locked
I'm not just a PC "power user", its my WORK. Windows 8 is an insult - Part 1

    General discussion

  • This isn't about wanting to log onto Facebook with my desktop PC and refusing to adjust to a touch based OS. This is about going to work every day and creating graphics, coding websites, editing video, working on spreadsheets, and using a Desktop PC to its full advantages. After 20 years of being a loyal Windows user, despite listening to endless drivel from elitist Apple fans, Microsoft has not only decided to alienate me and others like me, but they are doing it rudely without addressing any of our concerns. I predict one of the biggest flops of all time. Windows 8 will dwarf Vista and Me when it comes to war stories about bad OS's. This time, however, there is an added element of snide and pretentiousness . . as if Microsoft has declared themselves the new master of my PC use, and in term, my livelihood.

    This will surely fall on deaf ears, but its more therapeutic for me to just say right here and right now, that the second Microsoft stops supporting Windows 7 is the last second I will consider myself a Microsoft customer. I will go Mac or Linux before I ever allow you to dictate how I will use my computer, store my files on my OWNED hard-drive rather than your "cloud" advertising research tool, or accept that designing for systems 1/10th the power of an average desktop PC is somehow "the future."

    Unless massive changes are made at this company and Windows 9 addresses these concerns, I'm done.

    - A 20 Year Windows User


    Monday, June 04, 2012 12:16 AM

All replies

  • Chuck, you and I are birds of a feather.  We need our OS to support real work.  Lots of it.

    Are you willing to try going through steps to turn Windows 8 back into a desktop-centric work center?  It's actually possible.  It takes some doing but Windows 8 can be turned into a helluva nice workstation OS.  I'm not sure it's better than Windows 7 in very many ways, but at least it's possible to stay current.

    EMail me and I'll send you a free copy of my Windows 8 eBook to review (I need feedback from folks like you).  Go through that and you may start to feel differently about Windows 8.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, June 04, 2012 12:53 AM
  • +1 to you Chuck.  I feel practically the same way.  Windows ME was terrible.  Vista was bad out of the door--mostly due to the famous Longhorn reset and the effect it has on OEM and drivers--but after SP1 (and really after SP2) Vista's performance is almost on par with Windows 7.  I have no problem at all with using a fully updated SP2 Vista computer.  However, some elements of the Vista UI are still frustrating.

    With that said, nothing in ME and Vista (UI wise that is) is as frustrating as the Windows 8 Start Screen.  I really don't mind Metro.  If it were implemented similar to how Media Center was introduced (and now removed due to some misinterpretation of "telemetry"), I could easily see where Metro style applications would eventually make inroads and change how we interact with computers.  It is the unnecessary and forceful introduction of the Start Screen that really has me so frustrated that I try to find native methods of avoiding the Start Screen (and no, I don't want any third party solutions).  What makes this so much worse is that Windows 8 is really a positive move the right direction performance wise.  The real killer is MSFT bureaucracy and their half-hearted chase for the elusive tablet market.  And please don't get me started on the decision to remove DVD playback from Media Player.  SHM in disgust.

    In the past, MSFT put the full Windows desktop on tablets/phones/ultramobiles which failed miserably.  Now they figure if they do an inverse, they will find success by putting a tablet UI on desktop computers.  I understand the rational; if consumers are accustomed to the Metro UI on the desktop, they will probably be more likely to purchase a tablet/phone that has a similar interface as it will be a familiar interface.  I don't think it will work, but only time and the market will tell.

    The one thing I think MSFT forgets is that normal consumers actually rely on the advice and opinions of tech-savvy power users who live and work in the IT industry.  P1$$ us off and we won't recommend Windows, but some other alternative based on what the "friend" needs.  For some, that recommendation my come as a suggestion to use Ubuntu or Mint Linux; for some others OS X.

    I disagree with most of the other Windows 8 critics here in that MSFT will fix all of the issues and problem with Windows 9; I think it will come much sooner as MSFT will offer as optional updates and separate downloads the ability to enable a Windows 7-like Start Menu (with upgrades and changes) and DVD playback in Media Center.  Once the stock market reflects the results of the initial bad decisions, MSFT will "quietly" fix their mistakes

     

    Monday, June 04, 2012 1:44 AM
  • I use W8 every day for my work and personal computing. It's installed on all my PCs from desktop gaming rig, my x220t convertible PC and my BUILD tablet. I am a software engineer and I am not seeing how W8 is any less "productive" than any previous version of Windows. I have yet to find anything that doesn't work.

    Oh noes they changed my start menu to a start screen. Eh, yeah? So that doesn't stop my Visual Studio 2010, LINQPad, Office, OneNote, SQL Management Studio, [Insert Any Windows Application] from loading when I launch it from the start screen. Oh I'm coding away and now I need to work on an icon or image. No problem. Hit the win key and click "paint.net". What's so hard about that? Why is this so unproductive? Do you guys really hate the new start screen so much and it freaks you out so much that you lose all your productivity?

    Basically there is nothing in W8 that should stop you from being productive. You don't want to use Metro apps then don't. Continue to use the desktop as you always have. Pin your apps that you use the most to your task bar. You'll find that you will hardly ever use the start screen. When you do it will literal be for a second. Just long enough to have it popup and for you to click a little icon.


    Thanks,
    Bobby Cannon
    BobbyCannon.com

    Monday, June 04, 2012 1:03 PM
  • I have been running Win 8 since the consumer review since February the 29th. I have seen no downside in productivity at all. I found most of the new functions like their  use of ribons to enhance functions, like in the explorer, easy to use, and it took me less then 15 minutes to get familiar with the functions I needed. Since then I have been packaged applications, run extra virtual machines on it, abused and used is as I did when my client ran 7. I had more trubble starting using Office 2010... then again, I rarly use anything from the Office suite to start with.

    There are issues with it, which I bombarded any and all Windows 8 project members I found at MMS in april, mostly about how to manage the metro ui to behave better with grouping applications (and most of all, not display all and every little shortcut from an installation) in a very cluttered way. The Windows 8 for Enterprises session at MMS also showed that they indeed consider Win 8 more then just a home consumer product, aim for your entertainment center and devices with touch interface. I even got introduced to the quickest way to launch an app since Win 7. Win button + type 3 or 4 of the first letters in the app you want to start - enter. More often then not I don't even see the metro UI for tens of a scenond, and I am back, on my desktop, with the application starting. I do lots of work on machine, and has deliverd more then I thought it would.

    I found Win 8 to deliver most of what has been promised, my now 2 year old Lenovo T410s with ssd, 8gb mem, was a fast machine on 7, but I find it even snapier on 8. I work primerly with application packaging, Config Manager, OS Deployment with everything that can be related to that, I do not feel lacking in any way on 8. Sure there are things I still hope they fix or take into consideration for SP1. After all one of the first thing I did was to create a shortcut on the taskbar so I could get sort of "legacy" start menu, but I am useing it less and less, and after I found Win+X combo, I am a happy beaver.

    I have to make one thing clear though. I told our CIO where I work that 7 will be our main recomendation for the Windows platform for the coming year(s), but we will support deployment of Win 8 (since so far all apps but a few runs ok) for our staff/students. I have implemented so that a user can choose what OS they want, restart their computer, PXE boot - get Win 7 or 8 depending on what they want. ( I am starting up a blog about my MDT ZTI implementation ). Why? some of our users wants to have it the day it goes live from microsoft. Do they need it? propably not right now, but considering we let them order iPads so they can play Angry Birds, its the right move since we have a really great backend to support their choise. Considering how diverse our users are, some are old school and still want Windows 98, some are so bleeding edge they work with software engineers bringing out the latest in 3D/CadCam. My job is to support them, and I support Win 8. Something I lernt as a IT consultant for a local company a few years back, IT is about change. Adapt and you profit, Stagnate and you go under.


    Monday, June 04, 2012 3:11 PM
  • Real powerusers should love this OS. It brings choice and options. Like Hyper-V, a true type 1 hypervisor. Like a vastly improved powershell, like a new start screen that is so much more power user friendly then the old start menu, where the keyboard is suddenly king instead of the mouse.

    Meanwhile, it runs all of my apps, and it runs it faster then ever before. I have been running the CP since march at my work laptop and my main home desktop, and continue to use the RP on those two machines and an additional machine.

    The notion that this is a tablet OS, that only works with touch is being projected into the minds by people that never actually used the os, or are not willing to learn a few tricks, and quite frankly that begins to annoy me.

    Monday, June 04, 2012 8:39 PM
  • I used the OS for a month, so I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate that I'm some radical Windows 8 hater who hasn't used it. I gave it a chance. I tried to be optimistic. After a month I coudn't hide the fact that I was using a Windows 7 designed for the average tablet user. Could I "get away" with doing my work on Windows 8 if I 'had' to? Sure. But not without obstacles in the way thanks to this new tablet interface. Not without headaches and more clicks and being taken away from the desktop to a full screen glorified application launcher whenever I needed to launch something. Not without my OS being stripped down to support a device 1/50th of the power of my machine, leaving me with a flat ugly design and a lack of Windows Media Center and DVD playback.

    Beyond all this, the fact is that Microsoft wants Windows 8 to be just the beginning of a world where we all use touch screen apps and we move away from the "desktop" and Desktop PC's. We'll all only download from the Microsoft Store (go try and download CCleaner for Mac, and you'll get an idea of what the future of Windows brings). They want our files stored on their 'cloud.' They have made this clear. This isn't just about Windows 8 itself, its about Microsoft's new direction which is a direct insult to loyal Desktop users.

    The pro-Win8 argument is always "Well most people don't do that" or "Do it this way now instead" as if it justifies ridding Windows of features we know and use every day. How about no, thanks. If I'm gonna relearn anything and change my PC habits to suit a new OS, its gonna be on a NEW OS. I chose Windows for a reason.

    Monday, June 04, 2012 8:56 PM
  • If you'd just try to use Windows 8 the way it's meant to be used, you'd realize that you can't go back to Windows 7.  Just being able to pin as many websites as I want to the start screen is a life changer.   I cannot go back to windows 7 anymore, now that I have all of my projects pinned in groups on my start screen with instant access to them. No more digging through layers of website menus or favorites, just winkey + click my project and I'm there.   It's saved me hundreds of steps. Just try it, and stop bashing it til you do. 

    Monday, June 04, 2012 8:58 PM
  • Well, I fail to see how you and I could have such different experiences.

    Yes I can do the work that I could do on Windows 7, and yes I do them faster, and no I don't experience the tablet interface you speak off. My desktop looks almost exactly the same as it does in Windows 7, taskbar, desktop, control panel, taks manager (albeit superior over the win7 version). The only difference is the absence of the start menu, which is replaced by a start screen. That start screen supports the keyboard much much better then the start menu ever did. Which in turn leads to a faster way of starting applications, as I hit Winkey, and type the app I'm looking for, then hit enter. This can be done on the old startmenu, but with one additional click. (slower). Apart from being faster in general usage, it also provides me with relevant information (the live tiles), without even having to hit the application.

    And yes I also do use metro from time to time, especially the metro version of Remote Desktop is the preferred way of using RDP, as it allows for tabs, which really is a productivity improvement over the old mstsc client, and for me as a server admin of course is a vital part of my day to day job.

    Now whilst the metro interface and the WinRT api, indeed limits application installation to the MS store only, the Desktop and all the applications that run on it (which are the exact same appliations that currently run on Win7) remains unchanged. You can still install ALL applications that ran on Windows 7 just in the exact same way on Windows 8, so that argument is totally moot.

