep.
    • 已编辑 ksedicxc 2012年3月13日 17:34
    2012年3月13日 17:34
  • ksedicxc:

    Vmware player link:

    http://www.vmware.com/products/player/

    Try the following (keck link) after getting VMWare Player.  You'll have to sign up, but thats it, the player is free.  Incidentally, the player is every bit as good as the full-blown Workstation 8 as it applies to running the VM.

    http://ludwigkeck.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/windows-8-on-vmware-player/

    Best of luck,

    DAS

    2012年3月13日 18:22
  • Thank you everybody for providing the ways to close apps. Both dragging the screen and Alt+F4 work fine!

    Another option would be to right-click the window thumbnail on the left-most pane (how do you call it by the way?) and select Close.

    While I am not advocating for manual closing of screens, I feel really bad about the clutter they create! It's extremely hard to get the screen you need when scrolling through that left-most pane if you have multiple opened screens. I don't know why, but I keep seeing apps 'hanging' in background while being unused for hours if not days! And even having those unused apps displayed in Task Manager somehow creates a little mess.


    Well this is the world we live in And these are the hands we're given...


    2012年3月13日 18:23
  • @Andrew Willows [MSFT] "Switching for apps can be performed by placing the mouse in the top left corner and then moving down the left side. This will display a bar with running apps. Click to select."

    @xpclient "I know how to switch. I said they need "better" switching. It isn't as intuitive as the taskbar switching for desktop apps which doesn't require mouse acrobatics like remember which corner, take mouse to that corner, then take the mouse below, then figure out from the tiny thumbnail which app is which and then finally click the thumbnail to switch. Taskbar switching requires just one simple click when ungrouped. If switching between apps is a step back, give me a reason to use Metro apps over desktop apps."

    My suggestion for improving app switching (@desktop) with a mouse, is:

    • Retain the Start button (but now using the nice new blue logo)
    • Add a jump list to the Start button
    • Display open Metro style apps in the jump list
    • Display the charm bar items in the jump list
    • Display a 'Start' option in the jump list
    • Give users the option to disable the app switcher and charms bar (independently), or at least give admins these options via Group Policy.

    A nice addition to Taskbar jump lists would be to display lists with logical groupings, by means of a subtle horizontal line, like the lines used in the right-side column of the Start Menu (in Win7, Vista). For the jump list suggested here, open apps would be one group, and the charm options another. As another example, Internet Explorer jump lists should seperate items into groups based on window association - one group per window.

    A more 'experimental' idea; hitting the lower-left corner (where the Start button is) and left-clicking, opens Start. However, slowing down the mouse pointer so that it stops over the Start button - does not hit the corner - and left-clicking, activates the last used Metro style app. Equivalent to this would be hitting the corner, and then moving away a few pixels, roughly towards the center of the Start button. The purpose of this is:

    • To provide a quicker way of switching to the last used Metro style app, and avoiding the problems associated with using the app switcher
    • To allow users to learn that the screen corners "mean something", and that moving just a few pixels away before clicking can result in something other than what was expected from occuring. However, that something else would be benign in this case, even desirable, as opposed to say, accidently clicking the red X when attempting to activate the charms bar.

    When the mouse pointer is moved to the lower-left corner, the jump list is displayed, with 'Start' highlighted. The icon is like the Start thumbnail used in the app switcher. When hovering over the Start button, the last used Metro app is highlighted. Left-clicking then activates the highlighted option - the user does not have to move up to the list to highlight an entry. Jump lists in general should use last used default highlighting.

    • 已编辑 Drewfus 2012年3月14日 2:10
    2012年3月14日 0:12
  • Ah, VMware does work.  How about that!  Thanks!
    2012年3月14日 2:25
  • Closing APPs:

    1.  Drag to bottom of screen
    2. Alt + F4
    3. All open/active APPS sit @ the upper-left.  There you can view them, select them, snap them left or right, putting 1 or 2 on a side panel @ the same time as Desktop AND close them @ that upper-left 'panel'...let's call it the App Bar.

    This info you may find helpful...
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/2faadba8-7568-48fb-ac93-0282c438bfea

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    2012年3月14日 6:10
  • @Andrew Willows [MSFT] "Switching for apps can be performed by placing the mouse in the top left corner and then moving down the left side. This will display a bar with running apps. Click to select."

    @xpclient "I know how to switch. I said they need "better" switching. It isn't as intuitive as the taskbar switching for desktop apps which doesn't require mouse acrobatics like remember which corner, take mouse to that corner, then take the mouse below, then figure out from the tiny thumbnail which app is which and then finally click the thumbnail to switch. Taskbar switching requires just one simple click when ungrouped. If switching between apps is a step back, give me a reason to use Metro apps over desktop apps."

    My suggestion for improving app switching (@desktop) with a mouse, is:

    • Retain the Start button (but now using the nice new blue logo)
    • Add a jump list to the Start button
    • Display open Metro style apps in the jump list
    • Display the charm bar items in the jump list
    • Display a 'Start' option in the jump list
    • Give users the option to disable the app switcher and charms bar (independently), or at least give admins these options via Group Policy.

