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New Start menu is slowing me down in Server 8

    General discussion

  • Microsoft have taken quite a bold move with the Start menu, taking away the old start button and just having the metro Start menu.

    I have been playing with Windows Server 8 and Windows 8 consumer preview, there are some very nice features and on the whole i think they have done a nice job.

    The only thing that keeps bugging me is the start menu! I can deal with it in Windows 8 although it does slow me down loading that full screen and it can get annoying when your working.

    On Windows Server 8 on the other hand it is very very annoying, Microsoft NEED to add an option to turn it off and have the old start menu, at the moment I am just using it on local servers but I can see trying to use it over RDP to remote customer being a nightmare!

    I am sure im not the only one thats wants the option to turn off metro and have the old start in Windows Server 8, lets face it, it doesnt do anything special in Server 8. I can understand the use for it in Windows 8 for end users but even that could do with the option to turn it off!

    At the moment I feel its just slowing me down and trying to get the mouse down in the bottom left of the screen just to get the start menu 


    Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:37 PM

All replies

  •  Hi

    Thanks for your feedback. I will send your feature request to our internal department. They will evaluate the feasibility, but we cannot be sure if this feature can be added in the future version of Windows 8.

    Regards,


    Arthur Li

    TechNet Community Support

    Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:04 AM
  • Related to this is the lack of a "shut down" button on the start screen.
    Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:14 AM
  • I have to agree, this whole direction towards touch screen devices doesn't make sense. It's a great option, but my home PC relies on a mouse and keyboard and I don't ever plan on using my home computer or especially a server computer on a touch screen. I'll stick to the speed and accuracy of the mouse and keyboard. While it might be a great addition to the new OS, it should not be the only option. Navigating for my installed applications in this new Start menu is a disaster. It's a complete cluttered mess and I can't find a damn thing. Half the time I have to look in my program files folder to locate my apps and launch it from the root location of installation. That's pretty bad. Things were SO much more organized with the old Start menu structure. It has to come back or I'm sure a lot of IT will stick with 2008 R2 and skip this upgrade. But what do I know.

    P.S. I'd like some Streaming Media Services too.

    Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:55 AM
  • this may not be a Microsoft genunie solution seeing there is no windows 7 package for rdp 6.2.8250 yet but,

    i have grabbed the files from windows 8 mstsc and they works just fine on winows 7 :).

    had the same problem :)... 

    on a vaild windows 8 machine:

    create a new folder for files someone usb drive is a good palce, 
    inside this new folder make a folder called en-us and wbem

    inside wbem create a folder called en-US (its important u have US captilized)

    open Driveroot:\system32\

    copy mstsc.exe,mstscav.dll in to the new folder on the usb

    copy mstsc.exe.mui and mstscax.dll.mui from Driveroot:\system32\en-us to new folder\en-us

    copy mstsc.mof and mstscax.mof from driveroot:\system32\wbem\ to new folder\wbem\

    copy mstsc.mfl and mstscax.mof from driveroot:\system32\wbem\en-US\ to new folder\wbem\en-US

    and u should be good to go.



    • Edited by dw5304 Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:28 PM
    Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:44 PM
  • On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:44:21 +0000, dw5304 wrote:

    i have?grabbed?the files from windows 8 mstsc and they works just fine on winows 7 :).

    had the same problem :)...?

    download here <https://www.dc414.org/2012/03/rdp-6-2-8250-for-windows-7/>

    Apparently you didn't read the EULA. You're not allowed to distribute files
    from Windows to others.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Programming just with goto's is like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

    Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:53 PM
  • Hi, folks,

    I hope this "survival guide" for ITPros about how to navigate the Metro style UI in Windows Server 8 will help.

    Common Management Tasks and Navigation in Windows Server "8" Beta

    Enjoy!

    Gaby,
    Technical writer, Windows Server

    Friday, March 16, 2012 12:18 AM
  • Thanks for the reply Gaby but its not really a survival guide we need.

    Windows 8 and Windows 8 Server need the option to turn off Metro all together, even after a week of having several virtual test machines with windows 8 server beta installed I am getting really frustrated with the metro UI on Windows 8 Server.

    The team and I managed quite a few servers all over the country and not all customers have fast internet connection I can just see the metro UI slowing down the whole experience, not to mention for RDS users.

    One of our customers have over 100 users on RDS server and with the amount they need the start menu I can only imagine the amount of complaints we are going to receive about the metro UI.

    I really cant see the professional world liking the metro UI at all not just for Windows Server 8 but for Windows 8 as well, you cant make such a dramatic change and not have the option to have the classic start menu.

    I can see the metro UI having quite an affect on productivity when users are constantly bringing up the metro screen and an impact on IT departments for support and different server configurations to make it quicker for users.

    Friday, March 16, 2012 7:36 PM
  • Windows Server 8 Metro UI: Epic Fail.
    Friday, March 16, 2012 11:18 PM
  • I couldn't agree more. I spent a few hours using the Metro UI trying to give it a chance but it was almost like a barricade to me preventing me from getting to the real menu system. I'm an IT admin for goodness sake - I OWN a keyboard and a mouse - I'm not trying to administer a SERVER from a phone.

    Just give us an option - Metro UI because we are rebels and like to play with new things and the option for a standard Start menu because we have work to do and have clients who depend on us to solve their problems quickly. Don't dump the Metro UI - I'm sure someone needs to keep a their job because they staked their career on that atrocity but also give us a quick setting in the control panel that disables the metro UI and makes Windows server serviceable again.

    The only half-a$$ed solution I could easily implement was to pin the actual start menu folder to the task bar.   I'm going to need a 3 icon deep task bar as I've begun loading it with shortcuts so I don't have to be slowed down by the metro UI - I can't believe how much the metro UI inhibits administrators from getting actual work done.  I can hear the comic book collector in the Simpson's saying "worst menuing system - ever"

    • Edited by boe_d Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:54 PM
    Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:50 PM
  • They did so well on the OS that its such a shame that they could dump this UI on us.

    Its such a fail that it feels like I'm being punked trying to use this garbage navigation in a VM WS window.

    Its obvious Microsoft's Server UI team does not actually administer computers for a living.

    Worse than Windows 3.1.

    At least there I had some quick options to actually getting work done.

    Unbelievable.

    Fire the Metro UI team please.

    Sorry.

    Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:28 AM
  • Consider using the new Server Core and Minimal Server Interface functionality that we have been working on, and manage your server from the command line and remotely rather than the Server Graphical Shell. We've just released a blog article detailing it.

    Building an Optimized Private Cloud using Windows Server “8” Server Core

    Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:28 PM
  • Real Admins don't need UI.

    Seriously, I think theoretically Metro could work very well in certain scenarios. I think the current implementation on the server is rushed or is not there yet.  Active tiles, giving me quick status on my various objects / applications would be cool and very effective. The current implementation feels like you just hid the start menu and you just placed the icons you couldn't logically place in server manager on the desktop. That's not cool nor effective.

    Give us some well developed apps and metro could be really awsome on a server. I disagree with people saying that admins don't use or don't need to use their phones or tablets or whatever giant screens or even table computers they might have in the datacenter.

    I can see an admin being called or getting paged because a service is down, and all they have to do in most cases is restart or shuffle some things around until they have time to investigate. So a touch capable device with the right app can be a very effective tool in the datacenter as well. Sure you're not going to configure the server from a touch device but there are situations where you wish you could simply pull out the phone and make a problem temporarily go away.

    So metro can work and is a welcome addition, but the current implementation does feel like it's getting in the way. On the other hand it seem like you can do almost anything from server manager so, suck it up and provide some constructive feedback instead of bitching. After all you're one of the few admins that do use a Graphical UI I can't believe that you're complaining about Microsoft trying to pamper you even more.

    Thursday, March 22, 2012 1:54 AM
  • Real race car drivers don't need a steering wheel.
    Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:28 PM
  • I think the one thing that bothers me about the start menu (besides the nauseating colors) is that there are no folders. Clicking All Apps is a serious nightmare of horrible design. Ugh.

    If anyone actually does listen to my complaints, I'm sure they think somehow I'm the one who's wrong about this. I'm starting to get a little worried about my future as a MS developer. 

    Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:47 PM
  • Please - PLEASE- PUHLEEASE bring back the real start menu.   While metro might be nice for tablets it is unpleasant for workstations and servers - like using only a keyboard and no mouse in Windows.   Would it be so hard to let the user decide if they want metro on install or go to the control panel to change to a real start menu after it is installed?   The default folder options are silly but at least you let us change them after install.

    Or if you are so sure Metro will be preferred sell Windows 8 Metro Edition and Windows 8 Start Edition - I'm willing to bet Windows 8 Start Edition will outsell Windows 8 ME by a factor of 10 to 1.

    • Edited by boe_d Friday, March 30, 2012 2:12 PM
    Friday, March 30, 2012 2:07 PM
  • The Start Menu is no longer needed.

    See this awesome article here:

    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh831491.aspx

    Friday, March 30, 2012 7:16 PM
  • Hi,

    Just to throw my couple of pence worth in, we've been testing Windows Server 8 against our products this last week and have a few comments on Metro...

    • All applications is unusable without a proper folder stucture
    • Wallpapers, Screensavers and "Colour and Appearance" are removed to the bare minimum on Server (fine), so it seems strange you then get Metro.
    • The new server manager is hard to use on low res (for example 1280 x 800) so will probably be pretty dire on a small data center rack monitor.
    • Metro is paper thin, any useful tasks just launch the original UI (for example changing the computer properties to join it to a domain etc) so hardly seems worth implementing

      Not related to Metro but I've started now... :-)
    • Ribbon in Explorer, that's ok - odd that "Stop Sharing" is always available even when folders aren't shared
    • NTFS permissions can now be changed without having the extra step of clicking "Edit" - it would be nice to be able to right click the listview of permissions for a context menu



    Dave
    CENTREL Solutions
    Automated Network Documentation


    David Homer

    Thursday, April 05, 2012 6:01 PM
    • NTFS permissions can now be changed without having the extra step of clicking "Edit" - it would be nice to be able to right click the listview of permissions for a context menu
    Nice suggestion.

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties or guarantees and confers no rights.

    Most of the downtime's are caused because of SysAdmin's curiosity ! - Santosh

    Thursday, April 05, 2012 6:28 PM
  • Agreed! Agreed! Agreed! The touch screen option should be exclusive to workstations and mobile devices and should feature the ability to disable and "fall back" to the classic start menu (or some useful variation thereof) as stated repeatedly by others.
    Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:00 PM
  • I need to chime in on this one also.....

    I can easily see how Metro can help when I am off-site and working through my 3G tablet.  Having to constantly zoom to click on little buttons and such can be an exercise in patience.  I welcome it for this situation.

    Problem is this situation is less than 1/2 of a percent of my "work load", the rest of the time I am at my desk, in my datacenter or VPN'd in from my laptop.  In that situation I want to do things the fastest, most reliable and easiest way possible.  While using familiar tools that I don't have to keep a cheat sheet for what rendition is currently available.  That means keyboard, mouse and GUI.  I'm sorry, touch pads are a poor substitute for a mouse for speed and accuracy.  If a touch pad was equal to a mouse we wouldn't be having this discussion because there would be no need to re-design the GUI :)

    Now comes the really fun part...  I work for a school district and I am the only full-time admin for our ~115 servers; budgets and all that have eliminated any chance of a 2nd person.  My "backup" admin spend only a couple of hours a week trying to learn and keep up with everything going on so that they have a chance to fix things should I be out of communications.  How am I going to get someone else even remotely competent on an alien environment, with a non-intuitive interface?  Don't even say "Powershell"; it simply doesn't work for non-experts.  Extremely powerful, worthless for a part-time admin.

    There is no intelligent reason to dispose of the Start menu and related organization.  There is no intelligent reason to force users to use a GUI that hinders productivity in daily tasks while they use methods that they have used for a long time.

    Every other version of Windows has had the option of using the "old" GUI in place of the new one, give us that option back for this OS.  You will have happier customers and fewer mistakes due to mis-comprehensions due to the interface.

    Friday, April 13, 2012 3:51 PM
  • Thanks for the feedback.

    @Kevin, how are you managing your ~115 servers today?

    Friday, April 13, 2012 5:46 PM
  • Agreed! Agreed! Agreed! The touch screen option should be exclusive to workstations and mobile devices and should feature the ability to disable and "fall back" to the classic start menu (or some useful variation thereof) as stated repeatedly by others.

    Frankly - I find the metro UI unpleasant on the workstation as well.   MS screwed the pooch by alienating their customers.   Nothing wrong with offering a metro UI but I honestly believe over 95% of my customers will prefer the classic start menu even if 100% of them had a touch screen which about .05% of them have.  
    Sunday, April 15, 2012 4:02 PM
  • Yes, agreed also here.

    I'm a big Microsoft fan and like what there doing. I've had a Windows Phone, liked it too. But the good thing of WP was that there was no other user interface. If you needed some program, you just browse through the list of programs. With Server 8 you can no longer browse, you have to type in the first characters of the program. That slows you down and frustrates a lot. What was the name of that particular application or setting? If you can browse, you find it a lot quicker.

    Take e.g. logging off. In 2008 R2 you click start>log off. In 8, you have to move your mouse to the upper right screen (if you figured this out finally...), wait until the right bar comes in (if you move your mouse too far away, you have to start over) and then klik on that new ugly windows logo, go again to the upper right corner and klik on the user and then click sign out. pfff... does that really need to be so hard??

    And if Microsoft wants to force us Metro, than do it in the Windows Phone 7 way. Loose the desktop and you would never need the normal user interface. The way Microsoft has implemented Metro now it looks and handles like there are two operating systems running, Metro and 2008R2.

    It makes me crazy searching for things. I like the new possibiltities and functions they implemented in Server and Windows 8, but the way it is now done makes me going back to 2008R2 and I think a lot of companies think the same.

    I showed it to a colleague, the consumer preview, and he also finds it really annoying, them you see Metro, and then there is the old desktop again, but without start. You're in IE 10, need notepad so you have to type notepad because you cannot browse to notepad. And is it called notepad of in Dutch Kladblok? There's the frustrating cannot search again... Whenever you do find notepad, it opens on the old desktop! Then you want to go back to IE, but how?? Oh, press the Windows key... and you're back in Metro again!

    Also you have to be learned how to use the gestures because there not as easy as in WP7. I think the learning curve is for a normal customer too high.

    Loose Metro on a server and loose the normal desktop on the client. Maybe then it can work. Otherwise, I agree: epic fail.

    Sorry, but I needed to loose some frustrations....
    Monday, April 16, 2012 11:59 AM
  • Windows Server 8 Metro UI: Epic Fail.
    +1
    Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:33 PM
  • On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:44:21 +0000, dw5304 wrote:

    i have?grabbed?the files from windows 8 mstsc and they works just fine on winows 7 :).

    had the same problem :)...?

    download here <https://www.dc414.org/2012/03/rdp-6-2-8250-for-windows-7/>

    Apparently you didn't read the EULA. You're not allowed to distribute files
    from Windows to others.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Programming just with goto's is like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

    Paul - WOW !!! Thanks for the ETHICS lesson. Brilliant.

    That guy has innovated something new which MS couldn't provide to public yet and instead of some good words what he gets is lessons on EULA, how wonderful ?

    I have personally seen, MS support folks suggesting replacement of files from one OS to another when OS is screwed UP very badly. In such situations, I believe EULA won't be applicable to them !!!

    Even if you browse Technet Server forums, you will find people have been suggested to replace files from New OS to old OS to fix the problems, that too suggestions were from Moderators, MVPs (excluding you, because you have READ EULA, I am sure you won't do that), MSFTs !!!

    If a layman does that, he gets lessons, how thoughtful ?


    Thanks, Being Human

    Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:57 PM
  • On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:57:11 +0000, Being Human wrote:

    Even if you browse Technet Server forums, you will find people have been suggested to replace files from New OS to old OS to fix the problems, that too suggestions were from Moderators, MVPs (excluding you, because you have READ EULA, I am sure you won't do that), MSFTs !!!

    There is a very big difference between suggesting someone take binaries
    from one version of an OS and use them in another and actually making those
    binaries available for download on a non-MSFT web site.

    If you don't get the difference between the two actions then we've really
    got nothing further to discuss.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    In computer science, we stand on each other's feet.  -- Brian Reid

    Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:59 PM
  • I too find the new start button (or lack thereof) a little annoying. I have a HP Slate with Windows 7 pro, and when I use RDP the area where you are supposed to drag your mouse to pull it up is not accessible. I keep clicking on the shortcut in the left position in the quick launch (I guess I have fat fingers). So that is a DOA feature. It also takes multiple tries to get the ribbon that holds the search and power button to display. I did learn if I press on the desktop and then drag to the lower or upper right it will display the ribbon, but this does not work when I try this for the start button. However this takes multiple tries. When I finally got the start menu up by using the ribbon that has the search and power button on my slate the ability to scroll right to get to tiles that is off screen with touch does not work. It pulls up a search in Apps looking for “LL”, I’m not sure what that is all about because I have no physical keyboard connected.

    I work for a school district with 77 schools, and all of the cafeterias require using server software to run our POS software. All of our site cafeteria managers also use the server as their workstations so to us a UI that is user friendly is important, and as of now it is not. They will have no need use the Metro interface, but a usable start button would be beneficial. I foresee getting phone calls from 77 angry lunch ladies wondering how to log off or find programs that are not on their desktop, and no one wants a mad lunch lady.

    Here is my wish list. First off, an icon on the task bar to bring up the start menu, or at least the means to put one there would be nice. In the Metro interface it would be nice to have a back button or an equivalent to get back to the start area with one touch after you do a search or pull up a menu. I also would like to be able to dock the search ribbon with the ability to move it to the left, top, or bottom of the screen. There is a lot of dead space in the Metro interface so docking it should not be a problem, by default it would be more useful to me on the left. I do not really like having to mouse back and forth across a 23 inch screen on my desktop to click on two different UIs or ribbons. I also notice that there is no clock in the Metro UI, maybe add it to the docked search ribbon. I also like adding tool bars to the desktop taskbar, and on the tablet I have to push the little arrows to have the dropdown come up, and you make it so if I push the title of the toolbar it does the drop down.

    About 99 percent of the time when I’m in a server it is remotely from a desktop, and I can see a benefit in using a tablet when I am at a remote site, and I can see using touch can help.

    Saturday, April 21, 2012 12:42 AM
  • I have been running Windows 8 on my laptop since the Dev Preview, in the Dev Preview I disabled Metro, not with the Beta I have no choice.

    I can say that in the corporate world there will not be a large uptake of Windows 8, part of the reason so many companies have not upgraded office to 2007/2010 is because of the ribbon and the re-training required for their staff, Windows 8 is going to be in the same boat, and unfortunately will become Windows Vista 2 if the option to disable the Metro start screen and return to the Start menu is no made available as an option.  I cannot see this having a big uptake in the corporate world, and I can see a lot of home users will not upgrade either.  This is a bad move Microsoft, and will alienate customers.

    Microsoft has traditionally been about pro choice, look at how you could always revert to the classic start menu with previous versions of Windows, but Microsoft has it wrong with Windows 8 and Metro.  It looks like a great tablet interface, but it is a horrible interface for use with a mouse and keyboard.  Usually it is Apple that pulls these types of moves, but with the updates to OSX bringing in some functionality of IOS, at least Apple did not force their users to use that interface if they did not want to.

    With Windows Server 8, this is a horrible horrible interface, the whole idea of server is to make the interface minimal, yet we are forced to use Metro.  It is slow, especially running in a virtual machine, it is very difficulty to pull up the Metro start screen on a VM window, trying to find that 1/1000th of a pixel in the bottom left hand corner to bring up Metro to launch an app is extremely frustrating, and then once you do get Metro up trying to find the app you want is a right PITA.

    Trying to shutdown, restart or logoff has going from a simple 2 or 3 click process, to a frustrating experience trying to locate the other 1/1,000,000th pixel locater somewhere in the nether region on the top right of the screen, and then locate the correct icon to go a slide out menu, to select power, to finally shut down the machine; try this with a multi monitor setup, and you quickly find your mouse bouncing between the two screens looking for that tiny tiny sweet spot.

    So far I have been less than impressed with the interface on both server and workstation versions of Windows 8.

    On a positive note, the underlying OS is quite nice, other interface changes such as Explorer and Task Manager are awesome, Hyper-V is very very nice, especially now that it is available on Workstation, Sever Manager is awesome too.

    All Microsoft has to do to have a hit operating system on their hands is give the end user a choice, Metro Start Screen or the Windows 7 Style Start Menu.