    What remains is an OS that offers choice, you can choose to use it as if it was Windows 7, with the same applications, the same freedom if you will, and the same look and feel, or you can choose to use both the desktop and metro and have an additional interface, that also would work well on a tablet device or with a touch enabled device. Or you could go metro only, if your usage warrents it.

    Monday, June 04, 2012 9:56 PM
  • I second your opinion ChuckFinley2. I am a long time Windows user since childhood and cannot stand the direction of Windows and Microsoft. Windows 95 was my first version, and ever since then I too have been a loyal Windows user. Windows 2000 was, and still is, the best operating system ever made in my opinion. No colourful nonsense, power and control to the end user, and all backed by a good philosophy and lean uniform GUI. It is clear that Microsoft was a vastly different company back then--a group that actually had their heads on straight. There is a reason why Windows rapidly became number one, and all of that is now forgotten for the sake of some new-age phantom goal--and how we all need to sit around and hold hands with our tablets. I use my computer for serious work, 3D game development and gaming--I do not even have a Facebook, and never will. Metro is not for me, Windows 8 is not for me, Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    If I could, I would still be using Windows 2000, but unfortunately things just do not work with it any more, and there is no 64-bit version. If Microsoft does not shape up, and I do not think they are going to, then I am definitely switching to Linux. I tried making posts on Linux forums about how they should entice software developers to make their software run on Linux, but I was instantly accused of ranting and banned on some of them. It makes me want to make my own OS, it really does.

    Monday, June 04, 2012 10:30 PM
  • I second your opinion ChuckFinley2. I am a long time Windows user since childhood and cannot stand the direction of Windows and Microsoft. Windows 95 was my first version, and ever since then I too have been a loyal Windows user. Windows 2000 was, and still is, the best operating system ever made in my opinion. No colourful nonsense, power and control to the end user, and all backed by a good philosophy and lean uniform GUI. It is clear that Microsoft was a vastly different company back then--a group that actually had their heads on straight. There is a reason why Windows rapidly became number one, and all of that is now forgotten for the sake of some new-age phantom goal--and how we all need to sit around and hold hands with our tablets. I use my computer for serious work, 3D game development and gaming--I do not even have a Facebook, and never will. Metro is not for me, Windows 8 is not for me, Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    If I could, I would still be using Windows 2000, but unfortunately things just do not work with it any more, and there is no 64-bit version. If Microsoft does not shape up, and I do not think they are going to, then I am definitely switching to Linux. I tried making posts on Linux forums about how they should entice software developers to make their software run on Linux, but I was instantly accused of ranting and banned on some of them. It makes me want to make my own OS, it really does.

    (test)

    Microsoft Shows Smartglass

    I'm not sure I needed to quote your whole post, but it was written so well, I wouldn't want to fool with it.

    Apparently this is the direction they're going, you can stick a touch sensitive device on a TV. Wait, people were doing that in the seventies, right? Oh, I get it, dad's watching an old war movie and you walk in from the bedroom to stick Simcity onto his 3000 console TV without actually touching it.

    Some wise person went on about waiting for win 8 and using win7 for now, and then they started ranting about "win 9" and I got lost. But it's decent advice.

    Then some guy remarked in a clever way that win 8 could be made to work like XP. That irked some and satisfied others. I maintain that I'll still have to call Microsoft on bended knee to use win 7 again, (after the win 8 froze my bios into an ususable state) and electronic Arts, and Corel. They won't believe me.

    "It did what?? It can't do that, you're doing it wrong", is something they're likely to say. 

    So I await win 8 with the inevitable hope of a man on death row, "I go to a better place", I'll keep repeating. Wrong headnedness is in the mind of the post-er, no one will change their minds, why try. Use some arcane "server 2010" or whatever it's called.

    Monday, June 04, 2012 11:13 PM
  • So I await win 8 with the inevitable hope of a man on death row, "I go to a better place", I'll keep repeating. Wrong headnedness is in the mind of the post-er, no one will change their minds, why try. Use some arcane "server 2010" or whatever it's called.

    I think that fatalism should not be allowed to take hold.  First of all, you just do not have to purchase Win8.  Nor do you have to have it in a new computer.  I am sure that the manufacturer would be able to substituted Win7 for it.

    Microsoft wii not listen right now to complaints.  It has decided on its strategy and it is carrying it out.  In fact, MS marketing would give prominence to reviews from non-Windows users.  They already know that Win8 is very unpopular in the Windows community.  So, they would have Mac persons review it!!! (No kidding).  In addition, they would literally buy good reviews.  Promise advertizing to sites and it is amazing how soon one can get great reviews.  Thus, none of the mainstream online review sites have given an overly negative review (mostly middling reviews); however, "negative" reviews by the same reviewers appear under editorials with titles as "what can be done to save Win8" or the "10 things Microsoft can do to save Windows 8" and so on....It is remarkable that these people did not find these problems in their official review, but suddenly, they discovered these negatives for an editorial.  And so on....the message would be muddled at the end.

    Thus, assuming a muddled message, the smart thing to do is not to buy Win8.  Since for years you would not miss anything vital that would not be running on Win7, there is no need for resignation here.  At the end, it is users who would decideAnd if the majority feels like you, Win8 will crash and burn.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:01 AM
  • Real powerusers should love this OS. It brings choice and options. Like Hyper-V, a true type 1 hypervisor. Like a vastly improved powershell, like a new start screen that is so much more power user friendly then the old start menu, where the keyboard is suddenly king instead of the mouse.

    Meanwhile, it runs all of my apps, and it runs it faster then ever before. I have been running the CP since march at my work laptop and my main home desktop, and continue to use the RP on those two machines and an additional machine.

    The notion that this is a tablet OS, that only works with touch is being projected into the minds by people that never actually used the os, or are not willing to learn a few tricks, and quite frankly that begins to annoy me.

    I have used this OS and I disagree with you.  This is not a power users OS, not by a long stretch.  In fact, it has been designed not to be a power users OS.  It is much less customizable than any previous versions of Windows. 

    But I fully understand that these are matters of opinion and that, provided one is ready to suffer the aweful Metro Start Screen, one can accomplish much of the same work.  But the Metro Start Screen is not just a program launcher.  It is, in fact, the front end of another OS.

    In fact, Win8 consists of two operating systems molded together (some have used the analogy of the Frankenstein monster, but I would not go there): It includes the typical Windows desktop OS (with the Win32 runtime) and the new Microsoft portable OS, WinRT (with the WinRT runtime).  The problem with Win8 is not so much with the OS itself and the compromises it forces on its users, but with the paradigm shift that Microsoft wants to enforceMicrosoft wants to switch all development effort to WinRT.  Thus, it repeatedly refers to Win32 as legacy.

    The pernicious element here is not Win8 itself.  It is the fact that Microsoft wants the desktop users to fund the evolution of an OS that works against their interests.  This is really the sum of everything.  Buy Win8 and you would be financing the evolution of a computer paradigm based on portable OSes, sparse screens, and "poor" computing experience.  Applications in these model would become "easier" but then also offer few advanced functions.  Of course, the MS excuse here is that very few users actually use the advanced functions.

    How does the future look to Microsoft?  How is your money going to be used if you buy Win8?  Well, it would fund the development of portable apps, a flatten and sparse UI, and the elimination of multitasking and multi-windowing because these capabilities cannot scale down to tablets.  At the end, Microsoft would like to sell hundreds of millions of computers doing simple things to consumers, and turn around and sell, at outrageously high prices, "professional" apps to businesses and professionals.  Win8 is the pivot on which this strategy relies on. 

    Thus, we stand at the cross-roads: Acceptance of Win8 now would mean very high prices down the road for robust, multi-windowing, rich applications and computing environments, as these would be now "reserved" for professionals and the enterprise.  This is what "Windows re-imagined" really means.   Your money to Microsoft would simply enable this vision.


    • Edited by ADRz Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:25 AM
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 AM
  • Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    Let me correct that for you, Windows 8 is not for anyone not open to change.

    Not only do I consider myself to be a computer user, I use a multitude of operating systems, and currently my preferred OS is indeed Windows 8. I have my reasons for doing so, and if that makes me a non computer user in your view, than so be it.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:25 AM
  • Real powerusers should love this OS. It brings choice and options. Like Hyper-V, a true type 1 hypervisor. Like a vastly improved powershell, like a new start screen that is so much more power user friendly then the old start menu, where the keyboard is suddenly king instead of the mouse.

    Meanwhile, it runs all of my apps, and it runs it faster then ever before. I have been running the CP since march at my work laptop and my main home desktop, and continue to use the RP on those two machines and an additional machine.

    The notion that this is a tablet OS, that only works with touch is being projected into the minds by people that never actually used the os, or are not willing to learn a few tricks, and quite frankly that begins to annoy me.

    I have used this OS and I disagree with you.  This is not a power users OS, not by a long stretch.  In fact, it has been designed not to be a power users OS.  It is much less customizable than any previous versions of Windows. 

    But I fully understand that these are matters of opinion and that, provided one is ready to suffer the aweful Metro Start Screen, one can accomplish much of the same work.  But the Metro Start Screen is not just a program launcher.  It is, in fact, the front end of another OS.

    In fact, Win8 consists of two operating systems molded together (some have used the analogy of the Frankenstein monster, but I would not go there): It includes the typical Windows desktop OS (with the Win32 runtime) and the new Microsoft portable OS, WinRT (with the WinRT runtime).  The problem with Win8 is not so much with the OS itself and the compromises it forces on its users, but with the paradigm shift that Microsoft wants to enforceMicrosoft wants to switch all development effort to WinRT.  Thus, it repeatedly refers to Win32 as legacy.

    The pernicious element here is not Win8 itself.  It is the fact that Microsoft wants the desktop users to fund the evolution of an OS that works against their interests.  This is really the sum of everything.  Buy Win8 and you would be financing the evolution of a computer paradigm based on portable OSes, sparse screens, and "poor" computing experience.  Applications in these model would become "easier" but then also offer few advanced functions.  Of course, the MS excuse here is that very few users actually use the advanced functions.

    How does the future look to Microsoft?  How is your money going to be used if you buy Win8?  Well, it would fund the development of portable apps, a flatten and sparse UI, and the elimination of multitasking and multi-windowing because these capabilities cannot scale down to tablets.  At the end, Microsoft would like to sell hundreds of millions of computers doing simple things to consumers, and turn around and sell, at outrageously high prices, "professional" apps to businesses and professionals.  Win8 is the pivot on which this strategy relies on. 

    Thus, we stand at the cross-roads: Acceptance of Win8 now would mean very high prices down the road for robust, multi-windowing, rich applications and computing environments, as these would be now "reserved" for professionals and the enterprise.  This is what "Windows re-imagined" really means.   Your money to Microsoft would simply enable this vision.


    Ridiculous sir, you just haven't tried to learn the OS.  Transitioning to the horse and buggy to the horseless carriage took time, however, once it was done, everyone was better for it. The same will happen here.

    All of the advanced functions are there, you just haven't learned how to use them.  Once you learn, you will slowing accept the fact that you were wrong. And that's ok. 

    I've been using Win 8 as my primary OS and now I find Windows 7 to be slow and interferes with my productivity. I'm sorry you can't see it this way.  The start screen interacts with the desktop just as well as  Metro, it's a portal to both.  I'm sorry you can't see it that way. 

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:56 AM
  • Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    Let me correct that for you, Windows 8 is not for anyone not open to change.