    A nice addition to Taskbar jump lists would be to display lists with logical groupings, by means of a subtle horizontal line, like the lines used in the right-side column of the Start Menu (in Win7, Vista). For the jump list suggested here, open apps would be one group, and the charm options another. As another example, Internet Explorer jump lists should seperate items into groups based on window association - one group per window.

    A more 'experimental' idea; hitting the lower-left corner (where the Start button is) and left-clicking, opens Start. However, slowing down the mouse pointer so that it stops over the Start button - does not hit the corner - and left-clicking, activates the last used Metro style app. Equivalent to this would be hitting the corner, and then moving away a few pixels, roughly towards the center of the Start button. The purpose of this is:

    • To provide a quicker way of switching to the last used Metro style app, and avoiding the problems associated with using the app switcher
    • To allow users to learn that the screen corners "mean something", and that moving just a few pixels away before clicking can result in something other than what was expected from occuring. However, that something else would be benign in this case, even desirable, as opposed to say, accidently clicking the red X when attempting to activate the charms bar.

    When the mouse pointer is moved to the lower-left corner, the jump list is displayed, with 'Start' highlighted. The icon is like the Start thumbnail used in the app switcher. When hovering over the Start button, the last used Metro app is highlighted. Left-clicking then activates the highlighted option - the user does not have to move up to the list to highlight an entry. Jump lists in general should use last used default highlighting.

    Your suggestions are jokes. They aren't construtive at all and it's clear that you h&ven't played a lot with the CP. They aren't constructives at all, none of them!

    -The start button is still here on the charm bar. The old icon was a waste of space and you can still click on the left bottom corner to get to the start screen.

    -You can right click on that same corner to get a contextual menu for power user. That menu can be customized.

    -The charmbar is really powerfull, why would we remove it?? Ho yeah, let's remove on the best feature of Windows 8 for fun. Once you started using it, the charmbar is your new best friend. If you remove it, you'll lose some essientials features (such as search anywhere, settings, share).

    -Same goes for the apps switcher, unless you really want to put your mouse on the corner and drag it down, it doesn't bother you. The gesture to bring charmbar & apps switcher can't be performed by accident.

    2012年3月14日 8:00
  • Closing APPs:

    1.  Drag to bottom of screen
    2. Alt + F4
    3. All open/active APPS sit @ the upper-left.  There you can view them, select them, snap them left or right, putting 1 or 2 on a side panel @ the same time as Desktop AND close them @ that upper-left 'panel'...let's call it the App Bar.

    This info you may find helpful...
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/2faadba8-7568-48fb-ac93-0282c438bfea

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    The "App bar" is the bar who appears at the bottom of your screen (ex: when right clicking on metro apps).

    I'm pretty sure that you can close metro apps on that apps switcher by middle clicking on it, just like it works on the thumbnail on the Desktop since Windows 7.

    2012年3月14日 8:02
  • Ok, I better call it APP panel, then. Must have a name or label, I just never caught on to 1.  Anyway the upper right side (edge).

    And, nope.  @ least I tried what you describe & nope, not for me.  Some APPs, 'bar' popped up but, no close, no 'X'.  I've looked hard.  Only found or know of the 3 I mentioned.

    Oh, while @ Start, there is, if, you go to the pop-up bar, Turn On/Off Live Tile icon, Unpin & Uninstall, no close.  And you don't get that bar while an APP is open/being viewed.  The discussion is regarding , while an APP is filing the screen, to close it, 'x' it.

    Wait a minute...that's what I said but, it's @ the side not, the bottom.  >>> Yes, Rt Clk on an APP there, menu options are... Close, Snap Left & Snap Right.  Even when I have my Taskbar on the right side.. The APPs Panel was on the left side edge.

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    • 已建议为答案 Drew1903 2012年9月7日 21:40
    2012年3月14日 8:33
  • Why this obsession with closing apps and shutting down the PC? Windows 8 manages your apps and resources when not in use and can do a far better job. You don't have to micro manage by closing apps. I rarely shutdown my computer either but goes into standby mode. This is not the 1990's people.
    2012年3月14日 14:41
  • When the mouse pointer is moved to the lower-left corner, the jump list is displayed, with 'Start' highlighted. The icon is like the Start thumbnail used in the app switcher. When hovering over the Start button, the last used Metro app is highlighted. Left-clicking then activates the highlighted option - the user does not have to move up to the list to highlight an entry. Jump lists in general should use last used default highlighting.

    Your suggestions are jokes. They aren't construtive at all and it's clear that you h&ven't played a lot with the CP. They aren't constructives at all, none of them!

    -The start button is still here on the charm bar. The old icon was a waste of space and you can still click on the left bottom corner to get to the start screen.

    -You can right click on that same corner to get a contextual menu for power user. That menu can be customized.

    -The charmbar is really powerfull, why would we remove it?? Ho yeah, let's remove on the best feature of Windows 8 for fun. Once you started using it, the charmbar is your new best friend. If you remove it, you'll lose some essientials features (such as search anywhere, settings, share).

    -Same goes for the apps switcher, unless you really want to put your mouse on the corner and drag it down, it doesn't bother you. The gesture to bring charmbar & apps switcher can't be performed by accident.

