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Poor Host System Performance after RC1 Update (RTM as Well)

    Pregunta

  •  Note: This is a "growth" from forum http://forums.technet.microsoft.com/en-US/winserverhyperv/thread/3dc7af06-3be1-4ebb-9108-d685aef06ecd.

    After installing the Hyper-V RC1 update, the OS started to perform very poorly in a few areas. I experienced a decrease in performance as if my graphic card had an issue. The system just became stricken with lag when:
    • Opening photos
    • Initially loading a video
    • Resizing Zune
    • Connecting to and Resizing a RDP session
    • Browser window (seems spontaneous though most likely the content loaded)
    • Visual Studio 2008 (only) property drop down lists
    My system hardware includes:
    • Intel Q6600
    • MSI nForce 680i MB
    • 4x 2GB Corsair XMS 2 DDR 2
    • MSI GeForce 8800
    • 2x WD Raptor 10k rpm
    • 2x 22" Gateway LCDs
    I have tried many different versions of display drivers yet it made no difference. I have tested this in every theme but only with desktop experience installed. Also, games still play fantastic though the transition from the desktop to a fullscreen 3d game hangs for a considerable time as does the transition from a windowed WMP video into fullscreen (and back). Another user in the forum above tried more detailed testing and came up with the RC1 update. I haven't heard anyone else mention this situation other than him.

    Thanks,
    Zac


    Addition:
    I should probably mention that it affects audio playback durring the time of lag/jitter. Music and sounds start to break appart just as the mouse and responsiveness in general.
    • Editado Zac T B domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 22:56 Addition
    domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 2:27

Respuestas

  • Just to be clear - there is no "quick fix" here.  Fixing this in Hyper-V is a very large investment, and offering to just disable WDDM would mean asking all video card manufacturers to develop two sets of video drivers for Windows.

    Trust me - we do hear your pain and understand the scenario - and if there was a quick fix it would already be in the product.  But there is not - which is why we are in this situation.


    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    martes, 03 de febrero de 2009 2:24
    Propietario

Todas las respuestas

  • Which OS is performing poorly? The parent OS, the OS on the physical machine? Or the OS in a virtual machine?

    Your title line mentions poor performance in RTM. RTM is not just for the Hyper-V server, it is also for the virtual machines. You should apply the final version of Hyper-V instead of using RC1. Download the patch to upgrade to the final version of Hyper-V: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=F3AB3D4B-63C8-4424-A738-BADED34D24ED&displaylang=en. After installing it, upgrade Integration Services on all of your virtual machines.

    Here are a few comments about graphics in Hyper-V virtual machines. Hyper-V is intended for supporting server applications. Translation: Little or no video interaction. The graphics capabilities of a Hyper-V virtual machine are quite limited. Your Hyper-V virtual machines are not using your 8800 video card. They are using an emulated 4 MB video card. Both the Vista graphics and gaming graphics in Hyper-V are rated at 1.0. You can't expect much video performance out of 4 MB.
    domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 3:10
    Moderador
  • The performance of the host degraded significantly when RC1 or RTM of Hyper-V is installed.  The guests work great other then opening the initial window (see above comment about RDP having poor performance). 

    Just opening IE or Firefox takes 100% CPU, scrolling down on a website with any graphics takes 100% cpu, opening any media files also maxes out the cpu.  After the 20 to 30 seconds to open the things the cpu utilization goes back to normal until it has to render new graphics.  I originally found this after updating to RC-1 on my machine and trying to give a class on Server 2008.  It was kind of embarrassing touting how great 2008 is when it was performing terribly on the machine I was demoing with.  I was hoping that RTM would resolve the issue, but it didn't.  If I remove the Hyper-V role everything goes back to wonderful performance.

    domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 15:31
  • Do you have a single network card shared by all? I find that when I do large file copies, everything slows down a lot.

    domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 19:24
    Moderador
  • Sorry I had the the word host in there but I guess when I was retyping it was edited out. Definitly the host os as I can play games perfectly on it. Games, however, initially start off horible just like loading the files I or George mentioned. As for the virtual machines, they have always been updated to the new components if not rebuilt completely (to better organize the snapshots). Any vpc I connect to, unless performing the installations, would be through rdp. I have two seperate network cards, one is used only by the virtual machines. But this situation occurs with the vpc's on, off, saved, non-existant. As George mentioned, it hasn't been like this forever, the RC1 update is when it started. He has tested this with clean system installs as well as just removing the hyper-v role (as it removes/disables/etc any of the updates associated to it).
    domingo, 29 de junio de 2008 19:56
  • After reading more about this, this seems that you and others are experiencing something I haven't seen. But I did see slow performance over the weekend. I installed a third party application into a virtual machine. It performed horribly and so did the parent partition. What is significant is that the third party application required a Microsoft Loopback Adapter configured with a nonroutable IP address. There was a conflict between this and some part of the virtual networking. Using a different nonroutable IP address that didn't conflict resolved the performance problems.
    lunes, 30 de junio de 2008 17:29
    Moderador
  • There is a very low chance it is related to networking hardware/adapters (virtual or other). This occurs immediately after the RC1 update is installed on the host system; with or without virtual machines and virtual network adaptors created. Basically once the computer is restarted from the update even on a clean install the system starts to perform poorly.
    It seems highly likely that the issue is occurring between the host os/system and the RC1 and/or RTM update(s). When I have a chance I'm going to create an item in the Windows Server 2008 Connect site. George, if you want to put your "official" two cents in, I'll include with mine.
    This is a real problem because of all the MOSS/SQL/PS implementations my company does, I've been pitching Hyper-V but currently I'm in no position to demo. I'm trying as hard as I can to have them hold off from any more VMWare products...

    lunes, 30 de junio de 2008 20:03
  • Dumb question - but if you disable the desktop experience feature, does that make any difference?
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 5:05
    Propietario
  • I definitely can confirm that problem.

    I have just installed a brand new Win 2008 Server std., updated Hyper-V role to RTM and created just one guest for testing. I did not install software on the host and did not twaek any settings.

    While performance inside the guest is acceptable, host performance is extremely poor. It takes around 1min to start Server Manager while looking at Task Manager the server is doing nothing at all.

    /Klaus
    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 7:48
  • Mike, far from dumb but yes, it still happends when the desktop experience feature is uninstalled.

    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 14:05
  • I have the same experience that Zac has.  Doesn’t seem to matter if I have desktop experience on or not, expect that performance is worse when you turn transparencies on.  That is to be expected though because transparencies are graphic intensive and the machine is having problems with graphic intense applications.  BTW, pre install of Hyper-V with Aero and  everything turned on runs great on this machine.  If I install Hyper-V with Aero it puts the cpu at 100% and takes 20 seconds to resize a window.


    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 19:26
  • George, could you rephrase that last post. Are you saying a clean install of hyper-v with the slipstream RTM install method creates a perfect system (as in pre-RC1 update)?
    or
    I think you are mentioning the situation of how everything ran smooth before the RC1 compaired to now with RC1 or with RTM updates installed.

    NOTE: It is the initial loading or transition of the graphic intensive applications. Although that is almost missleading as that opening a 500kb jpg would fall into this category. Also, I can run the latest games. At first when the game loads it sits there just striving to transition from windows to the game, once the game is up and going it works FANTASIC (better than Vista)... however, if I say, hit alt-tab and transition back to windows, the system staggers at 100% cpu. Then something 'catches' and we are running. If I alt-tab back into the game, expect to stagger again, then once that is over with (mine is approx 30-60 seconds for games, 30 seconds for image, video, RDP) the game goes back to rendering fine. I should note that I have one heck of a wind tunnel for a tower so heat wouldn't be a problem.

    The root of all this is the initial transition of a window/application. Once say an image is opened, I can zoom in with ease and scroll around it. Videos are similar; In WMP, when I load a video the system just boggs down for approx 30 seconds then plays perfectly. I have the ability to skoot all over the video and pause, resume without problem. However, transfering to fullscreen is the same experiance as alt-tabing from a game; resizing is similar to a photo but not as bad and if I hit the stop button, the pc staggers just as it does with the initial loading the video. If I just open WMP without any video initializing the loading, it works great (probably why stop, which unloads the video halters everything).

    NOTE 2: None of these problems have anything to do with hosted virtuals as it happends with and without creating them (or virtual networks for that matter). George and myself have pretty hefty machines so resources aren't an issue. We both however have NVidia cards, mine is a GeForce 8800GTX and his is a Quatro. Perhaps something in the RC1 update changed the way the video card drivers interact with Hyper-V. Oh yea, Connecting to a child performs the same as RDP, WMP, photos, etc...


    @Klaus, what are your system specs?
    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 19:42
  • What I mean to say is that before Hyper-V is on the system it runs wonderful.  After Hyper-V (RC1 or RTM) is on the system performance degrades.

    I am seeing exactly the same thing that Zac is.  For example, once an AVI is started and has stopped being choppy, it works great.
    martes, 01 de julio de 2008 20:50
  • Same thing started with RC1 on my 4 GB Dell Precision 290 and IBM T61 laptop.  RTM did not fix it.

    Not a show stopper, but my VM friends laugh at me, so this isn't good PR for Microsoft.  Other than this glitch, I really love Hyper-V.

    Guest can be shut off and the problem is still there.  It does go away when you remove the role, and returns when you add the role back in.

    MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 03 de julio de 2008 21:08
  • Just wanted to add my $0.02.  I too am experiencing the same problem.  Seems the host system video performance is very poor and CPU usage is very high any time I try to open photos, view videos on websites, start playing games.  This usually clears up after a few minutes.  Did notice too that trying to open a video in full screen also caused audio jitter for the 2-3 minutes the host system tried to open the video.  Sometimes the video looked up and Windows then asked me to close Internet Explorer.

    Updating drivers for my SATA AHCI controllers, video card, sound card, NICS all made no difference.  Uninstalled the RTM Hyper-V role and this problem went away. 

    My system hardware:
    Intel E6600
    ASUS P5B Deluxe
    2 x 2GB OCZ DDR2 PC6400
    EVGA 8800 GTS - Nvidia driver 175.19
    1 x WD Raptor
    2 x WD WD400YR


     

    sábado, 05 de julio de 2008 8:00
  • I have the same issue. Being an MCSE student I run Server 2008 as Workstation OS. After installing Hyper-V for testing, my host system became slower. When I open IE, my music (I have Winamp running all the time) gives a small hickup. When I start a game, the music even stops for a few seconds. Uninstalling the service solves everything. I have updated RC1 to RTM, but the issue remains.

    When I started a game, I got this error, after my music froze and my screen blacked out for 10 seconds:
    Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered.
    This is part of the nVidia driver system.

    So at the moment, I am suspecting nVidia drivers of this problem. As far as I can see, everyone in this topic is using an nVidia displaycard as well. I haven't checked the specs of the laptops mentioned here though.

    Next week I will be switching to an ATI/AMD VGA card, maybe this will solve the problem. If so, we know it's the nVidia driver.

    Specs:
    Intel Q6600 2.4 @ 3.0 GHz
    Gigabyte P35C-DS3R
    4x 1GB Corsair PC6400 4-4-4-12 @ 800
    Asus GeForce 6600GT - 169.25 driver
    • Editado Ruud van Strijp sábado, 05 de julio de 2008 18:12 Forgot to mention I'm using RTM version.
    sábado, 05 de julio de 2008 18:09
  •  I tried troubleshooting this some more and I agree that this might be an Nvidia driver problem.  I installed an old beater PCI video card and used the Standard VGA driver.  The problem went away.  This lead me to try the Standard VGA driver with my Nvidia 8800 GTS and it also worked fine.  As soon as I installed the Nvidia driver the problem reappeared.  I don't have any newer non-Nvidia PCIe cards to test with but would be curious to others results with an ATI card.  I submitted a bug report to Nvidia for what its worth about the issue.
    • Editado NPrice sábado, 05 de julio de 2008 20:56 typo
    • Marcado como respuesta Mike Sterling [MSFT]Owner domingo, 06 de julio de 2008 20:51
    • Desmarcado como respuesta Zac T B jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:24
    sábado, 05 de julio de 2008 20:55
  • The ATI card came in today, and as expected: Without the nVidia drivers, Hyper-V runs smooth as a hot knife through butter :P

    Next step is to find out what exactly gives the problems... A certain piece of the ForceWare drivers, or does Hyper-V call some API's that are strange or so...
    • Propuesto como respuesta Ruud van Strijp martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:22
    • Marcado como respuesta Zac T B martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:23
    • Desmarcado como respuesta Zac T B jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:24
    martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:22
  • Thanks for the update about the ATI card and was what I suspected too.  I have tried many versions of Nvidia'a Forceware drivers from the last 18 months.  All of them caused the issue though the really old one v100 era seemed to be marginally better.  For the moment I have had to give up and use the Standard VGA driver. 

    One of the memebers of the Windows Virtualization team replied earlier and basically said that they are aware of the issue but do not recommend using Hyper-V in this manner either.  Can't say that I blame them but only hope someone fixes it.
    martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:25
  • Thanks everyone for helping narrow down the problem. At first I felt like I was more crazy than usually. So now I should ask if anyone knows a better way than connect to get this bug addressed?

    martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:26
  • Awe man this can't be. Just for all of us consultants as well as the Microsoft employee's who have been using Virtual PC or VMWare... on their notebooks to present software to clients, this is not good. A random guess would be that 50% are ATI, 50% are NVidia and 10% are Intel (I know, I know). Anyway, I already have Server 2008 with Hyper-V on the workstation I've been referencing my comments about as well as one of my two HP notebooks. They are both fast but the slower of the two I just remembered is the one with ATI which I don't have Server 2008 installed on.

    This would have been a fantastic portable demo machine:
    Windows Server 2008 w/ Hyper-V installed on the notebook.
    Hyper-V setup to use the second hdd bay for the virtuals.

    And VPCS of:
    Server Core as DHCP & DC
    SQL Server 2005
    SharePoint 2007

    That was just for starters, I planned on setting up Exchange and then Communication Server...