    Not only do I consider myself to be a computer user, I use a multitude of operating systems, and currently my preferred OS is indeed Windows 8. I have my reasons for doing so, and if that makes me a non computer user in your view, than so be it.

    Aye, but if change must occur, should it not be to serve a greater purpose or fix flaws? I fail to see how such a radical change serves anyone other than non computer users, and that is what I meant. It should be an option, not forced upon those of us who have been using Windows for years and are plenty fast enough with our proven methods. No insults were intended of course, but I will always stick by the idea that forcing change on anyone is never a good idea. Options first, and then let the end users decide what is best for themselves.
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:31 AM
  • >and if that makes me a non computer user in your view, than so be it.
     
    It doesn't make you a non-computer user.  I too like Windows 8 and
    Windows 2012 Server.  The start screen does what it was designed to do
    and we still have the desktop that we can configure as much as we like.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:11 AM
  • I will never buy/upgrade to Windows 8. While it may have a suitable market for tablets, it is an insult to a PC and workstation user! Windows 8 in its current state of developlment will be what Vista was to XP and even worse! Microsoft better be set for people who buy a new PC to downgrade to Window 7 like Windows XP Pro replaced Vista Business on a very large scale.

    It would be better for Microsoft (and the public) if it made a PC version of Windows 8 with strictly TRADITIONAL usability.



    • Edited by R- Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:24 AM
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:22 AM
  • Wes R,

    Wait, people were doing that in the seventies, right? Oh, I get it, dad's watching an old war movie and you walk in from the bedroom to stick Simcity onto his 3000 console TV without actually touching it.

    Wes R, you crack me up man.  Eccentric genius or b.s. crazy, it's anyone's guess.

    I see ADRz is still on his ABM crusade.  You understand that most large and medium businesses have software assurance so whether they use Windows 8 or exercise their downgrade rights, MS still gets their money.  Those that don't have SA only get a new OS with a new computer in the vast majority of cases.  Businesses in general aren't early adopters anyway.

    Home users are pretty much the same in that they mostly get a new OS with new hardware.  But you keep plugging away and maybe you can convince 2 or 3 people not to upgrade, that will really make a dent in sales.  Should the Microsoft Police miss anyone's house maybe they can stay with Windows 7 and not be forced against their will to use Windows 8.  Consumer demand will keep the Desktop alive for a very long time no matter what the evil empire wants and developers will see it as worthwhile to keep producing Desktop apps.

    That's right, they can only get good reviews for Windows 8 if they pay for them.  Brilliant use of bold, by the way.  When they sell 1000x the number of Asus Transformer(and the likes) with Windows 8 compared to Android don't run and hide under that bridge.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:27 AM
  • Windows 8 offers nothing that I'm interested in buying into. It's a concept OS at best trying to merge the worlds of a desktop PC with a tablet PC... but even in that aspect... it does a poor job.

    Yes, I agree that a Traditional Windows 8 is needed for the "rest of us". This Windows 8 is crap, and no matter how much sugar and chocolate icing you can coat it with to make it seems better.... crap is still crap.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:43 AM
  • Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    Let me correct that for you, Windows 8 is not for anyone not open to change.

    Not only do I consider myself to be a computer user, I use a multitude of operating systems, and currently my preferred OS is indeed Windows 8. I have my reasons for doing so, and if that makes me a non computer user in your view, than so be it.

    So its in your estimation that nobody has a valid complaint about Windows 8. Every single negative opinion (and there is a plethora of them) is simply people not open to change? Really? I am actually very open to change. Change that doesn't impact my productivity or my ability to do what I want and use my OS the way I want to. Change that doesn't mean I'm supposed to read PDF's in full screen, or websites in full screen, or apps in full screen, when in my daily life I often have everything open at once in separate viewable windows. Change that doesn't lead to a world where Microsoft owns all of my files and gets to decide which programs I can use on my PC. Change that doesn't mean my OS will now be optimized for systems 10 years behind in system capabilities and with screens 1/4 the size of mine. Change that doesn't mean I have to pay for the new PC equivalant of XBox DLC for unchanged Windows features that were FREE in "legacy" versions.

    In fact, I'm so open to change, that I'll be 'changing' to a new OS unless Microsoft backtracks on this awful new direction. THAT is what being "open to change" really means, and Microsoft better believe it.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:11 AM
  • So its in your estimation that nobody has a valid complaint about Windows 8. ... Change that doesn't mean I'm supposed to read PDF's in full screen, or websites in full screen, or apps in full screen, when in my daily life I often have everything open at once in separate viewable windows.

    Surely there are valid complaints.  I don't think Microsoft can do ANYTHING that won't impact a large number of people because their user base is so huge....even though that large number of people may be a very small percentage overall.

    Install the Desktop PDF reader of your choice and set it as the default app to open PDFs.  Same for music, photos, anything.  You can make it so you see the Metro start screen very infrequently.  If your argument is that you shouldn't have to change anything, then stick with Windows 7....or go to OS X, Linux, FreeBSD...there are a lot of quality options.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:23 AM
  • Somehow I sense a love/hate relationship here...  People sure seem polarized to one extreme or the other.  That's interesting, no?

    Very few seem ambivalent, as I do...  To me Windows 8 does not seem really much worse or better than Windows 7.  Where it counts it's not much different.

    It may be prudent to separate the product that is becoming Windows 8 from Microsoft's motives (though of course they're related)...

    It's hard to excuse Microsoft's going in seemingly random or at best unexpected directions without good reason (or worse, with pure profit motives at the expense of user experience).  I have just heard that Microsoft may be removing the APIs that make it possible for programs like ClassicShell to replace the Start menu.  That's just wrong.  It's one thing to build a better mousetrap, it's quite another to build a mouse superhighway to your house, and make it impossible to buy anyone's mousetraps but theirs.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:34 AM
  • Ridiculous sir, you just haven't tried to learn the OS.  Transitioning to the horse and buggy to the horseless carriage took time, however, once it was done, everyone was better for it. The same will happen here.

    All of the advanced functions are there, you just haven't learned how to use them.  Once you learn, you will slowing accept the fact that you were wrong. And that's ok. 

    I've been using Win 8 as my primary OS and now I find Windows 7 to be slow and interferes with my productivity. I'm sorry you can't see it this way.  The start screen interacts with the desktop just as well as  Metro, it's a portal to both.  I'm sorry you can't see it that way. 

    No, I cannot.  But it is really funny that those who champion Win8 regard it as a great advance in the state of computing that mindless Luddites cannot comprehend or cannot figure out.  Usual ploy but totally wrong and insulting to boot. 

    In any case, I think that I explained my rationale and this has nothing really to do with whatever usability one can draw out of Win8.  I suggest that you read my post and argue on what I have said, not on what you thought I said (or what I should have said). I do not think that is proper to construct your own argument and answer your own question and then assume that you are answering my point.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:51 AM
  • I see ADRz is still on his ABM crusade.  You understand that most large and medium businesses have software assurance so whether they use Windows 8 or exercise their downgrade rights, MS still gets their money.  Those that don't have SA only get a new OS with a new computer in the vast majority of cases.  Businesses in general aren't early adopters anyway.

    Home users are pretty much the same in that they mostly get a new OS with new hardware.  But you keep plugging away and maybe you can convince 2 or 3 people not to upgrade, that will really make a dent in sales.  Should the Microsoft Police miss anyone's house maybe they can stay with Windows 7 and not be forced against their will to use Windows 8.  Consumer demand will keep the Desktop alive for a very long time no matter what the evil empire wants and developers will see it as worthwhile to keep producing Desktop apps.

    That's right, they can only get good reviews for Windows 8 if they pay for them.  Brilliant use of bold, by the way.  When they sell 1000x the number of Asus Transformer(and the likes) with Windows 8 compared to Android don't run and hide under that bridge.

    An ABM crusade?  Hardly.  In fact, I owe most of Microsoft products.  And I fully understand if one downgrades to Win7, MS still collects the fee for the OS license.  I also understand that the current Microsoft policies are not a result of strength but of weakness and desperation.  Win8 is the "Trojan Horse" which would unlock the gates of the portable OS heaven for Microsoft.  Or at least, this is the thinking in the company.  Play along if you must.

    My belief is that this policy would likely fail but it would burden us users for years.  Development effort that could have been spent in advancing the state of the art is expended in the mindless pursuit of portable computing without bringing anything new or innovative, but just a company-centric environment.  Desktop users are inconvenienced in order for Microsoft to generate its ecosystem.

    Although I do not believe that Microsoft would be successful, the company has certainly the OEM system of alliances behind it and that provides it with real muscle in the marketplace.  So, the issue is by no means settled. 

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:09 AM
  • Please explain how Windows 8 is less customizable ? Last time I looked it featured even more group policy settings than any version before it. Powershell has literally thousands of new cmdlets. All things that indeed make it more customizable. I really think WINRT will eventually be on par with the Win32 api, but it will take a few Windows versions to get there. Meanwhile the win32 api and the desktop are still there. And I highly doubt we will see the end of the desktop within a few Windows versions, if ever.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:32 AM
  • Of course one can have a valid complaint, except the notion that this OS is for tablets type devices only, which is a false notion.

    You act as if Microsoft is forcing you to use Metro, to use the PDF viewer, Metro IE10, when in fact they do offer choice. Did you notice that notifcation in the upper right corner the minute you open a PFD when it appears you have multiple programs that can open them ? That is choice, you can choose to open these PDF files in Adobe Acrobat Reader instead of the Metro PDF reader, avoiding the full screen experience. IE10 on the desktop serves the exact same purpose. If you wish, you can spend your whole working day on the desktop, never going to that dark Metro world. For people that do like Metro IE10 (such as myself), they offer that choice as well.

    Of course you are free to move to a different operating system, like OSX which is going through some exact same changes, where come ML, the default setting is to not allow any applications outside of the Apple app store (which of course can be changed), where more and more IOS applications are going to be merged into the OS. Or you can go to Ubuntu and it's Unity interface, which also represents a big change in the UI.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:41 AM
  • The cynicism behind the thought that the ONLY reason they are putting Metro on the Desktop is to launch their mobile OS is ignorant.  "It's just weakness and desperation", "mindless pursuit of portable computing", more FUD from ADRz.   Maybe they are trying to provide a cohesive ecosystem with device flexibility that doesn't exist today.

    For the first time they are releasing server management tools, server OS, developer tools, Office, phone/tablet/desktop OS, improved web-based offerings and Xbox updates all in a compressed time frame.  Instead of having all these business units with unrelated goals everything is being designed to work well together providing many benefits to users.

    At the same time Windows 8 can be a great Desktop OS with just a little configuration time.  I think it's nothing more than poor choice of default settings for Desktop ONLY users and having to use some third party apps to fill in the gaps.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 6:45 AM
  • Noel, I second you on your statement. My family uses Windows 8 and have replaced Windows 7 in our home. My 8 children and Wife do not like Metro, even on our HP 23" touchscreen. Though several apps do appease them. The duality in usage is a detraction to them. The technology sprinkled to this edition makes this more than worthy, in my personal usage of the OS. And while I seldom use Metro, I can see the benefit depending on the scenario.

    Like you, however, I question the motive behind the change. On the surface, it seems as though Microsoft is chasing a mythical tablet market that has yet to be proven to be something reachable outside of the iPad's domain. For me though, I think the motive is deeper than this, for better or worse. Since the onset of the Windows Phone, Microsoft grows closer to the "walled garden" of Apples successful iPhone/iPad. The lucrative "App Store" model, where items can only be purchased through each companies store, of which a cut is made on each purchase.