    I think I understand all the "charms", hand-waving, and app-switching better now.  And maybe in a month or two of use, I could get better used to it, but I can already see that the whole design is VERY desktop/mouse unfriendly -- especially for people like me who regularly stress their machine to the max to stay competitive/employed.  And I absolutely hate all of the complex mouse/hand-waving required to get to all of the "charming" hidden menus.  I think the frustration primarily centers on the fact that the really basic charm functions (e.g. close/exit, app-activity) require CPU (i.e. due to complex mouse gestures) to even become visible/selectable.  I still say that all apps need a more basic close/exit "charm".  Otherwise, there's little chance of us adopting Metro apps to do anything.

    The mail tool needs A LOT of work.  I couldn't find any email-threading, task/contact suggestions, or pretty much any of the power features in the Gmail interface.  The Contacts app is a nice start, but it's not clear to me how to sift quickly through my hundreds of contacts.  The Calendar app only recognized one of my Google calendars.  Hopefully they're just works-in-progress, because I don't find any of them mature enough to prefer over my existing cloud-apps.

    That, and I just can't shake the disconcerted feeling I get about letting misbehaving Metro apps (especially Mail/Calendar/Contacts) know all of my personal data.  They just don't die, when I tell them too.  Mail replicates itself in the task manager instead of closing -- like I told it to.  Only the TM kills them.  The "legacy" apps I've tried so far behave just fine -- and thank goodness, they don't depend on "charms" to close and display their progress.

    2012年3月14日 14:57
  • Why this obsession with closing apps and shutting down the PC? Windows 8 manages your apps and resources when not in use and can do a far better job. You don't have to micro manage by closing apps. I rarely shutdown my computer either but goes into standby mode. This is not the 1990's people.

    Obsession?  And like you or anyone else can judge whether it does "a far better job" at this point.

    Are you saying that people in the new millennium should have less interest in cleaning up after themselves? 

    The idea of application continuity, pioneered by Apple, seems to be the motivation, but did you ever stop to think that maybe some folks might WANT to clean up so they can start afresh next time?  That's how some people think.  Tidy, organized folks actually LIKE to clean up their work bench when they finish a project so that at the start of the next project everything's in its place and ready to go.  I guess that kind of thinking must be out of fashion.

    Oh, and did you read the part where the more apps you leave open, the more certain parts of your UI gets cluttered up with apps?  Maybe you don't prefer to use Alt-Tab, so that makes it okay?  Does a long list of suspended things in the Task Manager help you find what you're looking for?  You don't use the Task Manager anyway, so...

        

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    P.S., I never shut my systems off - they have things to do 24/7.  That doesn't make me wish other people should have more difficulty shutting theirs down.

    2012年3月14日 17:55
  • ksedicxc:

    Glad you got it working, and I hope you enjoy the CP.

    DAS

    2012年3月14日 22:42
  • ksedicxc;

    APPS can be turned on or off @ the Start screen.

    APPs can be closed by Rt Clk & Close @ the upper left side/ edge where they sit when they are active/open.

    The dragging thing is 1 way but, far from the only way.

    As for Charms (Win+C) or top or bottom-right corner... personally I rarely use it... there are faster, more direct ways to get to things beyond (or on) Charms.

    As for using Charms to get to the Power button... there can be a Shutdown button & a Restart button... these can be on Start as tiles & or placed on Quick Launch, Taskbar, Desktop.

    Here is for those buttons, in case your interested, followed by a link offering some Nav Tips for Windows8



    Shutdown:
    C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /
    s /t 0



    Restart: C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /
    r /t 0



    The steps to add the buttons are:



    1.Navigate to:C:\Users\[USERID]\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start
    Menu\Programs

    2.Right-Click & select New -> Shortcut

    3.Type the location of the item: C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /s /t 0 (This
    can be changed as shown above for Restart)

    4.Click Next

    5.Type a name for this shortcut: Shutdown NOW! (Restart Now)

    6.Click Finish

    7.Press Windows Key to return to Start Page

    8.Right-Click on the new tile

    9.Click Open file location

    10.Click Change Icon

    11.Click OK when you get the error message.

    12.Click the Shutdown Icon

    13.Click OK

    14.Click Apply

    15.Click OK


    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/2faadba8-7568-48fb-ac93-0282c438bfea

    I trust this info will enhance you enjoying Windows8

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    • 已建议为答案 Drew1903 2012年9月7日 21:40
    2012年3月15日 7:06
  • I must say that now I have used Noel's tip about dragging the app to the bottom of the screen I really like it. Far from being slower than clicking on a red cross I find it actually quicker as you don't need to be nearly as accurate in the mouse pointer placement at the top of the screen as you do with the red cross.

    Mind you, Alt+F4 is even quicker. When I worked in the bank and computerisation was still in it's infancy in the branches, we were encouraged to learn the "fast paths" and I still use many of them.

    2012年3月15日 10:55
  • - APPs can be closed by Rt Clk & Close @ the upper left side/ edge where they sit when they are active/open.
    ...