    I already had some clients interested while I displayed Hyper-V through Live Meeting with my workstation. I figured that if they saw all that going on in a < 3ghz dual core laptop with < 2gb ram, Windows Server 2008 would be a no brainer. As of the RC1 update, I can't even use Live Meeting effectively on my workstation. It will hang for almost a minute while switching shared content.

    I'm wailing as loud as I can, Virtualization Team can you hear me!?
    martes, 08 de julio de 2008 22:45
  • Wow, I see my laptop that has the issue isn't NVidia, but Intel 965.  So now I'm guessing we're not looking for a new driver from NVidia, but instead a hotfix from Microsoft.  Does someone from Microsoft monitor this list?  Has this issue been reported?
    MVP - SCCM
    lunes, 14 de julio de 2008 15:54
  • I also have this issue. I'm running a Q6600, 4GB RAM, 2x WD 500GB, an evga 9800GTX, and a DFI X38 motherboard. While I had hyper-v installed, my system was very sluggish, and I was greatly considering just wiping this install. However, as soon as I disabled hyper-v, the system is very responsive again, even with all the eye-candy enabled. I didn't actually set up a VM by that point, I was more worried about solving the performance issues first.
    lunes, 14 de julio de 2008 23:09
  • Hi Guys, having exactly the same issue:

    Phenom 7950
    Gigabyte 790x Motherboard
    8gb Corsair RAM
    7900gt
    2 x 500gb SATA RAID 0

    Is it confirmed its limited to NVIDIA cards?

    Trying to do my 2008 Server Studies and System is running like ____, so was gonna go get a new Radeon 4850.

    Thanks Guys
    viernes, 18 de julio de 2008 4:28
  • This is working as intended. Remember, when you add the Hyper-V role to a system, the installed OS becomes the parent partition, and is actually running virtualized as well (just with access to devices installed in the system). Best practices for Hyper-V include running it as the only role or feature on the system.
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    jueves, 24 de julio de 2008 18:05
    Propietario
  • My question then would be why does it only happen to some systems and why did it only appear in RC1?  On the server 2008 as a workstation forum there was a post about people that changed video cards and updated chipset drivers and this went away.  It seems to me that if this was intentional it would happen to all Hyper-V systems.  Also, this seriously kills other guests OS's because it eats 100% of the CPU.  When I try to open up a guest it take 100% CPU time for almost a minute.  During that time the other systems become unresponsive.  
    viernes, 25 de julio de 2008 19:38
  • No.  Let's not sweep this under the carpet.  If Microsoft wants Hyper-V to be competitive with VMWare, it will have to address issues like this.  Perception alone should drive a resolution to this issue, but this is also a performance issue.  Anyone who experiences the problem will not take Hyper-V to be a serious competitor.  This is a good product with great potential.  This year, all eyes are on virtualization.  We don't want negative buzz this early in the game.
    MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 26 de julio de 2008 4:02
  • I'm checking with the dev team to confirm that my post is the case. My understanding was that the perf differential in the parent partition (especially if you add the desktop experience) was expected.
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    martes, 29 de julio de 2008 17:51
    Propietario
  • Just to be clear, this isn't a desktop experience issue.  We all expect that turning it on can cause performance issues, we all also realize that best practice dictates that Hyper-V be the only role installed.  The issue is that once RC1 and now RTM of Hyper-V was released anything graphical in the host OS has serious performance problems.  This includes opening a guest OS through Hyper-V manager on the server, downloading a patch from Microsoft (because IE has to scroll through graphics), reading a document that has screen shots, as well as any of the desktop experience type of things (pictures, video, music, etc).  I cannot in good conscience recommend Hyper-V to any of my customers because if they have the need to do any of the above things (all of which could easily be expected to happen other then the desktop experience stuff) the CPU will race to 100% for up to several minutes and all of the guest OS's will become unresponsive.

    Previous to RC1 I had none of the performance issues described.  The instant I installed RC1 these became an issue.
    miércoles, 30 de julio de 2008 4:22
  • I'm going to emphasize on George's post. Graphical is used here in the sense of anything that is rendered. So if you right click a guest and connect, everything locks up. IE, everything locks up. Open an XPS or PDF and the system locks up. There is not a single way I would see a developer working on this, noticing this, and excepting this. We all are not talking small here, this is an extreme problem. I can't think of anything to compare this to.
    jueves, 31 de julio de 2008 15:52
  • yeah great thread !

    i thought that I am having problem with my drivers or sth but after reading this thread i know that this is nvidia issue. So this thread is bookmarked and I will check it for solution.

    My PC specification:

    C2Q 9300
    Gigabyte EP35c-DS3R Intel P35 chipset
    4GB Ram
    Nvidia 8800 GT


    lunes, 04 de agosto de 2008 18:54
  • Hey Guys -

    THANK YOU for this thread.  I've literally been trying to figure out what's wrong with my workstation for weeks now.  About my computer:

    Dell Dimension 9200: nVidia 7900GS, 4GB RAM Core2 Duo 2.8GHz, P965 chipset, SigmaTel Audio.  I can't tell you all of the things I did to try to diagnose my performance issues.  I understand that Hyper-V is considered a server role, but many workstations (like mine) need it.  Basically, the "host" OS becomes really choppy (sound chops, video freezes for about 200ms, very erratic performance).  It's acts like some hardware interrupt is not letting go of some exclusive resource, and for 100-200ms EVERYTHING in the OS stops. 

    I replaced the nVidia card with a ATI 4850 (great card, but you can heat your home in the winter with it) and the integrated audio with a Creative Audigy X-Fi.  No improvement.  Removed SATA devices, upgraded to the latest Intel P965 drivers (8.2.0.1011).  No improvement.  Turned of Themes, Defender, Firewall, everything I possibly could.  No improvement.  Removed the Hyper-V RTM Role, and BOOM, the system smoothed out -- no more "hiccups" where the system freezes for 100-200ms, just smooth goodness. 

    MSFT -- I'm OK with paying a perf penalty for Hyper-V, but there's something WRONG here with the system (is it the P965 drivers aren't good enough for virtualization, or is it Hyper-V itself?)  Having the system pause and "chop" on high CPU utilization isn't acceptable, even in a server environment where it's not as pronounced.  My recommendation to you:  stress test Hyper-V on the P965 chipset.  Play some music while taxing the system -- change video modes while the music plays or launch a 3D app on the host -- that's the most pronounced way to realize the stutters in the system.

    This is a development workstation, so IMHO it's totally appropriate to expect a level of responsiveness with Hyper-V installed as well.   I guess Hyper-V just isn't ready yet.  Other than this, I love it, though.  Too bad.  MSFT, you need to escalate this. 

    -Dave Markle
    domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 16:52
  • So since the host is working in a virtualized environment, I figured I'd install the integration services stuff to see if that helped.  No dice.

    I have tried standard VGA and now the Microsoft virtual machine video bus drivers too on the host.  In both cases, the slowdowns are gone.  One thing to note is that hardware acceleration is enabled with both of these drivers.  With the NVidia Quadro 285 drivers, that's grayed out.  Did the RC1 change forget to include host acceleration?

    Standard VGA is no real solution since the drivers rarely match the monitor's resolution and there is no dual screen option.

    I'd like this issue resolved because it's obvious Hyper-V is taking a beating in the forums and blogs (example A, B, C).  Anyone who has seen the problem, will never take Hyper-V seriously.  I'd also like to see Microsoft use it all the time for demos.  Generally we see MS demo products using Virtual PC and they always have to apologize for the performance.  There would be nothing to apologize for if they were using Hyper-V without this issue and in fact, they could run many more machines concurrently.

    MVP - SCCM
    domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 19:01
  • Brian Mason said:

    I'd like this issue resolved because it's obvious Hyper-V is taking a beating in the forums and blogs (example A, B, C).  Anyone who has seen the problem, will never take Hyper-V seriously.

    To be fair, since my blog post is referenced as Example A, I was not giving Hyper-V a beating.  I was simply pointing out that Hyper-V is not, in my opinion, fit for the workstation.  Hyper-V isn't pitched as a workstation product though, it's intended to be applied in a server environment (running a headless Server Core installation even, if you can).  I simply hoped it would work as a workstation product, but found otherwise.

    I didn't find anything that made me think it was a horrible server-side product.  I wouldn't dream of putting VMware Server ESX on my laptop either, now I know the same is true of Hyper-V.  It's not because they're defective products, they're just not intended for me to watch hours of "The Office" on them. ;)

    The real issue here is that Microsoft VPC and Microsoft Virtual Server are both disappointment when compared to even the free offerings from VMware, which is what drove me to give Hyper-V a shot.  I had hoped Hyper-V would fill that need since I'm already running Win2k8, but in my eyes the sensible thing for Microsoft to do is improve their workstation virtualization products (gimme a VPC-V ;) rather than hindering Hyper-V with code to improve graphics or allow me to bind to wireless NICs (which Hyper-V developers have said would be a very cumbersome task).
    • Editado Mikey Cooper lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 17:29 stupid typo...
    lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:02
  • Sorry to call you out specifically.  Those were just some random samples of negative Hyper-V posts I found.  There are lots more.  And since I love the product, I really want others to love it too.

    If you had tried Hyper-V back before RC1, you'd have seen that there was no slowdown issue.  That it was just what you were looking for when you tested it; something that could replace Virtual PC and Virtual Server.  Something that would be perfect to demo products because it is so fast and clean that you could run many machines at the same time without feeling slowdowns.  Something the presenter would never have to apologize for and say "it's a VM".  Prior to RC1, you'd never know if a machine was a VM guest or host or if it was physical.  The performance was outstanding.

    My hope is that there is some easy fix here to return that performance since it was solid until RC1.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:13
  • Mikey,

    Hyper-V kind of needs a beating, maybe a silent one. As for a Server 2008 workstation, this should be a perfect one. I've been using it from the beta's and man it has felt like a dream machine. It is really all about the update bits for Hyper-V because Win Server 2008 RTM with Hyper-V RC0 LOADED with server apps (MOSS Ent, SQL Ent, AD, etc) on the host and various guest machines which were also LOADED (MOSS, SQL, all the dev tools) still ran like a dream machine. I had/have some big plans as I can run Server 2008 w/ Hyper-V on my laptops (with wireless nic) with a whole simulation environment setup. Right now with those particular issues, well it is hard translating them because when most people hear of them they respond, as some of the responses in this thread, that it is the typical performance hits you would expect to occur when running another machine virtually. However, the true problem lies within the drivers somewhere.

    I really am thinking that we have finally started to convey the problem properly though. This, as a workstation or a server, is not working as intended. I'm not sure how many individuals are effected but it appears that us unlucky ones are of a smaller group. One that spilled through the RC1 testing holes.

    For myself I only truly realized what happened once I had already updated to the RTM version. If you have the ability, try a fresh Server 2008 install and leave out any Hyper-V updates. You will quickly notice that the hopes you had are really there, they're just hidden somewhere...

    As Brian just mentioned as I was typing, hopefully there is some easy fix because it was working before.

    Just as an observation: We have all been pointing fingers at NVidia (usually stuff's their fault) but what I've been noticing is that people with this issue are typically using either the Intel Quad Core or Core 2 Duo machines. There is the exception of that one guy who is having the problems and he is only using an Intel graphics card and the fellow David Markle who said he tried both NVidia and ATI. David has a Core 2 Duo though and I'm not sure what the other guy is using. This is a little interesting.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    Zac
    lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:26
  • I throughout the entire beta never even tried using it as a workstation... I am as is stated tempted to give this a go if performance was actually that good before.... My next rebuild was going to be a Server 2008 Workstation though I wasn't going to put Hyper-V on it.

    Edit: Stop Online shopping, its 2am, A couple of new HDD's and P2V my current workstation into a 2008 RTM with RC0 Hyper-V :P

    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    • Editado Stephen Edgar lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:53 I'm tired :D
    lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:32
  • Well don't give up just yet. Performance was good enough before the RC1 update to make me commit my best efforts to help get this issue resolved.
    lunes, 11 de agosto de 2008 15:40
  • I wonder if it's a chipset compatibility thing... How many of us here are running the Intel P965 or G965 chipsets? (Device Manager -> System Devices -> "Intel P965/G965 PCI Express Port Root"?

    You know, I would certainly be retiscent to use Hyper-V in a *serious* production scenario if MSFT can't get it performing even acceptably in a single-user workstation scenario.  I understand that hypervisors are a tough thing to program, but hey, that's the market.

    Now go forth, my friends in Redmond, and COMPETE by creating a comptitive product!

    miércoles, 13 de agosto de 2008 1:27
  • "Intel ICH8 Family PCI Express Root Port" on my machine.
    miércoles, 13 de agosto de 2008 14:42
  • ICH8 here as well.
    miércoles, 13 de agosto de 2008 16:01
  • ICH7 and ICH8 here.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 13 de agosto de 2008 16:11
  • ICH8 here.
    miércoles, 13 de agosto de 2008 17:36
  • You can add me to the list of the affected. I'm using Hyper-V in a production environment on HP DL380-G5 servers with no apparent performance issues. The HP Servers use an old ATI video chip.

    I installed Server 2008 with the Hyper-V role on a Dell Latitude D620 (4GB RAM) with an NVIDIA QUADRO NVS 110M video card. Video performance slowed to a crawl. I had to remove the Hyper-V role and all is well again. Note that I just installed the role; I was not running any virtual machines.

    I love Hyper-V and Server 2008. Hate this performance issue. Would really love it if this gets fixed soon.

    Cheers,
    Peter
    miércoles, 20 de agosto de 2008 17:49
  • Hello,

    same exact problem here.
    I have a Lenovo T61P running a nVidia Quadro FX 570M.

    To identify the issue root I had to install various times a fresh copy of Windows Server 2008 standard. In the final one:

    1) I completed the installation, logged in, added the "Desktop Experience" feature and the "Hyper-v" role, rebooted, logged back in, tried opening pictures and looking at videos and everything worked well

    2) I then installed the latest nVidia drivers for my laptop, rebooted, logged back in and suddenly opening even a 10KB jpg takes 10+ seconds

    The issue is NOT due to the "Desktop Experience" feature because in another test installation I did not install this feature and yet I experienced this issue.