    Looking at Metro, and it's requirements that only Metro apps be sold through the Microsoft store and nothing is side loaded (outside of a corporate domain), it becomes clear their desire to create this ecosystem. Apple enjoys healthy revenue from it's store, while Google reaps the benefits of free "add-supported" apps which employ Google's ad machines. It's simple to see why Microsoft would want to tread down this route, using both Apple and Google's examples as blueprints. It is this growing future that I find worry in. Phasing out the desktop, or at least making it the lesser of focus over time and putting utmost focus in the nary single task like environment of Metro, Microsoft wins with the revenue streams it dreams of, while desktop centric tasks may suffer. The future is most definitively mobile, and this change is very apparent already. Though the desktop or "workstation" will always have a presence due the to vary nature of the pillars it caters to (development, support and enthusiast gaming).

    Metro has it's attractions, as well as crevices. The future, however, is muddy with worry.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 8:15 PM
  • Windows 8 is not for anyone who calls themselves a computer user.

    Let me correct that for you, Windows 8 is not for anyone not open to change.

    Not only do I consider myself to be a computer user, I use a multitude of operating systems, and currently my preferred OS is indeed Windows 8. I have my reasons for doing so, and if that makes me a non computer user in your view, than so be it.

    Wow. So people that have a legitimate complaint are just plain opposed to change? Get outta this forum. I'm an IT professional and I dread win8. I personally don't mind it, but for work and the general user its going to be a change in the wrong direction for Microsoft.
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:08 PM
  • Win 8 is going to cause MS a lot of problems, they have geared up win 8 to attract the Apple crowd and there is a reason why the majority of people prefer Windows to Apple. Microsoft have been looking at Apples closed ecosystem and drooling, all that control over their users and being able to milk them with micro payments.

    You see software development for the PC has always been open, you want to write a program for the PC, go right ahead and publish it, then sit back and reap your rewards, it has been the bedrock of development. However they look at apple and its app store and they want a piece of the pie, they want their 30 - 40% cut of every app being sold.

    But it is going to bite them on the ass, the largest purchaser of new PC's is the enterprise market, and no large company is going to want the headache having to train all of its staff to be able to use the metro desktop effectively, I have been using Windows since 3.1 (I actually go back to the days of DOS and earlier) and I find it a pain in the but to search around for things, even turning off the PC is a pain now.I think what upsets people most though is MS trying to prevent people even trying to get the start menu back, they should of given people the option. That just stinks of arrogance. And some of the decisions they have made are baffling, like not being able to close an app? How stupid is that, I will decide if I want my app closed or running in the background, thank you, I am grown up enough to make my own decisions.

    I work in the IT department of a large NHS PCT here in the UK, with over 30,000 users. We have already told our main supplier (HP) that we will not accept any PC running Windows 8, we image all of our win PC's anyway, but we made that point to HP so it went back to Microsoft, god just the thought of having to train all of our staff to use win 8 would depress me, not to mention the overload on our support desk with the constant barrage of calls we would get. That adds a significant added cost to the IT budget and in these hard up times we re not going to waste money for training we should not need to do.

    Win 8 will be a massive failure, not because some of the new features are not nice, just that they need to be controllable for enterprise users, the metro page (And I am one of those that thinks it is awful) needs to be selectable, not enforced. No way were going to buy all of our 30,000 users touch screens, or go through the expense of getting health and safty assessments for everyone to ensure they are using said screens safely and without risk to repetitive strain.

    Microsoft forcing people down this path is going to be the biggest boost for Linux ever.

    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:01 PM
  • My biggest complaint is the way Microsoft handled it.  I am all for change and evolving the UI, but they should at least give the end-user a choice.  If you want to ship Windows as it is with the Metro UI as the default have at it, but give a switch to be able to use it in "classic" mode.  This would give people the ability to ease into it (Sort of how some people use to set the start menu in classic mode to make it look more like Win 9X)

    Myself, like others, usually don't accept change right away.  When Vista first came out the first thing I did was disable UAC.  Now I find myself not minding it on as I've gotten used to the concept and its enabled on in all of my machines now.

    I personally wouldn't turn off the new Metro UI as I don't find it that much of a hindrance, but for the sake of the people who are not ready to take the leap is a check box  buried somewhere (or even a registry key) where most users wouldn't find it too much to ask for to help people adjust at their own pace? Windows has always been about choice.


    • Edited by Microbolt Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:56 PM typo
    Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:54 PM
  • I have been running Win 8 since the consumer review since February the 29th. I have seen no downside in productivity at all. I found most of the new functions like their  use of ribons to enhance functions, like in the explorer, easy to use, and it took me less then 15 minutes to get familiar with the functions I needed. Since then I have been packaged applications, run extra virtual machines on it, abused and used is as I did when my client ran 7. I had more trubble starting using Office 2010... then again, I rarly use anything from the Office suite to start with.

    There are issues with it, which I bombarded any and all Windows 8 project members I found at MMS in april, mostly about how to manage the metro ui to behave better with grouping applications (and most of all, not display all and every little shortcut from an installation) in a very cluttered way. The Windows 8 for Enterprises session at MMS also showed that they indeed consider Win 8 more then just a home consumer product, aim for your entertainment center and devices with touch interface. I even got introduced to the quickest way to launch an app since Win 7. Win button + type 3 or 4 of the first letters in the app you want to start - enter. More often then not I don't even see the metro UI for tens of a scenond, and I am back, on my desktop, with the application starting. I do lots of work on machine, and has deliverd more then I thought it would.

    I found Win 8 to deliver most of what has been promised, my now 2 year old Lenovo T410s with ssd, 8gb mem, was a fast machine on 7, but I find it even snapier on 8. I work primerly with application packaging, Config Manager, OS Deployment with everything that can be related to that, I do not feel lacking in any way on 8. Sure there are things I still hope they fix or take into consideration for SP1. After all one of the first thing I did was to create a shortcut on the taskbar so I could get sort of "legacy" start menu, but I am useing it less and less, and after I found Win+X combo, I am a happy beaver.

    I have to make one thing clear though. I told our CIO where I work that 7 will be our main recomendation for the Windows platform for the coming year(s), but we will support deployment of Win 8 (since so far all apps but a few runs ok) for our staff/students. I have implemented so that a user can choose what OS they want, restart their computer, PXE boot - get Win 7 or 8 depending on what they want. ( I am starting up a blog about my MDT ZTI implementation ). Why? some of our users wants to have it the day it goes live from microsoft. Do they need it? propably not right now, but considering we let them order iPads so they can play Angry Birds, its the right move since we have a really great backend to support their choise. Considering how diverse our users are, some are old school and still want Windows 98, some are so bleeding edge they work with software engineers bringing out the latest in 3D/CadCam. My job is to support them, and I support Win 8. Something I lernt as a IT consultant for a local company a few years back, IT is about change. Adapt and you profit, Stagnate and you go under.


    Wish I could vote your post +10 instead of +1. That last bit is SO true.

    The rest is right on the money as well. Windows 8 isn't THAT much different from Windows 7 - except for the start menu. Big deal.. They changed it and added a new feature (metro UI). I don't see anything that saps productivity. If I need a shortcut - I'll drop one on the desktop or on the task bar and I'm DONE.

    Wednesday, June 06, 2012 4:38 AM
  • I used the OS for a month, so I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate that I'm some radical Windows 8 hater who hasn't used it. I gave it a chance. I tried to be optimistic. After a month I coudn't hide the fact that I was using a Windows 7 designed for the average tablet user. Could I "get away" with doing my work on Windows 8 if I 'had' to? Sure. But not without obstacles in the way thanks to this new tablet interface. Not without headaches and more clicks and being taken away from the desktop to a full screen glorified application launcher whenever I needed to launch something. Not without my OS being stripped down to support a device 1/50th of the power of my machine, leaving me with a flat ugly design and a lack of Windows Media Center and DVD playback.

    Beyond all this, the fact is that Microsoft wants Windows 8 to be just the beginning of a world where we all use touch screen apps and we move away from the "desktop" and Desktop PC's. We'll all only download from the Microsoft Store (go try and download CCleaner for Mac, and you'll get an idea of what the future of Windows brings). They want our files stored on their 'cloud.' They have made this clear. This isn't just about Windows 8 itself, its about Microsoft's new direction which is a direct insult to loyal Desktop users.

    The pro-Win8 argument is always "Well most people don't do that" or "Do it this way now instead" as if it justifies ridding Windows of features we know and use every day. How about no, thanks. If I'm gonna relearn anything and change my PC habits to suit a new OS, its gonna be on a NEW OS. I chose Windows for a reason.

    You know... I read the same old thing pretty much every few years - whenever Microsoft releases a new version of Windows. "his sucks, that sucks, the other sucks big wind. I'll NEVER get anything done! The sky is falling! Microsoft will be out of business 10 seconds after they release this atrocity!" Blah blah blah..

    Funny thing - you mention you might be able to get your work done if you "had to".. And that there are "obstacles" in your way that prevent you from getting things done. And yet, you FAIL to mention any of these roadblocks to your productivity.

    The simple fact is, while a lot of us are still going to be sitting down in front of a desktop system for quite some time, a LOT of the world is going MOBILE. That means tablets, phones, and gizmos not yet dreamed of. So why not have ONE convenient OS with a common interface that you learn ONCE and can use regardless of the device.

    Oh.. And downloading CCleaner for MAC is bloody simple. Go to the CCleaner home page ( http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner ) and click the link for the Mac OS version. Feel free to check out the link I shared. The link is there. You want Metro UI apps - then yes, you need to visit the Microsoft Store. Big deal - the apps you find there are likely to be clean and virus/malware free and SECURE. For many of my home user clients - that would be a major blessing. Kinda sucks for me though - given that would likely remove the likelihood of them downloading something that gets them in trouble. But then again, the built in AV feature of Windows 8 will likely do a LOT of that already.

    As far as storage goes - this IS still a free world and by golly - If you want to store your files on YOUR hard drive (or local server), you're still free to do so. Sure they would like it if you posted your files on their servers - they can then charge you rent for storage space.

    The bottom line - I call FUD on your post. The sky is NOT falling. The earth is not cracking open, ready to swallow us up. Sheesh...

    Wednesday, June 06, 2012 5:01 AM
  • I used the OS for a month, so I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate that I'm some radical Windows 8 hater who hasn't used it. I gave it a chance. I tried to be optimistic. After a month I coudn't hide the fact that I was using a Windows 7 designed for the average tablet user. Could I "get away" with doing my work on Windows 8 if I 'had' to? Sure. But not without obstacles in the way thanks to this new tablet interface. Not without headaches and more clicks and being taken away from the desktop to a full screen glorified application launcher whenever I needed to launch something. Not without my OS being stripped down to support a device 1/50th of the power of my machine, leaving me with a flat ugly design and a lack of Windows Media Center and DVD playback.

    Beyond all this, the fact is that Microsoft wants Windows 8 to be just the beginning of a world where we all use touch screen apps and we move away from the "desktop" and Desktop PC's. We'll all only download from the Microsoft Store (go try and download CCleaner for Mac, and you'll get an idea of what the future of Windows brings). They want our files stored on their 'cloud.' They have made this clear. This isn't just about Windows 8 itself, its about Microsoft's new direction which is a direct insult to loyal Desktop users.

    The pro-Win8 argument is always "Well most people don't do that" or "Do it this way now instead" as if it justifies ridding Windows of features we know and use every day. How about no, thanks. If I'm gonna relearn anything and change my PC habits to suit a new OS, its gonna be on a NEW OS. I chose Windows for a reason.