    Sally
    • Edited by SallyAU Monday, April 30, 2012 12:21 AM
    Monday, April 30, 2012 12:18 AM
  • The single most, boneheaded thing Microsoft has ever done, since the release of Windows for Workgroups 3.1, is forcing anyone to use the MetroUI as part of Windows 8. The desktop experience is a joke. The learning curve and time/resources to teach support personal alone, will drive up TCO, and reduce ROI. Does Microsoft really believe, that we will all be administratively controlling servers, yes, servers from Windows mobile phones? You have got to be kidding! We, will not be moving to Windows 8 server for years, if not decades, if Microsoft persists with this new interface requirement. We are a fortune 50 firm, with a global footprint, and have 10,000s of servers, running Windows 2003/2008, even more counting RedHat Linux 5/6 based systems. At this point, our growing frustration with the MetroUI cannot be understated or qualified as anything but disgust and contempt.  And as for core, seriously? If we wanted core, we would standardize on Linux, and completely retired Windows, at least then, we would have less of a learning curve, since most of our operational and support teams are cross platform and we would be able to significantly reduce our TCO and improve our ROI, by supporting only one enterprise mid-range server OS standard, and one such OS that has remained effectively consistent for decades.  The posts in the this thread have one consistent theme, resistance to the GUI flavor of the latest release mindset that Microsoft seems to be unable to resist. Microsoft, a new GUI every few years may fool some of the end-users some of the time, but frankly, enterprise customers, we, are more than tired of this foolishness. I suspect this comment will be banned in 20 seconds.


    • Edited by sdecker Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:10 AM
    Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:05 AM
  • The single most, boneheaded thing Microsoft has ever done, since the release of Windows for Workgroups 3.1, is forcing anyone to use the MetroUI as part of Windows 8. The desktop experience is a joke. The learning curve and time/resources to teach support personal alone, will drive up TCO, and reduce ROI. Does Microsoft really believe, that we will all be administratively controlling servers, yes, servers from Windows mobile phones? You have got to be kidding! We, will not be moving to Windows 8 server for years, if not decades, if Microsoft persists with this new interface requirement. We are a fortune 50 firm, with a global footprint, and have 10,000s of servers, running Windows 2003/2008, even more counting RedHat Linux 5/6 based systems. At this point, our growing frustration with the MetroUI cannot be understated or qualified as anything but disgust and contempt.  And as for core, seriously? If we wanted core, we would standardize on Linux, and completely retired Windows, at least then, we would have less of a learning curve, since most of our operational and support teams are cross platform and we would be able to significantly reduce our TCO and improve our ROI, by supporting only one enterprise mid-range server OS standard, and one such OS that has remained effectively consistent for decades.  The posts in the this thread have one consistent theme, resistance to the GUI flavor of the latest release mindset that Microsoft seems to be unable to resist. Microsoft, a new GUI every few years may fool some of the end-users some of the time, but frankly, enterprise customers, we, are more than tired of this foolishness. I suspect this comment will be banned in 20 seconds.


    But don't you know that all Windows 8 Server installs will be on tablets?  That's why Metro is on server os's.  ;)

    Prediction(?):

      It was discovered today that members of the anarchist group Chaos had infiltrated the water supply to the Microsoft campus and had been lacing it with LSD (Lysergic acid diethylamide).   Reports are uncertain, but authorities say this had been going on for many months.    Although the dose per person was small, long term exposure resulted in several puzzling (at least until now) actions my Microsoft employees.  Probably the most damage done was when Microsoft came out with Windows 8 designed for a tablet, and carried this abomination to include their server OS line.

      Authorities are still trying to identify the members of Chaos.  Meanwhile, Bill Gates has returned to the helm at Microsoft in an attempt to remedy the situation and hopefully reverse the crash in Microsoft stock value as well as the mass customer exodus.

      In related news Red Hat posted it's biggest earnings ever, credited to the nearly complete move of Fortune 500 companies from Microsoft Windows to Linux.

    Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:27 PM
  • Exactly, I know its premature and I AM CERTAIN this will be fixed. No way in hell is MS letting the start menu go down the drain.

    The current "Metro Beta Menu" is at a min: Mass confusion, Unorganized, and totally not warranted for Pros. This OS was made for children.

    I tell my kids go clean your room. Now Microsoft must be told the same... Please MACRO Manage your OS!

    Yes Yes I could relearn your new way...but WHY?

    Are you paying me? Time is money and big changes we don't like.

    Windows Server 8 and Windows 8 consumer must be fixed.

    I guarantee Microsoft will lose market share (won't come back) if they dare release these OS without the start menu.

    Please someone lose the attitude and get back in that dark room and fix this!

    m

    Saturday, May 05, 2012 5:53 PM
  • the whole reason i originality made the download available is because mstf hasn't.

    there are instructions on how to do it your self, and if they wanted to save some time they used to be able to download them.... 

    I dont see what the issue is to be honest, I wanted a way of getting remote support form windows 7 for testing server 2012, win8 and figured seeing i have already figured out what was needed why not share it with other people?

    rant done, 

    after playing with server 2012 and win 8 i now welcome metro. Takes about two - three weeks before u can graps the full concept.

    Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:36 PM
  • Come on, how long wil it take you guys to notice?

    Metro is optimised for a touchscreen phone, maybe good on a touchscreen PC (I've not tried it), obviously it is dreadful for a server, completely awful, think about administering servers from iLO, DRAC, etc you are never going to have a touchscreen. Microsoft know this, they know this Metro is just no good for servers, they know what they are doing. What is the other thing the are trying to push apart for Metro (for phones), yes Core !!

    Metro for phones and touchscreen PC, Core for servers. There is no need to get a start button, they don't want you to use a GUI on a server (why else would the GUI supplied be so inapropriate!!!)

    Sorry guys, forget Metro and learn core, take a deep breath and go for it, hey I'm learning again too, remember the "good old days" (maybe this is where being an old timer shows) when MS's flagships OSs were DOS and XENIX?  what goes around comes around...

    Good luck, enjoy.

    Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:28 PM
  • Interesting. It seems that Microsoft is falling into the trap that Linux has of providing exceptionally cute simplified user interfaces and installers at one end of the spectrum but the minute any real work needs to be done they turn around and shake their head at you for not going directly to the command line scripting.

    I think Microsoft really need to drop this bipolar approach and concentrate on the middle ground where they are at their best writing solid user interface based tools that allow a range of technical skills to do their job quickly. Corresponding command line tools should be available but not as an alternative to a functional UI.

    Dave

    CENTREL Solutions
    Network Audit and Documentation


    David Homer

    Monday, May 28, 2012 9:12 AM
  • I agree with you David, however, I would like to learn more about the powershell abilites. But again the reason that I really like running he MS server OS is because of the ease of use. i didnt like the windows 7 really until I got to know it, I do like that they put in the ability to use a kind of start button.

    Patrick Clark

    Monday, June 04, 2012 1:58 PM
  • I agree there should be an option to remove it on server 2012 but so far I have to say, it's not been a big issue for me.  I was out on a 3G modem today connecting back to my lab and performance was more than acceptable.  I'm also getting used to the mechanics, one word of advice is change your RDP connection to execute key presses on the remote machine, using standard windows shortcuts really help.

    Plus, when pressing the windows key on your keyboard start typing straight away to look for items on the start screen - as we know, mouse navigation is not optimal!

    - Ed

    Monday, June 04, 2012 8:19 PM
  • i been hoping and thinking Microsoft would get rid of the metro start thinking if enough people would complain or "rant" that Microsoft would do get rid of it. Atleast have that option to remove. I rather get rid of it. Tablets = great. Touch laptops = great. Desktop with or without touch = terrible and not too good. I really hope Micrsoft will do as you said and add that option. Metro tablets is great for tablets but not destops. First time in my young 'tech' life that i really dislike Windows and i am a Windows fan. Not this time. Mac would be better.
    Thursday, June 07, 2012 2:21 AM
  • I am very surprised and dissapointed how Microsoft have become so ignorant to customer feedback on the Metro interface.

    I don't like Metro in Windows 8 because it slows me down when I am working, but forget that for a sec because this is about the server.

    No one wants Metro in Server 2012 but Microsoft, and those who actually defend it can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to why it's there. The only argument I see and hear (which isn't an argument) is to use powershell and remote management capabilities (love powershell btw). And yes I will use those features, but that doesn't explain why Metro is there in the first place.

    So please tell me, what is Metro doing in a SERVER operation system, and seriously how hard can it be to add a feature to turn it off.

    ...from a loyal customer who migrated from vmware to hyper-v, lotus notes to Exchange, Ayaya to Lync and System Center, Forefront, Dynamics CRM and soon hopefully Dynamics AX.



    • Edited by mbe-dk Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:27 PM
    Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM
  • If you are going to use PowerShell and remote management, what difference does it make if there is no start menu on your server? Wouldn't you rather just uninstall the UI completely at that point? We do have a feature to turn off the Metro style UI - it's called the Minimal Server Interface. You can uninstall the entire explorer shell and IE and still use Server Manager, PowerShell, and the command prompt. Metro is there so your remote desktop (RDSH) users have parity with Windows 8 client editions when they are connected.

    Disclaimer: The above is my own personal opinion and is not necessarily that of Microsoft.

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:05 PM
  • If you are going to use PowerShell and remote management, what difference does it make if there is no start menu on your server? Wouldn't you rather just uninstall the UI completely at that point? We do have a feature to turn off the Metro style UI - it's called the Minimal Server Interface. You can uninstall the entire explorer shell and IE and still use Server Manager, PowerShell, and the command prompt. Metro is there so your remote desktop (RDSH) users have parity with Windows 8 client editions when they are connected.

    Disclaimer: The above is my own personal opinion and is not necessarily that of Microsoft.

    I didn't say I would use powershell and remote management only, so it does make a difference. And I am not talking about server core, and that's not turning off Metro, that's removing the GUI all together.

    And let me get this straight, Metro is there because the server might be used as a Remote Desktop Service Host? Wow, just wow!

    What is that feature called in Server 2008 R2... "Windows Desktop Experience" and it is an optional feature.

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:47 PM
  • > And let me get this straight, Metro is there because the server might be used as a Remote Desktop Service Host? Wow, just wow!

    I don't know the real reason, since I am not part of the team that made that decision. I am sure a number of factors were considered including maintainability (e.g. having to maintain two separate shells vs. only one), security, and user experience consistency.

    > What is that feature called in Server 2008 R2... "Windows Desktop Experience" and it is an optional feature.

    The Metro style start screen is an optional feature as well. It's called Server Graphical Shell.

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:25 PM
  • And I am not talking about server core, and that's not turning off Metro, that's removing the GUI all together.

    I'm talking about Minimal Server Interface - not server core. You can do local graphical management with MMC and Server Manager and you can even add your own shortcuts to the Tools menu.

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:28 PM
  • Just throwing my 2 cents in.

    I can't believe this is the "RC" I'm on. Everything is basically still the same interface as 2008 R2, with this BULLSHIT Metro ontop of it all. So now to get to the tools that previously took a click or two now takes many times that, just to get to the same interface I had before anyway...

    My thoughts when using both Windows 8 and now Server 2012 have been:

    -Why in fuck would your 400 million (I think?) + Windows 7 DESKTOP users who use a MOUSE AND KEYBOARD EVER FUCKING WANT THIS? Why make a OS based around TOUCH when your customer base DO NOT USE TOUCH? Make a fucking Tablet OS and a Desktop OS. No one ever asked for this.

    -This feels completely like 2 different OS's just mashed together - definitely more on Windows 8 I'll admit. You go from desktop with taskbar to Metro UI over and over. It's completely unseamless, it leaves you looking for the start button every time. Then on Server 2012 you go from 2008 R2 Interface to this new 2012 bodgy Server Manager and back and forward constantly - Make things consistent.

    -Nothing is self explanatory. Give your Grandma an iPad - She'll work it out. Ask her to turn it off, to do a simple task - it will be NO ISSUE. Turn it off? You press the ONE OBVIOUS POWER BUTTON - BECAUSE IT'S A TABLET. Now, sit her infront of Windows 8/Server 2012, ask her to turn it off. People can't even find the fucking off button in your new OS. How is the guy who made this decision still fucking employed?

    If I was a MS shareholder I'd be out for blood at the moment, a lot of stupid, non listening, stubborn and ignorant people need to be fired at MS ASAP.

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:07 PM
  • It's f****** BS is what it is... and Microsoft won't even give any details why it's included in the OS. Oh and I read in the change from CP to RP that dual screen has been improved? I don't see any improvement, it's still crap to use on a dual screen setup.

    I am really sorry for all the partners, sales rep, account managers who have to convince customers to upgrade to an OS with this crap Metro on top. Good Luck with that.


    • Edited by mbe-dk Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:33 PM
    Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:30 PM
  • I would like to remind everyone about the way the iPad was received when it was announced. Between the time it was announced and a few weeks after its release, the iPad received overwhelming condemnation. The best thing that was said about it was "this will be a consumer device not meant for content creation of any sort".

    I would also like to point out that we have a Server 2008 machine that is used primarily for remoting into when people need access to files or when we want to demonstrate software to a potential client. So I can see why Microsoft would want Server 8 to have the same UI as Windows 8. 

    That being said.... If I installed Server 8 at the company I work for I don't think things would go well for me. I can't imagine teaching the people at the office to use it; and I definitely can't imagine using it to show off our software.

    For the past 16 years 9 months and 17 days I have been using the Start Button and Windows 7 / Server 2008 R2 are the best operating systems Microsoft has ever released. You do the math.

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 9:50 PM
  • Sally,

    Even worse than Bob?


    Tomás Mason

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:49 PM
  • Look, Guys, it doesn't do any good to complain when MS does something you don't like. For all of this century, MS has been operating under the corporate assumption that THEY KNOW BETTER THAN YOU what you need and how you should use. MS probably commited to Metro about 24 months ago and are way too far along to make a change now.

    Suck it up and live with it!

    That said, I don't like Metro and I rarely have it up in servers or workstations. I have mostly made it disappear by operating in Desktop mode with icons for the stuff I go to frequently - Explorer, ncpa.cpl, IE, et cetera. Most things are a little easier than some people think. for instance, Shutdown or Restart - pointer to lower right corner, Settings, Power, Shutdown or Restart. What I don't like is the extra clicking necessary over Win7 or S2008R2.

    Also, I administer all my servers (W8 included) using RDP from my Win7 workstation. Zero problems.


    Tomás Mason

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:02 PM
  • I agree.  I just loaded server 2012 release candidate.  using the server over RDP is brutal w/out a start menu.  I don't see it catching on as-is.

    I tried editing the group policy to show the old start menu but it doesn't seem to work.


    BarrySDCA

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:22 PM
  • Tomas is right.  MS will not change the Metro interface.  By the time an OS is made available to users it's cast is stone.  All the beta/rc releases are for is free (for Microsoft) debugging.

    Microsoft, I wish you well.  Keep in mind that at least this organization will be skipping Windows 8 for our desktops and servers.  We will use it for any tablets we may purchase sometime in the future (unless they're Ipads).

    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:15 PM
  • There is a software solution to this.  Use this:

    http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:18 PM
  • I often use the iTap RDP iPhone/iPad app to RDP to servers, to perform immediate tasks when I don't have access to a Windows PC. The iTap RDP app works very well, since it also supports RD Gateway connections to RDP.

    However, it is literally impossible to navigate to the tiny pixel area in the lower left corner to click to bring up the start menu on an iPad. You can only get within a few pixels before your finger moves off the touch screen. So you can't bring up the Start screen on the server. That's not very helpful if you actually want to do anything.

    I agree with the comments above. There needs to be a much larger taskbar button you can click to bring up the Start screen. There are too many scenarios where the assumptions on being able to move a mouse a tiny region to bring up the start screen just don't work.


    Monday, June 11, 2012 6:04 PM
  • MS needs to publish SHORT video tutorials for windows7/2008 users migrating to the new metro UI

    quick 1-2-3 how-to


    BarrySDCA

    Monday, June 11, 2012 7:01 PM
  • it is literally impossible to navigate to the tiny pixel area in the lower left corner to click to bring up the start menu on an iPad. You can only get within a few pixels before your finger moves off the touch screen. So you can't bring up the Start screen on the server. That's not very helpful if you actually want to do anything.

    When you are using a touch device, you can access the start screen by swiping in from the right border, then activating the Start charm.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 7:17 PM
  • I'm using an iPad, with iTap RDP software that emulates a mouse using the iPad's touchscreen. So the server's RDP session has no knowledge that I am using a touch device.

    So any kind of touch gestures don't work in this situation. I'm sure there are several other situations where a mouse is being emulated that cause similar issues.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 7:42 PM
  • Unfortunately, iTap needs to update their program to support Win8's updated RDP in this case.
    Monday, June 11, 2012 7:43 PM
  • It is probably true that iTap needs to update their software so as to better be able to target the extreme lower left corner.

    It would also be nice to be able to pass-through touch gestures to the RD server. However, iTap RDP uses gestures to control the client UI, so this may cause conflicts or confusion.

    However, the point that many people are making in this thread still holds. It is near lunacy that in order to start an application on a server, you have to click on a tiny target a few pixels in size, in an extreme corner of the desktop. This has problems in all sorts of scenarios: remote desktop in a window, a single-screen remote desktop from a multi-screen client, a Hyper-V window, a KVM/ILO window, a third-party RD client, etc. See also http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winserver8gen/thread/09fd97fa-5ce8-454f-8507-3dfaad5ae7e9

    Microsoft recognizes this per http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/21/enhancing-windows-8-for-multiple-monitors.aspx. However, not all the scenarios - particularly for administering a server using the GUI - are at all easy to use, with this tablet-focused UI decision on how users are able to access the start screen.



    Monday, June 11, 2012 10:23 PM
  • wow, pretty much quieted this debate for 6 days now. Interessting link and I downloaded it right after the RC and put it in the same folder...

    Thanks for the pointer.

    I must say supporting > 1000 'servers' that run 'applications' full-screen at startup that cannot be closed and the application runs in 4 or more monitors makes Metro a hazard.

    Just make it an optional 'Experience'.

    Maybe some will use it and some not.

    Me - never if I have the chance.


    • Edited by M Leary Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:10 PM
    Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:03 PM
  • I think that its more of people know that they arent going to win. Microsoft is known for doing this type of thing. I have had the debate with others recently that state why do you need a start button, well IT does change, but within the servers the OS should be standarized. Why would I want to use my ipad to access a server? Why would I want to use an IPAD if im a microsoft guy? I hate the tablet scene, its ruined the entire IT org's. IF you want to use your tablet then use it, limitations shouldnt be fixed in the OS and made by everyone else to just deal with it. If I want to use something portable, ill use my power laptop. I dont think that the tablets are as secure, arent as powerful, and we are letting them rule the market. Servers should be just that servers, if you cant use RDP to access it, or its slow, get off the tablet and use a power workstation, or hey logon to the server! I want my server admins to be IN country to do the admin, I dont want them out unless they are at home and they should be using secure vpn to access it. I dont want someone in a meeting in india admining the server when they arent watching what they are doing, pay attention to your IT. Bring the classic interface back Microsoft, if you want it on a mobile device fine, then use it as that. Otherwise leave the server OS as it is.

    Patrick Clark

    Monday, June 18, 2012 12:37 PM
  • Not so awesome! How are you ever going to remember all of those keyboard shortcuts? Or the new locations for all the commands that are needed.

    The Metro UI is awful, ugly, and unorganized. It isn't even alphabetized. When installing an app, everything is put on the Metro UI. Seriously? That just sucks. For desktops, that will be a disaster for packagers. The All Apps view? Forget it. Who can find anything on there? Sucks big time.

    Options for the Server 2008 style start menu are needed.

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 1:55 PM
  • I have no desire to become a developer/programmer. PowerShell sucks. VBScript sucks.

    I didn't really like the move to Windows either, but I adjusted. Now after 20 years they want to return to a command prompt - oops, not a command prompt, a PowerShell prompt with cryptic commands that are a mile long with dozens of parameters each?

    No thanks. Until a change is made, I'll be keeping my servers at 2008 R2 and my desktops at Windows 7. No way I'm putting this on my servers and desktops.

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:06 PM
  • I have no desire to become a developer/programmer. PowerShell sucks. VBScript sucks.

    I didn't really like the move to Windows either, but I adjusted. Now after 20 years they want to return to a command prompt - oops, not a command prompt, a PowerShell prompt with cryptic commands that are a mile long with dozens of parameters each?

    No thanks. Until a change is made, I'll be keeping my servers at 2008 R2 and my desktops at Windows 7. No way I'm putting this on my servers and desktops.

    Very True and Well Said.

    Don't be a prick ! Be reasonable and provide your feedback. Say something whether the suggestion was helpful or not, mark a reply as answer or click on to vote helpful if any suggestion really helps you, don't leave that choice to moderators, let the credit go to a contributor who has invested his precious time on your questions. Please be informed that, moderators are also humans and they also make mistakes ;-) Last but not the least, Unmark as answer if any post doesn't answer your question/s !!!

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:36 PM
  • iPads are toys and should be left in the toy box for the kids to play with at home. The Metro UI is the same - a toy interface that should be left to consumer PCs.

    Some people say to embrace the change. Well, not all change is good. Change for the sake of change is extremely bad. Improve on what is already there, bring in something new that is intuitive, or just improve the background processing, but don't remove the options right from the start. You'll never get anyone to change that way.