    Also, the issue is not due to 3 Hyper-v services running, because even turning them off the issue still stays.

    I tried changing the order of installation of the Hyper-v update, the Hyper-v role and the nVidia drivers but nothing seems to work.

    To the moment the only solution is to run the Microsoft graphic drivers and not nVidia's.

    Unfortunately since nVidia drivers do not exist for Windows Server 2008 and using Vista's drivers on a Windows Server 2008 machine is something done at one's risk, a ticket cannot even be opened with nVidia.

    The issue is reasonably due to the fact that both the nVidia graphic card and Hyper-v use the virtualization capabilities of the CPU.

    Regards,
    Bob

    miércoles, 20 de agosto de 2008 18:21
  • I know that everyone here is using NVidia except for one fellow. I know with NVidia we are all using one version or another of the same GeForce driver. Those of us with NForce MB's are using the ForceWare. So basically beyond the standard (documented) version changes, we are all using the same drivers. I'm not sure about the GeForce Go cards though. Anyway, ATI, again I'm not familiar, it's been a long long time; if I remember right and looking at their website I'm not to sure but it seems that they have a few different cards using different drivers. Perhaps some driver sets are effected from both manufacturers. The main target server hardware is probably using something Quadro family, if they even have that kind of power. So this wouldn't come up. I just don't understand how it slipped through the cracks as us in the community and partner programs are most definitely going to run this locally, laptop or perhaps a small server at the office. At least to get the ball rolling. Most of us have systems that would be effected by this. I think I should also add a signature to my posts making sure to reiterate the fact that desktop experience is not the issue.


    *Not a Desktop Experience Issue*
    *My blank screensaver chucks the system into a halt for 30 seconds or so*
    miércoles, 20 de agosto de 2008 18:38
  • OK, so going back to success with the standard VGA driver.  It works, but it's extremely limited.

    I've used the XP x64 drivers and the issue has gone away.  Response is back to normal and all the driver functionality is back (true color, dual monitor, etc.).

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 14:52
  • I know you are really clear but I just want to double check. You installed the XP x64 drivers on your parent partition, they installed properly and fixed the issue?
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 15:22
  • That is affirmative.  Install the XP x64 drivers on the host and the performance is back completely.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 15:24
  • Compacting disk but the moment I'm done I'll be there.

    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 15:34
  • Okay, so it installed without a problem. I let Windows reboot, gave it time to get the services up and running. I loaded Zune, played a full song before I did anything. Then I opened two RDP windows and crash, blue screen. The culpret was nv4_mini.sys. Have you had this occur yet? I wasn't running anything other than what I mentioned (and sql, iis, hyper-v services [but no vpc's]).
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 16:40
  • I see I have nv4_mini.sys as one of the many drivers for the video and its version is 6.14.11.6996.  All is well including the guest which I RDP'd into from the host with no BSOD.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 16:46
  • As soon as I finished that last post, I launched another rdp window and the same crash happend. My nv4_mini.sys is version 6.14.11.7516. What download did you use?
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 16:50
  • The only 169 driver I see is Forceware. Is that what you are using?

    ForceWare Release 169 WHQL 169.21 December 19, 2007
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 16:56
  • I used the Quadro driver, selected the 285 and XP x64 for the driver.  Since it is a Quadro.

    I'm downloading an Intel 965 for my laptop to see how the XP x64 version does there.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 16:58
  • Ah that's right you've got the Quadro. I think I'm going to try that 169.21 driver for my 8800GTX. If that doesn't work I'm going to have to put this on hold until a little later. I'll let you know.
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:02
  • With an 8800GTX, why not select GeForce instead of Forceware?
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:04
  • GeForce was the first crash problem. I nabbed the Forceware because it had to closes version number to you before I realized we had different cards. Figured I'd give it a try anyway. Well, they are now installed with an nv4_mini.sys version of 6.14.11.69.21. I'm about to load the rdp window(s). I'll be back...
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:19
  • Okay, I have two RDP windows open without a crash so far. I'm going to stay away from my virtuals for a while until I know performance is a little more stable. Anyone wanting to try it out, I'm using the Intel Q6600 with a GeForce 8800 GTX 756mb and an NForce 680i. The driver version is:
    ForceWare Release 169 WHQL 169.21 December 19, 2007


    Good luck, I know I'll need it.
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:23
  • Intel 965 XP x64 video driver on the laptop is showing perfect performance and I can RDP to other machines fine.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 17:45
  • I know it's only been an hour but man it's nice without the jitter. I can move my rdp windows between monitors without waiting 30 seconds for the system to catch up. Oh, should probably mention that there is no Aero, just Aero Basic which I could care less about at the moment.
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 18:31
  • Luckily, Aero is still working on my Dell Precision 390 and my Lenova T61.  Guess it depends on how the XP x64 driver is written.  But I'd be happy to live without it.

    Again, I see laptops as being crucial for Hyper-V since the opportunity to demo many clients can be so beneficial.  In the world of SMS\SCCM, we do demos all the time where clients and servers are performing various functions together and with Hyper-V you get more guests working leaner than ever before.

    I just see that with the Vista\2008 drivers, many admins will install Hyper-V, see that host performance is so bad, that they don't even bother to try to move on and see how well the clients perform.  In this year where virtualization is the hot ticket, it's vital Hyper-V get a foot hold early and not be dismissed because of a bug.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 18:41
  • I can't speak to the stability of it, as I've only been using the drivers for 10 minutes or so, but I can definitely confirm that downgrading to the WinXP display drivers Zac B linked to resolved my multimedia stuttering when I added the Hyper-V role back.  Also no Aero for me, as Zac mentions, as they're not WDDM drivers.
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 19:18
  • I'm still alive.
    jueves, 21 de agosto de 2008 20:46
  • Isn't there a more recent release of the Forceware XP 64 drivers?

    Bob
    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 10:44
  • I thought I'd put in my penny's worth. I am experiencing similar problems. The setup I have is

    Intel X9770
    ASUS P5E
    4 * 2GB DDR2 PC6400
    ZOTAC 8600 GTS - nVidia driver 175.19
    2 x Seagate Barracuda 250GB HD

    I am a developer building a number of Windows Forms and WPF applications. I have only recently moved to windows 2008 mainly because I felt that Hyper-V was an ideal solution for testing my applications. I have to test the applications in multiple OS and network environments. I have enabled the Desktop Experience and selected the Aero theme so that I can test the Vista themed controls in my WPF application.

    I initially started to notice issues with DevStudio, the properties window in the WPF editor would take 6 seconds (with CPU at 100%) from clicking on a dropdown list to it being displayed - very frustrating. I also noticed that my application would pause for 2 seconds (with CPU 100%) just before it displayed its main window. If I paused my application when the CPU hit 100% it would always be at this point.

         PresentationCore.dll!System.Windows.Media.Composition.DUCE.Channel.SyncFlush() + 0x74 bytes   

    I have tried to install the latest beta x64 Nvidia drivers for vista (177.79) but this had no effect. I changed the theme back to Vista Basic and all of a sudden everything became so much snappier. The drop downs in DevStudio appear immediately and my application shows its main window almost immediately without the CPU hitting 100%. The next thing I tried was to go back to the Aero theme and disable hardware acceleration for WPF applications by using the following registry entry

    [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Avalon.Graphics]
    "DisableHWAcceleration"=dword:00000001

    By disabling hardware acceleration I found that DevStudio and my application started working as expected, no pauses etc. I used this setup for a few days until I started noticing that all the applications are very jerky when using the scrollbars and that every so often I get a pause for no apparent reason. I have now gone back to the Vista Basic theme because with that I do not have any of the above problems.

    I initially thought that this was an incompatibility between Windows 2008 and the nVidia drivers but having read this thread some of the problems other people have had seem to fit in with my experiences. I am considering uninstalling the Hyper-V role to see if this fixes the problems.

    Glenn




    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 12:06
  • There was some methodology (misunderstanding) behind using the older Forceware XP x64 drivers, they ended up working so I'm sticking with it for the moment.
    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 14:00
  • Good to hear.  It's been 100% rock solid.  Both machines that had the problem feel brand new.  The Dell 2900 in the lab never had the problem.

    Anyone besides me still been able to use Aero?  Again, not a huge loss considering the massive performance gain, but I'm just curious.

    When I installed the drivers, in both cases, the exe's failed, but I was able to update the driver by pointing to the extracted drivers folders.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 19:56
  • Glenn Atter said:

    I initially started to notice issues with DevStudio, the properties window in the WPF editor would take 6 seconds (with CPU at 100%) from clicking on a dropdown list to it being displayed - very frustrating. I also noticed that my application would pause for 2 seconds (with CPU 100%) just before it displayed its main window. If I paused my application when the CPU hit 100% it would always be at this point.



    Yeah, I got so sick of the any of the toolbox windows that were upgraded to WPF, gave up blend and WPF projects all together. I just couldn't take it, testing solutions felt more like murder. I just tested as we are speaking and everything works fine with my up-down-graded display drivers (except for aero). That really shouldn't matter unless you are programming against the wdm api creating glass effects within your app... right? Anyway, I just installed VS 2k8 SP1 literally 10 minutes ago so I can't really do a fair compare w/o SP1. Prop the same though. And I know that VS 2k8 worked great will all the enhancements before RC1. Oh, I just realized some of the media effects are handled by the WDM too so maybe no carousel.
    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 20:09
  • Brian Mason said:

    Good to hear.  It's been 100% rock solid.  Both machines that had the problem feel brand new.  The Dell 2900 in the lab never had the problem.

    Anyone besides me still been able to use Aero?  Again, not a huge loss considering the massive performance gain, but I'm just curious.

    When I installed the drivers, in both cases, the exe's failed, but I was able to update the driver by pointing to the extracted drivers folders.


    Microsoft MVP - SCCM



    My XP x64 install went through fine. I was very supprised, first time the GeForce did something right, actually no, installing the XP drivers on Server 2k8 is wrong and it let me do it.

    If I had a Quatro for everytime my GeForce worked me... I'd have 8 monitors instead of 2.

    Zac
    viernes, 22 de agosto de 2008 20:13
  • Weird, I have a Quadro FX 570M and have tried out various XP x64 specific drivers, and have problems. To have them accepted in the first place I need to modify the inf file and this will let me install them. But then, after the reboot the video card show the usual esclamation mark next to it in device manager.

    Did you people do anything else to have the XP drivers accepted? What drivers did you specifically download?

    One additional info, I'm using a laptop ...

    Bob
    • Editado SundayDeveloper sábado, 23 de agosto de 2008 21:23 additional detail
    sábado, 23 de agosto de 2008 21:21
  • I have a GeForce 8500 GT.  I downloaded the ForceWare release 169 drivers for WinXP 64-bit Zac linked to on page 3:

    http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp64_169.21_whql.html

    I did not have to edit any files, the installation ran out-of-the-box.  I did have an error pop up toward the end of the installation but just clicked OK and the installation still succeeded.  Everything "Just Worked" (except for Aero :( ) once I rebooted.


    domingo, 24 de agosto de 2008 13:07
  • Much as I hate to add a "me too" post....I have a

    Dell Precision T5400
    12GB RAM
    XEON E5450 3Ghz x 1
    2 x 73Gb SAS 15k RPM + Perc 6/i SAS Controller
    NVidia GeForce 8800 GTS

    ..and I am so glad to have found this post. I've been battling with the laggy jerky behaviour for about a month now. I find the worst of it happens if I'm starting an RDP session (to local Hyper-V VM or one of our remote boxes in the DC). I also find when web browsing that if a site is pulling content from a third party I get 'the lag' (IE7 and FF3). Sound breaks up and overall responsiveness is a bit ____ for 2-10 seconds.

    My question - is this specifically and definitely a video driver issue, I kinda feel that it could be some wider spread I/O bottleneck ? But you can slap me around if I'm wrong.

    Ta.
    Kev


    martes, 26 de agosto de 2008 3:18
  • Well, as the display drivers directly effect this issue I would lean toward that piece of hardware. That's not to say that the display drivers aren't conflicting with some other hardware though. At this point stuck with these old XP drivers, though limited, is much better than the unbearable system performance with the alternative...

    For myself, I'm just waiting for some official information from one of the Microsoft employees. I check the NVidia forums every once in a while but it's almost pointless.
    martes, 26 de agosto de 2008 3:27
  • It's something that'll have to come from Microsoft, I suspect, because I had to get XP x64 Intel drivers to get the laptop going.  But no doubt, it's so much better now with these drivers.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 26 de agosto de 2008 5:09
  • Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an XP x64 driver that works with the Quadro NVS 140M that is in my laptop.  Has anyone with a 140M or 135M gotten the XP drivers to work?
    miércoles, 27 de agosto de 2008 16:15
  • Did you try either the NVS 50 or 280 to see if they'd work? 
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 27 de agosto de 2008 16:19
  • George,

    Are you using dual monitors with the laptop? If not, try the default Microsoft Display Adapter drivers.

    Zac
    miércoles, 27 de agosto de 2008 21:31
  • FYI: Driverheaven.net has an Nvidia (and an ATI) mobility modder. Basically this utility changes the INF file of any Nvidia drivers you download from Nvidia's web site so that you can install them on your laptop. You can get it here:

    http://www.driverheaven.net/nvmodtool.php

    If you don't already know this, many generic/OEM Nvidia drivers won't install on (Dell) laptops. You get a variation of a "this hardware is not compatible" message and the setup program exits. You can use "Update Driver" from device manager, but that won't install the control panel for you. Anyway, I used this to mod the Dell Latitude E6400 laptop driver INF and now I can install the E6400 driver on my Dell Latitude D620. I have not tried adding the Hyper-V role back yet, but I am hopeful that now I can try assorted drivers from the Nvidia web site and maybe find a current driver that works with Hyper-V.