    You know... I read the same old thing pretty much every few years - whenever Microsoft releases a new version of Windows. "his sucks, that sucks, the other sucks big wind. I'll NEVER get anything done! The sky is falling! Microsoft will be out of business 10 seconds after they release this atrocity!" Blah blah blah..

    Funny thing - you mention you might be able to get your work done if you "had to".. And that there are "obstacles" in your way that prevent you from getting things done. And yet, you FAIL to mention any of these roadblocks to your productivity.

    The simple fact is, while a lot of us are still going to be sitting down in front of a desktop system for quite some time, a LOT of the world is going MOBILE. That means tablets, phones, and gizmos not yet dreamed of. So why not have ONE convenient OS with a common interface that you learn ONCE and can use regardless of the device.

    Oh.. And downloading CCleaner for MAC is bloody simple. Go to the CCleaner home page ( http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner ) and click the link for the Mac OS version. Feel free to check out the link I shared. The link is there. You want Metro UI apps - then yes, you need to visit the Microsoft Store. Big deal - the apps you find there are likely to be clean and virus/malware free and SECURE. For many of my home user clients - that would be a major blessing. Kinda sucks for me though - given that would likely remove the likelihood of them downloading something that gets them in trouble. But then again, the built in AV feature of Windows 8 will likely do a LOT of that already.

    As far as storage goes - this IS still a free world and by golly - If you want to store your files on YOUR hard drive (or local server), you're still free to do so. Sure they would like it if you posted your files on their servers - they can then charge you rent for storage space.

    The bottom line - I call FUD on your post. The sky is NOT falling. The earth is not cracking open, ready to swallow us up. Sheesh...

    Ironic that you're telling me you've heard the same thing every few years and then follow it up with typical pro-Windows 8 talking points that simply deny there is a single valid complaint to be had about Windows 8 and that anyone who doesn't bow to it is a dinosaur who never wanted to move past Windows 95.

    You assert that since I can probably accomplish what I need through frustration and more time than necessary makes my view invalid? You can't be serious. Short of maybe HD video editing, I can probably do the same with Windows Me, a bloated SP1 version of Vista on an old Intel Celeron. Sure it would take me hours longer and make life Hell, but according to your logic, that's perfectly acceptable. As for my reasons? You're flat out lying when you say I haven't listed some, but ok, here's the biggest: Taking me out of my PC experience completely where I have multiple Windows open that I need viewable at all times to do my work, just to launch a program which may launch fullscreen leaving all my work unviewable. The fact that this is how Windows views the FUTURE of how I do my work in such an arrogant and ignorant way that you'd think it was a 12 year old 2006 Myspace addict designing an OS for me. As much as you and others want to close your eyes and wish otherwise, that alone impacts our productivity enough to make this OS unusable.

    I don't care if the world is going mobile. There's nothing stopping Microsoft from giving us options or another version of this same OS that makes it just as good for desktop use as Windows 7. Your argument there is moot though at least you admit Microsoft is making this OS for tablet and phone users, unlike some who defend Windows 8 who argue it is not true. Clearly, it is. I will not be forced to use an OS being optimized for systems 1/10th as powerful as mine and with smaller screens and made for simple tasks like checking mail, facebook, or putting spooky automated zombie blood on my friend's pictures. There may NEVER, I repeat, NEVER be a replacement for the Desktop experience. You see your mouse cursor? See that fine point at the end and how you can click on a single pixel, say, in Photoshop? Notice how your arm is rested on your desk as you move that cursor around? Notice how your head is resting in its normal place as you stare directly at your monitor? Notice how you have a fully functional REAL LIFE keyboard right at your finger tips where your arms can rest as you multitask and do actual work if need be? There is certainly nothing right now that even comes close to replacing that, and I wouldn't be surprised if there ever will be. Microsoft is going backwards from that; pushing full screen apps (DOS anyone), having us control our systems right at the screen as if I'm changing TV channels in 1957 (They even have the nerve to suggest we want to use our TV's as a PC, standing in front of it in our living room), and optimizing everything for systems that make my old EMachine look like a powerhouse gaming PC. No thanks.

    Re: CCleaner for Mac. You realize (on a Mac) that takes you to the Mac store where you need to register for an account in order to download it? You're ok with an internet where everything we download is filtered through Mac and Microsoft stores and tied to user accounts? Our only other option to not download? I don't, and I'll be voting with my wallet.


    Thursday, June 07, 2012 1:43 AM
  • You assert that since I can probably accomplish what I need through frustration and more time than necessary makes my view invalid? You can't be serious. Short of maybe HD video editing, I can probably do the same with Windows Me, a bloated SP1 version of Vista on an old Intel Celeron. Sure it would take me hours longer and make life Hell, but according to your logic, that's perfectly acceptable. As for my reasons? You're flat out lying when you say I haven't listed some, but ok, here's the biggest: Taking me out of my PC experience completely where I have multiple Windows open that I need viewable at all times to do my work, just to launch a program which may launch fullscreen leaving all my work unviewable. The fact that this is how Windows views the FUTURE of how I do my work in such an arrogant and ignorant way that you'd think it was a 12 year old 2006 Myspace addict designing an OS for me. As much as you and others want to close your eyes and wish otherwise, that alone impacts our productivity enough to make this OS unusable.

    I don't care if the world is going mobile. There's nothing stopping Microsoft from giving us options or another version of this same OS that makes it just as good for desktop use as Windows 7. Your argument there is moot though at least you admit Microsoft is making this OS for tablet and phone users, unlike some who defend Windows 8 who argue it is not true. Clearly, it is. I will not be forced to use an OS being optimized for systems 1/10th as powerful as mine and with smaller screens and made for simple tasks like checking mail, facebook, or putting spooky automated zombie blood on my friend's pictures. There may NEVER, I repeat, NEVER be a replacement for the Desktop experience. You see your mouse cursor? See that fine point at the end and how you can click on a single pixel, say, in Photoshop? Notice how your arm is rested on your desk as you move that cursor around? Notice how your head is resting in its normal place as you stare directly at your monitor? Notice how you have a fully functional REAL LIFE keyboard right at your finger tips where your arms can rest as you multitask and do actual work if need be? There is certainly nothing right now that even comes close to replacing that, and I wouldn't be surprised if there ever will be. Microsoft is going backwards from that; pushing full screen apps (DOS anyone), having us control our systems right at the screen as if I'm changing TV channels in 1957 (They even have the nerve to suggest we want to use our TV's as a PC, standing in front of it in our living room), and optimizing everything for systems that make my old EMachine look like a powerhouse gaming PC. No thanks.

    Re: CCleaner for Mac. You realize (on a Mac) that takes you to the Mac store where you need to register for an account in order to download it? You're ok with an internet where everything we download is filtered through Mac and Microsoft stores and tied to user accounts? Our only other option to not download? I don't, and I'll be voting with my wallet.

    I think that this was one of the best posts that I have read on the issue of Win8. It really presents very well the problems introduced by Win8 in the desktop/laptop environment.

    Not only launching a new program would necessitate going through the Start Screen, but a variety of programs and settings are "Metrofied" and thus only run full screen.  As one correctly stated, "Windows" is being transformed into "Window".  Reports indicate that for the final release of Win8, Microsoft is busy removing legacy code to make it impossible for utilities or other 3rd-party tools to restore the Start Button. 

    Thursday, June 07, 2012 5:24 AM
  • You assert that since I can probably accomplish what I need through frustration and more time than necessary makes my view invalid? You can't be serious. Short of maybe HD video editing, I can probably do the same with Windows Me, a bloated SP1 version of Vista on an old Intel Celeron. Sure it would take me hours longer and make life Hell, but according to your logic, that's perfectly acceptable. As for my reasons? You're flat out lying when you say I haven't listed some, but ok, here's the biggest: Taking me out of my PC experience completely where I have multiple Windows open that I need viewable at all times to do my work, just to launch a program which may launch fullscreen leaving all my work unviewable. The fact that this is how Windows views the FUTURE of how I do my work in such an arrogant and ignorant way that you'd think it was a 12 year old 2006 Myspace addict designing an OS for me. As much as you and others want to close your eyes and wish otherwise, that alone impacts our productivity enough to make this OS unusable.

    I don't care if the world is going mobile. There's nothing stopping Microsoft from giving us options or another version of this same OS that makes it just as good for desktop use as Windows 7. Your argument there is moot though at least you admit Microsoft is making this OS for tablet and phone users, unlike some who defend Windows 8 who argue it is not true. Clearly, it is. I will not be forced to use an OS being optimized for systems 1/10th as powerful as mine and with smaller screens and made for simple tasks like checking mail, facebook, or putting spooky automated zombie blood on my friend's pictures. There may NEVER, I repeat, NEVER be a replacement for the Desktop experience. You see your mouse cursor? See that fine point at the end and how you can click on a single pixel, say, in Photoshop? Notice how your arm is rested on your desk as you move that cursor around? Notice how your head is resting in its normal place as you stare directly at your monitor? Notice how you have a fully functional REAL LIFE keyboard right at your finger tips where your arms can rest as you multitask and do actual work if need be? There is certainly nothing right now that even comes close to replacing that, and I wouldn't be surprised if there ever will be. Microsoft is going backwards from that; pushing full screen apps (DOS anyone), having us control our systems right at the screen as if I'm changing TV channels in 1957 (They even have the nerve to suggest we want to use our TV's as a PC, standing in front of it in our living room), and optimizing everything for systems that make my old EMachine look like a powerhouse gaming PC. No thanks.

    Re: CCleaner for Mac. You realize (on a Mac) that takes you to the Mac store where you need to register for an account in order to download it? You're ok with an internet where everything we download is filtered through Mac and Microsoft stores and tied to user accounts? Our only other option to not download? I don't, and I'll be voting with my wallet.

    That was very well thought out and written, Chuck.  Thank you.

    Many (most?) of us initially had these thoughts, and many have been swayed toward being more moderate by those who called foul and for some reason don't feel that real work involves the things you describe and who are adamantly in favor of the "new metropolitan methods" in exclusion of the old.  Being told in not so many words that one is a "dinosaur", when one actually knows what's involved with getting real work done based on REAL experience has indeed been an insulting and irritating experience.  It continues.  Maybe "metro" was exactly the right choice by Microsoft, because though the city slickers think they know "where it's at", in the end it's the country folk who have sense where it counts.

    All that said...

    It IS actually possible, with about a half day's work, to move the new, fashionable metropolitan BS to the background and get back to where Windows 8 is a serious workhorse.  I can say this with confidence, because I've done it, and I've documented it.  It's ever more clear Microsoft doesn't WANT us to do that, and perhaps even by documenting how we do it we're closing off our future.  More importantly, there doesn't seem a good reason to do that.

    Even with what one can do today, there ARE still some pretty disturbing things that are still unresolved...

    • There are important features removed or degraded without acceptable substitutes.  Just a few that come to mind offhand are:  Previous Versions integrated with Windows Backup, F8 bootup recovery control, color pre-compensated font smoothing (in IE10), sub millisecond DCP queue response time, controllable and aesthetically pleasing window dressing on the desktop...  There's a HUGE list of removed features that xpclient has compiled.

    • There are simply no new "gee whiz" reasons compelling desktop users to want Windows 8.  Sure, it seems a bit faster and more efficient at some things, and the Real Geeks amongst us might appreciate that, but...  What's better, really?  I'm choosing to use Windows 8 with UAC disabled entirely, which removes the ability for it to run any of the new WinRT BS, and what's left is basically a Windows 7 system that's been pared down, in some ways apparently with prejudice.