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:03 PM
  • The way to remove Metro is to switch to Server Core. We have received and -- believe me -- debated long and hard about the GUI issue here on the Product Team, but the matter remains that local GUI management (locally meaning using GUI on the server box) is just not the direction that Windows Server is taking in this release.

    If you want to take advantage of the hundreds of new features and groundbreaking technological improvements new to Windows Server 2012, you'll just have to absorb this "regression" in user interface as the cost of switching. While we'd prefer that you upgrade to Windows Server 2012 (of course!), you are also of course free to stay on Server 2008 R2 (or any OS you choose) as long as you like. Sorry to disappoint you :-(

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:21 PM
  • I'm sure it wont be long before some young software developer codes a better GUI (or at least a start button).  that will of course catch on and then MS will end up buying it just like sysinternals, and full circle we would have gone!  LOL

    Ben:   That metro UI is brutal over RDP.  Surely you can do better.  at the very least, put a button on the screen over RDP connections, instead of relying on an invisible 4x4 pixel area.  come on man get real


    BarrySDCA

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:47 PM
  • ??  Yet isn't the core issue most IT people are having with Win Server 2012 is the metro GUI interface?  I can understand the move towards managing servers remotely, as we've seen this capability increase with each release.  What doesn't make sense is to fully drop the current interface for a interface designed for a tablet.  From an outsider's perspective it looks like your Product Team became so enamored with their Ipads they decided everything should be an Ipad.  The tablet is a tool that is great for a consumer device.  It just isn't a server.

    Sorry to say it, but it's as if you came up with a new auto and put bicycle handlebars on it because bicycles are the current rage.

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:50 PM
  • Gentlemen,

    We need to live with the MS attitude, it's like " Use it or Lose it - choice your's".

    I am sure, after all these criticisms, MS wouldn't change a bit on Metro Interface ;-)


    Don't be a prick ! Be reasonable and provide your feedback. Say something whether the suggestion was helpful or not, mark a reply as answer or click on to vote helpful if any suggestion really helps you, don't leave that choice to moderators, let the credit go to a contributor who has invested his precious time on your questions. Please be informed that, moderators are also humans and they also make mistakes ;-) Last but not the least, Unmark as answer if any post doesn't answer your question/s !!!

    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:58 PM
  • This conversation is getting more useful :-)

    @BarrySDCA et. al. Take a look at the Tools menu in Server Manager. You can put .lnk files in a folder (and even set up sub-folders) and then those .lnk files show up as entries in Server Manager's tools menu. Here are instructions for configuring that: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj134147.aspx

    You certainly could use a 3rd party start button. Hopefully updating that won't require a reboot :-)

    RDP should see some improvements once you're using the latest version of the RDP client on all your PCs. I believe it's going to be made available downlevel as well (e.g. you can install it on Win7). The new RDP client provides support for charms so you don't need to rely on the 4x4 pixel area. However we would prefer if you did not manage your servers via RDP. Remote management is generally a better option.

    @Dennis - no it is not. We've also gotten tons of positive feedback from people saying how much they love the new PowerShell cmdlets and improvements to remote management. One, for example, had a custom-made program with dozens of RDP tabs, and whenever this admin needed to do something he had to pick the correct RDP tab and replicate the change there. Now he can target one or multiple servers with PowerShell much more efficiently. If anything, the biggest issue is that we don't have PowerShell cmdlets for everything yet. Even though we have 2300+ new commands, we do not have -- for example -- a command to manage local users (you can only manage AD users via PowerShell). The MMC does work remotely though. We're working on closing this gap and reaching true parity with the command line and GUI tools.

    I think the biggest thing that would be helpful to us right now is: What about remote (non-RDP) management does not work for you?

    Thanks for all the feedback!
    Ben



    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:02 PM
  • RE:  What about remote (non-RDP) management does not work for you?

    You are assuming I am trying to manage our own servers.  These are hosted hyper-v virtual machines belonging to subscribers all over the world, from a variety of operating systems and latency conditions.

    It's difficult for me to tell someone who wants to rent a hosted windows server that they need to update their client OS first.

    thanks will check out tools menu

    PS:  As it stands now, I don't see hosted 2012 servers catching on at all.

    PPS:  You all also need to take this seriously too:  http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winserver8gen/thread/ad8b3f66-70c5-403b-b68d-c9c8803058fa


    BarrySDCA



    • Edited by BarrySDCA Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:12 PM
    Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:09 PM
  • If I were configuring these hosted servers, I would set them up in Minimal Server Interface configuration. No Explorer, IE, or Metro but full local Server Manager and all of the MMC snap-ins and Server Manager configuration wizards are accessible right from the Tools menu, out of the box.

    Maybe pre-load the Web Platform Installer on the image and add that to the Tools menu as a bonus :-)

    Doesn't seem that bad to me... just IMO though.

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:49 AM
  • Ben,

    In a way, I feel sorry for you in that your job involves trying to make shit smell like roses.

    What I think you should be concentrating on is showing us why upgrading to W8 server will make our jobs easier (if such reasons exist?). Right now, I don't have any justification for making the case, to those who pay the bills, that W8 will provide a substantial ROI when we upgrade from S2008R2. I'm sure that MS hopes I'll believe this to be true, but, as of today, I couldn't justify the expenditure or the effort. Can you offer a case for changing my opinion?


    Tomás Mason

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:20 AM
  • If I were configuring these hosted servers, I would set them up in Minimal Server Interface configuration. No Explorer, IE, or Metro but full local Server Manager and all of the MMC snap-ins and Server Manager configuration wizards are accessible right from the Tools menu, out of the box.

    Maybe pre-load the Web Platform Installer on the image and add that to the Tools menu as a bonus :-)

    Doesn't seem that bad to me... just IMO though.

    ben you need to quit assuming you know what/why/how everyone uses their windows server.   almost all of our subscribers use IE, explorer, whole 9 yards.

    I was excited going in to offer windows 2012, but as of right now we have no plans to offer it given how it is.


    BarrySDCA

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 1:06 PM
  • @Barry

    IE and Explorer are still available. In fact, the experience over RDP is even better thanks to improvements in RemoteFX, such as native support for transmitting H.264 video and GPU remoting.

    @Tomás

    I must respectfully disagree. There are so many -- literally hundreds -- of engineering improvements in Win8/WS2012 that make me super excited about this release. The improvements in multi-machine management is huge (once you get over the learning cost of PowerShell). How does that not make your job easier? There are so many more improvements across the board -- disk deduplication, memory coalescing, better memory management, better distributed systems, ReFS, Storage Spaces, huge performance gains in IIS, improved security, Hyper-V, etc. The list goes on and on....

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:40 PM
  • are you saying remoteFX does not require LAN bandwidth?

    I have wanted to offer remote fx to our hosted vm subscribers but as far as I know it requires more bandwidth and less latency then most subscribers coming in over the Internet will have.


    BarrySDCA

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:45 PM
  • It does require LAN bandwidth, however on average it requires less bandwidth than normal RDP does today. The difference is extremely noticeable when watching video over RDP with RemoteFX. Try it yourself. Watching a HTML5 video on WS2008R2 over RDP can easily max out a 100mbps line. The same video -- sound included -- over RemoteFX can go quite comfortably in as little as 3 mbps.

    Thursday, June 21, 2012 4:10 PM
  • Installed Windows Server 2012 on Azure. Everybody hates the Metro UI on it. All the developers hate it all our clients hate it. Can we turn it off? Why do we have Metro UI on a server. It is unusable on Remote Desktop especially if you dont have Windows key. But anyway spent a whole day answering emails how to start Visua Studio. I have developers with 20 years of experience and the cannot start VS on it.  

    Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:54 PM
  • The Metro UI will change the face of consumer desktop computing for the next 5 decades.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

    Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:45 PM
  • Ben,
     
    Let's take just one item in your list - disk
    deduplication. This would have been of great use 15 years ago when disks were
    small and expensive. At that time, we learned how to manage our server disks to
    control space usage and to buy another drive when we had to. Now, with 4Tb
    drives available for $200, we don't waste time thinking about it.
     
    It seems to me that everything you consider to be a
    vast improvement is just another incremental change, sometimes in the right
    direction (Hyper-V 3) and sometimes in the wrong direction (Metro).
     
    And why is MS insisting that I stop using a GUI and
    go back to a DOS box - Oh, I meant Powershell, My Bad.
     
    Tom

    Tomás Mason

    Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:32 PM
  • .  .  .

    And why is MS insisting that I stop using a GUI and
    go back to a DOS box - Oh, I meant Powershell, My Bad.
    Tom

    Tomás Mason

    Let's see.
    Programs that insist on taking over the whole screen and don't let you run anything else.
    Having to use scripts and command lines to really do anything.

    It reminds me of somthing.  But I have to think back more than twenty years to remember.  I was the proud owner of a 16 MHz 386 with a whopping 2 megabytes of memory and a 40 megabyte hard drive.

    Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:41 AM
  • Installed Windows Server 2012 on Azure. Everybody hates the Metro UI on it. All the developers hate it all our clients hate it. Can we turn it off? Why do we have Metro UI on a server. It is unusable on Remote Desktop especially if you dont have Windows key. But anyway spent a whole day answering emails how to start Visua Studio. I have developers with 20 years of experience and the cannot start VS on it.  

    Imagine what a IT department is in for with hundreds or thousands of users and a mass rollout of Win 8. A 300% increase in calls to the help desk, or 500%, or more?.  If you're in IT management picture yourself in a staff meeting and accounting is ranting how the "improvement" is destroying their productivity and then sales starts in.  Explain that to the CEO.  It sounds like Win 8 is a career decision.  :|

    Monday, June 25, 2012 2:54 PM
  • I firmly believe Mr. Bill Gates would have the same frustration! 

    I have a huge amount of difficulties to active the "start" metro menu in Windows Server 2012 RC through RDP. I can get one success after trying about 20 times.  

    I cannot deny that I like many of the new features in 2012 server.

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 4:51 AM
  • If Obama can force us to buy Health Insurance then MS can force us to use Metro.

    What's the problem?

    Just another classic MS FAIL.

    I love the classic MS-DOS 4.0 look of the GUI.  The designers were probably too young to realize that this design was already used back in 1988!

    Same thing - I've been trying to give it a chance, but every attempt with Win 8/Server 2012 leaves me with the same conclusion:  Why does it take me 3 - 4 more mouse clicks to get anything done than it used to.

    Brilliant strategy - "I know. let's make everybody use a smartphone interface for everything!"  That's a brilliant strategy for maximizing my 3 - 24" monitors that have an average of 2 -3 RDC windows and about a dozen apps open at any one time.

    Metro's fine on a phone or a tablet where users typically only use one app at a time due to screen real estate constraints.  It's just an obstacle on a real workstation. 

    Let us turn it off please.

    Either let us turn off Metro on the desktop or you'll be supporting Win7 well into the next decade.

    We report, you decide.  :)

    EDIT: Problem solved. Just install Rocketdock.


    Gary J


    • Edited by Gary J51 Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:10 AM
    Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:04 AM
  • wow this thread still going strong... If Microsoft won't listen to their customer base, I will seriously consider alternatives in the future.

    I participate in another IT communicty in Denmark as well, and not a single IT administrator have anything nice to say about this arrogant move.

    Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:38 AM
  • I really dont think that microsoft has the customer in mind at this point.

    Patrick Clark

    Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:28 PM
  • I've got a great idea for a new name though; instead of Windows; if they insist on forcing Metro on everyone they should rename it to Window.

    Gary J

    Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:08 PM
  • In answer to the question "What about remote (non-RDP) management does not work for you?". A few (non-exhaustive) examples are:

    1. The need to use third-party tools that are not integrated with PowerShell / the remote management environment. Just one example - say I have problems with a DAS disk array on my server. I need to be able to run the array configuration utility, to monitor and make changes to the config. But what if this tool only runs locally on the server, and it doesn't provide a remote management functionality? Then you are stuck with needing to use RDP to use the tool.

    2. The need to use heterogeneous client environments to monitor and manage the server, for emergency monitoring and fixes while mobile or when you don't have your laptop. Such examples are older Microsoft clients (e.g. in Windows XP), third-party owned/managed clients (e.g. a third-party company that doesn't run the latest RDP client), and non-Microsoft clients (e.g. iTap RDP on an iPad / iPhone). I suppose you will say that you should run a Windows 7/8 VM, connect to that, and install and use the Server remote management tools from there. But this is not so good for small environments, third-part servers, isolated servers, when Hyper-V has problems you are trying to fix, when you need to shut down or reboot the VM, you are in a setup phase before the VM exists, etc.

    3. Real-time monitoring. e.g. what you see in Task Manager, Resource Monitor. Being able to real-time monitor CPU, disk read/write, memory usage, and use this to debug and tune server performance. How do you get similar graphical real-time updates out of PowerShell? It seems like you'd need to have an app that can replicate all the functionality you get using the local apps, which communicates over remote management. Eventually this may exist, but most don't today and won't for years.

    4. Many admins, developers, and advanced users want to be able to use Windows Server as a combined server and workstation for development, testing, and admin.

    5. Lights-out / out-of-band management, during setup, when debugging and changing network connections, in recovery environments. Need to use the console here, so the GUI usability is important.

    6. (Non remote admin, but a common use case) Remote desktop services, for hosted desktops for end users. The point here is a usable GUI for all client RDP connections (which are not necessarily using a Windows client or OS)

    The GUI usability is important for all of these cases. Now the RDP advances in Server 2012 are excellent. But the problems are some seemingly small decisions (e.g. Start button replaced by a tiny target) can have large usability consequences, for other clients and even in windowed (e.g. Hyper-V, lights-out management) and multi-monitor connections.

    Broadly I do like the new capabilities for multi-server management through remote management and PowerShell. And clearly, Server 2012 has many new compelling features. But the problem I have is that you are assuming a use case for how monitoring and management should be performed that is not always possible.

    I'm all for adding new ways to manage servers when it makes sense. Essentially, all we are asking is for you not to remove existing functionality and usability when it doesn't.




    Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:27 PM
  • David, I agree totally. I've started to note down with screenshots some of the points made in this forum here...
    http://david-homer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/why-i-hate-metro-on-windows-server-2012.html


    David Homer

    Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:47 PM
  • Seriously Microsoft, just look how much hate Metro is getting from mature professional IT admins - we are not little kids whining because you are changing something, we are willing to give new things a chance, but this whole design is just plain terrible. I honestly can't believe Metro has got as far as it is, but believe me one way or another you will be getting rid of it because you will lose so many sales and customers if you don't... so please do us all a favour and just scrap it now instead of waiting until the next iteration of Windows Server to fix this huge mistake. Oh and the same goes for the latest version of Visual Studio that you have Metro-ified! Looks like it was designed for Windows 3.11 and I'm not even exaggerating at all.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:56 PM
  • Well, what I can say. I just agree. It's totally pointless and I'm really curious to see if "everything will be fine" for microsoft, because soon or later, all the admins MUST get used with this (when 2008R2 will be "too old"), or if there will be really a big flop for the metro issue.

    In my opinion, even if I can declare myself a metro-hater as well, just 3 workaround are needed (without 3th party tools) to have all features we are missing of the start menu, on Client and Server:

    -Add as toolbar the desktop. Here we have the computer, control panel, etc.

    -Add as toolbar the Start menu Folder (User Profiles), Rename it as start menu. Instruct your users the start menu is now on the right side of the screen.

    -Put a shortcut on the desktop for shutdown /r or /s

    Though, the METRO is and will remain totally useless on Windows 8 Server and all Windows 8 client WITH A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD ATTACCHED. And I'm not counting to use a single button of it.


    • Edited by Spider3 Friday, June 29, 2012 7:43 AM
    Friday, June 29, 2012 7:42 AM
  • It should be obvious by now that the Metro interface on W2012 server is very unpopular with many, if not most, of the people who will be expected to use it in order to do their jobs.

    Anybody with more that 12 years experience with Microsoft OSes should know by now that MS doesn't give a F**k what they think, like, or want. All of the bitching in this thread is only good for self-pleasuring, it won't cause MS to get rid of Metro on server (who cares what they do with workstations - XP still works and is still used by 1000s of commercial applications [check out what your doctor or dentist is using]).

    What we can, and should do, is to not upgrade to W2012 when it is post-RTM. When your dimwit boss says, "We should upgrade", you say, "OK, but you know it's going to cost a lot and we'll have to hire more admins because it's much more labor-intensive to administer. Is it in the budget?". That should be the end of thaaat conversation.

    MS will NOT change W2012 Server. But, if we all do the above, W2016 will probably look much more like W2008.


    Tomás Mason

    Friday, June 29, 2012 8:13 AM
  • I'am sad about the developer wich has been built good new technologies inside the Server 2012. It will massacred by Metro  :(

    Friday, June 29, 2012 10:16 AM
  • Quote Microsoft “We love the Metro UI… We’re aiming at providing the same experience across products, including Windows Phone, Windows and Xbox.”

    It sums it up when Microsoft are promoting the same UI on both XBox and Server platforms.

    Just be glad that Microsoft are copying Apple and that Ninento isn't more popular otherwise we'd be copying files using a flick of the wrist with a Wiimote and shooting files with a bow and arrow to delete them.

    .... Actually maybe I'm onto something here...?

    Dave

    http://david-homer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/why-i-hate-metro-on-windows-server-2012.html


    David Homer

    Friday, June 29, 2012 10:58 AM
  • Ya but this late in the game, if WE loved Metro, we would all be in the Mac forum right now.  MS does not get that.  Listen to us know, hear us later (at earnings call).

    BarrySDCA

    Friday, June 29, 2012 2:09 PM
  • It should be obvious by now that the Metro interface on W2012 server is very unpopular with many, if not most, of the people who will be expected to use it in order to do their jobs.

    Anybody with more that 12 years experience with Microsoft OSes should know by now that MS doesn't give a F**k what they think, like, or want. All of the bitching in this thread is only good for self-pleasuring, it won't cause MS to get rid of Metro on server (who cares what they do with workstations - XP still works and is still used by 1000s of commercial applications [check out what your doctor or dentist is using]).

    What we can, and should do, is to not upgrade to W2012 when it is post-RTM. When your dimwit boss says, "We should upgrade", you say, "OK, but you know it's going to cost a lot and we'll have to hire more admins because it's much more labor-intensive to administer. Is it in the budget?". That should be the end of thaaat conversation.

    MS will NOT change W2012 Server. But, if we all do the above, W2016 will probably look much more like W2008.


    Tomás Mason

    Right.  Just skip over Server 2012.

    That is what I did with Vista, and with Server 2008 (for the most part).

    Friday, June 29, 2012 7:38 PM
  • I still believe, in my own opinion of course, that WS2012 is actually less labor intensive to manage. If you have multiple servers, isn't the marginal productivity loss caused by learning how to use a new user interface offset (and then some) by the advantage of multi-machine management?
    Friday, June 29, 2012 7:50 PM
  • Ben - I'm sure there are plenty of useful new features in Server 2012, but that's not an excuse for a ridiculously bad GUI. Why should we have to suffer this "marginal productivity loss" when it brings absolutly no benefit? Also, when you say multi-machine management what exactly are you referring to? Just the fact that Server Manager (which is also pretty badly designed) can target remote machines now?


    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Friday, June 29, 2012 9:19 PM
  • Ben,

    This statement of yours leads me to question the amount of actual experience you have in administering servers in a real-world, non-software company environment. In the real world, servers don't get installed all at the same time. They generally have different configurations - slight to really - based on what business function they serve. Most things an admin would do to a server that is up and running are items like:

    * Installing more software

    * Recovering from failed hardware

    * Converting to an alternate use

    * Debugging OS failures

    * And so forth

    And you wouldn't be doing these on multiple servers simultaniously. And, unless one is a complete idiot, one wouldn't be upgrading all of ones servers to W2012 at the same time.


    Tomás Mason

    Friday, June 29, 2012 11:33 PM
  • What about the story for people who are building cloud services, where the hardware *is* all the same and *is* deployed at the same time. The remote management improvements in Windows Server 2012 are really valuable to those people, and we certainly don't have as good a story for them in previous versions of Windows. This gap is solved with multi-machine PowerShell remoting, where you can simultaneously run a script or invoke commands on multiple machines (in AD or in a workgroup), as well as the remote management capabilities of the new Server Manager UI (which is continuously undergoing improvement even as we work towards RTM).

    An important thing to remember is that remote desktop administration is still possible, even though it might not be as convenient as it was before. Server has the Metro style interface for many reasons, not the least of which I've mentioned above already. It remains a fact that we have a limited set of development resources and we must try to make the most efficient use of those resources. The relevant question at this stage in the cycle is unfortunately not a matter of preference. Rather, it is whether something does not work for a specific scenario: and by does not work, I mean it is actually impossible to achieve that scenario, or if there is something that causes something really bad to happen. For example, it may be hard to bring up the Start screen with the mouse, but you can use the Windows hardware key to do that. I am not intending to sound arrogant, but it really is beyond my control. As an example of something we are able to fix, we're working to fix the RDP security issue that another poster discovered and mentioned.