    YMMV, Good Luck
    -Peter
    martes, 02 de septiembre de 2008 1:02
  • I used the mod tool and it still said I wasn't using XP.  So just for giggles, installed the 177.83 drivers for x64 Vista with no luck.  Then I took the inf file from the Vista Driver and copied it to the XP driver and it installed.  So far so good.  I will post my experiences.  Too bad I lost Aero :(
    miércoles, 03 de septiembre de 2008 0:24
  • Mine was as simple an install and pointing to the extracted XP x64 drivers after they failed to install from their exe by using the "update drivers" button.  It sounds like I'm the only one who is still using Aero after the change to the X64 drivers.  That's too bad.

    But I'll never go back to the Vista drivers until Microsoft addresses this issue. Performance is top notch again and I'm really pushing Hyper-V hard and loving it.  It seems like forever ago now that we were stuck waiting for Hyper-V using VPC.  I can't imagine going back now.  And I'm really glad to have this work-around regarding the drivers.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 03 de septiembre de 2008 1:22
  • By the way, I have the same issues but am using ATI cards.  It may not be as severe as those with Nvidia cards but simple things like CTRL-ALT-DELETE can take 20 seconds to paint the screens.  I kept UAC but disabled the Secure Desktop feature just because painting the screens takes so long.  I am using 3 monitors which is likely accentuating the problem.

    I have not tried alternative drivers

    MSI Platinum P35
    Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
    8GB PC6400 DDR2 (4 x 2GB G.Skill 4-4-4-12)
    2 x GIGABYTE Radeon HD 2600XT GV-RX26T256H
    1 x 20.1" LCD 1600x1200
    2 x 17" LCD 1280x1024

    3 x Hitachi 500GB SATA HDD [RAID 5]
    1 x Western Digital 500GB SATA HDD
    Rosewill 950W Power Supply
    domingo, 14 de septiembre de 2008 1:23
  • I have taken the plunge and my desktop Vista x64 machine is now Server 2008 with Hyper-V.

    Roles Installed: - Hyper-V & File Services for Shared Folders
    Features Installed: - Desktop Exp, RSAT, Telnet Client, Powershell, Server Backup

    I am 'currently' using Vista x64 nVidia driver 7.15.11.6925 (169.25 x64 Forceware Drivers) and AERO is working fine.
    Hardware Specs:
    - Intel Q6600 Quad Core CPU
    - 6GB DDR2 800Mhz RAM
    - Gigabyte GA965G-DS3 Motherboard (ICH8)
    - Gigabyte nVidia 8500 GT 256MB PCI
    - Dual 17" CRT Monitors
    - RAID1 Hardware SATA Boot Array
    - 2 x 320GB Data Drives
    - 1 x 160GB Vista HDD Legacy Boot drive (Still with Vista x64 OS on it as P2V'ing that went pear shaped, that's for another thread).

    I see the issues that this thread has mentioned from using the system for the past week going through different scenarios including no audio for two days and then enabling audio and with those constant 'little pauses' since install some of them appear to be video related and some are no doubt the network load/disk perf due to my current setup (OS and Hyper-V VHD's are on the same array at the moment) though after a week running WMP in a Hyper-V Vista VM via RDP very rarely have I had the sound issue, maybe a couple of times per day max. but the 'screen freeze' for one to two seconds happens quite often and the trigger always seems to be when you switch focus to another window be it in the parent partition or inside a VM that I am connected to via RDP.

    I will swap out the video drivers in the next day or so to some x64 XP drivers and see how it goes.

    One of the main reasons I held back going from Vista Ultimate to Server 2008 was getting the use of my TV Card which I now have working (still tweaking) other than the TV recording software I only have IE7/FF3/Opera9.5 (For diag testing etc)  installed and anything else in the parent partition is run via apps from http://portableapps.com and lastly http://codeplex.com/terminals to manage all my RDP sessions. I doubt there is much more or need for any other apps on my parent partition so it can and will stay rather healthy.

    I have two new Vista VM's running, one for day to day common usage Email, Office, Music etc and the other is loaded with Visual Studio Express 2008, Office 2007 & Expression 2 and another 2008 Core Server as a secondary domain controller for my primary Hyper-V Server. The parent partition in the current config still has 1GB of RAM free and I only use what I must use (TV Recording & Terminals RDP) and hardly ever have a browser window open, everything day to day including this post is done in the Vista VM so the parent partition is hardly used.

    As a platform if we could get USB device 'pass-thru' and more Video RAM in Hyper-V VM's.... Mmmmm (Yeah I know the answer on this). I cant run Photosynth in a Hyper-V VM due to VRAM and I am not going to try Photoshop just yet either, some graphics intensive app's will have to run on the old slow laptop for a while (Not that I am a designer, At times VRAM is needed though).

    Other than the main issue of this thread my desktop/workstation will forever run as a Hypervisor from this day forth and a wide variety of OS flavours on top of it Linux Mint, CentOS, Ubuntu, Vista, Server 03/08, MacOS etc...

    "I'm a PC and Hyper-V Rocks my Workstation"
    (Nearly!, Get this fixed and I will post a video :P )

    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    • Editado Stephen Edgar domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2008 16:50 I'm a PC Formatting Error :P
    domingo, 21 de septiembre de 2008 16:45
  • ** Shameless Bump **

    I still have not changed the nVidia drivers I am using and day-to-day tasks I am finding near on zero issues, except.

    All my music is running in a Vista x64 VM with WMP11 and only misses a beat when I really load the parent partition with some I/O intensive tasks and my CPU usage bumps to 100%. This is typically if I fire up WMP11 on the parent partition to play back some recorded TV or the like (After work finishes :P) and the DWM.EXE process goes off the charts. When this happens it feels as if I am running one of the early Vista Beta builds and going through those hellish DWM crashes trying to get the 'Aero' interface up and running as nVidia's drivers and DWM did not play nice back then.

    I am 99.9% sure this is a driver issue and/or related to DWM and if my crash logs were not annonymously uploaded to MSFT you could see them MSFT. Throw me some links to your MPSRPT Tools (i.e. Updated versions of these)to generate the 'Report Logs' and give me a FTP Upload slot and you are welcome to whatever you want or even if you want to hook into a Live Meeting EasyAssist session and watch it happen you are more than welcome team.

    Other than this issue this is such an amazing workstation.... Yes we know it may be an 'Unsupported Scenario' from Microsoft yet during all the Hyper-V/WSV/Viridian Beta's we were only discouraged from running Hyper-V with the AD role in the parent partition never the 'Desktop Experience' and I think that Microsoft need to work on this with by the sounds of it both nVidia and AMD to get this issue resolved.
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    viernes, 03 de octubre de 2008 7:50
  • I am also having this slow down issue using the latest 178 Nvidia drivers. Using the XP x64 drivers does fix the problem somewhat, but there is still some choppy behaviour, although it is nowhere near as bad as with the Vista drivers.

    Roles installed: Hyper-V
    Features installed: Desktop Experience

    System:
    • Intel E6400 Core 2 Duo
    • 2GB ram
    • Asus P5N-E SLi motherboard, with Nvidia 650i SLi chipset
    • 2x Nvidia Geforce 8600GT
    • Realtek HD audio with 2.05 drivers
    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 1:51
  • Are there any Microsoft employees out there who can help? The posts have been slowing down not because the issue just went away but because the customers have. I gave up on any hope of demo-ing with either of my high end notebooks which had run the RC0 flawlessly. As for my office dev setup, I changed my quad core workstation to be the full time hyper-v server and exchanged it for my older dual core which has Hyper-V turned off.
    The saddest part is not that I can't benefit from it on my notebooks or my workstation (which I most definitely could), it's that I can't show the countless clients and students just how great Windows Server 2008 and Hyper-V are. We all know and understand that supporting mid/high end graphics cards and desktop experience isn't directly beneficial to the company. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't indirectly important. It doesn't even need to be official support, like I said many times; when my system was setup in a way that the performance is that of a broken wheel IT STILL PLAYS GAMES! IT STILL PLAYS HD MOVIES! IT STILL PLAYS MUSIC! IT STILL CONNECTS WITH REMOTE DESKTOP!
    The issue really never appeared to be with the content so much as the transitions into it. My computer would lock up the same when I was starting a game or when I was using a drop down list in Visual Studio 2008's property editor. I ask for no more Cop-Outs!

    I can really only beg to help for so long. That's to help, not for help although I do need help, to help.

    Thanks,
    Zac Boyles

    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 3:07
  • Zac,
        I just rebuilt a machine using Intel Core Quad Q9400 with an nVidia 7600 GT with Vista x64 Drivers. Performance sucked once I enabled Hyper-V. I switched over to an ATI Radeon HD 3850 and the issued improved quite a bit but it's still there. I'm running the Desktop Experience with Aero Enabled.. with the ATI card Zune runs without glitching until I do a large file copy and some other fairly intensive operations. I am a former MSFT employee (7 years) and now at a partner, others in the company have run into this as well. I am willing to sacrifice my machine to science or at least to the hyper-v team :-)

    System:
    • Intel Q9400 Core Quad
    • 8GB ram DDR2 6400 (Gskill)
    • Gigabyte EP45-DS3R
    • ATI Radeon HD 3950
    • Realtek HD audio
    • Realtek RTL8168C Nic Drivers
    • Western Digital Raptor 150GB Boot Drive
    • Promise SuperTrak EX 8350 Array Controller (Storage Only)

     

    - Dave Gardner

    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 3:57
  • Dave, did you ever try the XP x64 drivers for the 7600?

    Not sure what happened since the good RC days, but x64 XP drivers seem to be the only salvation until Microsoft acknowledges and addresses this problem.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 4:31
  • Nah, I just needed a slight excuse to get rid of that POS card... I hate nVidia products ... always have had driver issues...

    Right now I have my ATI card running with Zune cranked in the background, outlook opened, 2 powerpoints, Sidebar, Aero, 2GB Ram MOSS VM running and no glitching.. only seems to happen now with heavy network activity... totally liveable..


    -Dave Gardner
    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 4:36
  • Just echoing Zac & Dave, we need some help, to help... You have offers here from us willing to sacrifice our machines to help.

    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    martes, 07 de octubre de 2008 6:37
  • sigh.

    Can I use Hyper-V with the latest video card drivers for my nvidia 8800, without having the host OS stutter and lag, pretty please?

    Or at least if I must use drivers for Windows XP(!?), is there a way to force aero?

    Avrage ColdFusion developer. from Orange County!
    jueves, 09 de octubre de 2008 23:35
  • There has been a driver update since I gave up on my 8800GTX. You could try that but I doubt it will change anything. As for XP drivers and Aero, not that I know of at all.

    Sorry
    viernes, 10 de octubre de 2008 0:01
  • I encountered this same issue on my install of Server 2008 x64. I installed the Vista x64 latest nVidia drivers (8800GT) and had perfectly reasonable performance at first.

    And then I installed Hyper-V and rebooted. Immediately things went south - videos took seconds to load, dragging windows around the screen lagged (even on classic view, not aero) etc.

    Unfortunately, I went into device manager, told it to update my display drivers, and pointed to the latest xp64 .inf file (since the installer for xp64 wouldn't install it normally). After that things worked fine for a minute or two, but then I loaded a video into MPC and boom - bluescreen.

    From then on, every time I booted and tried to load a video or enter the device manager I get a bsod. It took me a dozen or so reboots into safe mode to finally revert the driver back to Vista64, so now I'm back to the old issues.


    So what gives? Do you think it was a mistake to only update the driver to the new .inf instead of doing a "full" install w/ control panel etc? How can I force the setup.exe to ignore what OS I'm using?

    Thanks for any help you guys can offer - this thread has been very helpful in diagnosing the problem, and I really appreciate the effort everyone puts in to help!
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 21:27
  • If I were you Ben, I'd download the XP x64 drivers for the 8800GT, then extract those files, go to the device manager, click on your current display drivers and use the update drivers button and point it to the XP x64 folder you made.

    The XP x64 drivers have been rock solid with Hyper-V.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 21:53
  • Thanks for getting back to me.

    What you suggested is pretty well what I did - resulting in unending bsods.

    Is there a difference between pointing the driver updater to the specific .inf as opposed to pointing it to the driver folder in its entirety?

    Thanks for your help!
    • Editado ben_sulli miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 21:58
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 21:57
  • I think it's different.  I'm clicking on the update drivers button, then browsing to the extracted folder.  During the process it doesn't show me the file it's grabbing though I guess that there is a nv4_disp.inf in that folder too.  I'm not letting windows search for me.

    You did extract the executable to a folder and see all the cabs and exe's and such in there, right?

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 22:03
  • Yup, I just let it do its thing and unzip to c:\nvidia\etc. Then I used the "have disk..." button to select the nv4_disp.inf file specifically.

    I'll try letting it search the entire folder for what it needs. Perhaps there are multiple .infs that must be updated together and what I did may have caused some sort of version mismatch between them.

    Is there any way to stop S2k8 from auto-installing drivers for my vid card? After I uninstalled these drivers, even in safe mode, it would try to reinstall them (giving me a bsod) as soon as I got to the desktop.
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 22:20
  • See, that sounds so XP.  I never click the have disk button so I see no inf file to point to.  I click update driver, browse my computer, then click the browse button to specify the folder with the extracted files, then next.



    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 15 de octubre de 2008 22:45
  • Nvidia just release new drivers today (10/15)...anyone try those yet?
    jueves, 16 de octubre de 2008 1:56
  • Well, I'll never try another Vista driver until Microsoft addresses the issue.  And since I'm happy with my current XP x64 drivers, I'll just stick with what's good.  But I hold no illusions that a vendor like NVidia will address the issue.  It's Microsoft's problem to recognize and resolve.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    jueves, 16 de octubre de 2008 5:28
  • I, too, have noticed the same issue as many others in this thread.  Its frustrating to find out that its a widespread issue with no current solution, but I suppose its better than thinking something was wrong with my machine.