    - As for using Charms to get to the Power button... there can be a Shutdown button & a Restart button... these can be on Start as tiles & or placed on Quick Launch, Taskbar, Desktop.
    Here is for those buttons, in case your interested, followed by a link offering some Nav Tips for Windows8

    Shutdown: C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /s /t 0
    Restart: C:\Windows\System32\shutdown.exe /
    r /t 0

    The steps to add the buttons are:
    1... -- 15...

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/2faadba8-7568-48fb-ac93-0282c438bfea

    - I trust this info will enhance you enjoying Windows8

    Thanks for the tips, but I still haven't observed the first thing I quoted from you, above.  You're not the first to mention such a thing, and thus I'm probably not using Metro apps as intended.  I keep getting distracted by how squirly they behave (or misbehave).  My imagination is a work in progress, though.

    It may be just my imagination, or the fact that the CP doesn't pre-install much of anything that I've been using (i.e. is still "un-polluted"), but the OS does seem more peppy, in general.  I thought the same thing about Win7, though, until about a month later.  Thus, the jury's still out on that one, in my book.  The Win7 productivity enhancements still outweigh the eventual sluggishness that set in.  I keep hoping that some future version of Win will avoid getting bogged down at all, but I'm not holding my breath.

    As for the shutdown&restart "apps," thanks!  I sure hope that something like this will become a standard feature (i.e. part of the design), though.

    My main concern, though, is to encourage MS to make the Metro app design a little more "charming" for desktop-mouse users.

    2012年3月15日 13:04
  • ALT + F4  works.

    The "drag" gesture is just ridiculous with a mouse.  I don't see why a stupid X button is so hard...  Either in the corner where it always was or perhaps to the far right on the 'app bar' which pops up with a right click.

    Personally, I'm an alt-f4 addict though so it doesn't bother me that much.

    But the mouse gesture way is just idiotic.  Really cool on a tablet though.

    2012年3月15日 13:55
  • Keyboard was ... much quicker to execute than navigating a mouse..

    It still is.  Imo, that ain't gonna change.

    I'll close 5 apps with alt-f4 before a mouse person even reaches the 'X' button.

    2012年3月15日 13:58
  • If Alt + F4 worked universally with every app, I *might* agree with you -- although that key combination is not convenient to me.  But Alt + F4 doesn't work in every app, and thus it's a non-starter.  A better Metro "charm" for closing is thus still warranted.
    2012年3月15日 14:54
  • @Aroush

    Why are you closing apps?

    Is it because you don't trust the new memory management algorithm for Metro style apps, or is to trim your Alt-Tab list?

    If the later, are you implementing and advocating a workaround, rather than focusing on the underlying issue?

    The Alt-Tab window perhaps should implement a 'Hide' option for each app, displayed at top-right of, or just above each thumbnail. That way, users can keep their own app switching efficient, while leaving the process and memory management to Windows.

    2012年3月15日 15:12
  • Why are you closing apps?

    Because I can't stand having to tab/cycle through a gazillion open applications when I don't need them anymore.

    Even on windows phone, this annoyes me.

    I don't consider closing applications a "work around" to get to a cleaner alt-tab list.  I think it's plain common sense.  If you don't close it, it will be open and pop-up in the list.  If you close it, it won't.

    Seems likely perfectly rational and expected behaviour to me.

    The Alt-Tab window perhaps should implement a 'Hide' option for each app, displayed at top-right of, or just above each thumbnail

    Seems like unnecessary app management to me, creating far more overhead then it should.  If you can push a button to "hide" an open app, how is that different from pushing a button to simply close it?

    Doesn't make sense.

    2012年3月15日 15:27
  • The option to kill the metro apps is only here for people who can't get over the idea of letting an apps in the background

    Or....

    For those people who like to do their own app management.  I think it's incredibly condescending of an OS trying to do that for me.

    It's not about them being in the background or not.  It's about unnecessary cycling/tabbing through open applications that you don't need anymore.

    2012年3月15日 15:30
  • I can't comment on that claim, since I haven't started every metro app available.  I can only say that all the ones I've used, behaved as expected when pressing alt+f4

    2012年3月15日 15:34
  • "Because I can't stand having to tab/cycle through a gazillion open applications when I don't need them anymore."

    As a 'standalone' point, fair enough, and as you say, perfectly rational and expected.

    The Alt-Tab window perhaps should implement a 'Hide' option for each app, displayed at top-right of, or just above each thumbnail

    Seems like unnecessary app management to me, creating far more overhead then it should.  If you can push a button to "hide" an open app, how is that different from pushing a button to simply close it?

    Doesn't make sense.

    I can't believe someone like you would say that. From the superficial point of view of the user, it would not appear to be different, but from a memory management point of view, it is very different! A hidden app would stay cached in RAM and/or the swapfile (not sure of the specifics in Win8 yet), whereas a closed app does not. What happens when the user wants to use the app again? The hidden app is simply reactivated, just like a visible app. The closed app has to be reopened, with all the process and memory management that implies. Seems like unnecessary app management to me!

    I think some of you guys are simply not considering that the Alt-Tab idea is not so applicable to the new memory management 'paradigm'. Instead of ignoring the benefits of the new paradigm - Windows handling all resource management, not just some of it - and continuing to close apps manually, it would be far better to let Windows do what it does best and focus attention on getting things like the Alt-Tab window more optimized for use in the Metro world, and forget about the best way or any way of closing apps.