    To be fair (and clear), I don't actually work on the management tools directly, or the user interface. I work on Server Composition: this release, I worked on composing the Server Core, Minimal Server Interface, Server with a GUI, and Desktop Experience packages. That said, I do work with the Server management team including the Server Manager UI team. They're the ones who are the experts in server administration, and I meet with them almost daily. All your concerns have been heard and continue to be noted, and I think we have done everything possible (short of bringing back the old Shell) to address the customer needs. However, we remain open to feedback as always :-)

    Since this thread is not really going anywhere, if people would like, I will hold an "office hour" (AKA conference call) next week at, say, 9 AM Pacific Time on Tuesday. If there is a specific scenario that you think is broken and needs fixing, I would love to hear about it on the phone and if I can't come up with a reasonable workaround, I will bring it up with the management team or whatever team needs to get involved. This is just like we do with our TAP partners and large customers. Be forewarned, the UEX team would likely sooner fix a defect with the Start screen rather than bring back the old start menu! Does this sound like something people would be interested in having? If so, I'll see if I can set it up.


    Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:40 AM
  • What about the story for people who are building cloud services, where the hardware *is* all the same and *is* deployed at the same time. The remote management improvements in Windows Server 2012 are really valuable to those people, and we certainly don't have as good a story for them in previous versions of Windows. This gap is solved with multi-machine PowerShell remoting, where you can simultaneously run a script or invoke commands on multiple machines (in AD or in a workgroup), as well as the remote management capabilities of the new Server Manager UI (which is continuously undergoing improvement even as we work towards RTM).

    That's great, I really mean that, but what has this got to do with adding metro to Server 2012? And not to kid yourself, you know as well as everyone in this thread that most of Microsoft's customers are not deploying 10's or 100's of servers each day.

    An important thing to remember is that remote desktop administration is still possible, even though it might not be as convenient as it was before. Server has the Metro style interface for many reasons, not the least of which I've mentioned above already. It remains a fact that we have a limited set of development resources and we must try to make the most efficient use of those resources. 

    Yes it is possible, just damn annoying to work with. It's like taking away the mouse from the average Administrator and saying "it's still possible for you to work, just use the keyboard shortcuts". The problem really is not with development resources. It's a very bad choice on Microsoft's behalf who is unwilling to hear their customers, and just makes excuses and workarounds.

    To be fair (and clear), I don't actually work on the management tools directly, or the user interface. I work on Server Composition: this release, I worked on composing the Server Core, Minimal Server Interface, Server with a GUI, and Desktop Experience packages. That said, I do work with the Server management team including the Server Manager UI team. They're the ones who are the experts in server administration, and I meet with them almost daily. All your concerns have been heard and continue to be noted, and I think we have done everything possible (short of bringing back the old Shell) to address the customer needs. However, we remain open to feedback as always :-)

    Since this thread is not really going anywhere, if people would like, I will hold an "office hour" (AKA conference call) next week at, say, 9 AM Pacific Time on Tuesday. If there is a specific scenario that you think is broken and needs fixing, I would love to hear about it on the phone and if I can't come up with a reasonable workaround, I will bring it up with the management team or whatever team needs to get involved. This is just like we do with our TAP partners and large customers. Be forewarned, the UEX team would likely sooner fix a defect with the Start screen rather than bring back the old start menu! Does this sound like something people would be interested in having? If so, I'll see if I can set it up.

    By not going anywhere, you mean people not accepting the workarounds proposed, and Microsoft not giving a f***, then yes it's not going anywhere. But let's be honest, you're not going to change anything. Microsoft made a bad choice, and they know it since there haven't been any valid arguments for including it. Only excuses, workarounds or talking about other features of 2012 that are great but has nothing to do with metro.

    The only thing we can do as customers is not to upgrade!



    • Edited by mbe-dk Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:54 AM
    Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:47 AM
  • Ben - I do appreciate you replying to this thread, I didn't really expect a reply from Microsoft here to be honest, and I'm sorry that we are all insulting something that you and everyone else at Micorosoft have spent a lot of time on... but please just accept the fact that pretty much everyone outside of Microsoft really does not like this change and it will seriously put them off buying your product. You can argue about why that shouldn't be the case all you like, but that won't change that fact so Microsoft need to accept it and do something about it. I don't want Server 2012 to be something we avoid, I would love for it to be a great OS that I can look forward to rolling out, but at the moment I will be putting it off until it is absolutely necessary or just avoiding it altogether.

    As for a list of specific things people don't like, David already posted his blog link here which has quite a few on: http://david-homer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/why-i-hate-metro-on-windows-server-2012.html

    However, we don't want "workarounds" or alternatives to these issues, we just want things to be intuitive and easy to use like they have been on Windows platforms for the last 10 years or so. I'm not against changing things, but only if it actually improves something - for all of the disadvantages that have been mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, what does the Metro UI on a server platform actually improve? Bearing in mind no one will actually be using this OS from a tablet... which seems to be what this entire UI was designed for (which was a terrible idea in my opinion).

    Also, saying that Microsoft have to make the client and server UI identical due to limited developer resources really is not an excuse - Microsoft is one of the largest software businesses in the entire world and I can't even guess how many millions of dollars Microsoft make every year. Your design decisions affect millions of people's every day lives, so cutting corners is not acceptable. If you need more developers to make a better server OS then employ some, I'm sure Microsoft is not short of cash.

    Oh and your comment about how people deploying cloud services would benefit from being able to perform the same operations on multiple machines at the same time again seems to point out how Microsoft are focusing on the wrong areas whilst sacrificing the more important things that people use on a day to day basis.


    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com




    • Edited by Chris128 Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:27 AM
    Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:17 AM
  • Ben, It's actually very simple to make everyone happy. Choose one of the following:

    • Remove Metro.
    • Keep Metro but make it available as a feature, defaulting to old start menu.
    • Keep Metro but make the old start menu a feature, removing Metro.

    Then the large corporations can deploy 100's and 1000's of servers with multiserver management tools and powershell.

    The smaller companies can work like they used to, with or without powershell with all the new features and improvements.

    ...and ehhhmm Microsoft can be happy that Metro is still in the OS? Sorry, but I don't know who would benefit from still having Metro in Server 2012.

    It's that simple.


    • Edited by mbe-dk Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:32 AM
    Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:31 AM
  • Was there really ever a time when "the customer was right" ?


    Gary J

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:07 PM
  • Ben:  We sell hosted virtual servers using hyper-v.  That is the one specific scenario where this is just not working - AT ALL.  ALL subscribers come in by RDP.   That is not going to change no matter what you do.  And -please- do not assume they are using the server for what you might use it for - they are not.

    Anyway, the one part that is broken is trying to find a 4x4 pixel area over RDP.  Imagine you had 300ms between you and the VM.  imagine 500ms.  some of our subscribers have just that.  Forcing them to hunt for a 4x4 pixel area is going to back fire on you so hard it's going to make your head spin.

    really...all you need to do is add a start button.  can even make it an option.  but forcing them to look for that 4x4 area.  I see the cancellations coming in a mile away.

    that is the only gripe I have.  the rest of the new 'features', I am actually looking forward to.  Especially hyper-v stuff.


    BarrySDCA

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:43 PM
  • I'm with Barry on this one. I love the new functionality of Server 2012. I can live with Metro and the Start screen, particularly if it was more customizable, and there were good options to make better uses of high resolution displays to increase information density.

    The key thing is for an easier or alternative way to trigger the start screen, which is used to start pretty much all applications you haven't already pinned. Right now the options are (1) target a 4x4 pixel area, or (2) hit a Windows key on a keyboard.

    But what if your client environment makes both of these hard or impossible?

    On (1) I've talked extensively about the problems hitting a 4x4 target, particularly:
    * in a windowed environment where the edges don't exist
    * from a touch-screen client without a mouse, which doesn't pass through touch to RDP
    * from a high-resolution screen where pixels are tiny

    On (2), there are plenty of clients that don't have a Windows key on the keyboard, or don't have keyboards.

    The most simple solution would be to be able to pin an icon to the taskbar to trigger the start screen. This otherwise known as the Start button :-)

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:25 PM
  • I installed Server 2012, and the first question that came to mind was, "WTF"?  After looking at the new server manager, I again asked, "WTF"?  After playing with it for a couple hours and after continuously asking, "WTF?", I decided I would shut the machine down and look at it later.  After 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to actually shut it down, I again asked "WTF"?  I have since nuked that machine and feel much better.  I don't see tablets being servers, so I don't know what Microsoft was thinking.  I'm sticking with Windows Server 2008R2 indefinitely, at least until some other manufacturer has a viable option, but Server 2012 isn't.  WTF?

    On a side note, assuming someone from Microsoft actually reads this.  I looked at Windows 8.  Microsoft is late to the tablet game, er, let me rephrase that, late to the tablet game with a product that people actually want.  Yes tablets running Windows have been around for years, but nobody was interested.  Enter Apple and Google with tablet solutions that people actually want.  Now up to bat is Microsoft with Windows 8 and their feeble attempt to enter into the tablet market with a product that they think people will want.  Talk about an epic fail at all levels.  Microsoft should just concentrate on the business world doing what they have done in the past and resign to the fact that they can't compete in the tablet/phone world and leave it alone.  How many people do you know that own a Windows Phone?  How many people do you know that own an iPhone or Android Phone?  Nuff said!

    By forcing this insanely thoughtless design down the throats of the business customer, the end result will drive them elsewhere.  I still remember Windows Vista, Windows ME, talk about products that didn't work and that nobody wanted.  Here we go again.  At least the business world had the choice to stick with Windows XP, while new computers were delivered with Windows Vista, what a cluster f**k that was.  I'm actually looking forward to the Apple commercials that will ensue once Windows 8 releases, it will be real entertainment for years.

    I just have one question for someone from Microsoft that actually wants to answer it:  WTF?

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:26 PM
  • Yeah the shutdown thing really makes me laugh - one of the most fundamental things ever and people are having to ask on these forums how to do it! It took me ages to figure it out as well, its almost like this is some kind of practical joke the way the most basic things are as unintuitive and awkward as possible.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:49 PM
  • @Barry, David- Having the ability to pin an icon to the taskbar to launch the start screen may be something we can do as an accessibility option. I'll investigate that on Monday. If it falls below the bar, I might write such a utility anyway, on my own time, and make it available via my personal web site.

    @Chris128- it's not that we don't have enough developer resources, there are many reasons, including a consistent UX between Client and Server, eliminating code duplication, minimizing security and servicing/patching footprint, and many more.

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:41 PM
  • thanks Ben

    BarrySDCA

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:06 PM
  • I just install Rocket dock.

    What a shame that for 30+ years we have been waiting for MS to improve useability and come up with easier ways to do things, only to realize time and again that they just don't get it.

    Fresh install of Server 2012, run BPA, it tells you you shouldn't be using 8+3 filenames and how to edit the registry to fix it - right from the get go.  Come on MS, do you really think we all need practice on how to do regedits.

    Same old MS, instead of cleaner, eaiser, and more powerful it's more like a game to see if you can figure out where they hid everything so that you can get back to where you need to be to get anything done.

    What a disappointment this is in so many ways.  That's why even monopolies eventually fail.


    Gary J

    Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:16 PM
  • The GUI IS the management tool for any given OS. The features are hidden behind. If an administrator or user is incapable to use the GUI to accomplish easily and efficiently, what he wants and what the features would allow, his time is wasted. Also the money spent for this kind of OS is wasted, especially, if the previous version of that OS is owned already and allowed the usage of its features much more intuitive.

    There are those companies, which are centered around software. These can take part in conferences, get full trainings for their employees and have the software on the machines up to date. And then there are those, which are different (and more usual) - which is the small and medium sized business as well as several enterprises. The smaller a company is, the less is the amount of money and time, which usually is spent for upgrades and user/administrator trainings. It's often expected, that Administrators and users simply know, what they do, but never get any chance for paid training or visiting TechEd or similar events to learn about the new stuff. Microsoft really should know, that even the nicest online training would not be a real replacement - as one gets disturbed too often during work time and can't get answered his real questions realtime. And from such perspective Microsoft expects this overworked administrator or a user, who has to perform his daily work he is paid for to learn something totally new, which seems to be often less efficient too. So why this administrator would recommend or even be tempted to use the new version of the OS? Plus, if he would do, he would get blamed for all the subsequent issues raising with the users and even more the managers among them.

    No, with forcing Metro GUI to desktop users and server administrators Microsoft does itself not a good service. Taking away the choice of option makes it not only much harder to adapt to a new version or even to argue for an investment, it makes also Microsoft stand as a dictator, ignoring the feedback of its most loyal customers and the real needs of its (not only corporate) user base. But we know this ignorance from the Office team with their still hardly accepted ribbons (at least my users are still cursing those far too often and asking for help to see this as an good UI).

    I wonder, where this will lead to - but definitively not to the big success of Windows 8/Server 2012.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Monday, July 02, 2012 12:30 PM
  • I've  been using Win8 RC1 on my laptop and have installed Srv2012 RC1 on a pair of hosts, both running Hyper-V. I really don't like the Metro interface, but it's here to stay at least for this release. So to some degree, it's go with the flow! 

    For me, the question is: how to deal with it. The (Metro) start screen is all those menu items in your old Start menu puked up onto the desktop without regard for relationships with other items, or importance. But the start screen DOES have a cool search feature. Just bring up the start screen and type the program you want - the explorer finds it and allows you to pin it to the task bar!

    From the start screen, just hitthe windows key and you get back to the near-classic desktop (both server and client). What I've been doing is to pin the programs I need to the start bar then stay in the desktop. If I need something, I can just windows-key back to the tart screen and go from there.

    The other HUGE benefit is the PowerShell everywhere. Now it's taking me some time to learn all the new cmdlets, but I'm finding more and more, I can manage the servers via the PowerShell prompt. I know some folks find it hard (trust me - take one of my weekend PowerCamps and you'll get it!!), but I'm finding it a god-send to getting over the loss of start menu. And having to setup two new 2012 server boxed- I just ship the same command to both systems and am doing setup in half the time! and frankly I find the command line and 'add-windowsfeature', etc, etc a whole lot easier than the GUI.

    We have to live with the fact that we have lost the start menu and get over it. PowerShell is pretty cool once you get the hang of it!

    Thomas


    Thomas Lee <DoctorDNS@Gmail.Com>

    Monday, July 02, 2012 7:06 PM
  • Thomas, nobody says, that there are no improvements in the new version of Windows - this includes PowerShell. But without need by metrofying the GUI many people will be scared off an eventual purchase of the next version of Windows. So they will not even be able to see the benefits.

    I know, that you are a PowerShell geek anyway, but many administrators are still not. And they will usually not have the time to figure out, how to accomplish certain tasks with PowerShell, since most of the tasks have to be done now and not somewhen in the future. The picturebook experience telling how to deploy Windows Servers in a company is often contradictionary to how it is done in real world. This begins in the number of machines/licenses and adds up in mixing up various versions of OS, a scenario, which is almost not a part of the beautiful Microsoft imagination. Often the administrator is not even an trained IT person, but does system administration as a side task.

    And its still the case, that too many basic tasks are taking more clicks, require more moves of mouse and eye than the classic start menu did. Who ever wanted this to be on the desktop as main screen, never got a training in ergonomics. Dont tell me about mythical usability labs there ...

    So I am afraid, many people will vote with their wallet.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 8:13 AM
  • Olaf - the problem here is that MSFT has decided something (i.e.Metro) and we have to live with it. While I utterly agree that metro is pants for the server, that's irrelevant. MSFT has decided and we have no choice but to live with it. My post was meant to point out you can live with it as I am doing every day.

    As to many administrators not being PowerShell savvy - they've had nearly 9 years to get savvy and now it's time to put it to use! With PowerShell you can avoid and eliminate much of the pain that is Metro. Trust me, once you convert over to the PowerShell way, life IS simpler. I see so many IT Pros struggling with a) the GUI and b) the myriad of incompatible command line tools and see PowerShell as a huge unification of management of the Windows Platforms.

    As to more clicks in the GUI - yup. That's been the case since NT4 and hasn't changed. It IS easier with PowerShel

    But let's get real - Windows 2012 is awesome. Corporations are going to love this, once their IT Pros get with the programme. And frankly, the learning curve is simply not that great. I can teach any semi-sentient IT Pro enough to make them productive in 1-2 days (although more is always better!).

    People WILL vote with their wallet - and things like storage spaces will have the corporates flocking to Server 2012's door. As for the client - well, I still have Windows 7 on my laptop and am unlikely to get rid of it any time soon. I think Metro on the client is a mistake - but that's VERY different to Metro on the Server.


    Thomas Lee <DoctorDNS@Gmail.Com>

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:38 AM
  • @Thomas - I agree with you in that MS is incapable of eliminating Metro from W2012 and that we'll just have to live with it. I put my shortcuts to the programs/tools I use frequently on the Desktop, not the Taskbar, but the effect is the same. I resist using PowerShell because I was never a UNIX geek and I don't like to type if I can click. It's true one can manage almost everything on W2012 via PowerShell, but I object to being forced to do so because some nerd in Redmond thinks it's SO cool and I'll be a better person if I just give in and go with the flow.

    @Olaf - I've always had the belief that MS really doesn't have a clue about how the vast majority uses their software. I've never worked for a company that would make changes to 100's of servers, deployed all around the world, all at once. When we deployed a server, it would be for a specific reason. The server would normally be delivered to corporate headquarters, configured, and then moved to its final location. After that, we'd administer it remotely, and pray that it would never have a failure that would require local activity (plane tickets to Singapore from San Francisco are expensive). And, I agree, for us GUI users, W2012 invariably requires more clicks than W2008. WTF, Why?!


    Tomás Mason

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:45 AM
  • Hi

    I hope very much that Microsoft wil bring back the Start button from Windows Server 2008 R2 to the RTM version of Windows Server 2012. The Metro start menu is unusable on a server, especially if you use RDP (what most admins and engineers do, I guess). Also the three buttons which appear on the right side of the screen are not useable at all.

    As an IT Professional you don't want to spend your expensive time trying to figure out how to move your mouse the right way to open a start menu on the server. I cannot understand why this new start menu has been brought to the server.

    Maybe the goal of Microsoft is to force IT pros to deploy as much server core installations as possible. But then it would be easier to remove the whole GUI completely and give us a real command line interface (with the good old text mode).

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 12:07 PM
  • Hi

    I hope very much that Microsoft will bring back the Start button from Windows Server 2008 R2 to the RTM version of Windows Server 2012.

    I would be willing to bet quite a lot that this just will not happen. Metro is here to stay whether we like it or not. As an IT Pro, you should be concentrating on PowerShell, and just pinning what you need to the desktop. These two approaches are how I deal with Metro and so far, I'm pretty happy. I hate, hate, hate, metro, but that's my problem!

    If you are an IT Pro, administering Server 2012 servers, the only way is PowerShell - resistance is futile.


    Thomas Lee <DoctorDNS@Gmail.Com>

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:39 PM
  • @Tomas

    Re POwerShell - trust me, once you learn it, it really is not that hard. For a start, you have tab-completion - type a bit and tab types the rest. It is SOOOOOO much improved in PowerShell V3. And the command window helps you compose cmdlet calls where you do not know the cmdlet well.

    Sure there's a bit of a learning curve, but I can get you through that in a couple of days!

    As as for your points to @Olaf - I have worked in places with large numbers of servers and yes they DO make changes to 10,000s of them. And with Azure, and private clouds, you do create things in the fly. The days of physical servers, vs virtual boxes, is fast diminishing.

    As for more clicks - this has been going on since NT 4. The program managers that own features change every so often, often once per windows release. The new guy feels duty bound to change things, finds the right survey groups and hey presto, 'an improvement'. They play the "Let's move stuff around because I can" game. And they are good at it.

    HTH


    Thomas Lee <DoctorDNS@Gmail.Com>

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:45 PM
  • Hi,

    I agree with the point of making changes to a large number of machines, having worked for the likes of Logica and CapGemini I can see this is very much a requirement especially for outsourced/managed IT environments.

    I don't believe in the technical dick-swinging regards to Powershell as a replacement for UI management. That is unless experienced IT professions want to be tied to doing what would be basic tasks with a UI because Junior members of staff can no longer perform them.


    Thanks,

    Dave

    CENTREL Solutions
    Automated Network Documentation

    http://david-homer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/why-i-hate-metro-on-windows-server-2012.html


    David Homer

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 4:56 PM
  • Exactly, depsite how useful Powershell is and how "easy" it is for people that have a decent amount of experience with it, the fact is its still easier for the vast majority of people (especially juniors and less experienced people) to get to grips with a window with text fields and buttons on it than it is to learn the syntax for a new bunch of cmdlets. Why won't people just realise that there's a damn good reason GUIs have been used in Windows Server for the last 15 years or so... because it is much easier and quicker for most people! Powershell is definitely useful, but it is not a realistic replacement for a GUI for the majority of admins.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:08 PM
  • Thanks Ben. Any follow-up on accessibility options to launch the Start Screen?