    My setup:

    Gigabyte N650SLI-DS4 w/ E6600
    6GB DDR2 800
    2x 8800GTX (using Vista x64 178 drivers)

    Just installed server 2008 a few days ago, so this is a pretty clean install.  I noticed that when installing the hyper-v role, upon restarting the system lags immensely.  Symptoms are as described in this thread - lag when browsing, opening images, movies, pretty much any graphical rendering.  Switching off aero seems to lessen the problem, though not completely remove it.

    Stopping the 3 hyper-v services has no effect on performance.  The lag occurs even when no virtual machines are present. (I never installed any)  The only way to get rid of the lag is to remove the role entirely.

    Does anyone have any updates on this?  I am about to try the xp 64 drivers, but this machine is primarily my workstation and I'm quite enjoying aero.  I'm a developer so hyper-v would have been nice for quick testing, but the performance hit is unbearable right now.   I've heard that pre-RC1 hyper-v works fine with no performance hit?  Is this confirmed?  Is there any way to install the older version (at least to test it out and see if the lag is there)

    Hopefully this can be worked out soon.  So far its the only thing that I've had trouble with in Server 2008 - I haven't been this happy with an os upgrade in a while!

    K

    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 2:28
  • You won't necessarily lose Aero.  I didn't.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 2:32
  • Have you or anyone tried nvidia's 180.42 drivers (on guru3d.com)?  Also, have the xp x64 drivers hurt 3d performance in other apps?
    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 22:16
  • In my experience using Windows XP x64 drivers for Server 2008 prevented other 3D apps from working properly.  Tried a few games for test and most crashed the server.  So this was not a vable option for me.

    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 22:18
  • Remember, this XP x64 driver work around is to just stop the major lags\stutter issue.  I wouldn't fault Microsoft if the issue was solely about someone wanting to make a gaming system off Server 2008.  I do hold them accountable to resolve this issue so that Hyper-V can be used to demo products without the presenter having to apologize 500 times about running Hyper-V.

    Hyper-V is outstanding in every respect.  We just need this stuttering issue with Vista video drivers resolved ASAP or too many will just call it junk and never try it again.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 22:25
  • Ben,

    When using the regular GeForce XP drivers I had the bsod problems too. Go to nvidia.com. Hover over DOWNLOAD DRIVERS then click Download Drivers. In the Other Downloads & Support section and under the Other Drivers heading, click the first option, Beta and Archived Drivers.

    Select the following options:
    GeForce
    GeForce 8 Series
    GeForce 8800 GTX (I know that you have the GT but select GTX so we're on the same page)
    Windows XP 64-bit
    English (US)
    All
    Then click the Search button. In the Search Results section you should see about 10 items. Look for and select the ForceWare Release 169 (169.21) driver released on December 19th, 2007. Agree to the terms and download it.

    In the case that you're having issues installing the driver perform the following.
    Delete all previously extracted NVidia drivers probably located in the C:\NVIDIA folder. Once you have deleted all of the extracted driver files on your system, right click on your Computer icon, click Manage. Expand the Diagnostics node (I'm sure you're familiar with all this I'm just trying to be thorough) and select Device Manager. In the main window, expand the Display adapters node. Right click on NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT then click Uninstall. Follow the steps to uninstall and make sure to restart afterwards.
    Once you have logged back in, follow the same steps above to again view your Device Manager. *I believe that your display adapter will be the generic Microsoft driver but don't panic if it isn't. At this point it is safe to attempt to install the ForceWare Release 169 driver you downloaded. Hopefully the installer will work properly, if not simply perform the manual install process you've already attempted. Once it is installed, restart your computer again.
    Hopefully, after these steps, you'll end up with an almost stable machine that doesn't support the Aero theme.

    * If you're computer already shows an NVIDIA driver installed you could try an additional step instead of updating it directly. Once you have logged back in, navigated to the Device Manager and expanded the Display adapters, right click the NVIDIA driver, click Uninstall. Again, follow the steps to uninstall but this time do not restart. Instead perform the driver installation (manually or automatically).

    Hope this works for you.

    Zac Boyles

    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 22:47
  • I'll echo Brian's call on that. Basic operations hinder the system when initiated. I will also add that this did not occur with Hyper-V RC0.
    martes, 21 de octubre de 2008 22:50
  • I just found this on Connect's Windows Server Feedback site "Hyper-V made the machine unusable : SUPER SLOW"

    So add any info you wish to the feedback item and PLEASE 'Vote, Rate & Validate' this at Connect.

    I think the threshold before escalation is around 100 V&V's so we have a way to go before getting to 100, but lets start.

    ps. Zac, Can you add this link to your first post of this thread so anyone new to this can see the link and go V & V it.

    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    • Editado Stephen Edgar miércoles, 22 de octubre de 2008 3:21 formatting
    miércoles, 22 de octubre de 2008 3:13
  • Out of curiosity, which ATI card did you buy?

    Kev
    jueves, 13 de noviembre de 2008 22:56
  • Just an FYI for anyone considering testing the latest drivers, I tested the beta of Win2k8 SP2 and the latest beta Nvidia drivers (180.84) and the performance problem is still present.
    martes, 16 de diciembre de 2008 19:10
  • I have also been doing some testing of late.

    I gave the 178.24 x64 Vista Drivers a run and I had DWM.EXE crashes all over the place like I was running Vista Beta with the first nVidia drivers and constant crash after crash of the 'Desktop Windows Manager'

    I then went and installed the 169.21 XP x64 Drivers and WOW! - Tried the same 169.21 drivers for x64 Vista and these will do me for now as when I am running just the XP drivers I am having some issues with my TV card setup and DirectX failures and for whatever reason I am needing DirectX10 drivers for this and cannot get away with just DirectX9.

    I have been banging at Microsoft to get access to the Beta 2 test so I can file a bug but they don't want to give me access (or reply) for whatever reason. I have access to the CTP of Beta 2 but no option to submit any bugs.

    I was also pointed to the following article which makes some sense in regard to the problem somehow in my view though it would appear more and more that using a driver that is only DirectX9 enabled and has no DirectX10 options is the only way to have a stable environment.

    http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/archive/2007/08/27/1833290.aspx

    At least our feedback item "Hyper-V made the machine unusable : SUPER SLOW" is now up to 55 validations only 45 to go before it crosses the MSFT threshold and will be investigated further (I am pretty sure it gets escalated at 100).
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    martes, 16 de diciembre de 2008 21:29
  • I am experiencing the same issue.

    I use Windows Server 2008 Enterprise x64 as Workstation OS because I want to use Hyper-V for developing purposes (I don't want expensive VMWare since I get Win Server for free as a computer science student). Once Hyper-V is installed sound and 3D performance of the machine becomes extremely bad. When Hpyer-V is removed it works fine again immediately. This can be reproduced limitless times with many different driver versions.

    My hardware setup:
    Intel Core i7 920
    Asus X58 P6T Workstation Pro
    Asus EAH3870 (ATI Radeon 3870)
    Corsair XMS3 6x2GB PC3-1333 Memory

    Server 2008 Clean Install
    Hyper-V Clean Install
    All Updates Installed
    Any 3D App (also Aero) or sound (e.g. webradio in IE or WMP) shutter and run extremely slow. I intended to use this Hyper-V machine for presentations at my university, but there's no way to do that with such a poor performing system :(

    domingo, 28 de diciembre de 2008 2:35

  • I have noticed a very wierd effect and would be interested to see if anyone else who is suffering this problem when using Aero gets the same result.

    Open your browser on a page that can be scrolled - e.g. a google search result.
    Try scrolling - if you get jumpy scrolling and/or garbled display try this:

    Open task manager and make sure it has the "Always on top" setting enabled.

    Place the task manager so that it is in front of your browser window.

    Click the browser window and try scrolling again.

    You might get an initial delay of a second or so, but then scrolling will be smooth again.

    Now try moving task manager off the browser window and scroll again - rubbish again!

    Put Task Manager back over the browser - good scrolling again.

    Wierder than this - try putting Task Manager so that it only overlaps the shadow of the browser window.... good scrolling!!!!!

    Anyone else get this?

    Does this suggest a solution to the problem to anyone?
    lunes, 29 de diciembre de 2008 1:44
  • Interesting find, Pendold.

    I also confirmed that the beta SP2 has no fix.  Forgot just how bad this bug was until I tried those Vista drivers again.  Totally unusable and certainly potential users are walking away thinking Hyper-V is junk.  What a shame.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    lunes, 29 de diciembre de 2008 21:31
  • Hi.

    My collegee has resolved this issue (I have nvidia card) by theese steps:

    1. Download the latest Nvidia drivers for Windows XP x64 (from nvidia site  or from http://www.driverheavendownloads.net/nvidia.htm )
    2. Use Nvida Mobility Modder ( http://www.driverheaven.net/nvmodtool.php) on unpacked drivers from step 1
    3. When step 2 succeed, click on "Update driver" in Device Manager (select your nvidia card). Next select "modded" drivers folder from step 2. I suggest to to choose "Nvidia DualView" device.
    4. Restart your computer. After restart the perfomance problem should go away.

    There is a also modder utilty for ATI (on the same site) so you can try this method for nvidia too.

    Kind regards
    Piotr Gardy
    domingo, 04 de enero de 2009 20:50
  • Piotr Gardy said:

    1. Download the latest Nvidia drivers for Windows XP x64 (from nvidia site  or from http://www.driverheavendownloads.net/nvidia.htm )

    Piotr,

    The XP x64 driver was a partial solution long time ago, but this will cause problems on some DirectX applications, especially DirectX 10 as I've heard.

    miércoles, 07 de enero de 2009 5:56
  •  http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archive/2009/01/07/bad-performance-with-high-end-graphics-and-hyper-v.aspx

    Bad Performance with High-End Graphics and Hyper-V
    If you have tried to mix Hyper-V and high end 3D graphics (in the parent partition - of course) you have probably noticed that the performance is bad.  Unfortunately - for the time being - the answer to this problem is that Hyper-V has not been designed to be used on systems running high-end graphics. 

    It has been designed to be used for server consolidation.

    However - we have just published a KB article (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/961661) that explains why this happens.  If you need to run Hyper-V on such systems your best option is to either:

    1. Put a lower end video card in your server
    -or-
    2. Use the standard SVGA driver

    Cheers
    Ben

    This article or KB961661 still does not refer to any of the sound issues that people are having though, it may be similar and we might have to find 'mono' audio drivers for sound cards!


    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 0:42
  • Great, yet one... well two more articles making it sound like it's just the cost of doing business with virtualization. I might have more comfort if there was even a remote recognition that Hyper-V RC0 had fantastic performance with the "High-End" graphics cards. It's like the cards are getting all the blame. Forget about all that though. I'm really over using my desktop to host virtual machines. However, it is a damn shame that both notebooks I own have "High-End" graphics cards. Even some of the least expensive laptops have "High-End" graphics cards built in now. So, I'm back to how I can't run Hyper-V RTM on either of my notebooks with their "High-End" cards...


    Zac
    -Snootie "High-End" Graphic Card User
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 1:25
  • Zac,

    I just last Thursday upgraded from a 8500GS 256MB to a 9600GT 512MB and the 169.21 drivers wouldn't work with the 9 series cards and have been in serious pain since. I have now 'offloaded' the VM's I had on this desktop to another Hyper-V Server and am dual booting at the moment now with Windows 7.

    It is WOW to have a fast desktop again...


    So it is either take that penalty of using the Standard SVGA driver to showcase Hyper-V to clients and have no games/entertainment/fun etc when you get home or don't have Hyper-V on the laptop.
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 2:14
  • VGA makes working from the console session almost impossible because the display is so small.  And this is a major issue when I'm trying to give a presentation at a conference with hundreds of people watching.  Either the display looks like ____ or they see massive stutter and conclude that Hyper-V is junk.  XP x64 drivers do NOT have this issue.  And my laptop has no fancy graphics card.  It's integrated ____.  Same for my desktop.  Nothing fancy.  I'm not trying to play games.

    Microsoft needs to address this issue.  Just moving a window shows the stutter.  Windows.  Windows Server.  This has gone on long enough.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 2:22
  • Brian,

    It has conveniently only now after all this time had Microsoft respond in some form and no doubt as we are up to 72 on the feedback item count (which they don't want to hit 100) and with Windows Server 2008 R2 Beta just around the corner it is just to much of a coincidence IMHO.
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 2:30
  • Stephen,

    I'd like to say I know what I want but I've had so many combinations of hardware setup I can barely care. It's too hard to argue this point with anyone because the moment they get a feeling that Server 2k8 is even hooked up to a physical monitor they rush to the wrong conclusions. We've all saw them, here in this forum and at Connect. It probably hurts the argument more when I mention how I could run crysis while burning dvd's and listening to Zune using RC0. I changed to using my slower workstation without Hyper-V enabled a few months back. I think I would have lost my mind if I hadn't. The other day I put Windows 7 on an old PIV w/ 2gb ram and an older 6800 GTX. I'm impressed so far. Maybe I should just stick this server in the corner with the other and go production (aka development using it under only the most perfect EULA compliance) with Windows 7. All I need is RDP now a days so I should be set. I wonder if Hyper-V Remote Manager works on Windows 7.

    And Brian, I agree SVGA is not an option without a minimum of dual monitor support. It's been so long since I've tried it that I don't remember what the exact issues were but I do remember it not working for me.

    I'm starting to feel like the Virtual PC Guy doesn't leave his blog. This is the guy who runs Virtual PC in a Hyper-Child partition. I wish he would come show us virtual hybrids some love over here.


    Zac
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 4:17
  • Server 2k8 R2 Beta's going to be headed onto both of my laptops as soon as I have some time. I'll post my results when I do.
    viernes, 09 de enero de 2009 6:30
  • So I have Windows Server 2008 R2 Beta Standard installed on an HP dv9000 notebook. It has a GeForce Go 6150, a few gigs of ram and a dual core AMD. Everything was running great after I installed the Vista x64 drivers from HP's site. I say was because I just booted up after enabling Hyper-V and I can't say it's as bad as Windows Server 2008 but it isn't nearly as smooth as normal. For example, when I logged in the startup sound crackled. Like I said, it's not terible and Aero is turned on.
    With that said, I don't have any Child Partitions setup nor do I have Zune installed playing music. I'm not sure what else I'm going to setup tonight but if anyone has any results please post them.