    I think the most important disappointment to the conscientious amongst us here is this:  Every new version is supposed to get better than its predecessors.  Ask yourself this:  Would a newly manufactured Camaro exactly identical to the 1968 model be acceptable today (even ignoring that it wouldn't even be remotely legal to sell it)?  Remember that most 1960s models got 10 mpg, polluted like a Chinese factory, rusted out in 3 years, required constant maintenance, and were about as safe as riding a bicycle in traffic.

    Windows 8 was supposed to get better than Windows 7.  We're supposed to be able to hold manufacturers to higher standards than ever.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    Friday, June 08, 2012 2:00 PM
  • .

    It IS actually possible, with about a half day's work, to move the new, fashionable metropolitan BS to the background and get back to where Windows 8 is a serious workhorse.  I can say this with confidence, because I've done it, and I've documented it.  It's ever more clear Microsoft doesn't WANT us to do that, and perhaps even by documenting how we do it we're closing off our future.  More importantly, there doesn't seem a good reason to do that.

    Even with what one can do today, there ARE still some pretty disturbing things that are still unresolved...

    • There are important features removed or degraded without acceptable substitutes.  Just a few that come to mind offhand are:  Previous Versions integrated with Windows Backup, F8 bootup recovery control, color pre-compensated font smoothing (in IE10), sub millisecond DCP queue response time, controllable and aesthetically pleasing window dressing on the desktop...  There's a HUGE list of removed features that xpclient has compiled.

    • There are simply no new "gee whiz" reasons compelling desktop users to want Windows 8.  Sure, it seems a bit faster and more efficient at some things, and the Real Geeks amongst us might appreciate that, but...  What's better, really?  I'm choosing to use Windows 8 with UAC disabled entirely, which removes the ability for it to run any of the new WinRT BS, and what's left is basically a Windows 7 system that's been pared down, in some ways apparently with prejudice.

    I think the most important disappointment to the conscientious amongst us here is this:  Every new version is supposed to get better than its predecessors.  Ask yourself this:  Would a newly manufactured Camaro exactly identical to the 1968 model be acceptable today (even ignoring that it wouldn't even be remotely legal to sell it)?  Remember that most 1960s models got 10 mpg, polluted like a Chinese factory, rusted out in 3 years, required constant maintenance, and were about as safe as riding a bicycle in traffic.

    Windows 8 was supposed to get better than Windows 7.  We're supposed to be able to hold manufacturers to higher standards than ever.

    -Noel



    Noel,  you are right that by documenting ways of minimizing the role of the Start Screen, you are allowing Microsoft the capability to remove all the legacy code that enables these possibilities.  They are busy doing this anyway.

    I think that there is a general agreement overall, that this version of Windows is not appropriate for productivity work; not only reviewers and industry analysts, but also Microsoft expects that those in productivity work and the enterprise overall to avoid upgrading to this version.  Microsoft's attention is focused on tablets and consumer laptops (although I do not think that laptops are great for a touch interface). 

    Independent of the merits of Win8 in tablets, Microsoft would have great difficulty penetrating the consumer space with those.  If the average consumer wants a tablet, it seems that it is far more reasonable to buy an iPad than a Windows tablet.  I do not think that there would be that many takers either on the enterprise front, considering how many business solutions have been deployed for the iPad (unlikely to be matched by Microsoft any time soon). 

    In any case, the company is, of course, entitled to take the product where it thinks that the sales are.  Hopefully, progressively other systems are going to appear to cover the market segment that Microsoft is abandoning.  We shall see how things work out at the end.

    Friday, June 08, 2012 7:37 PM
  • Chuck, you and I are birds of a feather.  We need our OS to support real work.  Lots of it.

    Are you willing to try going through steps to turn Windows 8 back into a desktop-centric work center?  It's actually possible.  It takes some doing but Windows 8 can be turned into a helluva nice workstation OS.  I'm not sure it's better than Windows 7 in very many ways, but at least it's possible to stay current.

    EMail me and I'll send you a free copy of my Windows 8 eBook to review (I need feedback from folks like you).  Go through that and you may start to feel differently about Windows 8.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    i would like to give you some feedback also Can you email me the windows 8 ebook and i will most definetly send you back feedback,,but i cannot find your email addy on your profile page

    Robin

    Friday, June 08, 2012 10:55 PM
  • i cannot find your email addy on your profile page

    It's right at the bottom of my little paragraph on what I've done.  Or you can follow one of the links below and find a contact eMail address at the bottom of the page.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 12:15 AM
  • I do not use Website Access that much. I would like to single click to change apps, not search for the corner and then find the Start to return to find a second application that is waiting for a response. It looks like an iPad, iPod, iPhone screen full of app icons.  You have to scroll to find the app you wish to open.  You spend most of a computer cleaning event, aligning your App Icons in some kind of order.  Try having a Photo editor program open along with a Video authoring and Music editing applications.  Next put these Icons on a Start page with 100 other icons, say Web pages and business applications. Now move back and forth between the three as you try to author a movie, matching some stills and a sound track.  You may have 2 audio tracks to manage. Not something that is easily managed unless the Apps are grouped together on the Start page.  These applications can be used in other scenarios so you will to reorganize the icons again for this.   The time is doubled to minimize a program and restore another with Windows 8's approach to the Start page.  I would rather use Vista for this kind of work over Windows 8 and I hate Vista.   It is not a change thing that has me disliking Windows 8 but the missing setup pages for various applications.  Case in point is Mail.  It is a well known fact that having the opening of the mail application, open the first new mail message can open the computer to a Virus attack.  I can not get the View Pane turned off presently.  There is no access to Contacts from the mail App.  You have no menu selections add an address of message to the contacts. This is repeated through other apps supplied with this version.

    Saturday, June 09, 2012 3:24 AM
  • This is my 32" monitor :
    It just looks stupid

    It just looks silly...

    The whole problem is not that we could work around things...
    The problem is that in the future we will not be able to.

    The photo import function, for instance has been dumbed down. No more select folder, no more delete from source, the preview of photos doesn't even have the possibility to rotate pictures... This is what I'd call regression not evolution...(let alone revolution)...


    Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:01 PM
  • This is my 32" monitor :
    It just looks stupid

    It just looks silly...

    The whole problem is not that we could work around things...
    The problem is that in the future we will not be able to.

    The photo import function, for instance has been dumbed down. No more select folder, no more delete from source, the preview of photos doesn't even have the possibility to rotate pictures... This is what I'd call regression not evolution...(let alone revolution)...


    Arjan,

    I have  30 inch monitor, so I am very much in the same boat as you. 

    As discussed, the reason you longer have these choices in the Photo app is that it is an app designed to run in the WinRT tablet/smartphone environment and not in a desktop/laptop.  Windows 8 and the apps are not designed to be used in productivity situations, these are consumer based items.

    I could not agree more with you that Win8 represents regression for the desktop/laptop users.  Now, we will see if the consumers -who inhabit Microsoft's imagination- flock to this OS.  It all depends on what they would be expecting.  If they expect to see Windows, they would be disappointed.  If they just expect a typical portable OS, Win8/WinRT would provide them with the same capabilities (possibly lower) of iOS and Android.  Microsoft should be hard pressed to explain as to why Win8/WinRT and not iOS!!!  

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:33 PM
  • I am running the Windows 8 Release Preview solely on my laptop and desktop, and a small business owner of an IT and applications development firm, there is a wide range and massive amount that I need to do on my desktop every minute of every day. I have had no problem with the new Metro interface not letting me do what I need to, and in fact, I have been using Adobe CS6 software for a while on this machine, especially Photoshop, for new marketing campaigns that I am developing for the company, and I have actually found that my work has improved greatly, I am more organized, and everything runs maybe a tiny bit slower than it did when I was running Windows 7 on this machine, but otherwise I have been beyond satisfied with the Windows 8 Release Preview, and the only real problem that I have had resulted not from Windows it's self, but the drivers that AMD created for my graphics cards, and actually besides re-enabling Crossfire support, the one that MS provides in Windows 8 for my system worked great.

    If you mean that MS is controlling you through the Metro UI, that is why on the x86 and x64 platforms they are leaving desktop in there for the traditional feel, not to mention they also have it so that if you want, there is one reg key that needs to be changed to get it back to the Windows 7 styling and that is it (though I am sorry, I do not have a link to what that reg key is at the moment). The only version of the OS that is locked down that you can't do traditional navigation with is Runtime, which only tablet MFGs that purchase it directly from MS can get.

    Really, most of the time when someone does this kind of change, whether it be MS or Adobe or whoever, working tech support for many years, I have found that its more people are just not willing to adapt and learn the new system, what it could offer, and because of that they jump to conclusions about the system, and I think that instead of just dismissing it with a few hours of play, use it on your system for a week, force yourself to really get in depth with it and see what it can do, cause after using the Consumer Preview for 3 months and now on the Release Preview solely on all my systems, I could not be happier, and I find that I am more productive and all around more satisfied with the whole Windows system than I was with XP, Vista, or even 7.

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 8:10 PM
  • But then you are blind to what is happening :

    I CAN work as fast in Windows 8 as I do in 7. That isn't it. Metro start screen isn't the biggest problem. The problem is METRO and METRO APPS and how they behave. I'm trying to work with those to get a feel on how they behave but they are appalling. If this is the quality of the apps which will replace all the (Live) apps that Microsoft has had up to now, I'll just have to throw away all Microsoft software and go fully to 3rd party apps. 

    The old photo import and preview has been replaced with Photo viewer... No options at ALL.
    Live messenger will be replaced by messenger app. Terrible...
    Live mail will be replaced by mail app. You cannot even move mail from 1 live account to another by simple dragging !!

    Microsoft will force you to buy Outlook (160 euro over here) to get mail options. Live apps will die because they are competing with WinRT. Which Microsoft cannot allow for very long.

    Full screen apps S&*&*%^

    Ar

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:09 PM
  • Really, most of the time when someone does this kind of change, whether it be MS or Adobe or whoever, working tech support for many years, I have found that its more people are just not willing to adapt and learn the new system, what it could offer, and because of that they jump to conclusions about the system, and I think that instead of just dismissing it with a few hours of play, use it on your system for a week, force yourself to really get in depth with it and see what it can do, cause after using the Consumer Preview for 3 months and now on the Release Preview solely on all my systems, I could not be happier, and I find that I am more productive and all around more satisfied with the whole Windows system than I was with XP, Vista, or even 7.

    I have a simple question here for you: WHY?  Why should any of us adapt so that Microsoft can leverage its desktop dominance to get into portable systems?  I have used all versions of Windows from 1.0 (oh, yes!!) and I have had no trouble adapting but then I saw the adaptation as a way of increasing capabilities.  Not so right now.  In fact, I have to adapt to a lower set of capabilities.  You say that you are more organized but is this because of Win8 (what specific service) or is it because you re-arranged your working process when you installed a new OS?  Believe it or not, I am highly organized and highly productive. My Win7 64-bit system log in the desktop and the programs that I want to run are there in front of me.  A number of information updates (mostly news, and market data) is delivered not through the idiotic and childish live tiles but through the now discarded gadgets.  Music is also assessed easily by a gadget.  Aero (which is to be removed) allows for easy access to all elements of the desktop.  As far as portable apps go, I have no problem running Android apps in a window on my desktop (through Bluestacks) or even docking my cell phone and having access to its data and functions (through AirDroid).  In fact, none of these capabilities are open to you in Win8 through dedicated Windows funcitons (Bluestacks and Airdroid will likely run on Win8 desktop).  