    In addition, there also needs to be a way to send CTRL-ALT-DEL from a remote desktop client. You need to be able to send CTRL-ALT-DEL for many reasons, e.g. to get to the Task Manager.

    Under Server 2008 R2, sending CTRL-ALT-DEL was an option off the remote Start Menu. But that menu doesn't exist any more, and I don't see how to do this in Server 2012 using the charms.

    Right now, from a client with a keyboard, you need to know that the shortcut of CTRL-ALT-END works - most people don't. And from clients that don't have keyboards, or don't have the ability to send keyboard press combinations, it seems you can't send CTRL-ALT-DEL!

    Tuesday, July 10, 2012 10:24 PM
  • CTRL-ALT-END sends CTRL-ALT-DEL to the remote.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 3:24 PM
  • My apologies, I didn't see the last part of your message!
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 3:31 PM
  • @David, sorry the tool didn't meet the bar as a necessary accessibility option. You now can see when RTM is so I hope you can understand that time is tight! However, it's always possible to use a third party tool to create such a "start button."

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 4:08 PM
  • sorry to hear that Ben.  I'm afriad MS is going to regret not listening to their customers.  without such an option, I just don't see any way we can offer 2012 to subscribers given they all use RDP to login to their hosted servers.

    "listen to me now, hear me later"


    BarrySDCA

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 4:24 PM
  • Sorry to hear that, but at least adding a fake start button is something the end user can fix himself/herself. It is not something that belongs in the product.

    Under the hood, Windows Server 2012 is a solid product and I hope you and your customers will consider the other merits of the new release regardless of the user interface, especially when all that needs is a simple end-user tweak to meet your bar of acceptability.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 4:32 PM
  • Sorry to hear that, but at least adding a fake start button is something the end user can fix himself/herself. It is not something that belongs in the product.

    Under the hood, Windows Server 2012 is a solid product and I hope you and your customers will consider the other merits of the new release regardless of the user interface, especially when all that needs is a simple end-user tweak to meet your bar of acceptability.

    Thanks for the feedback!


    What "simple end-user tweak" are you talking about? How can the end user add their own fake start button?

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:47 PM
  • I too was initially disappointed with Metro and its insistence on forcing everyone to use it in every environment.  I still stand by my previous posts on this issue and think the criticisms expressed are all valid.

    That said, there are ways around it that work and I have set them up on my Win 8/Server 2012 systems to get around the whole Metro issue.

    Both Rocket Dock and Classic Shell run fine on both platforms and can be configured to give you back control of the desktop.

    It's just sad that MS forces us to find workarounds to be able to work the way we want to.

    Classic MS - great features that are too hard for anybody to use.  Wait till you see what has to be done to get Server Manager running without errors.  A real boon to true treasure hunters that want to spend all day chasing their tail on technet trying to decipher WinRM setup on the target server.

    Yeah, I know, learn Powershell, as if I didn't learn enough in DOS when I had to use the command line.  LOL


    Gary J

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:26 PM
  • Didn't one of the Consumer Preview releases of Windows 8 include a start button that brought you to the Metro start menu instead of the old one? 
    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:26 PM
  • @David, sorry the tool didn't meet the bar as a necessary accessibility option. You now can see when RTM is so I hope you can understand that time is tight! However, it's always possible to use a third party tool to create such a "start button."

    You're not serious, are you?

    Give Microsoft support for such extensions ?

    Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:29 PM
  • While I do like the new start menu itself, it was utter stupidity to make it auto hide in Server 2012.  What are we supposed to do when we're running it as a VM?  Probably 90% of our MS infrastructure is virtualized, which means RDPing into the server or connecting via the console.  Both cases involve windows inside your main Windows session, which makes it really frustrating trying to hover over the 10 pixels or so that activate the new start menu.  Can this be fixed?  I know that nobody in our IT department will even think about rolling this out until the usability is addressed.  Metro is fine for tablets, but we sure as hell don't want it in our business.
    Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:54 PM
  • If you want some help in understanding why MS is taking this off-the-wall approach to "improving" S2008R2, read the article on Microsoft in the August edition of Vanity Fair. It explains how these decisions are made in Redmond these days

    Tomás Mason

    Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:48 PM
  • While I do like the new start menu itself, it was utter stupidity to make it auto hide in Server 2012.  What are we supposed to do when we're running it as a VM?  Probably 90% of our MS infrastructure is virtualized, which means RDPing into the server or connecting via the console.  Both cases involve windows inside your main Windows session, which makes it really frustrating trying to hover over the 10 pixels or so that activate the new start menu.  Can this be fixed?  I know that nobody in our IT department will even think about rolling this out until the usability is addressed.  Metro is fine for tablets, but we sure as hell don't want it in our business.

    I created a 2012 RC LAB for a POC and deployed not less than 10 VMs completely on Virtual Infra.

    Yes, its really annoying when you try to hover the mouse for start menu or whatever it's called but it quickly vanishes from screen.

    I really like new features except this Start Menu nuisance. It definitely needs an improvement.

    If there won't be any changes in the RTM editions, I seriously doubt we would even think about rolling out this OS for our customers at least for next 2-3 years !!!


    I do not represent the organisation I work for, all the opinions expressed here are my own.

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties or guarantees and confers no rights.

    - .... .- -. -.- ... --..-- ... .- -. - --- ... ....

    Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:17 AM
  • ... .- -. - --- ... .... --..-- ..   .- --. .-. . .   - .... .- -   - .... .   ... - .- .-. -   -- . -. ..-   .. ...   .-   - --- - .- .-..   -. ..- .. ... .- -. -.-. . .-.-.- - .... .   ... . .-. ...- . .-.   -- .- -. .- --. . .-.   .. ...   .-   -. .. -.-. .   ..-. . .- - ..- .-. .   .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   --. . -   .. -   .-- --- .-. -.- .. -. --. .-.-.-


    Gary J

    Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:35 AM
  • ... .- -. - --- ... .... --..-- ..   .- --. .-. . .   - .... .- -   - .... .   ... - .- .-. -   -- . -. ..-   .. ...   .-   - --- - .- .-..   -. ..- .. ... .- -. -.-. . .-.-.- - .... .   ... . .-. ...- . .-.   -- .- -. .- --. . .-.   .. ...   .-   -. .. -.-. .   ..-. . .- - ..- .-. .   .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   --. . -   .. -   .-- --- .-. -.- .. -. --. .-.-.-


    Gary J

    Ha ha :-))

    Yes, I am in agreement with you on Server Manager functionality !


    I do not represent the organisation I work for, all the opinions expressed here are my own.

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties or guarantees and confers no rights.

    - .... .- -. -.- ... --..-- ... .- -. - --- ... ....

    Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:40 AM
  • One annoying thing is to get startup menu in RDP. Previously I can use mouse click the start button. Now I have to move my hand from mouse to keyboard and press ALT-HOME, then move hand back to mouse! 

    Or, I move the mouse to the right bottom of screen, *wait* a second or two, then see the little start icon and click. 

    Both of them are very painful if you have to do it hundreds times a day. 

    Please give us the start button back, or someway one click to home screen without waiting for a second.

    Thursday, July 19, 2012 6:58 AM
  • I was really looking forward to moving to 2012 and getting stuck into some of the impressive sounding things like the Storage Pool, but everything I've read above has really put me off attempting it.

    Hated Metro on Windows 8, but putting it in an interface to be used by IT Pros seems insane.

    Friday, July 20, 2012 8:00 AM
  • Even though there are hundreds of comments already, I just can't let myself NOT reply to this thread.  The user experience for Server 2012 is just awful.  There are so many improvement that I'm extremely excited for Server 2012, especially with virtualization.  The new Hyper-V is world-class.  But managing the server, especially over remote desktop, is just painful.  I could stand the new start screen, even though it slows me down, but the lack of a start button and the other corner gestures to get the charms and so on is like the UI equivelent of walking through mud.  It is so frustrating!

    It's ridiculous I have to spend time to do this, but the only thing that is going to save me is to set up a package in Configuration Manager to deploy Classic Shell to all my servers.  Why do I have to waste time doing what has been and should be standard?

    This isn't just a "oh i need to get used to it" thing either.  The very core of the Metro concepts does not translate *at all* to the server workflow.  Server work is heavily multitasked with extremely detailed lists and very little graphics.  Metro is huge buttons and one-app-at-a-time.

    And I thought the excessive use of gradients in Exchange 2010 was bad (try managing Exchange over a poor internet connection remotely and then get back to me four hours later after you add a single user).  Metro Server over RDP is just going to be absolutely excrutiating for my remote clients.

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:15 PM
  • Windows Server 8 Metro UI: Epic Fail.

    +1 here... I love some of the new features, but not the Metro UI...
    Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:00 PM
  • Dear Microsoft,

    I have used your operating systems since the first versions of MS-DOS.  Generally speaking, your user interfaces have reflected a steady progression of power and usefulness.  With the Metro interface as implemented on Server 2012 that train of progress has derailed, fallen off the trestle, and is lying  at the bottom of the canyon in flames.  There appear to be no survivors. 

    I will admit there are times when some new design paradigm, after initial criticism, proves to be of merit and its early critics become its ardent supporters.  Having reluctantly used Metro to accomplish some early testing on Server 2012 I find no reason to expect my views of Metro to improve.  Indeed, my user experience has become quite predictable.  Each time I switch to a Metro screen, in my mind I am expecting the familiar Windows desktop.  When the blue screen of death, excuse me, the blue Metro screen appears, my experience is to close my eyes, sigh, mutter expletives, repeat the phrase, “I can’t _________ believe it”, bang my fist on the table, and begin again the chore of remembering how to accomplish even the simplest of tasks.

    Honestly, when I first saw the Metro interface I thought it was a joke.  I’m still hoping it is. Would someone at Microsoft please sit down, slap some cold water on your face, and take a cold sober look at this thing.  What is the logic of it?  What is the organization?  What is the point of focus?  Unless you have forgotten, the tools your users have to work with are a visual display device and a pointing device.  You seem to have designed something that seems more at home on a pinball machine – bounce the cursor into the left corner to make the Start button appear, bounce the cursor into the right corner to make more icons appear.  Why?  All Metro appears to be is an agonizing layer of obfuscation that once penetrated, leaves you at working screens little if any changed from Server 2008. 

    I can’t help but think that if someone on the Apple side of the fence would have proposed something like this to Steve Jobs that heads would have rolled.

    God only knows how many collective hours people like me have wasted trying to accomplish tasks that heretofore had been pretty straightforward.  If left to live, I can’t begin to imagine what collective toll of wasted hours and dollars this interface will finally have taken upon your customers.

    I am not saying that the familiar Server 2008 R2 and earlier interface cannot be improved, or that an improved version might not appear radically different than what we know today.  But Metro is not the improved successor to what has gone before.  Please go back and try again.  What appears to be an otherwise substantially improved version of Windows Server should not be forced to live with this hideous interface.  Nor should we.

    I can only suggest that you take Metro, gather all its source code, lay it in a pine box and bury it where no future code robbers will try to resurrect it.  May it and we rest in peace.  Amen.


    • Edited by Dale M1 Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:38 PM
    Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:37 PM
  • It is kinda funny.  I too have my original MS-DOS 1.0 disks still on the shelf.  No matter, I probably didn't learn enough ovr the last 32 years of doing this stuff to hava an opinion that MS would consider listening to.

    I just can't help but think of the irony when I think that MS uses the logic of presenting a consistent interface accross all platforms.  Perhaps a noble idea.  I've long been critical of MS for overcomplexifying just about everything.  So it was a little bit encouraging to hear that they were at least thinking of trying to make things easier to understand and more coherent accross their product line.  That is, until I saw the roll out of all their new products.

    You gotta love it! Win 8 Phone, Win 8 RT, Win 8 desktop designed to run on complex networks hosted on state-of-the-art are you ready ... Server 2012 ???????????

    Huh?  You do mean Windows Server 8 - right?

    Even better, I now realize that Server 8 - sorry I mean 2012, will be the platform for ... are you ready ... ??

    SharePoint, Exchange, and Lync - 2013 !!!!!!!!!

    Boy oh boy, they sure do know how to keep it simple.

    These guys would have trouble organizing a two car funeral.

    No wonder the public doesn't get it.

    Then if you really want to see how far things haven't progressed, start reading the installation instructions for these products on technet.  I'm convinced that they just want to get everybody to just throw in the towel and go to the cloud.  But the easier answer may just turn out to be learning Linux.

    It's unbelievable that a company with so many resources apparently has no vision regarding product installation, manageability, and ease of use.

    I have yet to install ANY Microsoft product on any platform that doesn't show an error in event viewer immediately after startup.  That includes clean OS installs.


    Gary J

    Monday, July 30, 2012 12:38 AM
  • I have yet to install ANY Microsoft product on any platform that doesn't show an error in event viewer immediately after startup.  That includes clean OS installs.


    Gary J

    Absolutely true !

    Just installed one more 2012 RC in my Lab Setup and joined that machine to the domain and I could notice errors/warnings in event viewer even before joining the server to the machine.


    I do not represent the organisation I work for, all the opinions expressed here are my own.

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties or guarantees and confers no rights.

    - .... .- -. -.- ... --..-- ... .- -. - --- ... ....

    Monday, July 30, 2012 12:10 PM
  • The best one is when the BPA tells you right after a clean install that you shouldn't be using 8.3 filenames and gives you the instructions for editing the registry.  Like I need more practice going through all the reg trees to fix something that they tell us they shouldn't have been made the default in their own installation setup.

    Priceless.


    Gary J


    • Edited by Gary J51 Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:18 PM
    Monday, July 30, 2012 4:00 PM
  • There is no way in hell we will deploy 2012 the way it is.

    Our DBAs and developers can barely manage a server let alone one with no Start button.

    Microsoft Metro UI on servers: EPIC FAIL.

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 7:21 PM
  • Looks like Microsoft is listening - NOT!

    Win8 boot to desktop - removed

    Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:34 PM
  • Looks like Microsoft is listening - NOT!

    Win8 boot to desktop - removed

    That's OK.  At some point they may figure out that we aren't listening either when nobody spends their money on these upgrades.

    Now that they've dropped "Metro" perhaps they are also going to drop the "s" from Windows as they obviously have moved away from the core concept that all their previous desktop/server UI's were built on.

    Quick, but it now - Window 8

    LOL

    This will cause the biggest boost in Win 7 sales you've ever seen. They still win.


    Gary J

    Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:27 PM
  • So far with my experience in Windows 8 and Server 2012, I've come to this conclusion:

    Progman.exe > Explorer.exe

    Seriously. WTF is this garbage? Somebody call Ballmer and tell him to pack his bags and GTF out. If I didn't have a job to do, I'd pack a tent and a sandwich board, fly out to Redmond, and camp on the effing sidewalk in front of MSFT until they bring back the start menu. I wish I had the time and money to do that, I honestly do.

    I was an advocate of Vista and pushed it on people who ended up liking it but this is just insane! I simply can't bring myself to install this disaster of an OS on my primary system and I just SHIFT+DEL'd the VM that was running Win8 RTM. If there was ever a time for Apple to allow OSX to run on clone hardware, this it. They could DESTROY Windows by exploiting people's distrust of today's Microsoft. 

    What has become of this company? Is there even a SINGLE American working there anymore?

    I don't know what to do, I've been kicked out on my butt. Apple? Ubuntu? What's next? I feel like I've just been raped. And not the good kind.


    Thursday, August 16, 2012 6:16 AM
  • Looks like Microsoft is listening - NOT!

    Win8 boot to desktop - removed

    That's OK.  At some point they may figure out that we aren't listening either when nobody spends their money on these upgrades.

    Now that they've dropped "Metro" perhaps they are also going to drop the "s" from Windows as they obviously have moved away from the core concept that all their previous desktop/server UI's were built on.

    Quick, but it now - Window 8

    LOL

    This will cause the biggest boost in Win 7 sales you've ever seen. They still win.


    Gary J

    That or..... Here comes the year of Linux / Mac OS.  I for one will not be selling / supporting Windows 8 / Server 2012 to any of my business clients, friends or family, and have not been shy in telling every person I come into contact with to avoid the OS's period.

    And to those that say "try it, use it.. blah blah blah", I'm posting from Windows 8 right now (thought I'd give it a whirl on my touch screen Car-puter, which I'll be wiping tomorrow or the next day.  I don't enjoy going back and forth between two OS's that are so different I MIGHT AS WELL BE RUNNING LINUX.

    • Edited by Kelxin Friday, August 17, 2012 11:04 PM
    Friday, August 17, 2012 11:02 PM
  • This has to be a Joke !

    How do you log off from a RDS desktop session? How do I remote control? Why does it look like something from the 80's? and more importantly how do I turn it off?

    Well done MS, you really have lost the plot. Does all the additional functionality really need this 'horror' of an interface? Have MS listened to a single enterprise admin?

    Still it will save us the cost of SA licenses every year and I can hear the happy noises coming from Redhat.

    Windows8\Server 2012 thanks but no thanks I shall enjoy seeing what your competitors have to offer. Who ever thought this was a good ideas needs a good holiday and maybe to stop taking drugs.

    Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:38 PM
  • Such a shame that Microsoft is refusing to listen to us....or providing us a better answer as to why Metro is even in Server other than "you'll get used to it", or "use the remote tools", or "Powershell all the way baby"....which seem to be a way to avoid the initial question all together. Microsoft seems to have perfected the art of avoidance regarding Metro. It's obvious...MORE THAN OBVIOUS...that the vast majority of admins do NOT like Metro...yet it appears Microsoft is just going full steam forward with the plan.

    I can live with the limited color choices, the preskool look, and the start screen as an option. What I can't live with is the single Metro Window, the horrible display on multiple monitors, the constant shifting back and forth between desktop and Metro,  the kludgy remote options, and the completely new and inefficient way of doing a majority of tasks now...when all I want to do is my freakin' job! Good lord...it took me 10 minutes to figure out how to shut down the box and another admin had to show me how to bring up the power start menu....and all the new ways are worse than what we had in Windows 2008R2! There are now TWO task bars that work independently! How is that efficient? That's RIDICULOUS! PLEASE Microsoft....PLEASE give us back the damn start menu and additional control over what is otherwise a spectacular OS.

    I've been an MCSE since 3.51 and have passed 48 MS-specific exams in my 25+ consulting years...and this has to be the WORST interface I've ever seen. Memorizing Windows key commands reminds me of the old Wordperfect for DOS days. Is that what Microsoft is trying to accomplish here? Running powershell is great...but isn't this called "Windows"? I don't WANT to run things from the command line. I don't WANT to have to memorize a bunch of key commands. I don't WANT to have to remote into my server and juggle around a kludgy interface with pixel placement so small I can't even select things.

    I'm sorry....but the Metro UI on Windows 8 desktop is bad enough...but at least I can "live" with it somewhat. To put it on a server where it has ABSOLUTELY no place WHATSOEVER is a complete abomination.

    For the first time in my career with Microsoft products...I'm actually ashamed of what the server product has become. I'm also horrified that no matter what feedback from THE most loyal and dedicated Microsoft fans in the world...Microsfot seems hell-bent on doing things THEIR way and telling us we're wrong. That's just sad. Really. And this is coming from a person who is currently a triple-MCITP certified Microsoft advocate.

    Why? Why is Metro in Server 2012? Why? It's absolutely terrible. Worst decision ever.

    • Edited by SAS71 Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:29 PM a
    Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:08 PM
  • I don't believe that the companies who participated in the TAP programs didn't ask the same questions that are being asked here. Microsoft... wake the fuck up and listen to your customers! Unbelievable!

    • Edited by mbe-dk Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:04 PM
    Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:52 PM
  • I took me a while to really get used to it but now I don't mind the new interface. I think it will be much cooler when I have a touchscreen to use it with but I plan on getting one for testing (eventually). I've always worked on a lot of different operating systems, so I'm pretty used to changing up my work flow. 

    I've really started to get good use out of the tiles screen but I think there are some things that I think would make the experience better for my workflow. 

    The biggest thing is I wish I could add any item to the start screen. I've added the apps I use often and my most frequently used apps are pinned to the taskbar. I'd really like to be able to put the power button on there, as it is now it's actually a pain to shutdown and restart. Its to slow so I use either the CLI or the run command to shutdown. 

    The network icon on the taskbar & under the start screen isn't very useful. I'd really like to click the icon (not right click because of touch screens) and have access to all the things I need to do, set ip addresses, create virtual switches, change network card settings, bridge connections, everything in one easy to access place. Right now it's pretty convoluted for example. To change and IP address I have to right click the network icon, select network and sharing center, then click the change adapters settings and finally right click on the adapter that I want to edit the properties of, scroll down, select IP4 and then edit. Of course powershell is always there and I use it because it's much faster but I enjoy using a gui and I think when done right it's much faster then the CLI. 

