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  • Question

  • We have a customer with SG 4.1 which is complaining for poor performance when launching applications.
    The customer has 3 sites connected over WAN  .
    At the moment there's only only SG management server on the main site.
    I'd like to know if we should configure additional management server or streaming server on the remote sites .

    Also how can we implement load balancing in the main site ? Can we add an additional SG management server and use NLB ?
    thanks


    thanks

    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:28 AM

Answers

  • Hello,

    Well, basically the same steps apply for a 4.1 environment, however I had to google this for you:
    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb897450.aspx

    If you are 100% that its the _application startup_ time that is slow, and _sure_ that not the authentication, streaming or any other overhead that may play into this, I would look into an upgrade scenario and look around the forums for tips to enhance performance, apply those and resequence the applications.

    /ZNack
    • Proposed as answer by znack Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:14 PM
    • Marked as answer by Aaron.ParkerModerator Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:24 PM
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:17 AM

All replies

  • Hello,

    1. Determine what is slow
    - Is it because the application starts slowly?
    -Is it because the client authenticates against a central-server?
    -Is it because SG needs to stream something?
    -Is it because it adds some other overhead?
    2. Read the Design guide;
    http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/b/c/5bc966bc-47d8-41df-95f2-fa9a2d816258/Microsoft%20Application%20Virtualization%204.5.zip
    3. Consider what options you have available and create a test-scenario to see what upgrading or reconfigurinering any component would do.


    (I have no idea if to add a management server/streaming-server, or provide a load balancing solution considering that the root cause if your problem can have many possible solutions - if you detail which part of the launching process causes the problem and what its limited by, perhaps then we can determine a more hands-on solution)
    /Znack

    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:54 AM
  • Most of the users complains about application launch time ( Slow starts ) .
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:46 AM
  • Actually the version of SG in production is 4.1
    thanks

    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:49 AM
  • Hello,

    Well, basically the same steps apply for a 4.1 environment, however I had to google this for you:
    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb897450.aspx

    If you are 100% that its the _application startup_ time that is slow, and _sure_ that not the authentication, streaming or any other overhead that may play into this, I would look into an upgrade scenario and look around the forums for tips to enhance performance, apply those and resequence the applications.

    /ZNack
    • Proposed as answer by znack Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:14 PM
    • Marked as answer by Aaron.ParkerModerator Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:24 PM
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:17 AM
  • Hi ZNack ,
      your help is great .
      It's not easy , however , to differentiate the various delay that single steps might introduce .
      I should enable protocol analyzer on the desktop while experiencing the problem ( which is randomic ) . 
      I'll give a look at the docs you provided .

      Today I moved the DB instance from MSDE to a SQL server 2005 ,thought it might improve something .
    thanks
     
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:31 PM
  • Znack,
       if we want to install another SG server (4.1)  to other sites is it possible to link it to the "central" site and manage them as one entity in regards of the packages created or do we have to setup them separately and copy each package on each SG server ?
     Thanks
     
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:44 PM
  • I think the big questoin to still answer is the slow time Load or Launch.

    Load is the first time the user attempts to start a virtual application and it needs to be loaded from the Management Server (this is usually referred to as streaming).

    Launch is the process of checking for authorization to run the application after the virtual application has been loaded.

    If Load is slow, that could be based on clients across the WAN having to pull the blocks of data over a leased line that isn't as fast as a LAN based network.  Since you are using App-V 4.1 there is no option for Streaming Servers, IIS Servers, or File servers for additonal locations.  You would need to implement additional 4.1 Management Servers.

    If Launch is slow then it could be the authorization piece or it could be the sequencing of the applicatoin that possibly includes additional resources that aren't required or an application that isn't very good at being virtualized.  Things like numerous registry reads during startup will slow the launch time down.  One note is that virtual applications don't launch as quickly as traditionally installed, but for most applications this is not noticable.

    mattmcdermott
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:49 PM
    Moderator
  • I think the big questoin to still answer is the slow time Load or Launch.

    Load is the first time the user attempts to start a virtual application and it needs to be loaded from the Management Server (this is usually referred to as streaming).

    Launch is the process of checking for authorization to run the application after the virtual application has been loaded.