    Zac
    sábado, 10 de enero de 2009 0:25
  • You mean Server 2008 SP2 beta, right?  R2 is different.

    And I'm running SP2 beta (v113) and they didn't address the issue.  SP2 would be a nice place to get it done.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 10 de enero de 2009 0:28
  • It seems that "xp 64" trick doesn't work on Server 2008 R2..

    I have it since a hour (by in-place upgrade) and I cannot upgrade Standard Video driver to the modded one. I'm receiving an error that "The driver selected for this device does not support this version of Windows"

    Currently I'm looking for some solution.
    I haven't enabled Hyper-V yet.
    sábado, 10 de enero de 2009 17:18
  • Brian, I'm using the R2 beta not the SP2 beta (although I was curious if that fixed anything). With R2 beta behaving the way it does I have this bad feeling that the issue isn't going to be addressed.
    sábado, 10 de enero de 2009 17:24
  • Great, so I installed the R2 beta myself and now my work around is gone; the XP x64 driver refuses to install.  I have the horrible stutter back!  :(
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    domingo, 18 de enero de 2009 6:20
  • Brian Mason said:

    Great, so I installed the R2 beta myself and now my work around is gone; the XP x64 driver refuses to install.  I have the horrible stutter back!  :(


    Microsoft MVP - SCCM


    I do confirm that. I've tried the migration the R2 a week ago, however I've restored my server 2008 backup when I discovered that xp x64 drivers doesn't work any longer...
    domingo, 18 de enero de 2009 19:28
  • Hi All,

    First - I would like to apologise for the lack of response from Microsoft on this thread.  We have been aware of this issue and have been actively investigating it for quite a while prior to posting the KB article - and is was negligent to not let this thread know that the issue was not being at least investigated.

    Now to answer a couple of questions:

    1. Why did this work in RC0 and break thereafter?

      As mentioned in the KB article - the slowdown is the result of excessive TLB activity.  Between RC0 and RC1 we fixed performance and corruption bugs that changed our behavior here - and resulted in the current behavior.
    2. When are you going to get this fixed?

      Unfortunately - not soon.  This is a very hard problem to solve - to be able to handle such a large ammount of TLB activity in a correct and fast fashion.  Plus - as a server product this is not at the top of our priority list (things like Live Migration and better server performance are).
    3. But how can you ship this issue?

      Windows Server does not contain WDDM drivers by default, and will not install them automatically over Windows Update.  Windows Server always uses the SVGA driver (unless the user manually installs an alternate drive) and it does this for reasons of stability and performance.  Anyone using Hyper-V as a server should be able to get the functionality they want with the SVGA driver.
    4. But I want to run Windows Server 2008 and Hyper-V as a workstation computer!

      So do I (seriously - we started looking at this before this issue was reported on the forum because I was complaining that Age Of Empires III was unplayable when I had Hyper-V installed).  Unfortunately this is not an officially supported configuration today.  Your best options are to either use the SVGA driver - or - (as I have done) setup a seperate Hyper-V server and manage it remotely from your desktop.
    5. But I need to run Hyper-V on my laptop and use it to demonstrate to others.

      This is the tough one.  Hyper-V was certainly not designed for laptops on many levels.  I always recommend that if you are going to run Hyper-V on a laptop you set it up dual boot - so that one partition runs Hyper-V while the other runs all your other applications.  This is far from ideal - but it is the best you can do today.

    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    • Propuesto como respuesta Deriven martes, 27 de enero de 2009 5:32
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 0:58
    Propietario
  • Thanks Ben.

    SVGA is simply a horrible option because the real estate is so poor.  Single monitor support.  Blech.

    I do run Server 2008 as a workstation because I need to get to these guests instantly for testing and fire emails off at the same time.  It's simply not practical to dual boot and go back and forth.  And I do plan to demo with a laptop at MMS this year.  Virtual PC doesn't have the power to run what Hyper-V can (no shock).  Hyper-V is a stunning improvement and a real gem with all sorts of potential (including laptop demos).

    So, why does an XP x64 driver solve the issue?  Can't we learn something from that to use as a fix?

    Thanks.


    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:07
  • Brian Mason said:

     So, why does an XP x64 driver solve the issue?  Can't we learn something from that to use as a fix?

    Wouldn't the driver manufacturers need to resolve this?  It sounds like the issue is the higher-end accelerated graphics drivers are allocating memory using a method (writecombine) that is normally fast except when you're dealing with a virtualized table (I'm guessing address translation slows it down?) whereas the lower-end drivers (like the XP drivers we're stuck with for now) do not use writecombine for allocation and do not exhibit the problem.  Driver manufacturers would have to change their code to disable writecombine when running on a Hyper-V enabled system, and I can't imagine they'll be clamoring to do that.

    I've pretty much accepted that, in the grand scheme of things, we're a relatively tiny group of people experiencing a corner-case problem.  The XP drivers are good enough for me on my work desktop for testing purposes and the production servers keep the SVGA driver.  I agree with Ben at this point, focus on more impactful issues (like maybe getting widescreen resolution support so that those of us running the Hyper-V Manager remotely from our workstations can get a decent resolution when connecting to a VM).

    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:27
  •  Thanks for info Ben.

    Brian,

    If I remember correctly (and I might not because of all the attempts and time); the 'stutter' starts the combination is usually a Vista display driver installed along with the Desktop Experience feature. XP display drivers do not have WDDM support, correct? I know the XP drivers do not support DWM. Perhaps the issue is with WDDM and the Hyper-V role. Have you tried the XP display drivers with a secondary display or a projector?

     

    Ultimately, there should have been a specific statement regarding WDDM and the Hyper-V role. This isn't the only place where people noticed it. Many blogs have written bad Hyper-V reviews specifically because there was no acknowledgement. Also, there were blogs that gave Hyper-V good reviews until RC1 was released. Comments like "Windows Server 2008 is a server product so it is not designed to be used in resource intensive operations" do not and will not cut it. It doesn't comfort anyone who just spent 10 seconds waiting to get from their Blank screen saver to the login prompt.

    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:29
  • So why not just cut WDDM out of the code, or bypass it in all cases like the XP x64 driver does?  Problem solved and Hyper-V gets no bad reviews.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:32
  • I second Mikey on the resolution support for the Virtual Machine Connection app. Any type of parameters for custom resolution...
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:32
  • Brian,

    I think that's what the XP drivers do. The Vista drivers added the support for Aero and DirectX 10. The moment that Desktop Experience is installed it notifies to system to use WDDM if it's available with the installed display adapter's drivers. When the XP drivers (or SVGA for that matter) are installed, WDDM isn't used. That would explain why the performance is the same with Aero, Aero Basic, Windows Standard and Windows Classic when using Vista drivers. I really wish this was brought to our attention a bit earlier.

    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:39
  • Correct - this is WDDM versus non-WDDM, and WDDM is not used with Windows Server by default.  You have to install a WDDM driver to enable.

    Re: Mikey Cooper - unfortunately (nut reasonably so) optimizing WDDM drivers specifically for Hyper-V is also low priority for the graphics cards manufacturers.  Also - for widescreen support remotely the easiest option is to use RDP to connect directly to the guest operating system.


    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 1:59
    Propietario
  • Removing the desktop experience didn't help; same stutter.  Anyway, why not just disable WDDM in the 1st place?  Or make it an option?  I have no need.  The XP x64 drivers were fine.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 2:04
  • Use SVGA driver == Disable WDDM.  The SVGA driver is used by default and WDDM is disabled by default.
    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 2:07
    Propietario
  • Well I am using the driver R2 gave me for a Quadro NVS 285.  I didn't change it from this: 4/11/2008 v 7.15.11.7551 with digital signer:  Microsoft Windows Hardware Compatibility Publisher.

    Now I know I can force it to SVGA, but that's not a satisfactory solution.  I get to go only 1024 wide.

    With a product this good, why risk bad reviews and not address this issue?  Let's go beat the hell out of VMWare and sell this thing.  We're not going to do that when people see this issue.  If you tell a VMWare guy that you have to use SVGA, he's just going to dismiss the product outright.


    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 2:16
  • Ben Armstrong [MSFT] said:

    Also - for widescreen support remotely the easiest option is to use RDP to connect directly to the guest operating system.

    Unfortunately that's not a solution when you've disabled RDP on the VM for security reasons, but I can live with 800x600 (1024x768 if I turn off toolbars in VMConnect).  Just another minor inconvenience to complain about is all. :)

    Thanks for taking the time to respond!  It's much appreciated!
    Mikey

    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 2:17
  • I just noticed that my Hyper-V server in the corner which has an nVidia GeForce 7800 GT installed, is using nVidia's 175.19 driver and is working fine. It's been a long time since all that testing but I seem to recall 1 or 2 of my GeForce cards working fine. Anyway, DE is not installed, but the DWM service is installed and started. This server is running flawlessly.

     

    Ben,

    Yes, the user base for workstation/notebook installation is small but we also have some of the heaviest influence over corporate purchases. Showing up at any given company with a notebook using Hyper-V, Aero and 2... hell 3 virtual machines running all while keeping great performance can have a huge impact. Most clients I work with are using VMWare and the administers are all about VMWare. This isn't an issue because the most interaction I have is with the decision makers who tend to lean towards Microsoft. The notebook I describe could be the one thing that introduces them to that new Hyper-V software they've been reading about. As this issue hasn't been touched by Microsoft (officially, team/staff blogs, etc), I'm curious if the hidden 'sales team' plays a factor in determining development priorities. Perhaps a few market research individuals could perform a small study..?

    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 2:45
  • Brian -

    Keep in mind that ESX does not have a graphical interface, so saying that VMware customers will be put off by this is stretching the point just a tad.


    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 19:05
    Propietario
  • Zac -

    Yes, we are well aware that this has an impact on people / demo'ing Hyper-V - and we will get to this "one day" - but right now we will gain more sales by shipping features like live migration than by fixing this issue.


    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    sábado, 24 de enero de 2009 19:07
    Propietario
  • Thanks, Ben and others.  I had this issue from last year and uninstalled Hyper-V immediately.  This week I wanted to do a demonstration for the local .NET community but my machine has an nVidia card (N260) and you know the rest.  On the plus side, I can revert to SVGA drivers for the time being.  It's only temporary.  I feel for those who want it for the long haul. But honestly, my company uses the Windows Hyper-V 2008 Server on two Dell rack servers for our continuous integration network without a hitch.  I would never fathom installing a decked out video card on them.  I'm agreeing with Ben on this one.  Hyper-V works for the majority as is.  To start supporting drivers just for the desktop experience is like a phase 10 milestone. :)

     

    edit: I uninstalled the latest nVidia drivers and the system installed 7.15.11.7824 drivers.  That driver was not as sluggish.  But I still had very slow performance.  I'm now forcing the display device to use the Standard VGA driver.  Wish me luck!

    edit2: No luck.  Even after reverting back to SVGA drivers, I had some sluggish.  It could be other drivers though.  I have a Creative X-Fi Elite soundcard as well, which I already know has been problematic for Vista/2008 users.  So it's back to Virtual Server 2005 R2 SP1 demonstrations. :)

    martes, 27 de enero de 2009 5:39
  • Deriven,

    Most people here aren't looking to be supported officially or unofficially. I only mention this because it's continuously is brought up in argument as to why our complaints have went unanswered (until now, thanks Ben). I would never imagine Microsoft supporting server os's for desktop use. However, when it takes 10 seconds for the screen saver to cut off; a minute or so to browse kb support articles (each page); machine almost coming to a halt when browsing Windows Explorer... all without aero or DE in use. It's a common reaction from people to assume we want to be officially supported, use the machine as a media center, play games, control the weather, etc. The main thing requested is simple usability with dual monitor support.

    I will continue to press hard for this functionality until I'm not required to develop on a server OS... and when/if that day comes I will still push for the functionality.

    martes, 27 de enero de 2009 7:38
  • I just want to make sure that you don't forget about developers. Developers need to use server OSes since doing so often leads to less problems on deployment. They also need good VM so that they can run old browsers and old OSes. They need big screen. And their next project could be Silverlight or WPF.
    And if more developers started to prefer VMware, they could push VMware over Hyper-V on next system.
    I believe MS has got today's position by doing good to developers, and MS understands developers are highly important for MS's success.
    I don't say it has to happen tomorrow. But it can't take say 3 years to fix.
    I'm not sure where the problem is, but can't DirectX or hardware vendors help? It's a matter either Hyper-V supports the flag, or they don't use the flag. Do I undestand correctly?
    lunes, 02 de febrero de 2009 12:19
  • If we're going to compare apples with apples, ESX would be more like Hyper-V Server 2008 than the Hyper-V role being installed on Server 2008.

    I just don't get how this doesn't warrant a quick fix by Microsoft when the risk of losing new customers is so obvious.  It's almost a smug attitude like "we'll get those customers sooner or later, so who cares?"

    I understand there is other development going on, but we know the XP drivers work, so why not introduce a check box to let the user disable WDDM?

    Developers and people who want to demo have a huge need for Hyper-V.  I know many Microsoft guys who still run Virtual Server on their desktops and laptops because of this issue.  It has such great potential.  Does Microsoft just prefer to keep Virtual Server around forever when this vastly superior technology exists?

    Let's just get this fixed.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    lunes, 02 de febrero de 2009 23:17
  • Just to be clear - there is no "quick fix" here.  Fixing this in Hyper-V is a very large investment, and offering to just disable WDDM would mean asking all video card manufacturers to develop two sets of video drivers for Windows.

    Trust me - we do hear your pain and understand the scenario - and if there was a quick fix it would already be in the product.  But there is not - which is why we are in this situation.