    I've gotten very used to using it as a launcher but I wish it defaulted to all results when I do a search. So if I hit Win key, type sound, I then have to click settings to access the results. If I could change that to a all results and then click apps, settings or files to narrow the results it would be just a tad bit more usable. The most important thing about a launcher is it gets you to you result in as few steps as possible (like quicksilver did). 

    I think one of the big things that might be confusing people is how buried the apps are. Sometimes you just can't remember the exact name of an app or you might not know it at all (like some rarely used vendor utility). With the start screen the way it is now it's not very obvious that you need to right click the screen and then click an icon to view all apps (yet another item that should be right on the main screen). 

    This might make people's heads pop off with anger but what's the point on keeping the desktop. I can pin what I need to the start screen. People also need to get off of the habit of storing data on the desktop. I've managed thousands of users and I've rarely seen a user (or admin) effectively use the desktop in a productive way. I'd also leave the taskbar running at all times. When it's gone I lose functionality and if I decide I want to get back to an app, I have to close the start screen and then access the taskbar icon, it's an added step for no reason IMO. Visually the taskbar and the startmenu should share the same theme that way the transition between the two is seamless. So the way I see it is, I hit the start (windows) key my apps are replaced by the start screen, hit the start key again and I'm right back or click and icon on the taskbar and the start screen disappears and all visible apps take the screen back over. Also you gotta put an icon on the taskbar, not a menu just an icon that brings up the start screen. 

    I know a lot of people are complaining that M.S has changed to much and it's to different. I've been using Windows since V1 and as indoctrinated as I am to the window 95 paradigm, I like the change. I think it's about time someone has tried to address the shortcomings of the Windows GUI and take advantage of modern computing concepts and this is a fantastic start. 

    @mde-dk 
    Did microsoft run over your puppy or something? cool out man, it's just a UI change it's not the end of the world. 
    Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:41 PM
  • @Dustyny1

    I for one, like many others in this thread, are sick and tired of Microsoft's arrogance, forcing Metro on us when clearly it is not an improvement.

    Change for the sake of change is never good, and Metro does not improve or make the life easier for admin, quite the opposite.

    You talk about how you've adapted to new interface, but don't explain what Metro does better, only what needs to be fixed.

    Friday, August 31, 2012 8:02 AM
  • Exactly, he states that this is a good start for addressing the shortcomings of the Windows GUI but I don't see how Metro does that in the slightest... all it does is introduce new problems and make things extremely unintuitive and painful to use.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Friday, August 31, 2012 9:18 AM
  • @mbe-dk
    It's never arrogant for a company to move a product forward, that's progress. How long do you expect them to drag out technology that was designed for computers that are thousands of times slower then your smartphone? Seriously we are talking 1995 technology, it's time to move on already. This might not be the right direction for now but in 12 years there will probably be a mbe-dk-jr upset that metro is going away.. It's happened before it will happen again. 


    That said you guys do make a good point that they didn't tune the experience for sys admin usage and they should have IMO. Then again, if you're using the gui that heavily, your not being a very effective sysadmin. Why even run a gui on a production server anyway? All that extra overhead so you have a better experience when you remote in to it? The only time I put a box out there with a gui is when some application can't run without it or in the lab for easy testing. 90% of management happens through software like Hyper-V manager or system center, server manager, etc. I barely even see metro and that's just because I like using it for certain tasks. 


    I'm sorry you don't like it but this is the new direction its not going away and it's clear they have no intention of going backwards. If you don't like it that much either stick with Win2k8 (as a lot of shops will) or move on to another OS platform. Linux has some excellent GUIs and you change pick and choose which one you like the best and run it on top of any of nearly any distro you prefer. 

    Here you go, maybe this will help you have a better experience,.. This is Windows it doesn't take long for the community to come up with solutions. 
    Classic shell Start Menu for Windows Metro 
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/23/classic_shell_gives_windows_8_a_start_button/




    • Edited by Dustyny1 Friday, August 31, 2012 7:19 PM
    Friday, August 31, 2012 2:10 PM
  • Completely crippling the most key component of user interaction in both Win 8 and Server 2012 will go down as one of Microsoft's biggest blunders.

    Absolute garbage, idiocy, fail.


    Tuesday, September 04, 2012 11:21 PM
  • @Dustyny1

    It's not just Administrators that log onto servers...

    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 1:31 AM
  • No car, no pressure!
    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 5:54 AM
  • Windows8 the pattern does not like!
    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 6:00 AM
  • @Dustyny1

    It's not just Administrators that log onto servers...


    Ever heard of a feature called Windows Desktop Experience.
    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 6:22 AM
  • @Dustyny1

    It's not just Administrators that log onto servers...


    Ever heard of a feature called Windows Desktop Experience.


    Yes of course these are both correct but they still have no bearing on what I said. You make a good point about the UI being a problem in the consumer space but the server world is a very different thing all together. 


    @Allister 
    That is true hobbyists and terminal server users also connect. Not to be rude but hobbyists don't understand the tools that M.S provides and how they are they are used to solve problems in the enterprise because they don't have the same experience. As for terminal server users they generally have such a modified experience they don't don't see much of the Windows UI. 

    @mbe-dk 

    As I said. "The only time I put a box out there with a gui is when some application can't run without it". 

    Terminal services is one of those use cases. From my experience with terminal services the gui is a nonissue.  Most places that I've been in (medium to large biz) usually deploy the desktops & terminal severs with a heavily modified (simplified) user experience, generally almost all of the Windows gui is hidden. This helps to keep the machine more secure (as a part of the lock down process) and simplifies the user experience so you can reduce confusion that leads to more calls to the help desk. 

    Here's the thing.. You have to consider that what you are talking about is a matter of your personal preference and may not be in the best interest of the rest of the community. For Windows Server this is UI is fine (when we even use it), we can get in there and change things, we know how we're admins. The Windows 8 world is different, the average user doesn't know how to use tools like the local policy and without a touch screen a lot of the UI is going to not make as much sense. That said I think that with a touchscreen this new UI might be really effective. 

    The other thing to take in to consideration is that we can't go backwards, read through the developer blogs the code that would have supported the old UI is gone. So like it or not we have only one way to go.. 

    The new features are a huge leap forward but the price for all this ambitious change is that not everything is fully baked just yet. That's the product development cycle. Sometimes you just can't get something perfect until the users use it on a daily basis and you can get feedback on what needs to be changed. That's why developers spend time on these forums. 

    So instead of complaining that you don't like it with no explanation other then it slows you down, take time to learn the UI and explain what's not working well for you and why, share your ideas what you'd like to see in the future. 

    Good luck guys.. =) 





    • Edited by Dustyny1 Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:40 PM
    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:03 PM
  • All these details and opinions being discussed tend to overlook the one most important fact; ie Microsoft is forcing this on it's users unilaterally and depriving them of a choice that would be easy to accomodate.

    The CUSTOMER is right, when?

    Oh, not at MS?

    If they are not pro-choice, no democrats are going to buy this product.  National boycott, picket signs, demonstrations on the front steps ... i can see it now!


    Gary J

    Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:53 PM
  • If you want a community driven system then you need to move to Linux. Microsoft's model isn't consumer driven (neither is Apple, Oracle, HP, DELL, etc) this is a for profit company, that is one of the most complicated business strategy. I can't even begin to imagine how complicated it is to converge their countless lines of business with the largest 3rd party ecosystem that has ever been created. 

    So do you really  think your lack of desire to move to the UI is more important to M.S then their need to move in to new markets and drive new industry? Or have you forgotten that new technology is the very foundation our careers?  I don't know about you but new tech means new opportunity to me. 
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:37 AM
  • Yes, and Henry Ford would sell you a Model T in any color you wanted as long as it was black.

    I have no objection to moving to a new UI as long as it's an option and not a mandate.

    By the way, you can still buy a black Ford.


    Gary J

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:08 AM
  • It is an option in the sense that you can still buy Windows Server 2008 R2, or install one of a number of third party utilities designed to replace or alter the Shell on Windows 8/Server 2012. That being said, we've clearly focused on some other things this release. Rather than maintain a legacy interface, we decided to use our resources to add new server features that make Windows Server 2012 arguably one of the most major releases of Windows Server -- ever -- in terms of new functionality. 
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:49 AM
  • Gee, isn't that comforting.  Don't give customers what they are asking for, just let them find their own kludges and worarounds or let them do without any of the advantages of the underlying improvements in the new product.

    To continue with the auto industry analogy - remeber how Japan kicked Detroit's butt BY GIVING CUSTOMERS what they were telling the Japanese mfgrs. they wanted in new cars?

    But, indeed, I surrender.  It's obvious that there's no way to be persuasive in a captive audience that just wants to defend customer indifference from a monopoly and try to sell it as if the problem is with customers that "just don't understand" what the companies objectives are.

    Enjoy Metro - all hail Metro!


    Gary J


    • Edited by Gary J51 Thursday, September 06, 2012 5:11 AM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 5:10 AM
  • But we did give customers what they were asking for. We heard it over and over: Why can't I SSH into my Windows server? How can I efficiently manage multiple servers? Why does Windows take up 12 GB of disk space and require 512 MB of RAM when I can get <x> from your competitor?

    And now you can manage multiple servers with ease, you have remote PowerShell functionality (even better than SSH, in my opinion, and I was an avid Linux user for several years too). You have Server Core which can run all the server roles that 90% (I made that number up) of our customers use day-to-day, with 50% of the disk footprint and patch surface, and have the ability to install all the GUI back if you so choose. And all the while, we had to make some tough choices.

    For the Remote Desktop users, who might just be getting used to Windows 8, aren't we somewhat obligated to give them a consistent experience across their Windows 8 Client PC and the Server 2012 server they are RDPing into? Is it sustainable to support and maintain every legacy button and behavior of Windows so that people who are used to finding things in a specific place don't have to adapt to any change when we're trying to shift the whole new management and administration philosophy anyways -- in response to feedback from those users? 

    > Let them find their own kludges and worarounds or let them do without any of the advantages of the underlying improvements in the new product.

    By refusing to embrace Server Core and the new minimal server initiative, those people are already intentionally eschewing the "advantages of the underlying improvements in the new product." Many of the new advancements and improvements in Windows Server 2012 don't even have the ability to be managed graphically at all. Rather than building a GUI management on top of them, those same engineers were able to work directly on other features that make Server 2012 a better server. Like it or not, that's the direction that a number of people here at Microsoft agreed was best for this release. 

    That said, we're constantly working on improving Windows Server.  Many new builds come out of the build system daily, and it's a constant process of iteration driven largely by feedback from the community. Microsoft is not the ivory tower that many make it out to be. What is important to realize is that sometimes we have to make hard decisions. This was one of them, and at least there's a workaround.  


    Thursday, September 06, 2012 5:36 AM
  • As an admin YES I am happy with the improvements UNDERNEATH Server 2012.

    But then I'm scared of how users will react to Server 2012 if it were their TS interface. I don't have time to fudge around making some custom interface, I can lock it down and whatever but I work 2 different medium sized companies, time is not something I have.

    To me from testing, you have a completely 100% touch optimised OS being pushed on things with a keyboard and mouse. For RDS I don't see this as workable, posts above outline the physical issues of the Metro interface requiring you to basically emulate touch actions with your mouse... To me this is ridiculous to blanket across every product. Let alone something as finicky as RDS.

    As an admin I *should* be using Powershell and doing everything via remote tools everywhere etc. As someone who at most uses some ds commands and batch files here and there Powershell is a pedantic nightmare, every single time I've gone to use it I've had issues. The inputs are too specific (piping is a joke to perform between commands that should just work together) and the security/certificate bs you get when creating a powershell script just from copying some text and saving it as a ps1 is beyond a joke.

    I know that's sidetracking, but as a busy admin that is my experience. I use a customised MMC for a fair bit successfully. But then that has shortcomings that can only be overcome by RDPing it seems. I know my lack of Powershell knowledge is a lack of training.

    My point, RDPing onto a server and performing tasks as an Admin for a Medium business is a lot easier than spending weeks learning these tools to achieve what I already can.

    But now MS is taking that interface and making me feel like I need to start leaving handmarks all over the screen. Ben, MS are NOT listening to their users on this in anyway. Having a touch centric UI on a server is beyond stupid. I have a keyboard and mouse, I want to use a UI, give me an interface designed for a Keyboard and Mouse.

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 5:55 AM
  • Great points Ben.

    And how many demanded Metro?


    Gary J

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:13 AM
  • When 2008 R2 was released, we had a strong push to adopt Server Core at the company I worked at.  I drank the kool-aid and it seemed awesome at first.  I had to learn the command line way to do things (which are frequently non-intuitive, but that's what Google/Bing is for).  It was THE standard way to deploy Hyper-V hosts.  So, you know, kudos to you, MS, it worked as advertised.  About a year later we were going through scheduled maintenace to update a bunch of drivers.  Long story short, Server Core was not supported by the installer properly and it basically completely corrupted the driver.  Uninstall, reinstall, didn't help.  After a full night on the phone with the manufacturer, I gave up.  It was getting late and I wanted to go home.  So I cut my losses and reinstalled the entire OS, services, and so on.  Luckily it was a Hyper-V host, so the install time was fairly minimal and it wasn't too hard to reattach the VMs.

    This was not some home-rolled server.  This was a modern major manufacturer server.  I was told by the tech that this was "common" on Server Core.  If I had regular Windows Server, it wouldn't have happened.

    I'm not straying from the point here for no reason, but to point out that the best intentions don't always yield the best real world results.  I'm sure during all the testing of Server Core (remember, this was R2, so several years after its debut) would not have turned this up, because it relied on a third party screwing something up.  But what's a customer supposed to do?  They are put into an impossible situation!  Remotely manage the server with PowerShell or whatever?  Sounds great when everything is working correctly!  But anybody who works in the real world and not just test labs knows that you are hardly ever interacting with a server that is working correctly.  When it is not working correctly, you don't want to be slowed down.  Time is money.

    I'm sure millions were spent on the new UI that showed all kinds of amazing improvements in productivity, tests showing improved discoverability, and all kinds of other crap that, frankly, the typical end user of a server doesn't care about.  The end user wants the darn thing to work, work well, and not change after they get used to it.  You can spin it all you want about how we're moving forward and don't be stuck in the past, and whatever other nonsense, but that doesn't invalidate real complaints that have turned this thread, and many other threads, into places where real customers who pay real dollars are pissed off.

    The people complaining here simply do not want the new Start Menu because it slows them down.  Full stop.

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:18 AM
  • The good intention thing brought me to implement RODCs. Which worked well, until the day, when a branch office became disconnected from the WAN connection for several weeks.

    Already on the first day the DHCP server became unauthorized. Clients were no longer capable to register with their DNS server. Really painful the situation became after the first user account passwords expired and the users could not login without changing the password, which was not possible, or pulling the network cable for logging on with cached credentials.

    So this experience with Read Only Domain Controllers shows as your example, that there is much more hidden behind the marketing ideas, what nobody really tells you, but seriously affects your real life experience.

    And to answer Gary - not many, but under those was at least one person in Microsoft at a very high level demanding the Metro UI and the death of the classic start menu. We are have to deal now with the results of the decision of that person, as had the developers in charge for Windows Server.

    (Although the decision for our company will be clearly to not touch Windows Server 2012.)

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:45 AM
  • Ben - just because you made the Server Core role available, and made everything manageable from powershell, doesn't mean those of us that do want to use a GUI should be forced to use something that looks awful and is unintuitive. There's absolutely no reason why you can't have good command line / powershell functionality AND a good GUI.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:08 AM
  • @Timothy- we're working on the installer thing. Server Core is seeing wider adoption these days and hopefully that will incentivize ISVs to support it officially. We still don't recommend using Server Core with server applications that aren't designed for it. We also do extensive app compat testing to eliminate as many regressions as possible that might occur with 3rd party applications. I'm happy to investigate with the App Compat team if a major vendor is being missed (there are thousands). 

    The WHCK (used for certifying drivers) also works on Server Core targets as of the latest release. 

    @Olaf if you are seeing an issue with RODC please start a new thread (and link here to bring it to my attention) and I will reach out to the team and file a bug if necessary. We have been able to address some customer issues on this forum. One customer was suffering from brute-force RDP logon attempts and we were able to add a throttling feature to Server 2012 between RC and RTM. 



    Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:23 AM
  • @Allister: If it makes any difference, nearly all the MMC snap-ins are still alive and well :-)
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:39 AM
  • Gee, isn't that comforting.  Don't give customers what they are asking for, just let them find their own kludges and worarounds or let them do without any of the advantages of the underlying improvements in the new product.

    To continue with the auto industry analogy - remeber how Japan kicked Detroit's butt BY GIVING CUSTOMERS what they were telling the Japanese mfgrs. they wanted in new cars?

    But, indeed, I surrender.  It's obvious that there's no way to be persuasive in a captive audience that just wants to defend customer indifference from a monopoly and try to sell it as if the problem is with customers that "just don't understand" what the companies objectives are.

    Enjoy Metro - all hail Metro!


    Gary J


    Gary don't you think it's a bit arrogant to speak on the behalf of hundreds of millions of customers? 

    If you are so brilliant that you can in one fell swoop declare a project a failure on launch, then you need to join the Gnome team and help them get that project back on track. 

    • Edited by Dustyny1 Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:11 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:02 PM

  • Gary don't you think it's a bit arrogant to speak on the behalf of hundreds of millions of customers? Who are you to say this isn't what customers want? This isn't what YOU want. Let's rewind a few years back to when M.S introduced the Ribbon style UI in Office, people said that it would destroy M.S office, that people would move in droves to Google Docs or Open Office. Yet Office is still here, it's been massively deployed across the industry. 

    Have you not read the rest of this thread then? Its pretty much all negative and from lots of different people.

    Oh and I (and many others) still think the ribbon UI in Office is pretty bad.


    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:05 PM
  • Clearly, Ben and Dustyny1 refuse to discuss the real problem here.

    This is not about the new features in Windows Server 2008.

    This is not about about mass deployment and powershell.

    This is not about server core and minimal server.

    This thread is about using the Windows Server 2012 OS with a GUI!

    I don't want to hear about how we should switch to server core, minimal server and powershell. We are discussing the GUI, which is Metro and what is wrong with it.

    I like powershell, it helps me automate certain tasks, but it does not replace a GUI. Also it's optional to use.

    I like server core, but it only work with certain roles and applications. Also it's optional to use.

    So please... stick to the topic above: "New Start menu is slowing me down in Server 8"

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:47 PM
  • Dustyny1:

    I've made a LOT of money rebuilding networks that were designed by engineers who didn't have the time to do things right. Let me tell you this, when your boss brings in a guy like me to fix the mess that stems from your poorly implemented design, he or she will be asking themselves what they pay you to do. Especially when it takes me 6 months to undo what it took you years to build. I can cut over entire clusters in a weekend because I use scripting and the remote management tools. I can take down a 50-100 node cluster on Friday night and have it back up on Monday and no one will even know. I could NEVER do that by connecting to one machine at a time.. 

    I know you and a few others are probably thinking to themselves, man this guy is an asshole M.S defender. I assure you I'm not, I prefer Windows but I've also managed hundreds of Linux & Unix boxes as well. In my experience Windows is much easier to manage and scale because they do such a good job of providing admins with a excellent set of tools.. YOU NEED TO LEARN THOSE TOOLS! 

    RDPing in to a server because you don't want to take the time to learn how to remotely manage it, is WAY more time consuming. You will constantly be connecting to machines doing the same tasks over and over again, instead of just writing a shell script that automates it for you.. No wonder you don't have enough time do get anything done, you're doing things the slowest possible way. 

    These are techniques  that we have used in the industry (Linux, UNIX, Mainframe) for over 30 years, this is basic knowledge that M.S has insulated you from for too long and IF you want to be a better engineer you MUST learn how to use these tools. Enterprise admins have been begging for a proper shell since NT 3.5 and now that we have it, it's absolutely the best of both worlds. 

    You think keeping track of M.S's interface changes sucks, try working on 6 different flavors of Linux all with slightly different CLI syntax, feature set and UI. It's a mess, M.S doesn't always get it right but they do a better job then the rest. 

    I think it's great you can "take down" 100 nodes over a weekend, what ever that means. It's still not relevant to this topic.

    "Let me tell you this, when your boss brings in a guy like me to fix the mess that stems from your poorly implemented design, he or she will be asking themselves what they pay you to do. Especially when it takes me 6 months to undo what it took you years to build."

    I really liked that comment, it really shows your true colors.


    • Edited by mbe-dk Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:36 PM 1
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:13 PM
  • @Dustyny1,

    Why do we need to learn these tools? I've worked from very large 100,000+ user installs to 10 user installs. For the Enterprise companies, I agree...managing hundreds of servers via powershell and other remote options are probably the way to go.

    For Medium-Smaller organizations which generally have 20 servers or less, I disagree. The current admins can barely keep up with their jobs because they are tackling budgetary issues, desktop issues, phone systems, cabling, ow to install a new SQL instance for a reporting app, backing up the servers, handling auditing, ordering new desktops, etc. They just don't have time to learn a whole new set of tools. Should they? Yeah...probably should....but that doesn't help them do their job any better. It's easy to just RDP into a box...and quickly know exactly what to do.