    2012年3月15日 16:06
  • I'm curious, Drewfus, what do you think is so wrong with managing memory the "old fashioned" way (closing an app, and loading up a new one afresh when you need it)?  Do you anticipate computers and mass storage getting slower?  I admit, seeing where Windows 8 is going it's easy to imagine computers are becoming less powerful.

    Right now, today, with my 3+ year old computer I can start most apps cold from the hard drive and be ready to work in well under a second - about as long as it takes to move hand from mouse to keyboard.

    This "new paradigm" you seem fond of sounds a bit like a solution looking for a problem to me.

    But, even more importantly, and as I've mentioned above, I don't think this is really a technological issue at all... 

    There are those who don't WANT to continue where they left off last time.  Some folks prefer to finish what they're doing, and start from the same repeatable initial condition every time.  Many folks prefer PC over Apple for this reason.

    Here's an example that might help make it more clear: 

    You're tasked with looking up some piece of information to complete a complex task...  Say, for example, you're looking for the syntax of an HTML element so as to continue some web page work you're doing.  So you start your web browser to go look up the information on that element.  What happens next...

    1.  Because you closed your browser last time, when you start IE it takes you to your familiar home page, which you're quite used to seeing, and because of that it is not distracting at all.  It might even be a search engine page, ready to help you locate the information you need.  So, keeping your mind on your task, you enter your search string or choose from your Favorites and move on to find the HTML info.

    -or-

    2.  The remnants of your last browsing session come up when you start IE, and you're immediately distracted from your HTML task and begin thinking about what you were doing when you left the browser last time.  It jars you, and you lose your train of thought.

    This is a very real example, and food for thought.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月15日 16:29
  • I'm glad that ALT-F4 works as I am one of those Obsessive-Compulsive people who want to close them when I am finished.  However, I cannot get the finger to work very well at all either on my ACER tablet or my Desktop PC with ViewSonic touch.  It just does nothing.  I can do the swipe and it works sometimes.  It is all easier on Windows Phone.  I am about to think you need more of that.

    The backup key (<-)kills the app; why not do that?  I suggest the unified inbox as well for Mail and the three dots at the bottom for options.  Much more intuitive than Windows 8.

    2012年3月15日 16:32
  • I am one of those Obsessive-Compulsive people who want to close them when I am finished

    I don't think wanting to clean up after oneself is really a compulsion so much as a workable life philosophy.  But your post makes my point above very nicely.  Thank you.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月15日 16:47
  •  A hidden app would stay cached in RAM

    Suspended apps are not stored in RAM. 

    What happens when the user wants to use the app again? The hidden app is simply reactivated, just like a visible app. The closed app has to be reopened, with all the process and memory management that implies. Seems like unnecessary app management to me!

    "I can't believe someone like you would say that".  If I close an app, then that means that I don't plan on using it again right away.  Which means that I will be working in other apps.  Which means that windows itself will be closing it eventually anyway.  If windows itself wouldn't be closing apps as it sees fit (NOT ME! WINDOWS!), you'ld have sort of a valid point.  But it does.  So you don't.

    Secondly, a metro app typically will load pretty fast.  If it takes a while to boot, then it is somewhat of a heavy app. Then it will also take a while to reactivate, since it needs to be reloaded in RAM and windows needs to reïnitialise its state.  The difference here won't be that big.  Not to mention that I purposefully have chosen to unload it completely.  Not windows.  Me.  I think I know better then my operating system what I plan to be doing next...

     Windows handling all resource management, not just some of it

    Well, excuse me that I like to be in control of what my computer is doing.

    2012年3月16日 8:44
  • Noel, do you display such an arrogant, snotty, pompous, irritating obnoxiousness w/ the ppl w/ whom you live & work or just us fortunate few in this forum?  It's really getting to the point that it be great to be spared your 'attitude' & crappy way of speaking to ppl.

    What a sour, condescending, egotistical, little smart-ass, you are.  Glad there are only a few that taint gatherings, threads & discussions, the way you do.  And, before you try to have another of your argue-sessions or more of your nasty confrontationalism… Spare me... cus, I'm far from the only one who has the same observations & sentiments.  Ergo, never mind telling everybody, we are all idiots & you're, actually, an angel.  We've heard it all before, already.

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com


    • 已编辑 Drew1903 2012年3月16日 9:07
    2012年3月16日 9:04
  • Running apps which I no longer need are distracting.

    They are cluttering Alt-Tab bar, and they may even bring up privacy issues (why should the last read confidential document stay open in the background, so that somebody else, who has access to my computer, can get it in front via Alt-Tab without even having to search for it intended? (Don't overestimate the computer knowledge and care of people who have to deal with confidential documents. What's out of their eyes is gone.)

    Also the ergonomics is catastrophic. Alt+F4 - who knows even that the shortcut exists?  We geeks from ancient computer age know - but common users? Come on. If I would start a quiz in my company what this hotkey does, I bet in best case 25% of the users would know this. And dragging with the mouse - to close an app? With Win 7 you move the mouse to the X and click. Now you move the mouse to the top area, have to hit an unidentifiable spot and move the mouse the full way back to the bottom. So you have doubled the mouse way. Don't we have already enough people with sicknesses in hand/arm caused by too heavy mouse use? Leave alone the fact, that none of these methods is intuitive.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    2012年3月16日 9:37
  • That was uncalled for Drew.