    If Load is slow, that could be based on clients across the WAN having to pull the blocks of data over a leased line that isn't as fast as a LAN based network.  Since you are using App-V 4.1 there is no option for Streaming Servers, IIS Servers, or File servers for additonal locations.  You would need to implement additional 4.1 Management Servers.

    If Launch is slow then it could be the authorization piece or it could be the sequencing of the applicatoin that possibly includes additional resources that aren't required or an application that isn't very good at being virtualized.  Things like numerous registry reads during startup will slow the launch time down.  One note is that virtual applications don't launch as quickly as traditionally installed, but for most applications this is not noticable.

    mattmcdermott

    So in our case , if we want to be sure the load is not the problem , we have to install another management server in the additional sites  .
    I understand that MS are not connected to each other and do not share the SQL DB , correct ?
    thanks

    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:57 PM
  • Yes that is correct.  I would suspect that the initial load time would be the culprit.  Remember that the slow load will only happen one time and after that the virtual application will be cached and should open much more quickly.  So it is a trade-off for the first time use vs having additional administrative overhead of several management servers and dbs to manage.

    One more question, why not go to 4.5.  WIth 4.5 you could have one centrally manageed or a couple of centrally managed App-V Management Servers and then have IIS or a File server at each of the locations supplying the SFT file for load.  Then the only management would be for adding in ASR to those clients and replication of the content.

    Is this a licensing issue where they were licensed for 4.1 but never purchased MDOP to give them access to the newer versions?

    mattmcdermott
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:40 PM
    Moderator
  • Yes that is correct.  I would suspect that the initial load time would be the culprit.  Remember that the slow load will only happen one time and after that the virtual application will be cached and should open much more quickly.  So it is a trade-off for the first time use vs having additional administrative overhead of several management servers and dbs to manage.

    One more question, why not go to 4.5.  WIth 4.5 you could have one centrally manageed or a couple of centrally managed App-V Management Servers and then have IIS or a File server at each of the locations supplying the SFT file for load.  Then the only management would be for adding in ASR to those clients and replication of the content.

    Is this a licensing issue where they were licensed for 4.1 but never purchased MDOP to give them access to the newer versions?

    mattmcdermott

    Correct . It's a license problem . They only bought 200 license for mdop but have 1200 4.1 clients .
    Do you think there would be problems running 4.5 servers and 4.1 clients ?
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:42 PM
  • Hello,

    Hope you are upgrading those licenses eventually (why else bother trying to fix this?).

    Anyways, try the following;
    1. Set the client to offline mode - any difference?
    2. Upgrade troublesome clients (only a few) to 4.5, any difference?
    3. Set upgraded clients to offline mode, any difference?
    4. Resequence a troublesome application with 4.5 and deploy to an upgraded client - make sure you read those best practices first..., any difference?

    So, did you make any performance gains in any of the steps?

    /Znack
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:32 PM
  • Hi znack
      as you can understand I'm taking over an installation I didn't make .
      I'm setting up a test plan which is quite similar to what you suggested , biut it will take time .

      thanks for the inputs you gave up to now

    stefano
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:04 PM
  • One thing to note on licensing.  I believe only the 200 clients that are licensed for MDOP can use a 4.5 server.  The rest will have to use a 4.1 server.

    I am not 100 percent on this but if you check with Microsoft I am sure they will clear it up.

    mattmcdermott
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:00 PM
    Moderator
  • yes , in fact we still have to manage 4.1 server :-(
    thanks
    Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:01 PM
  • About compability:

    App-V 4.1 clients would NOT be able to contact a 4.5 Server, because MSFT changed the authentication model (however it works to connect a 4.5 Client to a 4.1 Server), so because of the licensing difference you'd have to maintain two different environments (which is not that trivial).

    For troubleshooting, it might be helpfull to increase the client's log level to 4 and review it for launch/load times (that is no fun at all, but may help) after you made the testings that Znack suggested.

    You have to enforce the customer to give you some more detailed information, at least to encourage the users to react immediatetly if a slow launch occurs (what time / user / user / machine / application). Only then you could check the logs for certaint time stamps.


    Falko
    Thursday, August 6, 2009 7:32 AM
    Moderator