    So, I am scratching my head as to why I need to adapt.  Can you clarify this one for me?  

    Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:03 PM
  • In terms of what you mentioned on the gadgets side, of being able to access music easily via a gadget, you had to click on the gadget to select the music you wanted to listen to, and then it played. In the Metro UI, you have to open the gadget, select Music, and then select what you want to listen to, and then at that point, with the Win Key + Tab, you can get back into the app and use it again, it pops on to the screen for a second when you are working with that app specifically, and then when you go back to work, its out of your way, not cluttering up the screen with a Gadget that is always present. Listing that out, maybe you have an extra key click or two, but essentially the same thing, and you get the added benefit that you don't have to always see it, not to mention that if you controlled music through a gadget, you had to do essentially the same thing to manage it in Windows 7 and Windows Vista (which is where the gadget feature was first introduced), minimize the window that you were working in, use the gadget, and then go back to the application.

    In terms of the stock tickers, now instead of having a gadget that showed each individual stock ticker in its own little gadget on the screen, now with the live tile, you can either have them all come through every few seconds along with other national stock tickers such as the NASDAQ by leaving them grouped in the original Financial app, or you can pin out the tickers to their own live tiles, essentially giving you the same thing that you had with the gadgets. Only thing that is different is that A) it's in the new Metro UI, and B) its contained within the start menu so that when you don't need to be looking at them (say when working on an Excel spread sheet for work), they are just a button click away where in the past you had to minimize the application that you were working on, which that too was a button click away.

    In terms of Aero giving you access to all the functions of the OS directly from that, you get that in Windows 8, just it now uses the Fluent UI, so you press Alt and then it presents you with your different options in the ribbon at the top of the window. They also did things like being able to get to the file path field in a window easier by clicking Ctrl + L to move the cursor into it, something that was not available in Windows 7 and before.

    As for also the portable apps issue running on a big screen, while that app is open, yes, it can hog the screen real estate, but that is not the original point of the Metro UI. The Metro UI is built to be A) touch friendly, and B) quick to see the information that you need at a moments notice (like who a new email is from or if you have new mail), and get out of it. Toast and side bar notification inform you otherwise of what is happening in the app, and thus, less screen clutter, and you get the information faster. Also, its in one quick key click to see this information, one key click to make it go away.

    As for need, need is probably not the best word to use, as no, you don't need to get used to it, you can got with different alternatives, such as using all the gadgets that you have in the past, and the systems that are out there are fine, but take the Windows Live Essentials programs for example of what MS is doing. Most of those applications (mail, messenger) were included in the OS to begin with, and because of user input, they were separated out, made their own products, made better, but ultimately forgotten by most people. MS, this time around, instead of removing the features completely, is making them basic apps in the OS, but then they will bring out more apps to add on to the system, and as Mail, Pictures, and other pieces are now their own self-contained apps, they are more agile in terms of what they can do because MS doesn't necessarily have to worry about the fact that with Windows 7, if they change something in the picture import system, and it hoses something else in explorer, the entire desktop system would be hosed because explorer is at the core of the OS. By having it as an app, should they say enhance it to bring back importing as it was in Windows 7, it breaks something, its only that app that is broken, not the other systems that are integrated with it. So, that is another great feature of the new Metro UI, not to mention the features such as rotating the picture are still available in desktop explorer, so really, the things that might suffer from this lack of features would be RT because it does not have the desktop back-end, but again because they are their own self contained applications, there is a greater shot that fixes to bring that feature in will come down a lot easier than modifying explorer was in Windows 7 and before.

    So really, you are right, you don't need to adapt to the new OS, but its not less in functionality, its just different, and in some ways it could be better, and I should say, for me, I think its better because I can contain layer informational areas now instead of just having the desktop and the running application to do that through. But, its personal preference as to how to do things, not a lack of features.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 2:31 AM
  • In terms of what you mentioned on the gadgets side, of being able to access music easily via a gadget, you had to click on the gadget to select the music you wanted to listen to, and then it played. In the Metro UI, you have to open the gadget, select Music, and then select what you want to listen to, and then at that point, with the Win Key + Tab, you can get back into the app and use it again, it pops on to the screen for a second when you are working with that app specifically, and then when you go back to work, its out of your way, not cluttering up the screen with a Gadget that is always present. Listing that out, maybe you have an extra key click or two, but essentially the same thing, and you get the added benefit that you don't have to always see it, not to mention that if you controlled music through a gadget, you had to do essentially the same thing to manage it in Windows 7 and Windows Vista (which is where the gadget feature was first introduced), minimize the window that you were working in, use the gadget, and then go back to the application.

    In terms of the stock tickers, now instead of having a gadget that showed each individual stock ticker ...........

    In terms of Aero giving you access to all the functions of the OS directly from that, you get that in Windows 8, just it now uses the Fluent UI, so you press Alt and then it presents you with your different options in the ribbon at the top of the window. They also did things like being able to get to the file path field in a window easier by clicking Ctrl + L to move the cursor into it, something that was not available in Windows 7 and before.

    As for also the portable apps issue running on a big screen, while that app is open, yes, it can hog the screen real estate, but that is not the original point of the Metro UI. The Metro UI is built to be A) touch friendly, and B) quick to see the information that you need at a moments notice ......

    As for need, need is probably not the best word to use, as no, you don't need to get used to it, you can got with different alternatives, such as using all the gadgets that you have in the past, and the systems that are out there are fine, but take the Windows Live Essentials programs for example of what MS is doing. ....

    So really, you are right, you don't need to adapt to the new OS, but its not less in functionality, its just different, and in some ways it could be better, and I should say, for me, I think its better because I can contain layer informational areas now instead of just having the desktop and the running application to do that through. But, its personal preference as to how to do things, not a lack of features.

    So many mistaken assumptions.....I even wonder if you have used Win7 before.  First of all, who told you that I need to minimize my working windows to control the gadgets???  Of course, not.  First, on a 24- to 30-inch screen, you hardly ever devote the full screen real estate to any working window.  And if I do,  I can easily click on the lower right bottom and all windows disappear and I  have full access to the desktop and desktop gadgets. A far superior experience

    Should I even mention that with Win7 you boot up directly in the desktop?  Why do I need to boot up to the Start Screen if I need to use the desktop?  So that Microsoft can train me as a Pavlovian dog?

    You are also totally wrong regarding the ticker gadgets.  I have a gadget that allows you to see updates of all the major exchanges (foreign ones too) and all the stocks that you want to see.  I have gadgets that connect you directly to Pandora, to BBC, and to other radio stations.  In fact, on a large screen the Win Vista/7 gadgets are far superior to any arrangement in Win8. Any!!

    I mentioned that in Win7, there are programs that allowed Android apps to run in a window.  You cannot do this with Win8 apps.  I can also have the full "desktop" of my Android phone in a window, and there is no Microsoft utility that allows you to do this...not to mention that you cannot do this under WinRT/Metro.

    Also, you are totally mistaken on the reason for the existence of WinRT/Metro.  It is not there for the reasons that you mentioned.  It is there because it is the real OS.  The desktop is simply a Win7 compatibility layer.  It is a good one, but the real OS is Metro/WinRT.  It has its own runtime (WinRT).  In fact, on ARM processors, this is all you are going to get because the Win7 compatibility layer would not run on these processors.  Microsoft will hardcode for these systems three of the Office 15 apps, but this is all.  So, you should not have any illusions as to what you are purchasing with Win8.  You are buying a portable OS that provides functions similar to that of iOS and Android (instead of the Android gadgets, it has live tiles,.....big difference!!!) and contains a Win7 compatibility layer.  It is a system designed for small screens with limited resolutions (according to Microsoft's own  blog).  It does not take advantage of modern capabilities, it is really designed for systems with few resources (tablets).  Thus, it will run well on poor hardware. 

    Does Win8 advance the state of computing????  Hardly.  I am surprised that Microsoft had the guile to sell essentially a warmed-up, poor man's Android (hardly any apps vs. half a million) with a Win7 compatibility layer and convince people that it is really the second coming. 

    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:31 AM
  • As for need, need is probably not the best word to use, as no, you don't need to get used to it, you can got with different alternatives, such as using all the gadgets that you have in the past, and the systems that are out there are fine, but take the Windows Live Essentials programs for example of what MS is doing. Most of those applications (mail, messenger) were included in the OS to begin with, and because of user input, they were separated out, made their own products, made better, but ultimately forgotten by most people. MS, this time around, instead of removing the features completely, is making them basic apps in the OS, but then they will bring out more apps to add on to the system, and as Mail, Pictures, and other pieces are now their own self-contained apps, they are more agile in terms of what they can do because MS doesn't necessarily have to worry about the fact that with Windows 7, if they change something in the picture import system, and it hoses something else in explorer, the entire desktop system would be hosed because explorer is at the core of the OS. By having it as an app, should they say enhance it to bring back importing as it was in Windows 7, it breaks something, its only that app that is broken, not the other systems that are integrated with it. So, that is another great feature of the new Metro UI, not to mention the features such as rotating the picture are still available in desktop explorer, so really, the things that might suffer from this lack of features would be RT because it does not have the desktop back-end, but again because they are their own self contained applications, there is a greater shot that fixes to bring that feature in will come down a lot easier than modifying explorer was in Windows 7 and before.

    So really, you are right, you don't need to adapt to the new OS, but its not less in functionality, its just different, and in some ways it could be better, and I should say, for me, I think its better because I can contain layer informational areas now instead of just having the desktop and the running application to do that through. But, its personal preference as to how to do things, not a lack of features.

    not a lack of features.

    I'll just highlight on that...  Here is the Win7 import function :

    And windows 8 :

    No tagging.. No filenames.. No multiple folders based on dates...   But you get (Evil) Facebook and Flickr... As if I wish every picture of mine to be online.


    but ultimately forgotten by most people  <--  Says WHO ?

    I will not even show you the differences between Live Mail and new Mail app...!

    Monday, June 11, 2012 7:39 AM
  • So, to clarify, this is an entire posting dedicated to how Windows 8 cannot be used for real work, and so I am thinking that we are not talking solely about RT, which will only be on tablets that are to compete with the regular tablets, and not slates or PCs that will be used for work (so x86 or x64 based tablets).

    First, to address Live Mail vs. Mail app, the thing is that when talking about the OS it's self, there should not even be a discussion about the Windows Live Mail app as it is not even part of Windows anymore and hasn't been for a while. Quoting from a great article by Paul Thurott entitled Microsoft Is Killing the Windows Live Brand "the applications that Microsoft pulled out of Windows due to antitrust issues—they became known as Windows Live Essentials" and thus they are a completely separate piece that is added in after the fact either by users choosing to use the software, OEMs trying to give users even more incentive to buy their hardware, or by professionals that add it to a Windows image for a company and then deploy the software to the company as an application that they use. What is app short for? Application, thus the Mail app is positioned to be a simple app that adds functionality to the system right out of the box and not as part of the OS, and in which case, Windows 7 actually lacks that feature because quoting from the Microsoft product page for Windows 7 "Windows Mail and Outlook Express aren't included in Windows 7. To use your email, you'll need to install a new program." It does highlight Windows Live Mail, but again, not a feature of the OS using only a MS original OEM disc. Also from the Paul Thurott article mentioned earlier, "Windows Live Mail is being discontinued and will be replaced by Metro-style Mail, People, and Calendar apps." So instead of the features being in one application, they are being moved out into multiple applications, thus we might see some of the features come back over time as these additional applications evolve.