    In my area of the US...as well as areas like Canada and such, companies with over 1000 users is difficult to find. Most companies are ~100-200 users. Not even EA worthy. Expecting all the hundred thousand admins to suddenly ditch their familiar AND WORKING SOLUTIONS for different...possibly slightly better solutions...just isn't going to cut it. They just aren't going to do it. They are going to load the OS...fight with the core mode...install the GUI...and see the craptastic Metro interface. By that time, they'll have already hated the new OS. Microsoft is shoving the same complexity that a 100,000 user company requires onto all companies...even one that clearly does not need it....and those are the majority! They are making it too complex.

    If Microsoft had just given the option of the start menu and direct desktop boot to help wean us to Metro...then maybe this would have worked. People who want to learn the new tools could have at their own pace...and people who did not...would be able to do things and get their jobs done the way they currently know how.

    You don't just suddenly take off your kids training wheels and watch him crash over and over again without running along beside him and keeping him upright from time to time...unless you are a sadistic parent.


    • Edited by SAS71 Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:22 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:19 PM
  • I think this is a good example of Microsoft logic when approaching a customer complaint: "you asked for SSH so we bring you - PowerShell!"

    Don't get me wrong, I love PowerShell and think it's an excellent remote management platform - but it's not the same as SSH. PowerShell is far more complicated than SSH would be for certain tasks; can I tunnel a TCP connection via PowerShell like I do with SSH without three dozen lines of code? The only reason I can think that MS STILL does not include SSH standard in Windows Server are cryptographic export laws, and even that is a pretty lame excuse since it wouldn't apply to your customers in the US. Incidentally, why does Server 2012 include still include a Telnet server as an installable feature? Really? Give me one production use case for using Telnet on Windows Server 2012 - I dare you.

    Back to the matter at hand: I have to join the chorus that the GUI on Windows Server 2012 is an agonizing step backward. If we judge an OS by how many tweaks / 3rd party apps we need to install on the box to get it to a functional state, Server 2012 is the biggest regression in Windows history - especially if Microsoft is telling us to install a 3rd party Start Menu to get the GUI functionality we're demanding. It is a shame, too, because under the cheap Playskool-plastic Metro tiles is the best server OS Microsoft has yet produced. Too bad the interface will make it a non-start.

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:46 PM
  • Wow! What an absolutely disgusting reply. And I love how the poster is too spineless to stand behind it. It's surprising as they're clearly someone who is right 100% of the time.

    To whoever. Personally attacking me shows your own level of pathetic.

    I had this whole thing planned out to rebut you, but fuck argueing with scum spineless garbage.


    Thursday, September 06, 2012 3:07 PM
  • @Dustyny1,

    Why do we need to learn these tools? I've worked from very large 100,000+ user installs to 10 user installs. For the Enterprise companies, I agree...managing hundreds of servers via powershell and other remote options are probably the way to go.

    For Medium-Smaller organizations which generally have 20 servers or less, I disagree. The current admins can barely keep up with their jobs because they are tackling budgetary issues, desktop issues, phone systems, cabling, ow to install a new SQL instance for a reporting app, backing up the servers, handling auditing, ordering new desktops, etc. They just don't have time to learn a whole new set of tools. Should they? Yeah...probably should....but that doesn't help them do their job any better. It's easy to just RDP into a box...and quickly know exactly what to do.

    In my area of the US...as well as areas like Canada and such, companies with over 1000 users is difficult to find. Most companies are ~100-200 users. Not even EA worthy. Expecting all the hundred thousand admins to suddenly ditch their familiar AND WORKING SOLUTIONS for different...possibly slightly better solutions...just isn't going to cut it. They just aren't going to do it. They are going to load the OS...fight with the core mode...install the GUI...and see the craptastic Metro interface. By that time, they'll have already hated the new OS. Microsoft is shoving the same complexity that a 100,000 user company requires onto all companies...even one that clearly does not need it....and those are the majority! They are making it too complex.

    If Microsoft had just given the option of the start menu and direct desktop boot to help wean us to Metro...then maybe this would have worked. People who want to learn the new tools could have at their own pace...and people who did not...would be able to do things and get their jobs done the way they currently know how.

    You don't just suddenly take off your kids training wheels and watch him crash over and over again without running along beside him and keeping him upright from time to time...unless you are a sadistic parent.


    Are you really asking me why you should learn the tools of your trade? Things change quickly and if you don't learn the new tools your skills become out dated quickly. It's 100% necessary to stay abreast of changes, in order to be competitive in your career.. ignore change at your own peril (ask any PBX person and they'll tell you). 

    I'm an over worked admin just like everyone else.  I tend to juggle 4-6 major projects at a time, while putting out fires, between many different clients, all of whom have shoestring budgets. The reason why you learn how to use these tools is because it reduces your management overhead. This is even more important at small shops where resources are tight. You have to be better at using the tools at your disposal because budgets are limited and you can't buy more time.. That SQL instance that takes so much time to deploy, I can do in minutes, it used to take me hours, before that days or weeks. If you would have told me that 5 or 10 years ago I would have laughed in your face..  

    Isn't it obvious that Metro is designed to ween you off of the Win95 gui.. This is the interim solution! I use it all day every day (using it now) and after 3 weeks it's not slow at all, it's just different.

    I can get to just about every part of the system by hitting the windows key, typing in a keyword (like iSCSI) and one click (which could go away). Seriously have you even tried that yet? What is slowing you down? Not having a start button, is the Windows key the issue? If anything I want to see more support for the search/launcher. I'd like to search for a term and have it present the proper application for launch (hell bring me right to that function if they can). I'd like to be able to type "New Virtual Machine" and have the new virtual machine wizard appear. I think that's where things are going and when/if it does the gui will be much more powerful then the 95 GUI could ever be. 
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 3:15 PM
  • Clearly, Ben and Dustyny1 refuse to discuss the real problem here.

    This is not about the new features in Windows Server 2008.

    This is not about about mass deployment and powershell.

    This is not about server core and minimal server.

    This thread is about using the Windows Server 2012 OS with a GUI!

    I don't want to hear about how we should switch to server core, minimal server and powershell. We are discussing the GUI, which is Metro and what is wrong with it.

    I like powershell, it helps me automate certain tasks, but it does not replace a GUI. Also it's optional to use.

    I like server core, but it only work with certain roles and applications. Also it's optional to use.

    So please... stick to the topic above: "New Start menu is slowing me down in Server 8"

    Couldn't agree more. I wish people would stop using Powershell as an excuse for a shoddy GUI, they're really missing the point.

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 3:36 PM
  • @Dustyny1,

    "Isn't it obvious that Metro is designed to ween you off of the Win95 gui.. This is the interim solution! I use it all day every day (using it now) and after 3 weeks it's not slow at all, it's just different. "

    I think here's our disconnect. No, it's not obvious at all. metro is HORRID at weaning people off of the Win95 GUI because you can't Windows a metro app and you can't extend Metro beyond a single screen. Those two issues alone make Metro less capable than the Win95b GUI. It's literally...Microsoft Window now. Not to mention the different task bars and other issues. If you believe that a person who is familiar with the Win95 GUI...and runs multiple apps at the same time is going to be ecstatic seeing the limitations of Metro...then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Nobody I've talked to (even at the TechMentor event a few weeks ago in redmond) liked Metro. Mark Minasi didn't like it. Peter Bruzesse didn't like it. Tehy all didn't like it. The ONLY person who seemed to like it was Stephen Rose, the Microsoft Metro evangelist (and he acted like a brain-washed cult member...as Metro was 100% perfect in his egotisitcal eyes). I've talked to about 50 customers so far (not kidding) and zero...as in ZERO...have expressed a like for Metro on the server. On the desktop...they are a bit more forgiving, but the vast majority...even there...are not going to be upgrading and will stick with W7. They just don't want it. Perhaps where you live...admins feel differently. For most companies...not a chance. It's a pain in the butt.

    It's also funny you mention the Windows key...which IMO is the equivalent of the old Wordperfect F key assignments we all had those dorky template cards one our keyboards for. In previous versions of Windows, the Windows key was optional...and most people (believe it or not) did not memorize the Windows key assignments. Now...I guess we'll all be taping sheets of paper next to our monitors so we can figure out how in the $#@#^ we can operate this new system efficiently.

    Again...the way YOU manage YOUR environment is great...but it is NOT the way that a number of companies (I dare say half) want to run theirs. Most companies out there have a handful of servers...and just logging into RDP is EXACTLY what they want. They don't want to be an MCITP, be a powershell guru, and spend all their waking hours deploying SCCM packages just to run 2 AD controllers, a file server, and a SQL database with 50 clients....and frankly, they shouldn't have to be either.

    Also, you deployed a SQL instance in minutes (I'm assuming less than 5)? Really...exactly how? I just deployed an SQL instance and it certainly took me more than a few minutes. You have to get the bits, run the setup for the default instance, configure the service accounts, then re-run the setup again to install a separate instance, then configure the backup, apply the hotfix/rollups, and test. Pray tell..exactly how did Metro help you accomplish all of that in a few minutes?

    • Edited by SAS71 Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:12 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 3:58 PM
  • "I think it's great you can "take down" 100 nodes over a weekend, what ever that means. It's still not relevant to this topic."

    You're right we've strayed off the topic of metro and gone in to a discussion of how an admin should interface with windows if they want to be effective and efficient. 

    "Let me tell you this, when your boss brings in a guy like me to fix the mess that stems from your poorly implemented design, he or she will be asking themselves what they pay you to do. Especially when it takes me 6 months to undo what it took you years to build."

    "I really liked that comment, it really shows your true colors."

    I have no problem showing my true colors. I'm the guy that gets called in to clean up a messes. I redesign em, implement, automate and document.  

    You kids with your new fangled Metro user interfaces, why back in my day we had Windows 95 and it worked just fine, why the hell did these wipper snappers dare to change it! Honestly its been good for laugh.. xD 


    Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:26 PM
  • Dustyny1,

    Is your goal to start a flame war?  It sure seems so.

    This forum is for professionals.  Please act like one.


    • Edited by DennisT. _ Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:33 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:33 PM
  • AH so here is the disconnect.. You are talking about Metro apps which is a user space issue, we/Admins don't use metro apps (maybe later we will) so for now it's a moot point. My point from the very beginning is Metro doesn't really have any bearing on the the server world (minus terminal) it's just a start screen finder/launcher. Why would an admin rely on the start menu when we have so many better tools? Run command, CMD, Powershell, taskbar, hell even the desktop is a better launcher then the start menu. 

    Anyway look at where the user space is going, mobile computing and it's single full screen app is what customers are moving to in droves. I can honestly say I've never seen such a fast adoption rate. IMO it's about simplicity most users just want to open an app and work they don't want anything else. I've been setting up terminal services and desktops like this for years and I've seen countless clients who've done the same. So TO ME it makes total sense and I'd hazard a bet that within a few years most people are going to be more comfortable with the new UI then the old because of it's simplification. 

    You don't use hotkeys? That's a lot of mousing for no reason.. I don't use them all of course but Winkey hotkeys are enormous time savers, not to mention in app hotkeys, on my personal workstation I set my own. BTW you do know the start button is still there right? It appears when you mouse over the lower left corner, no menu of course but it's there no Winkey needed.. No entirely intuative I know (which is why I suggest it not be hidden, earlier in this thread). 

    As for the discussion of how I manage a environment vs how others do.. Again we are in a disconnect. M.S has clearly defined how a modern environment should be managed which is becoming more and more CLI driven, but many people still insist on using the old way of doing things. I admit it's been an easy transition for me because I've always worked on the CLI. I know its a philosophical argument of course, CLI vs GUI but there is a reason why the CLI is still the dominant admin interface. I'm not saying only use the CLI or the GUI, I'm saying you need to use both and doing so will make your life as an admin much easier. 

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:56 PM
  • AH so here is the disconnect.. You are talking about Metro apps which is a user space issue, we/Admins don't use metro apps (maybe later we will) so for now it's a moot point. My point from the very beginning is Metro doesn't really have any bearing on the the server world (minus terminal) it's just a start screen finder/launcher. Why would an admin rely on the start menu when we have so many better tools? Run command, CMD, Powershell, taskbar, hell even the desktop is a better launcher then the start menu. 

    Anyway look at where the user space is going, mobile computing and it's single full screen app is what customers are moving to in droves. I can honestly say I've never seen such a fast adoption rate. IMO it's about simplicity most users just want to open an app and work they don't want anything else. I've been setting up terminal services and desktops like this for years and I've seen countless clients who've done the same. So TO ME it makes total sense and I'd hazard a bet that within a few years most people are going to be more comfortable with the new UI then the old because of it's simplification. 

    You don't use hotkeys? That's a lot of mousing for no reason.. I don't use them all of course but Winkey hotkeys are enormous time savers, not to mention in app hotkeys, on my personal workstation I set my own. BTW you do know the start button is still there right? It appears when you mouse over the lower left corner, no menu of course but it's there no Winkey needed.. No entirely intuative I know (which is why I suggest it not be hidden, earlier in this thread). 

    As for the discussion of how I manage a environment vs how others do.. Again we are in a disconnect. M.S has clearly defined how a modern environment should be managed which is becoming more and more CLI driven, but many people still insist on using the old way of doing things. I admit it's been an easy transition for me because I've always worked on the CLI. I know its a philosophical argument of course, CLI vs GUI but there is a reason why the CLI is still the dominant admin interface. I'm not saying only use the CLI or the GUI, I'm saying you need to use both and doing so will make your life as an admin much easier. 

    If you don't use Metro apps...then why are you commenting on a thread "New Start Menu is slowing me down in Server 8" (as opposed to the old Windows 2008R2 start menu), which is specifically now used to launch Metro-based apps? Why are you telling us to run a command or powershell? That's not what this topic is about. We could do all that in Windows 2008R2.


    Are you just bored? Are you a troll? Lonely? What's up? Go comment on a topic about PowerShell and/ non-Metro-based things. This isn't a thread about how groovy the CLI is. This is a thread on the Metro interface and Start menu that's been added to Windows Server 2012.

    Also, I'm still waiting to hear how you created that SQL instance in a matter of mere minutes. Please, do tell. I'd love to hear from a SQL master on how to do this the correct way next time. How did you do all that work via CLI, without Metro or a GUI?

    • Edited by SAS71 Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:27 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:04 PM
  • Windows server doesn't run Metro Apps. 

    "The Start screen in Windows Server 2012 is a little bit less feature-filled than the one in Windows 8. This is because Windows Server 2012 doesn’t actually include the WinRT/Metro runtime that enables Metro apps to execute under Windows 8. As such, some of the features that make sense in Windows 8 may not translate well into Windows Server 2012." 
    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/networking/how-to-navigate-start-in-windows-server-2012/5850


    Metro is the design language that guides the UI for all of M.S latest products. 
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windows/apps/hh465424

    In Windows server the only Metro we see is the Start screen. Which you don't even have to use.. 
    I explained how to use the start screen in a way that speeds up your workflow. 
    I explained how to work around it with a 3rd party app that gives a start menu
    I also explained how to use the tools we have (Start screen, Powershell & Management tools) so you can get a better workflow in Win2012 Server. A suggestion that would only benefit you. 

    I tried to help and the hostility in the responses I got caused me to lose patience and as DennisT pointed out that is unprofessional of me.. I'm a lot of things but I try not to be a hypocrite. 

    So I'm sorry if you guys don't like the new UI in Windows 8/2012. I can't change it, the moderators in this forum can't change it and chances are M.S is so committed that they can't even change it. You can take my suggestions on how to make your lives easier or you can stick to what works for you. If that means you don't move past Win2008, then don't move, it's a great OS and it will be supported for many years to come.   


    • Edited by Dustyny1 Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:51 PM
    Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:37 PM
  • Yeah, lets deploy start menu hacks on production servers. Brilliant.

    The title of the thread is 100% correct. This is not a step forward. I simply cannot deploy this OS to any of my 200 developers the way it is.

    Call us stupid for not knowing how to write PS on the fly, but I bet .01% of the IT population manages daily tasks on Windows servers with straight up PS CLI.

    Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:42 PM
  • @julia 

    I posted a link to a program that emulates the old style start menu, not a hack.

    I'm not sure what hack you are talking about, are you referring to changing registry keys to get access to the simplified metro start menu?
    http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/quickly-easily-disable-metro-user-interface-windows-8/



    Thursday, September 06, 2012 10:12 PM
  • From Dusty's link:

    "Now, rather than a single click on an obvious screen location to open it, it requires multiple mouse movements into what seem to be random portions of the screen before that single click opens a Start screen for administrators to use."

    Good work Microsoft. Especially when using a VSpehere console. Random mouse movements to find a useless charm bar, how intuitive.

    Friday, September 07, 2012 1:37 AM
  • @julia 

    I posted a link to a program that emulates the old style start menu, not a hack.

    I'm not sure what hack you are talking about, are you referring to changing registry keys to get access to the simplified metro start menu?
    http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/quickly-easily-disable-metro-user-interface-windows-8/



    Any extension of the OS interface that is not supported by Microsoft is a hack. If you don't think all of these start menu replacements are not hacks then I question your credibility. I highly doubt my managers will want random hacks for start menus.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/23/classic_shell_gives_windows_8_a_start_button/

    Friday, September 07, 2012 1:45 AM
  • This is impressive, I can't even reply to this thread as it's so long using IE 9 as it crashes

    Has anyone got any other examples or screenshots of specifc problems with Metro? I've started compiling a list just out of interest really, and would be happy to add examples (if you can send me screenshots that would be great).

    http://david-homer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/why-i-hate-metro-on-windows-server-2012.html


    Thanks,

    Dave

    Network and Server Audit



    • Edited by David Homer Friday, September 07, 2012 11:48 AM
    Friday, September 07, 2012 11:47 AM
  • One you might add to the list would be what someone pointed out earlier (if its true) about Server 2012 not even being able to run Metro apps... so we're getting the crappy UI forced on us for absolutely no reason - it can't even run any apps that the UI was designed for!

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Friday, September 07, 2012 12:34 PM
  • One you might add to the list would be what someone pointed out earlier (if its true) about Server 2012 not even being able to run Metro apps... so we're getting the crappy UI forced on us for absolutely no reason - it can't even run any apps that the UI was designed for!

    My website (free apps I've written for IT Pro's) : www.cjwdev.co.uk My blog: cjwdev.wordpress.com

    Unbelievable, right?

    :)

    Friday, September 07, 2012 3:03 PM
  • @julia 

    I posted a link to a program that emulates the old style start menu, not a hack.

    I'm not sure what hack you are talking about, are you referring to changing registry keys to get access to the simplified metro start menu?
    http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/quickly-easily-disable-metro-user-interface-windows-8/



    That registry modification is NOT supported by Microsoft and will possibly result in support not being able or willing to assist you. This info comes straight from my Microsoft rep. You also cannot use Start8, ClassicShell or any other third-party utilities either. If you don't leave Windows Server 2012 and Windows 8 with the default Metro interface enabled...then you're not going to get support if something happens. You'll need to disable any changes...at the very least...before support will be willing to assist you if they find out you changed the default behavior of the OS this way.

    This was also confirmed by Leo HuangLijun, from Microsoft, in the following thread: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/d1dcf4e5-451b-4d90-86ab-9d89f5799166

    • Edited by SAS71 Friday, September 07, 2012 6:08 PM
    Friday, September 07, 2012 6:04 PM
  • I view the use of tools like Classic Shell as a hack too.  It makes the system much more usable however I cannot rely on something like that in a business environment where a update can suddenly break the hack.  Imagine your entire user base suddenly calling the help desk because last night's update rollout put all the desktops back to the metro interface.
    Monday, September 10, 2012 4:04 PM
  • I've been working all day installing OpsMgr SP1 on a Windows 2012 box and its painful.

    There is simply no way in hell our developers can use this OS remotely.

    I can barely function through a VM Console. Its ridiculous.

    I am trying to give it a chance.

    I cannot. Its a joke trying to work through a VM console with Metro.


    Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:47 PM
  • Just want to chip in as well. The metro UI defiantly destroys my work flow. I love the rest of the OS but I NEED a start menu. 
    Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:09 AM
  • I am very surprised and dissapointed how Microsoft have become so ignorant to customer feedback on the Metro interface.

    I don't like Metro in Windows 8 because it slows me down when I am working, but forget that for a sec because this is about the server.

    No one wants Metro in Server 2012 but Microsoft, and those who actually defend it can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to why it's there. The only argument I see and hear (which isn't an argument) is to use powershell and remote management capabilities (love powershell btw). And yes I will use those features, but that doesn't explain why Metro is there in the first place.

    So please tell me, what is Metro doing in a SERVER operation system, and seriously how hard can it be to add a feature to turn it off.

    ...from a loyal customer who migrated from vmware to hyper-v, lotus notes to Exchange, Ayaya to Lync and System Center, Forefront, Dynamics CRM and soon hopefully Dynamics AX.