    Noel can be a bit rude sometimes, but I don't see anything in this particular post that deserved such a reply.

    2012年3月16日 9:46
  • Didn't relate to any 1 particular post.  A bit??  Sometimes??  A lot, often, to many ppl.  And that is uncalled for!

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    2012年3月16日 10:23
  • Looks like I must have stepped on someone's toes.  I'm sorry about that.

    Funny thing though...  I seem to be getting a fair number of helpful votes for telling it like it is, Drew.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年3月16日 14:15
  •  A hidden app would stay cached in RAM

    Suspended apps are not stored in RAM. 

     Windows handling all resource management, not just some of it

    Well, excuse me that I like to be in control of what my computer is doing.

    Metro apps are suspended into RAM, just look at the task manager.

    And you aren't in full control of your OS, and you never were until today, and you will never be. (feel free to bring your own scheduler into Windows for example, good luck with that).

    2012年3月16日 14:29
  • And you aren't in full control of your OS, and you never were until today, and you will never be. (feel free to bring your own scheduler into Windows for example, good luck with that).

    not for OS, no, but we are talking about Applications here. And a Word, which is closed, is really closed and not only invisible untily you use Alt-Tab (unless we have a crashed instance)..

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    2012年3月16日 23:49
  • Funny thing though...  I seem to be getting a fair number of helpful votes for telling it like it is, Drew.

     

    -Noel

    Helpful is subjective, and there's no "unhelpful" votes. As well, it's a trivial system to game. A snarky comment will get more helpful votes than an actual helpful post.

    That's not to say you're not helpful at times. ;-)


    rtk


    • 已编辑 arteekay 2012年3月17日 8:20
    2012年3月17日 8:17
  • Well put, rtk

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com

    2012年3月17日 9:07
  • Thanks Drew1903, hope you found it.... helpful! :-)

    rtk

    2012年3月17日 10:18
  •  A hidden app would stay cached in RAM

    Suspended apps are not stored in RAM. 

    What happens when the user wants to use the app again? The hidden app is simply reactivated, just like a visible app. The closed app has to be reopened, with all the process and memory management that implies. Seems like unnecessary app management to me!

    "I can't believe someone like you would say that".  If I close an app, then that means that I don't plan on using it again right away.  Which means that I will be working in other apps.  Which means that windows itself will be closing it eventually anyway.  If windows itself wouldn't be closing apps as it sees fit (NOT ME! WINDOWS!), you'ld have sort of a valid point.  But it does.  So you don't.

    Secondly, a metro app typically will load pretty fast.  If it takes a while to boot, then it is somewhat of a heavy app. Then it will also take a while to reactivate, since it needs to be reloaded in RAM and windows needs to reïnitialise its state.  The difference here won't be that big.  Not to mention that I purposefully have chosen to unload it completely.  Not windows.  Me.  I think I know better then my operating system what I plan to be doing next...

     Windows handling all resource management, not just some of it

    Well, excuse me that I like to be in control of what my computer is doing.

    Most of what you say here if factually incorrect, based on the false assumption that suspended apps are suspended to disk. In fact it is not even completely accurate to say that suspended apps are suspended to RAM. Instead, suspended apps are halted. The suspended app's threads receive zero CPU time. 'Suspended' in the Metro app context is really a reference to processor activity, not saving of state - like Sleep saving to RAM or Hibernate saving to disk. It is however correct to say that when suspended, the app's user data state is saved to disk (not the app itself).

    There are a few people in this thread who would benefit from watching the following //build/ video.

    Fundamentals of Metro style apps: how and when your app will run

    The Metro style app process lifetime model includes the following 3 possible app process states:

    • Running (foreground app)
    • Suspended (app data state is saved to disk, app is paused - threads are halted)
    • Terminated (app is closed - either by the system under low memory conditions, or manually, by the user)

    Under the suspended state, the app remains in RAM, including all its threads, stack and heap. The means the app can be instantly reactivated when the user switches back to the app. This is called Resume, and the near instantaneous switching between running (foreground) app and a suspended app is called Fast App Switching. Terminated apps are deleted from memory mainly based on RAM footprint. Termination also occurs when the Current User changes, or the app crashes.

    All this has lots to do with maximizing battey life.

    2012年3月18日 8:19
  • @Noel Carboni

    "I'm curious, Drewfus, what do you think is so wrong with managing memory the "old fashioned" way (closing an app, and loading up a new one afresh when you need it)?"

    Nothing, just like there is nothing wrong with baking your own bread or sewing your own clothes. :-)

    Do you anticipate computers and mass storage getting slower?

    The opposite of course, which is why users should be spending less time on resource management as computers become more powerful and resource costs fall towards zero. Why have users managing things like memory utilization when the thousands of engineers who work at Microsoft can do the job for them, and so much better?