    Cheers,
    Benjamin Armstrong
    ============================
    Windows Virtualization
    Senior Lead Program Manager

    This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use.
    martes, 03 de febrero de 2009 2:24
    Propietario
  • OK, so why couldn't the installation of the Hyper-V role be set to disable or mask WDDM so that no driver sees it to make use of it?

    Maybe a fresh set of eyes on this (Russinovich!) would help.  Working on something every day can get you a calloused eye.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 03 de febrero de 2009 2:42
  • Brian Mason said:

    OK, so why couldn't the installation of the Hyper-V role be set to disable or mask WDDM so that no driver sees it to make use of it?

    Maybe a fresh set of eyes on this (Russinovich!) would help.  Working on something every day can get you a calloused eye.


    Microsoft MVP - SCCM


    WDDM is an entire platform and architecture around which display drivers are written.  If they did invest the time and added a WDDM kill-switch, you would be prevented from installing the newer high-end WDDM drivers from manufacturers.  You would then have the exact same options you have now... use the Super VGA driver or use an older driver that is built around the XP display model, not WDDM.

    Flipping a WDDM kill-switch would prevent drivers built around the WDDM architecture from working at all, not somehow make the WDDM drivers ignore WDDM and downgrade to behave like XP.
    martes, 03 de febrero de 2009 11:27
  • Hi,

    I'm glad to see that there is an active discussion on this issue. Hopefully Microsoft will come up with a solution.. looking forward to it. :)

    Dan
    jueves, 05 de febrero de 2009 4:25
  • OS identity change?

    What if we faked the operating system's signature, the 6.x.y.z number which every installer wants to check, down to something that looks like XP64?

    I'm basically investigating a way to tell some of the install kits they are running on XP64. The matter now hurts me on Windows7 beta where several important installation programs such as the BIOS update, AI, OC, etc. won't run. Solving the matter through the global system signature might also be applicable to the nVIDIA driver problems with 2008 server.

    Perhaps we can come up with a registry patch to re-configure some version signatures, as well as the tool to swap the identities back and forth... Hmmm...

    Best whishes.
    domingo, 15 de febrero de 2009 3:16
  • I guess all the developers here will switch to VMWare when Windows 2008 R2 is released. No Microsoft product is suitable for the desktop for testing software on a X64 OS and there won't be a X86 version of Windows 2008 R2.

    martes, 17 de febrero de 2009 16:32
  • I know this will come off as if I'm being a baby about this, but I agree that I can't recommend Hyper-V knowing a fix won't be coming even in Hyper-V 2.  I'm not going to push it on my virtualization team.  That'll be another battle for another day.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 17 de febrero de 2009 17:02
  • Well, there is so much I would like to say but we've been at this for more than 8 months so I think I've said everything. Actually Brian, you mentioned "fresh set of eyes" and that sounded like a perfect response to this issue's verdict. On another note I'll add that yes, workstations are mostly unsupported but they are a requirement for doing any type of SharePoint work. As the Visual Studio tools for SharePoint have been years behind, I don't expect much for supported workstation configurations.
    martes, 17 de febrero de 2009 17:59
  • I have the same experience as the rest - except I have a ATI card. Now I'm trying to figure out how to install ATI XP64 drivers on my system. The card is a X1600.

    I'f anyone has done this - let me know. I can't find any solutions so far.

    I really noticed the stuttering graphics problem with Google Earth. Taking off Hyper-V quickly fixed the problem.
    miércoles, 25 de febrero de 2009 3:02
  • This has become a long thread, but I'm pretty sure the various methods have been mentioned (extracting inf from exe\updating using the have disk method, etc).  Unless or course, you have R2 in which case you can just forget Hyper-V.
    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    miércoles, 25 de febrero de 2009 3:05
  • <quote>the user base for workstation/notebook installation is small but we also have some of the heaviest influence over corporate purchases</quote>

    This is the piece that I think they don't understand when they do cost/benefit analysis on this fix vs. something like live migration.

    The people trying to run Hyper-V on high end laptops are Senior Developers, Architects, Tech. Leads, and IT Managers.

    I make the buying decisions for my company. We went with VMWare (after trying Hyper-V first) because myself and the development team lead were able to play with VMWare on my laptop and a couple of development workstations. We really liked VMWare in our development environment. So, it made complete sense to use it for our server consolidation in the data center.

    Hyper-V was a non-starter for our server consolidation project because  no one had any real world experience with it because we couldn't use it on development workstations or power-user laptops.
    Anthony King
    martes, 03 de marzo de 2009 23:32
  • Don't forget.... (Not as good)

    Web Developers web developers web developers web developers
    Web Developers web developers web developers web developers
    Web Developers web developers web developers web developers
    Web Developers web developers web developers web developers
    Web Developers web developers web developers web developers...

    Adding my 2 cents that I have thus far bitten my tongue over....

    I no longer use Windows 2008 Server with Hyper-V as my Workstation.

    I am using Sun's Virtual Box on Windows 7 and IT ROCKS and WORKS!

    I would use Windows 2008 R2 Server with Hyper-V as my Workstation if THIS problem went away.

    Instead I am using Sun's Virtual Box and I have my test machines running in there and if I need to run up some images I simply don't add the 'GuestAdditions' and 'SysPrep' the image (as I can natively use VMWare VHDK or MSFT VHD files) I simply copy the VHD image to a Hyper-V server and start her up,  install Hyper-V IC's and away I go. It add's one step of having to add the Hyper-V IC's but aside from that I have a Workstation THAT WORKS.

    Devlopers, Web Developers, Architects, IT Techs and many other high level IT workers are using Virtualization more and more, even hobbiest's with sandbox environments and NOTHING from Microsoft to run x64 machines on Windows is beyond words...


    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    jueves, 05 de marzo de 2009 5:47
  • I happened to read DXGI 1.1 documentation at
    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=81be16f6-417a-4dac-9e86-49331d5d2303

    which mentions Direct3D command remoting requires "The client and server computers must be using the Windows Vista Display Driver Model and have Direct3D 9 or later hardware installed."  But we can't install Hyper-V on such servers without seeing this issue, right?

     I think most of us here understand the difficulty of the "quick fix" thanks to your explanations.  The real question now would be whether it'd be fixed in R2 time frame or not.  Without words on it, it'd be hard to convince people around us to start using Hyper-V now.
    martes, 17 de marzo de 2009 7:38
  • Just got bitten by this one, wish I had found this thread earlier!  We recently migrated our servers to Hyper-V (from VMWare Server).  Upgrading our developer desktops / laptops from vmware was delayed slightly while we upgraded hardware, but now we have hit this.  It's looking like we moved to hyper-v too soon. I don't understand why this hasn't been a bigger issue for development houses?  Don't pretty much all developers run vms from their desktops these days?  Don't they all have multiple monitors? 
    lunes, 23 de marzo de 2009 2:12
  • This is further proof that the poor design of the new Vista display model has introduced new graphics limitations that will haunt Windows for years to come.

    This issue is not just with Server 2008 and Hyper-V. It also affected many pieces of display-realted software/functionality (Hello? MaxiVista? - Thanks Microsoft for killing the best VNC utility ever invented with your disasterous new display model). I won't even get into the whole killing of video card's "Theatre mode" option. (What a downgrade!)

    I love Vista/2008 and appreciate many of its modern enhancements, but this poor design comes up again and again in the realm of display/graphics. I'm on a wing and a prayer that this might all be fixed in Directx 11, but it could be that the genie is out of the bottle and Video Card driver makers are already committed to the Vista display model until the next major foundational upgrade, which probably won't be for another 5-10 years.

    So far i'm okay with WDDM and hyper-v, but one things for sure: I'm not buying a license for Server 2008 R2 if it means crippling my server's desktop experience.
    martes, 07 de abril de 2009 20:53
  • Yeah, I can't take the lag anymore so I'll reimage to Win7 and load up VMWare.  Since Hyper-V 2 won't address it, I know I can't wait forever.  I really hate that R2 prevents me from loading an XP x64 driver.  And I really hate giving up on Hyper-V.  I wish they had put a freah set of eyes on this like Russinovich.  What could it hurt?

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    martes, 07 de abril de 2009 22:22
  • Yeah, I can't take the lag anymore so I'll reimage to Win7 and load up VMWare.  Since Hyper-V 2 won't address it, I know I can't wait forever.  I really hate that R2 prevents me from loading an XP x64 driver.  And I really hate giving up on Hyper-V.  I wish they had put a freah set of eyes on this like Russinovich.  What could it hurt?

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM

    Brian,

    Do give Sun's Virtual Box a run, I am most impressed and 'staging' VHD's in Virtual Box and then moving them to Hyper-V (After a Sysprep) works very well for me on Windows 7.
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    miércoles, 08 de abril de 2009 5:21
  • Wow--I can't believe this issue is still unresolved.  At first I thought that since this issue was brought up last June that for sure a solution would have come by now, but after spending several hours I didn't have reading through posts, I eventually skipped the last few months.

    So I didn't read Jan-March or so.  Is there still no end in sight?  I'm running Server 2008 on a 965 Core i7 with 12 GB of ram, and hyper-v still kills my performance.  Without hyper-v Matlab and Maple load at the snap of my finger.  With hyper-v just installed, not even setup, it takes 10 seconds to resize an explorer window.

    I know everyone here more than well knows what I'm talking about so I'm not trying to preach--I just want to add about a pennies' worth of comments.  Running Hyper-v is the first time I have seen the CPU meter rise about 5% and it frequently shoots up to 100%.  Awful...


    By the way, I'm using also using a 9600 GT.
    miércoles, 08 de abril de 2009 5:38
  • This is further proof that the poor design of the new Vista display model has introduced new graphics limitations that will haunt Windows for years to come.

    This issue is not just with Server 2008 and Hyper-V. It also affected many pieces of display-realted software/functionality (Hello? MaxiVista? - Thanks Microsoft for killing the best VNC utility ever invented with your disasterous new display model). I won't even get into the whole killing of video card's "Theatre mode" option. (What a downgrade!)

    I love Vista/2008 and appreciate many of its modern enhancements, but this poor design comes up again and again in the realm of display/graphics. I'm on a wing and a prayer that this might all be fixed in Directx 11, but it could be that the genie is out of the bottle and Video Card driver makers are already committed to the Vista display model until the next major foundational upgrade, which probably won't be for another 5-10 years.

    So far i'm okay with WDDM and hyper-v, but one things for sure: I'm not buying a license for Server 2008 R2 if it means crippling my server's desktop experience.

     

    Matias,

     

    It's one thing to make negative comments regarding this specific issue but quite another to start rambling about your opinions of Vista. No one here has addressed the concern of Vista's display model in the sense you have. In fact, a considerable number of us frequently develop while taking advantage of it. If you think about it, most people are here because they enjoy DWM and are upset with how the Hyper-V role is conflicting with it. I completely disagree with your claims of "poor design". The statement couldn't be further from the truth.

     

    Desktop Window Manager introduced an easy to use, highly efficient and incredibly flexible platform for everyone from hardware developers, web designers and even inexperienced hobbyists to tap into. Its consistency is fantastic and it is a required link to move us to Windows 7 and beyond.

     

    I have little doubt that the developers of the applications you mentioned failed to follow Microsoft's guidelines for what they were attempting. So when the new version of Windows was released, all of the application compatibility methods Microsoft included simply didn't apply to their work. And yes, I can empathize with developers who've taken that path. The 'tweak' or workaround to provide additional and unsupported functionality. However, once you choose that path, you need to own it and adapt.

     

    Ranting like this is exactly how ill conceptions of Vista blossomed in the first place. The majority of Anti-Vista claims have no merit and stem from uninformed individuals. The only thing wrong with Vista's display is that ATI and NVIDIA are the only two performance card manufacturers. I've had more BSOD's in 98 and XP because of some nv****.sys file than any other problem I've encountered.

     

    If you want to place blame for display issues, blame them. That's been their primary product for what, a decade or so? To this day they still can't seem to get it right even though my video cards tend to price around $400-$500. I'm sure that is somehow a fault in Windows right? Well except for the people using Linux who experience the same issues.

     

    Anyway, this topic is to address a specific issue with Windows Server 2008 once the Hyper-V role is enabled. And so you know, there was a period in which it worked flawlessly, even with the dreaded Vista display model. This includes running games like Crysis in SLI with SQL Server running in the background and a child virtual machine delivering web content. This issue is SPECIFIC to Hyper-V and how it's implemented.

     

    Hopefully I wasn't too offensive.

     

     

    Zac

    miércoles, 08 de abril de 2009 8:15
  • I've got a nvidia 280 GTX card and can't seem to get the XP x64 drivers to install. I've tried to just browse to the directory and even the "have disk" method. The latter will allow me to install the drivers but after the reboot the only change is what the driver name is. I've got no nvidia control panel and under advanced settings>adapter all the fields are <unavailable> or n/a. Any ideas? This is a fairly clean installation of Server 2008 SP2 x64.
    jueves, 09 de julio de 2009 3:37
  • Hello,

    I have a problem related to this one, but I have so solution at the moment.
    I have installed a Windows 2008 R2 RC (last one from MSDN) on a computer that has a ATI Radeon 4350 (fanless) (same problem with a geForce 9600). The problem is that the resolution of windows can not exceed the 1680 * 1050 with the default Windows driver. As my screen has a native resolution of 1920 * 1200, I have a problem. So, I have to install the catalyst softwares (to support the 1920 * 1200).
    With the drivers, my computer become really slow (5 minutes to boot instead of less than one minute). If I remove the driver (or hyper-v), all is fine again.
    Is there a way to add the resolution 1920 * 1200 to the ones allowed by Windows (without the catalyst drivers)? Actually, it is either impossible to work normally (speed problem) or impossible to use the native resolution.


    Thank you
    Marc
    • Propuesto como respuesta Mark Bakker NL viernes, 31 de julio de 2009 16:40
    martes, 21 de julio de 2009 5:13
  • Hello there,

    i have read every article about this issue over the last year. And i keep on switching back to VMWARE. I have converted my VM's several times from VMDK to VHD and back again to VMDK. Today i tried Hyperv again and while typing am converting back to VMDK. I have Nvidia 9600GT installed. Everyone can guess the rest.... Horrible it is...Still... After @ least 1 year now, Nothing really has changed, the problem is getting worser, since R2 doesnt accept the (poor) workaround to install X64 XP drivers. Enabling XP drivers = stop playing games like BF andso.