    I'll tell you why it's there. Because by next year, rack mount servers and datacenters will be obsolete and the IT elite will be on beaches across the world with their HP slates running domain controllers, while the underlings mill about the streets on their 4G Windows Server 2012 smartphones running Hyper-V in a massive clustered Virtual Public Network. This will allow the whole interweb to run off of battery power, thus saving sooo much time, money, and ENERGY! You will assimilate; resistance is futile! Questions such as why Metro UI is on Server 2012 is counter-productive and will not be tolerated!

    But on the other hand, it could be because this is the next generation of ME-Vista-8. A few will buy, many will try, and all will fail. Just be happy with Server 2008 R2/Windows 7 and wait until the Microsoft begins losing OS sales in corporate and desktop markets. Then this Boolean expression will occur: a) Microsoft realizes they've been getting too uppity again forcing their will on the world, recant and release R2's and SP1's or Server 2013's and Windows 9, AND/OR b) the world will have finally had it with having technology they don't want shoved down their throats and begin pursuing other alternatives (Linux Apple Google).

    The bottom line: if you don't like it, don't buy it. The customer is ALWAYS right because the customer has the money. Microsoft works for us, not the other way around. I'm clicking the button next to the Cancel button, but I will not "Submit"

    Any questions?

    Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:49 AM
  • I have a question...why didn't MS give us a choice?
    Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:04 PM
  • Why am I forced to seeing every damn icon and cannot customize this view?

    Does anyone realize what a god damn mess this is?

    Does anyone care?

    My developers will NEVER ACCLIMATE TO THIS UI.

    4 pages of icons with just a SQL and SYS CENTER Install.

    Rediculous.

    Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:07 PM
  • I have a question...why didn't MS give us a choice?

    I can only surmise that Microsoft could care less about "us" and our needs. I'm about through reviewing the final Windows 8 preview and Server 2012. I've done my testing through VMware because I wanted to tour the OSes without having to go through setting up testing hardware. I'm less concerned with performance (although I must add they've both performed beautifully in a virtual environment) and more interested in what they've done with the GUI. I've come to realize that there will be no option (?) to switch back to the start menu. Therefore I won't be purchasing either Windows 8 or Server2012.

    I have to stress the fact if developers, IT departments, consumers, and others purchase these OSes, then it will only strengthen Microsoft's apathy toward it's user base. I truly hope they will reverse their decision and provide us with the liberty of choosing the way we use their products. Yet given the history of their corporate mentality, freedom, liberty, and self-determination are just outdated concepts left over from the 18th century not suitable for the digital age. But I digress.


    • Edited by BrianEvansNY Wednesday, September 19, 2012 2:03 PM grammar
    Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:43 AM
  • But you guys just don't understand.  We're just ignorant.  they are helping us for our own good because we just don't know any better.

    Any bets on who they're gonna vote for?


    Gary J

    Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:03 AM
  • We decided to pass on buying a stack of desktop OS business licenses.  Since we won't be using Win8 it turns out it'll be cheaper to buy Win7 licenses outright and camp on them for a few years. 

    Rumor has it that Win 9 will actually be a Win8 R2 which means we will likely be using Win 7 until Win 10 arrives (assuming Win8 R2 still has the tablet interface).

    Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:35 PM
  • I personally am disappointed in Microsoft.  All this feedback requesting a start menu button.   At one point one of their employees in this thread even said he would make it on his own.  But still to this date nothing and so we can't really offer 2012 to our subscribers without incurring the high cost of educating them too.  And for each post, it's also likely there are 1000 behind it with the same thoughts.  But still...nothing at all from MS except something to the effect of "this is how it is and how it's going to be".

    BarrySDCA

    Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:45 PM
  • This horrible disgusting view of events is a viral piece of garbage.

    BPA is a joke. Make it go away.

    Oh thanks Kev ... :)

    http://blogs.technet.com/b/kevinholman/archive/2012/06/04/windows-server-2012-red-dashboard-right-after-install-run-bpa.aspx



    Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:53 PM
  • I agree with everyone that is not thrilled about Metro on 2012. Personally I don;t like Metro at all.

    We are seriously considering not going to 2012 Server until this FUBAR is fixed. Microsoft has once again made a ugly, hard to use interface for us. Microsoft, are you really trying to push us away from buying your products or is this another, we will have a third party developer make a fix? It seems the Metro designers are 4th graders. I'll bet most of the UI designers are just as upset as the rest of us because they were forced to create such a ugly, non efficient piece of garbage.

    Just give us an option like all the other OS's to revert back to the traditional interface. No need to remove it. Please, please, I'm begging.
    • Edited by Jonf805 Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:51 PM
    Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:50 PM
  • I stopped working from the Windows Server desktop as much as possible when Server 2008 came out. I've used the command prompt for many years, but I suppose that is because I come from a DOS background and I've worked on Unix systems. I've now started to migrate to PowerShell as much as possible because it is obvious that is the direction Microsoft is heading towards when it comes to management and scripting. As for the start menu, I don't find much a difference with Metro in how I used the start menu since Windows XP/2003. I've always pinned my frequently used apps to the start menu so that I didn't have to dive through folders (All Programs) just to launch an app. I also pin really frequently used apps to the task bar. With my Windows 8 workstation, I've been just grouping my frequently used apps together, on the left, so that I don't have to dive through metro groups to find my apps. To me, Windows 8 isn't really much different than Vista or 7.
    Thursday, September 20, 2012 6:46 PM
  • I spend a good portion of my day remoted into Windows Servers and I do exactly zero system administration. I'm so sick of hearing about how I should be learning to use powershell for things it cannot do. That said, I like the idea of the new start menu but the execution still needs refinement.  There's no button I can press to bring up the start menu from the desktop. There are no folders; everything is just splayed everywhere. Ugh. Though I do look forward to my server apps displaying their status in live tiles, kinda like the promise of active desktop many many years ago.

    Microsoft must really want people to move away from desktop based applications because they are vomit-inducingly ugly in 2012. I tried, I really tried to like it but I don't. It's ugly. There's no denying it. It's just plain ugly. I can't stand working in it. I'm not the only one, which means I would expect to get canned for installing this in my organization. 

    Friday, September 21, 2012 3:31 AM
  • I spend a good portion of my day remoted into Windows Servers and I do exactly zero system administration. I'm so sick of hearing about how I should be learning to use powershell for things it cannot do. That said, I like the idea of the new start menu but the execution still needs refinement.  There's no button I can press to bring up the start menu from the desktop. There are no folders; everything is just splayed everywhere. Ugh. Though I do look forward to my server apps displaying their status in live tiles, kinda like the promise of active desktop many many years ago.

    Microsoft must really want people to move away from desktop based applications because they are vomit-inducingly ugly in 2012. I tried, I really tried to like it but I don't. It's ugly. There's no denying it. It's just plain ugly. I can't stand working in it. I'm not the only one, which means I would expect to get canned for installing this in my organization. 


    You can access the new Start menu from the desktop by moving your mouse to the lower right-hand corner of the desktop, where a side bar will appear. I believe the Start menu button is the third up from the bottom. It works from Remote Desktop as well. I've been using Remote Desktop on Server 2012 myself. PowerShell is a work in progress, but it has come a long way in regards to Microsoft releasing cmdlets for different tasks. The shell itself is actually quite robust. I do all sorts of administration with Windows and I still use cmd32 applications for many tasks. For example, to administrate IIS, I use appcmd.exe. It is a full interface into IIS. Microsoft will most likely be moving away from appcmd, if they haven't started in 2012, in favor of PowerShell. I hope that the appcmd syntax is a close port to whatever they do in PowerShell, because I have become pretty use to it and have many notes and config files based around it. If it isn't then I guess I will just have to learn something new. Also with IIS, there is the option to use the remote IIS mmc console for remote administration. I'm not sure what kind of tasks you are performing on Windows Server, but maybe there are options. In my knowledge, Microsoft has many cmd32 and PowerShell cmdlets to cover most system tasks of Windows.


    • Edited by Brandon.M Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:08 PM
    Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:06 PM
  • Brandon,

    I think you are missing the point. If you administer a flock of servers with many different uses, as I do, S2012 just requires MORE time. PowerShell can do almost anything you'd want to, but you'll taken longer than if you had a GUI app for it. Heck, I could dig a ditch with a spoon if I wanted to, but the guy who is paying me to do it would probably be less than thrilled with my performance. We'll stick with S2008R2 for another 10 years - it will be the XP of the server world.


    Tomás Mason

    Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:42 PM
  • First, I really like Windows Server 2012 - but I really hate the Metro UI! As many have said, it has no place in a server. I'm waiting for good solutions from independent developers that will allow us to get rid of Metro. Even if MS puts up more roadblocks, people will figure out a way around them. Before long, we'll be able to have our cake and eat it too - a great server and with NO Metro!
    Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:30 PM
  • Brandon,

    I think you are missing the point. If you administer a flock of servers with many different uses, as I do, S2012 just requires MORE time. PowerShell can do almost anything you'd want to, but you'll taken longer than if you had a GUI app for it. Heck, I could dig a ditch with a spoon if I wanted to, but the guy who is paying me to do it would probably be less than thrilled with my performance. We'll stick with S2008R2 for another 10 years - it will be the XP of the server world.


    Tomás Mason


    With all due respect, I think you are missing the point of PowerShell and cmd32 scripting. The entire purpose of scripting is to perform a task, a repetitive number of times, on any number of objects, such as hundreds of servers. Are you familiar with 'for' loops? With PowerShell, for example, I can query an entire Active Directory for computer objects and assign those objects to an array using the Get-Content cmdlet. Then from there, I can perform a foreach (for loop) on every object and do something like create a website on ever one of those computers. It could be hundreds of computers that I would perform this one, but the amount of scripting would probably be about a few lines. That is something you cannot do with the Microsoft's built-in GUI tools. There are third party companies that make GUI applications that perform large repetitive tasks, but they are just running scripts in the background, and sometimes they cost a great deal of money.
    • Edited by Brandon.M Monday, September 24, 2012 5:34 PM
    Monday, September 24, 2012 5:33 PM
  • Brandon,

    I think you are missing the point. If you administer a flock of servers with many different uses, as I do, S2012 just requires MORE time. PowerShell can do almost anything you'd want to, but you'll taken longer than if you had a GUI app for it. Heck, I could dig a ditch with a spoon if I wanted to, but the guy who is paying me to do it would probably be less than thrilled with my performance. We'll stick with S2008R2 for another 10 years - it will be the XP of the server world.


    Tomás Mason


    With all due respect, I think you are missing the point of PowerShell and cmd32 scripting. The entire purpose of scripting is to perform a task, a repetitive number of times, on any number of objects, such as hundreds of servers. Are you familiar with 'for' loops? With PowerShell, for example, I can query an entire Active Directory for computer objects and assign those objects to an array using the Get-Content cmdlet. Then from there, I can perform a foreach (for loop) on every object and do something like create a website on ever one of those computers. It could be hundreds of computers that I would perform this one, but the amount of scripting would probably be about a few lines. That is something you cannot do with the Microsoft's built-in GUI tools. There are third party companies that make GUI applications that perform large repetitive tasks, but they are just running scripts in the background, and sometimes they cost a great deal of money.

    PowerShell is indeed powerful, but it really depends from purpose, if it makes sense to use it.

    Administrate multiple servers not always means the nice Enterprise infrastructure within a forest or domain.

    It can as well mean independent machines spread over different companies, which you support as an IT service provider. Here the administrative tasks may not only be partially unique, but a PowerShell script covering them all will usually be impossible to make and to use. Even if, you would have to create the script first (there is a learning curve, which is definitively higher than for the good old batch script, the time you need to create the script and the time you need to test it before demolishing the customer server(s) with it), then copy/paste this to the server via Remote Desktop or similar ways and then still to execute this. This often will take much more time than the good old Start/Administrative Tools/Active Directory - Users and Computers (or use the pinned icon in Start menu or taskbar) and handling the user accounts from there.

    And there is nothing in the Metro UI, which would help you with such tasks.

    So Metro wastes the time of Administrators by requiring more clicks for common tasks and hiding stuff instead of revealing (not to forget stuff like the removal of gadgets, from which some have been useful for monitoring independent remote servers) and PowerShell requires more time to prepare before effectively being able to perform the tasks. And not each, if not to say, most of the non professional administrators know, that something like PowerShell exists, but don't have the time to learn it. With enforcing Metro almost the same happens to these administrators, so upgrading to Windows Server 2012 might be not a good idea despite some benefits just because of this enforcement instead of choice policy.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Monday, September 24, 2012 5:52 PM
  • Brandon,

    I think you are missing the point. If you administer a flock of servers with many different uses, as I do, S2012 just requires MORE time. PowerShell can do almost anything you'd want to, but you'll taken longer than if you had a GUI app for it. Heck, I could dig a ditch with a spoon if I wanted to, but the guy who is paying me to do it would probably be less than thrilled with my performance. We'll stick with S2008R2 for another 10 years - it will be the XP of the server world.


    Tomás Mason


    With all due respect, I think you are missing the point of PowerShell and cmd32 scripting. The entire purpose of scripting is to perform a task, a repetitive number of times, on any number of objects, such as hundreds of servers. Are you familiar with 'for' loops? With PowerShell, for example, I can query an entire Active Directory for computer objects and assign those objects to an array using the Get-Content cmdlet. Then from there, I can perform a foreach (for loop) on every object and do something like create a website on ever one of those computers. It could be hundreds of computers that I would perform this one, but the amount of scripting would probably be about a few lines. That is something you cannot do with the Microsoft's built-in GUI tools. There are third party companies that make GUI applications that perform large repetitive tasks, but they are just running scripts in the background, and sometimes they cost a great deal of money.

    PowerShell is indeed powerful, but it really depends from purpose, if it makes sense to use it.

    Administrate multiple servers not always means the nice Enterprise infrastructure within a forest or domain.

    It can as well mean independent machines spread over different companies, which you support as an IT service provider. Here the administrative tasks may not only be partially unique, but a PowerShell script covering them all will usually be impossible to make and to use. Even if, you would have to create the script first (there is a learning curve, which is definitively higher than for the good old batch script, the time you need to create the script and the time you need to test it before demolishing the customer server(s) with it), then copy/paste this to the server via Remote Desktop or similar ways and then still to execute this. This often will take much more time than the good old Start/Administrative Tools/Active Directory - Users and Computers (or use the pinned icon in Start menu or taskbar) and handling the user accounts from there.

    And there is nothing in the Metro UI, which would help you with such tasks.

    So Metro wastes the time of Administrators by requiring more clicks for common tasks and hiding stuff instead of revealing (not to forget stuff like the removal of gadgets, from which some have been useful for monitoring independent remote servers) and PowerShell requires more time to prepare before effectively being able to perform the tasks. And not each, if not to say, most of the non professional administrators know, that something like PowerShell exists, but don't have the time to learn it. With enforcing Metro almost the same happens to these administrators, so upgrading to Windows Server 2012 might be not a good idea despite some benefits just because of this enforcement instead of choice policy.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    True. I forget that some people may not be running a single Active Directory for their specific environment. It would be a pain not having a centrally managed environment, but I would try to figure out ways to script across multiple environments. I know some PowerShell cmdlets allow you to specify user credentials right within the command. Anyways, my point is that the purpose of scripting is to perform a task multiple times across many objects. I mean, isn't that why scripting was created on computer systems in the first place? If it is a matter of not wanting to learn the scriping interface, then so be it. I would just say that one is missing out by not learning it. It saves so much time.

    I disagree about Metro being really that much less efficient than the old start menu, but that is just my simple opinion. For how I've always used the Start menu, it just looks a full screen version of it. For apps that I use to pin to the Start Menu, I now just drag them over to the far left of the Metro screen. I've been accustomed to using the Start menu button a keyboard for some time now, so that is what I primarily use to access Metro.


    • Edited by Brandon.M Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:32 PM
    Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:11 PM
  • Aren't we forgetting one thing?

    After all, we start calling it windows, why?

    The whole point of everything was making live easyer, by building a GUI, thats why it was called WINDOWS in the first plays remember?!

    We are used to work with a Start Menu!!!

    Let us all be reasonable please, we are used to work with a mouse and a start menu for a very long time now, why change that by making it less efficient?

    The whole point was making it more efficient right?

    Servers are being administrated/managed by the most Administrators with a mouse and a GUI, and let us please keep doing that!

    Rene van S.

    Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:42 PM
  • Personally I have mixed feelings about it on both Desktop and Server. Thinking outside the box, I can see some uses for the Live Tiles by using them as sensors. You could call up the start menu and see live tiles sifting from Green, Yellow, Red backgrounds giving you a quick at a glance info on hardware/os/software performance/monitoring stats. Kind of surprised you couldn't do that built in but I can see future apps enabling these kinds of tiles. For the odd non Administrator with login rights, you could configure Tiles to just the apps relevant to their tasks...

    From a desktop perspective there are times where it slows me down. I write a lot of scripts and sometimes I need to copy a path. In Windows 7 I click the Windows key and start typing a path to find it say C:\Program Files\..... Then I just copy the path and paste it into my script. I do the same thing if I'm manually promoting some files from source and destination. The Advantage of Windows 7 is I can see my script or other paths while I'm entering in a path. I can't see this with the Windows 8 start screen since it's full screen. Not as much as a problem with dual screens but the same applies for examples like following steps of a KB through manual instructions. I'm a quick typer and if a KB says rename PATH\File I can press Windows key and start typing while I'm looking at the KB. Can't do it as easily with Windows 8 unless I open a file explorer first. Examples like this do slow you down.

    From a starting/navigating through apps. I don't have as much of a problem. Do you guys really use the start menu in Windows  Desktop/Server? Unless I've been working an all nighter or having a brain freeze for other reasons, I never navigate throught the start menu. On Windows 7/2k8 I simply Press Windows Key and type cmd or regedit or mstsc /admin you name it. I don't find it to be that big of a deal with the new start screen as I just do the same thing most of the times faster than the tile screen comes up. With that said, one solution I have is to add the Internet Explorer toolbar. At least I can type CMD or Regedit or even a path. Only problem with it is that if I make a typo like regedt, the tool bar opens IE assuming it's a URL. So I could be happy with a contextual start toolbar like the Windows 7 without the start menu. This would be awesome if they could build it into both Desktop/Server and I think it would make a lot of people happy.

    There are a lot of valid points for having the option to disable Tiles in server, RDP comes to mind. Personally I think Microsoft was too agressive in its stance. For Tablets have the new start screen. For Desktops it would have been better to make it an option of starting in desktop. They could have released keyboards with a TILE button next to the Windows button. Pressing it brings up/down the Tile Screen. No one would have had a problem with this. At the very least, they should have just made the legacy Start Menu an option. What's the big deal if it's there or not? There are a lot of possibilities, to me what has always made Windows so great is customization/flexibility.




    • Edited by shoey5 Sunday, October 28, 2012 10:17 PM
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 10:13 PM
  • All well and good ... but you still need to view in context of the MS rationale presented to the world - a consistent inteface from phone to server.

    Wonderful - only one problem - you still can't buy the damn phone. http://shop.sprint.com/mysprint/shop/phone_wall.jsp?cookieRedirect=true&filterString=smartphone&isDeeplinked=true&INTNAV=ATG:HE:Smartphones

    I bought a Samsung Galaxy SIII back in July and even though I'm not anywhere near contract renewal, I've been so happy with the phone that I'll probably pay full price to get the Galaxy Note II so that I can pass my SIII down to my son who is currently suffering with an HTC Touch Pro 2 with Windows Mobile 6.5 on it.

    Other than the dubious, yet to be determined fate, of Win 8 tablets, MS has forced us all to use an interface that may - or may not - work well on tablets, while we wait for a phone we can't buy, and we have to use an interface on desktops and servers that does nothing to increase our efficiency.  There are tons of news reports of putting users in a room with Win 8 who just give up after about 5 mins trying to figure out how to use it.

    I was on the MS site for Surface and decided to print one of their camparison documents using my Win 8 test desktop system.  I searched for 10 mins trying to figure out how to print the damn thing.  Fortunately I knew that when all else failed I could use CTRL-P and do the deed.  Great news, we've now come full circle and are right back where we were when we used Word Perfect, memorizing keyboard shortcuts!

    Maybe I'm just too old, having done this since 1983 (still have my DOS 1.0 disks, both MS-DOS and PC-DOS) and it's just too late for me to learn new, wait, I mean old tricks again.

    MS better wake up before the whole ship passes them by. I'll be reading up on and testing Linux the rest of the week.


    Gary J

    Sunday, October 28, 2012 10:53 PM
  • Hello All,

    I am locking this thread as this thread has more than 2oo replies now and it's taking huge time to load the page.

    This thread has been split and new thread has been created. I would request to use the new thread for future replies/suggestions.

    Here is the URL for new thread.

    New Start menu is slowing me down in Server 8 - PART 2 

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winserver8gen/thread/ad8949f1-894c-4384-9f1b-caaab17eb5ca

    Thanks


    Regards, Santosh

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    Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:36 PM