    "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them. Operations of thought are like cavalry charges in a battle - they are strictly limited in number, they require fresh horses, and must only be made at decisive moments." A. N. Whitehead

    "There are those who don't WANT to continue where they left off last time.  Some folks prefer to finish what they're doing, and start from the same repeatable initial condition every time.  Many folks prefer PC over Apple for this reason."

    So finish what your doing, then close the app!

    Nothing about the suspend model says you can't or should not close apps manually, but in the large majority of cases, this will be unnecessary.

    2012年3月18日 8:52
  • Fundamentals of Metro style apps: how and when your app will run

    The Metro style app process lifetime model includes the following 3 possible app process states:

    • Running (foreground app)
    • Suspended (app data state is saved to disk, app is paused - threads are halted)
    • Terminated (app is closed - either by the system under low memory conditions, or manually, by the user)

    All this has lots to do with maximizing battery life.

    Thanks!  I can now see how the suspended state is useful for battery-dependent devices, and why they may desire such an option.  Unfortunately this appears to be THE default behavior for the Mail app (an perhaps others I've yet to try), regardless of whether you've told it to close/exit or not.  The only apparent way to actually "terminate" Mail is via the TM.  And currently there is no obvious way to change this behavior, which many like me will never trust.

    Many of us, who are security/privacy minded for whatever reason, will simply not tolerate this kind of behavior.  Thus, there needs to be simple way to disable all such default-suspensions.  Thus, is there such an option?  And is it easy to change?  If so, Win8 needs to either present this option during Win8-installation (i.e. globally) or as a first-run option for all such apps.  In other words, this option needs to stated upfront and clearly to the user and/or app-installer, rather than implemented against their wishes.

    2012年3月18日 21:58
  • Fundamentals of Metro style apps: how and when your app will run

    The Metro style app process lifetime model includes the following 3 possible app process states:

    • Running (foreground app)
    • Suspended (app data state is saved to disk, app is paused - threads are halted)
    • Terminated (app is closed - either by the system under low memory conditions, or manually, by the user)

    All this has lots to do with maximizing battery life.

    Thanks!  I can now see how the suspended state is useful for battery-dependent devices, and why they may desire such an option.  Unfortunately this appears to be THE default behavior for the Mail app (an perhaps others I've yet to try), regardless of whether you've told it to close/exit or not.  The only apparent way to actually "terminate" Mail is via the TM.  And currently there is no obvious way to change this behavior, which many like me will never trust.

    Many of us, who are security/privacy minded for whatever reason, will simply not tolerate this kind of behavior.  Thus, there needs to be simple way to disable all such default-suspensions.  Thus, is there such an option?  And is it easy to change?  If so, Win8 needs to either present this option during Win8-installation (i.e. globally) or as a first-run option for all such apps.  In other words, this option needs to stated upfront and clearly to the user and/or app-installer, rather than implemented against their wishes.

    Can you please stop saying that this is a security issue? Because this isn't a security issue.

    If you are scared about somebody who can look at your email, lock your computer. Even if the application is closed, anybody can start the mail apps and read your email without any password needed.

    There will never be an option to prevent apps from suspending, you read it first.

    2012年3月18日 22:13
  • Can you please stop saying that this is a security issue? Because this isn't a security issue.

    If you are scared about somebody who can look at your email, lock your computer. Even if the application is closed, anybody can start the mail apps and read your email without any password needed.

    There will never be an option to prevent apps from suspending, you read it first.

    I will stop calling it a security issue whenever you succeed in convincing me that it is NOT one -- for any app-data that remains in memory of any form is by default an UNDESIRED security hazard.  For instance, running/minimized/suspended apps will be an obvious target for any malware that may come our way, desiring to learn our habits.  As such, this has nothing to do with whether someone keeps their computer locked when away from it, or not.  And many of us are not going to trust your Microsoft assurances about app security.

    In fact, many of us will want to be alerted when an app even desires to be suspended.  Hence, this option needs to be upfront and easily controlled.  Perhaps, you're hearing this for the first time (from me), but it certainly won't be the last time.  And if this is not addressed, it will become yet another excuse for millions of users to either abandon Windows altogether, or find some third-party "app" to make it obey our every wish and command.

    2012年3月18日 23:07
  • Can you please stop saying that this is a security issue? Because this isn't a security issue.

    If you are scared about somebody who can look at your email, lock your computer. Even if the application is closed, anybody can start the mail apps and read your email without any password needed.

    There will never be an option to prevent apps from suspending, you read it first.

    I will stop calling it a security issue whenever you succeed in convincing me that it is NOT one -- for any app-data that remains in memory of any form is by default an UNDESIRED security hazard.  For instance, running/minimized/suspended apps will be an obvious target for any malware that may come our way, desiring to learn our habits.  As such, this has nothing to do with whether someone keeps their computer locked when away from it, or not.  And many of us are not going to trust your Microsoft assurances about app security.

    In fact, many of us will want to be alerted when an app even desires to be suspended.  Hence, this option needs to be upfront and easily controlled.  Perhaps, you're hearing this for the first time (from me), but it certainly won't be the last time.  And if this is not addressed, it will become yet another excuse for millions of users to either abandon Windows altogether, or find some third-party "app" to make it obey our every wish and command.