    I agree that this issue isn't that easy to solve, but perhaps Vendors like Nvidia and ATI could come up with drivers for Server 2008 with HyperV enabled. M$ could push them to do so.


    When using the vga or svga driver the system ROCKS!!!
     
    But for al my certifications i have from M$, i need some testing material right? I dont own a datacenter, and lots of you aren't. So this issue should get a high priority. I think there are thousands of people experiencing the same issue. Not very good for reputation.

    Last week I was rejected @ new client, since he wanted to implement Hyperv on a very large scale, i though nice project, but was fair enough to tell him i didnt had the time to play with hyperv yet, all was theory.

    I told him about the issues with certain hardware and he desided to take another Hypervisor instead.

     

    And i didn’t got the job obviously.


    Still I have very little experience with HyperV, so difficult to sell myself, I don’t like training on the job, want to be prepared very well. Unfornutely after 1 year I still have the exact same issues.

     

    M$ you should really address this, making money is important, and M$ makes money because of guys like us convincing customers of these products and giving demonstrations. And yeah that happens on laptops and desktops.

     

    Regards

     

    Mark

    viernes, 31 de julio de 2009 17:03
  • Mark,

    I agree. I too have given up on many of the ideas I had to use and demo Hyper-V. With the RC0, I had Hyper-V enabled on my notebooks and desktop which allowed for easy demo to client. People were interested however, once RC1 was released it was all down hill. I haven't completely abandoned it as I run it on a small server and simply RDP to the virtuals. This 'issue' cost a very large implementation with a pharma company and they went with doubling their ESX environment which was large to begin with. I no longer loose sleep over this as I don't feel anyone at MS has lost anything (other than customers) over this.

    Zac
    viernes, 31 de julio de 2009 17:21
  • Back to VMWARE again.

    Tried everything. When you use the XP 64 Bits drivers, is goes a bit better, but every now and then a BSOD on the Nivida Mini.sys.
    Since there is no acceptable solution to this problem, lots of people are forced on going back to VMWARE. Because to be honest. VMWARE Workstation is better than Virtual PC, in many ways. HyperV beat the ____ out of every HyperVisor if you ask me. But using vga.sys or svga.sys is really no solution.

    I really hoped someone found a real solution to this problem, but still we havent found one. Tried absolutely everything.

    I refuse to buy me a new system again!, Since i purchased my current system for Hyperv purposes.
    Specs are

    MB ASUS P5BQ-E
    Q9450 @ 2.66 GHZ
    Nvidia 9600GT
    8 GB COrsair Dominator XMS @ 1200 MHZ
    5 X 500 GB in RAID 5 (2 TB for VM's and stuf)
    500 Gb Disk Games
    1TB Disk For Windows and Backup

    The system is awesome fast i can tell you, but then again only with the Hyperv role NOT installed. Once installed, performace is really poor.
    The filesystem writes and reads about 200-350 MB per second. So this is great for the VM's, They boot up in seconds!

    M$ you really left one here. Cant understand why this isn't on the top of priority list. Since you loosing money because we are not able to give proper HyperV demonstrations.
    Lots of people go for XEN 5.0 or if they want to pay alot deside to run on the proven technolygy that ESX is.

    Windows is famous of its GUI capabilities. It is impossible to use 2 systems for a DEMO, it just should be working on a laptop with high end videocard. Of my home PC from where i learn all this stuff. Cant imagine that the engineers @ microsft dont suffer from this issue? Mulitboot is horrible workaround and not acceptable for most people.

    I really like to show people the power of HyperV, but is isn;t possible, giving a demo with just the vgs.sys is impossible, looks horrible, and prjocting to a beamer is hopeless.

    For now back to VMWARE (Used SUN virtual box also, os great product, as long as you do not need to PXE boot, is horrible slow in VB)
    Regards,

    Mark

    domingo, 02 de agosto de 2009 9:09
  • They were tracking this once at https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=356939&wa=wsignin1.0

    But I've heard that this is too low on the radar to be addressed anytime soon.  Perhaps anytime ever.   I obviously share your frustration, Mark.  Maybe in a year or two this will be addressed and we can go back to being big Hyper-V fans and advocates.  I still works great in the lab where I logon remotely.

    Microsoft MVP - SCCM
    lunes, 03 de agosto de 2009 14:58
  • Why are people so hung up on this? Hyper-V is designed to go against ESX - how many ESX hosts have you seen that have ESX installed AND are a usable host? Yeah, I haven't seen any either nor do I expect to see any. We have 30+ ESX hosts (sorry MS, not my choice) running in our organization. I certainly don't expect to be able to sit down at a console and play games or browse the web - that's not what they're intended to do. Just because you get the familiar Windows interface when you add the Hyper-V role doesn't mean it should function like any other Windows machine; if this fact needs to be more obvious, install pure Hyper-V and see if you're still hung up on browsing the web or playing your games - it doesn't do it, it's not intended to.

    I for one hope Microsoft doesn't fix this - it's a waste of time and effort that can be used to further improve Hyper-V. If you want a Windows Server 2008 machine that you can use like any other computer, install Windows Server 2008 and leave it at that - don't add Hyper-V. I for one have a dedicated Hyper-V box at home and two Windows Server 2008 boxes, both with VMware Server. The Hyper-V box is just that, a headless box that runs Hyper-V solid as a rock. The other two have VMware Server because I use both consoles as HTPCs and yes, with Hyper-V installed it's terrible. I for one have accepted that and moved on. If you want a rock-solid kick-a$$ alternative to ESX, install Hyper-V and leave the box alone.
    lunes, 03 de agosto de 2009 15:32
  •  

    HillJack,

     

    If you had read just a few of the posts you would have answered your own question. The simplest point I can give you is that these workstations would be great marketing tools. With a market saturated with competition you need something that catches the eyes of the target customers. Something needs to spark the interest but also be available to answer questions. Many of us who have written here are consultants who work in front of large organizations throughout the year.

    Microsoft's normal Hyper-V advertisements do spark interest with some individuals but having it immediately available to demo (not over RDP) would be an increased benefit. You must understand that the initial interest is usually shot down by some individual in their IT department who runs into this issue and immediately removes the spark of interest that had developed.

    Also, don't bring ESX directly into this. The discussion is not about ESX and what you can and cannot do with it. This discussion is about Hyper-V and the ability to leverage developers and consultants to help spread interest into companies. I've been in multiple situations where a Hyper-V notebook would have helped set the company purchaser far enough along that they would have made a decision. Instead, I spent my time discussing how this very issue isn't really a big deal because no one really runs a server product with high performance display adapters.

    I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with how you're saying it. We all hold certain interest in products and features, and we have our reasons. If you took the time to read what other people have expressed here before you jumped in to slam us, you might have kept your opinion to yourself. Well, maybe you would have expressed it, just not in an imperialistic way.

     

    Zac

    lunes, 03 de agosto de 2009 18:18
  • Hello,

    Hilljack
    Some of the reasons why this issue should be solved (important)
    1) 1920 * 1200 = impossible to have native resolution. so you NEED drivers (AMD and Nvidia) so no hyper-v with a GPU like that and a 24 inch screen (same problem with a CRT screen, you can't do 70-100 Hz. Only 50 Hz. Simply having these resolutions would be great.
    2) Microsoft likes talking about saving energy, so it it obvious that recommending one new computer (one to work and one to do virtualisation because of 1) is not very Energy Efficient.
    3) We plan to do something in 3D. What will happen? Will we need to buy a new computer for virtualisation? In that case, why Hyper-V and not Xen of VMWare? What would be the use of Hyper-V if it can't do anything more than other programs?


    Marc
    martes, 04 de agosto de 2009 3:55
  • Zac,

    Actually I have been following this thread since its inception because, as I stated in my post, I have experienced the same issues. And I did not jump in to "slam" anyone, so if I came across that way I appologize; I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I just sit here perplexed at why people are pretty much expecting that their hypervisor box also perform other tasks?

    Posts here keep dangling the "so they went with VMware instead" line. This is almost a threat to Microsoft to "fix" this "issue." C'mon, really? Any real organization serious on virtualization has dedicated hosts. High-availability is sort of defeated when you have a Hyper-V host have with users browsing the web on it. It just doesn't make sense.

    I used ESX as an example - a hypervisor that does just that, nothing else. Nobody (I assume) is bashing VMware for their ESX hosts not having a pretty UI. Even Microsoft themselves say not to add additional roles to a Hyper-V host, not even simple DNS. To me, that implies that I shouldn't expect performance from the host at the console when I dedicate the box to Hyper-V, but I should expect great performance from the VMs running on the host. I get amazing performance from all my Hyper-V VMs and they are rock solid because there are no other applications running on the host to cause conflicts - this is why we segregate applications and services on to their own individual machines, isn't it? The host is the host. It's job is to be a hypervisor, which it does exceptionally well. Is it Microsoft's fault that someone put Exchange 2007 and SQL 2005 on the same box and the performance is absolutely terrible? No, I didn't think so either.
    martes, 04 de agosto de 2009 23:01
  •  

    HillJack,

     

    I think there's a few things going on and when put together they make people expect, or at least hope for, more. First, and I think most importantly, this worked superbly in previous release candidates. Ben provided some information on what was changed and why. I also understand that there could have been substantial changes made that would make any easy workaround that we've been searching for impossible. With that said, I don't know if that's the case because of the different results users experience when trying different drivers. I honestly believe that if this never worked then there would be a must smaller number of people searching for a "solution". Yes, it is one of those annoying situations were you try to give someone something (even if this functionality was unintended) and you end up getting more flack than if it was never available at all.

     

    Another point is that their enterprise virtualization platform is a little late to the game. We can all agree on this and understand that they need to break into the market. To do this there are a few different methods. The one discussed heavily in this forum is to allow consultants or similarly positioned Microsoft Partners to act as an underground sales team. We're the ones who push a good deal of the latest server products by both experience and demonstration.

     

    When demonstrating these products it's okay that they're off location and talking points hold weight as well. You may not agree with me but I do feel that Hyper-V would benefit more if it was a hands on demo. You must remember that this is a larger purchase than normal server software and some customers feel it is larger than OS changes as it is the foundation for all that is virtual in their business. If there was the ability, even if unsupported, to run this on a notebook it would allow us to capture the slightest spark of interest. "Great, so you've heard about Hyper-V. Well it just so happens I use it right here on my notebook, let me show you some of what it can do." I know that a system administrator could care less, it's really just one more tool to help capture and spread interest around the organizations.

     

    Look, I understand and really agree with what you're saying. It's just that I'm trying to look at this from a slightly different angle. I must also mention that the ability was there before. All of the evidence points to a solution/fix would be with a slightly enhanced driver for the display adapter. I don't know for sure but it seems with all of the people out there willing and able to perform the tasks mentioned above, it could be in Microsoft's best interest to stick an engineer on 20 hour research duty to find out what would be involved. Based on the research, Microsoft could then have a response for thread's such as this.

     

    Nobody here knows if this is a very small thing that we could work around editing a text file or if it would involve rewriting the product, testing from all angles, creating patches globally, etc. We just want a response other than the "related to a memory leak" excuse that took what, 8 months or so after we've all been involved. You must admit, for all of the confusion and concern that was floating around here and the blogosphere, that response was too little too late.

     

    I want to remind you that I agree with your points completely however, I feel that those apply if there isn't a small, maybe unsupported "fix". It's kind of like how Ben runs games inside Virtual PC inside Windows inside Hyper-V…

     

    I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing and probably have similar expectations; it's just the angle of our approach differs.

     

     

    Zac

    martes, 04 de agosto de 2009 23:55
  • Zac,

    We have Ben on 'research duty' with the 'HDoaLC' project and I am waiting, watching, hoping for an update from him on what drivers/hardware he is using and when/if a post will appear here or on his blog regarding everything above :P

    http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archive/tags/HDoaLC/default.aspx

    Cheers,

    Stephen
    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    jueves, 06 de agosto de 2009 4:12
  • Hilljack

    Haha,

    a threat to Microsoft? C'mon man!  I also tried products as Virtual Box from sun, and that is OK. I use VMWARE for my own reasons, no threat @ all. But software virtualization is not the same as Hardware based virtualization isn't it? I really like to use a Hypervisor with GUI powers! And that is Microsoft. But since that is not possible i am forced to used products like VMWARE or VB. I am talking about the workstation, variants! So they run on top of my Server 2008 OS.

    We only work with M$ products and we sort of hoped HYPERV1 would run great on a heavy workstation or laptop for demo and testing purposes. We also are a learningcenter and want to learn people how Hyperv Works. Our learning facilities are all Workstations. Same issue there. Horrible when installing 3D drivers. (Almost any videocard uses advanced drivers!) Mulitbooting or switching/flipping the driver just isn't a option.

    The reason M$ has an advantage is because of its GUI powers. Otherwise we settled with ESX or XEN. But since the GUI is worthless when enabling HYPERV role, we just cant give a proper demo. To be honest, we want to use it also @ home. If we want to learn things, then we must install it and play with it. We dont like practice on the job. What alot of IT people do!

    We do not own any datacenters and won't buy a new system or go back to VGA.sys. Our systems rocks! Hyperv rocks! But not with a proper videocard installed.

    All i want to say that it is very shortviewing of M$ and you, to think that this costs money to solve and other blabla, nonsense, i am a specialist in the System Center suite. So i know what i am talking about and we are Gold Partner. If we were able to promote and demo Hyperv abit, alot of customers would have choosen for that product. I also talk about giving training to customer or other IT staff that need to learn. I sold alot of products like SCCM, SCOM, FCS anso, because I can play with those products in my virtual environment and know alot of those products. Hyperv testing on a VMWARE workstation guest just isn't done, dont you think? Same goes for ESX or XEN. You cannot virtualize the