    All metro apps are sandboxed. Plus malwares don't needs the apps to be suspended to spy you, they can do it fine when you are running the apps (a bit like Google Chrome).

    I don't see why you want to know when an application gets suspended. All applications are being halt when put in the background. If they don't get half in less than 5s, the system kills it. So all metro apps are using this system.

    I think you are just being paranoid here.

    2012年3月18日 23:13
  • All metro apps are sandboxed. Plus malwares don't needs the apps to be suspended to spy you, they can do it fine when you are running the apps (a bit like Google Chrome).

    I don't see why you want to know when an application gets suspended. All applications are being halt when put in the background. If they don't get half in less than 5s, the system kills it. So all metro apps are using this system.

    I think you are just being paranoid here.

    Whether MS likes or not, the history of malware and EVERYONE's failure to block them is sufficient reason for many of us to be paranoid about such things.  Security, however, is only one one reason why we will prefer this option.  Noel and others in this topic-thread have given you several others.

    FWIW, you're absolutely correct about foreground window security.  This however is beside the point I made.

    2012年3月18日 23:36
  • We're not Johns, Jerrys, Gerrys, Joes, Jessys, or Jobs...  I don't see many Noels or Noëls online, and when I see someone with my name sound like a daft ass, it pisses me to my core.  We're rare so please think before you post.

    You're humour isn't taken as such, because there is no basis for others "being in on it".  It's like those folks that speak half a sentence in their head before they blurt out the other half, and then wonder why what they just said made no sense to you.

    I thought of messaging you privately, but decided that you deserved a little public scolding because we have the same name.

    Noël Robichaud (that's pronounce No L   not Nole)

    2012年8月27日 10:59
  • Speaking of blurting out stuff that's out-of-context!

    I take it you don't agree with something I've said, No-L.  That's your privilege, though (having just re-read all my posts here) I can't see anything that was or is wrong, and I stand by it.  Regarding humor, well, it's a great tool and it's just too bad for those who might not "get it".

    Would you care to let us in on just what specifically you're scolding me for, No-L?  Maybe you could quote some text?

    Thanks.  :)

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年8月27日 14:07
  • It's not out of context... but rather exactly to point.  There is no basis for my post, nor could it be read as blatant sarcasm.  I wasn't bothered by anything you said; nor was I really scolding you.   I did, however, demonstrate how a post with a stated opinion, targeting someone that others have targeted, following suit by making absurd comments, identifying ZERO evidence to support what said target was blamed for.

    The real problem with this type of forum, contrary to its named URL of social.technet..... is not a true Social Forum!  No need for the snickering or bad behaviour or humour for the most part when replying to folks you may not know, in a "support" forum.

    I do apologize Noel, I didn't mean you any harm.  I really didn't.  Just making a point to those that so jumped on you for what I saw as nothing.

    Please accept my apology, Noel?

    2012年8月27日 20:40
  • If, this thread is, still, about the OP... A, really, nice way to approach it is to have open, active APPs sitting on the APP Bar (Top-Lt Edge); there, each one, via Rt Clk, offers CLOSE.

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com





    • 已建议为答案 Drew1903 2012年8月27日 23:30
    • 已编辑 Drew1903 2012年8月28日 0:12
    2012年8月27日 23:29
  • Point well made, No-L, and absolutely no need for an apology. 

    Rest assured I have a thick skin and nothing any of my critics have said, nor what you said, bothers me in the least.  Unlike some, I have plenty of experience to back up what I say, and I'm the first to say when I don't know something.  I'm not embarrassed in the least to post here, I don't have the best computer on the planet, and yep, now again I'll even let an opinion fly too...  Though I might tend to hold back more than some.  ;-)

    Nice to meet someone else who shares my name.  Without fail the Noels I've seen around here have been helpful, as I sense you will be as well.  Happy posting!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks: 

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    2012年8月27日 23:54
  • Drew - just a minor formatting comment:  A few less commas could go a long way to making your thoughts more readable.  My mother (rest her blessed soul) once told me to avoid using commas unless absolutely necessary.  Sometimes I even heed her advice.

    Is this APP Bar you speak of already a part of Windows 8 (keeping in mind I use the UI Formerly Known As Metro exactly NONE)?  Or something you're thinking could help?  If the latter are we just re-inventing the desktop one feature at a time?

    I suppose I should re-enable UAC for a while and see what's new in UIFKAM land so I don't fall behind in understanding what people are talking about.  :-)

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    • 已编辑 Noel Carboni 2012年8月28日 0:04 typo correction
    2012年8月28日 0:02
  • Sorry if more commas than need be.

    Anyway, yes, it is part of the OS by default.  Fire up an APP, say Weather, then go fire another, say Calendar.  Run cursor to top-left corner & down the left edge.  Any active APPs will be there, to be selected or via a Rt Clk, CLOSEd.  When you go to one whilst on Desktop, Desktop will become an item on said Bar, too & you can go from one thing to another or close something (there).

    I love this, use it all the time; pretty much the only way I close APPs.  Quick, easy & precise.

    Drew MS Partner / MS Beta Tester / Pres. Computer Issues Pres. Computer Issues www.drewsci.com


    • 已编辑 Drew1903 2012年8月28日 6:28
    2012年8月28日 0:11