    With regards to the Photos app, I will grant you the one out of box is just for consumption of photos more than actually using them for organization or any other more advance purpose, but again quoting what Paul Thurott is expecting to come of that in Windows 8, " Windows Live Photo Gallery and Windows Live Movie Maker will be renamed to Photo Gallery and Movie Maker, respectively. (A consumption-focused Photos app will also be included with Windows 8.)" So, really, the features are coming to RT when the new versions of their Live counter parts have been updated for Windows 8. Also, the reason that I was thinking that I wanted to mention that I was thinking we were talking x86 and x64 and not RT Windows 8 was I grabbed these screen shots from when I plugged in my camera memory card to get pictures off of it earlier and thought I would pass these along. I got to this after right-clicking the memory card in explorer on the tree, and clicking on Import Pictures and Video:

    If I am not mistaken, the third picture here and the picture from the posting above are almost the same (minus the drop down menu at the top) in Windows 7 and Windows 8. So, yes, if we are talking out of the box experience with Windows RT, that is correct, the same feature is not there, but if we are talking about Windows 8 for being a desktop or laptop OS and having the capabilities of a desktop or laptop OS, those two features really are not missing or any different from what they were in the native, clean image of Windows 7. I am not saying that I hate Windows 7 in any way, I am just saying that Windows 8 doesn't lack any features of Windows 7, things are just different. As for forgotten, I think I just proved I use the feature, but I am guessing that most people don't know these features exist because they use the software that comes with their camera in terms of the pictures import and they use a mail app they know in terms of the email, and ultimately, the average user, not the people in TechNet who work in the industry for a living and have to know about these features or enthusiasts, never used them.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 9:11 AM
  • Ok, I never said that there weren't gadgets that didn't do that, I said that there is a live tile that can be pinned to do the same thing. When it comes to Andorid apps running in Windows 7 vs. Windows 8, that can depend on the app, and that is not to mention that some Android apps are coded in C++, which is supported by Metro, some of them are coded in HTML5, which is supported in Metro, and so really there should be very little that would have to be done to move the app over to Metro, and I am sure that someone will come up with a way to run an Android app within RT very quickly because they are so similar in programming languages that they use. As for the full Android "Desktop", yes there are apps out there that can do that, like TightVNC, which is based off Java, and so that could be used in conjunction with a JavaScript, which according to Microsoft is supported in Metro. Arrangement, maybe its better for you on your screen, I like the more columnar arrangement of Windows 8 myself, but that is a personal preference thing, so that one I will give you. As for the Windows 7 compatibility layer, it might be a shift from the traditional Microsoft model, but it still functions exactly the same as it did with Windows 7, at least from the applications that I have used on it (Word 2010, Excel 2010, PowerPoint 2010, Photoshop CS6, Premiere CS6, Audition CS6, InDesign CS6, Illustrator CS6, Skyrim, Mass Effect 3). Not to mention that while there is not a direct link to the gadget gallery, you can still run gadgets on Windows 8 desktop, and to get directly to it from boot is a simple reg key change. So really, yes in Windows 8 you might have to change a reg key to get it to show up like Windows 7 the gadgets and things like that, but they are still there, they didn't get taken out. For Example:

    So yes, it is designed to run for tablets, but in the end, I am OK with that because my hardware resources I could be using to play Skyrim at a higher quality is not being taken off to just run the Windows Explorer Aero feature, and no, maybe right now with Windows 8 not even out of development and the platform not even available on hardware yet, there are some things that seem like a disadvantage, that is same story as it was with Windows 7's original and base platform that it was based on, which was Vista, one of the hated OSs. I do have to agree with you, its not a major jump forward in computing like Microsoft says it is, its just a different way of doing things with Windows and is just a new UI for it, but in terms of functionality, really, the same things that have been there in the past are still there today, just in a different context.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 9:42 AM
  • The screenshots you show are NOT part of windows  nor are they installed automatically but they are from the Live package. So they will be gone soon.

    Many of my users do not install stuff often.. They work with what is inside of the OS. If the OS by default installs a program, then that program is part of the OS. If programs are not installed already they look at Microsoft for an answer. Live is / was that answer. And over half a Billion Users have the live apps installed. The RT programs are going to replace the Live suite. The replacements that MS has given us for review (Do be aware that THIS IS the RELEASE PREVIEW) , is not suited to do many of my tasks. So they are forcing me to buy Outlook or look for 3rd party.



    Monday, June 11, 2012 12:07 PM
  • Windows 8 RP already has all the components they are going to take out removed, and the screen shots from before were taken from the exact same computer:

    as you can see, I do not have Windows Live Photo Gallery installed (nor have I ever really) because the photo import is native to Windows and does not require Windows Live Photo Gallery. Also, even if it were, the point against Windows 8 for that being removed is moot because they are just going to be creating a whole new set of apps that is going to be re-branded and for the Windows 8 platform that are replacing Windows Live Essentials.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:03 PM
  • Here is one I just grabbed from my desktop, which as you can see, Windows Live Photo Gallery is not an option nor installed, and yet I have the same Import Settings dialog as before, and you can see the nice Windows 8 Release Preview watermark in the right corner:

    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:11 PM
  • Does Win8 advance the state of computing???? 

    And THAT, detective, is the right question.

    Incredibly, Microsoft seems incapable of BOTH advancing the state of the art in computing and running toys at the same time!

    Isn't it growing ever more clear that Microsoft is going to do one of two things:  FAIL miserably - or - create a dynamite Windows 9 OS for actual computers and people who need to do real work with them.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:47 PM
  • Advancement to the state of computing, no way, not in the least bit, it is not some huge, giant, "one giant leap for mankind" OS. It is merely an transformation mostly, a little evolution (such as adding in native OS capabilities to use full Hyper-V), but a giant leap? That is the marketing department. Maybe 8 will flop, that is how the OS normally goes, flop then success, flop then success, but saying that its a failure because it doesn't have features that Windows 7 did is not entirely correct. I am sure there are features that it doesn't have that Windows 7 did, but these are not those features. Gadgets are still enabled, and not to mention, when I manually went to get the gadget shown above, it used to say on the gadget site that MS was not going to be having that system available first thing when you get to the page, and when I went there to get those gadgets, there was no mention of that, so maybe Gadgets is going to be held in for a few versions, just not something MS is going to maintain for quality is all.
    Monday, June 11, 2012 3:59 PM
  • That I cannot explain.. When I select the import photos and videos (Photos) option it will give me the Photo RT app import..

    Are you running the latest build ?

    Arjan

    Monday, June 11, 2012 4:58 PM
  • I am using 8400 (RP), and the thing that changed is it comes up when its a device that is selected, so if you plug in a flash drive or an SD card that reads as a flash drive, it will not show it, but right-click, click "Open as Device" and then right click it when its a device, and its right there.

    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:02 PM
  • Here's what you do:

    • Click the Start button (oops, I have ClassicShell - hit the Win key).
    • Type Autoplay (if you are using the Metro interface, click the Settings category).
    • Hit Enter.

    What dialog comes up?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:24 PM
  • AutoPlay is considered a setting, like it was in Windows 7, so if you don't change the context of the search from apps to settings, then you won't see it. Here is the progression that you can follow in Windows 8 to get to the AutoPlay settings and change what a drive does by default when connected to a system. Sorry it's a little big, got it off my 1920 x 1200 monitor:

    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:39 PM
  • AutoPlay is considered a setting, like it was in Windows 7, so if you don't change the context of the search from apps to settings, then you won't see it. Here is the progression that you can follow in Windows 8 to get to the AutoPlay settings and change what a drive does by default when connected to a system. Sorry it's a little big, got it off my 1920 x 1200 monitor:

    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:39 PM
  • Does Win8 advance the state of computing???? 

    And THAT, detective, is the right question.

    Incredibly, Microsoft seems incapable of BOTH advancing the state of the art in computing and running toys at the same time!

    Isn't it growing ever more clear that Microsoft is going to do one of two things:  FAIL miserably - or - create a dynamite Windows 9 OS for actual computers and people who need to do real work with them.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    I think that even users of Win8 are in agreement that it is not advancing the state of computing.  Considering this and considering that most users want to work in the desktop, the question remains as to what a learning effort would contribute.  It is appropriate for users to learn new methodology if this leads to increase in productivity, but in Win8, all the learning would only be used to just maintain the productivity that one originally had.  Thus, the whole thing makes little sense from the user point of view, but a lot of sense to Microsoft.  In the past, it was a win-win proposition (even with Vista) but this is no longer true.  
    Monday, June 11, 2012 5:40 PM
  • In the past, it was a win-win proposition (even with Vista) but this is no longer true.

    Maybe they figure all their good work would be ignored anyway, so they didn't even try this time around.  Most people today regard Vista as a dismal failure, even though it was a fine OS (after a bit of post-release stabilization).

    One has to wonder, though, whether the less tangible advantages of keeping current with Windows 8 could be significant.  Today we can't really imagine a WinRT Metro app adding anything to our productivity, but it's within the realm of posssibility that something may come out as WinRT-only that people interested in doing real work just can't live without.  It remains to be seen how many companies will want to continue to develop new apps for the (actively being deprecated) Win32 side.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Monday, June 11, 2012 6:06 PM
  • In the past, it was a win-win proposition (even with Vista) but this is no longer true.

    Maybe they figure all their good work would be ignored anyway, so they didn't even try this time around.  Most people today regard Vista as a dismal failure, even though it was a fine OS (after a bit of post-release stabilization).

    One has to wonder, though, whether the less tangible advantages of keeping current with Windows 8 could be significant.  Today we can't really imagine a WinRT Metro app adding anything to our productivity, but it's within the realm of posssibility that something may come out as WinRT-only that people interested in doing real work just can't live without.  It remains to be seen how many companies will want to continue to develop new apps for the (actively being deprecated) Win32 side.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Honestly, I would really discount the possibility of any breakthrough program running exclusively on WinRT.  In the first place, the requirements for such apps are such, that they really exclude "rich" computing.  The proposed style doubles up on that.  So, the best you are likely to get is the type of programs running on iOS and Android at this time. 

    On the basis of Microsoft essential considerations and guides for the style for Metro apps, it is impossible for anybody to put together an application that would even approximate the effectiveness, usability and productivity of main desktop apps.  Because the screen is really so sparse, complex commands would necessitate a great depth in menus, making such applications nearly unusable.  Then, one has the small screen to content with (as most of these apps would be targeting 9-10'' screens. In addition, windowing is essential in working in productivity applications and none of the portable OSes do windowing (same with WinRT).  So, trust me, I am not holding my breath.

    In any case, if you wan to run portable apps, you can run Android in your desktop and have access to Android apps.  I am sure that at the end, major apps would be found in all platforms (as it is the case today with iOS and Android).

    I think that Microsoft, with its insistence in training users like Pavlovian dogs (conditioning them to Metro), has missed the boat.  If Win8 booted in the desktop, allowed the user to pin "live tiles" as well as icons, if it allowed WinRT/Metro apps to run in a window, it is quite likely that it would have had the strong support of the Windows community and that it would have sold many, many WinRT apps.  Now, Microsoft leadership has the the follie de grandeur to think that users are no more than dogs ready to jump through hoops to get to the usual biscuit for Microsoft's increased profits.   

    Tuesday, June 12, 2012 5:14 AM
  • I still do not see any other option in there but to autostart the Photo app. So we cannot (without live apps) autostart import of pictures and videos. The option might still be in the OS but hidden away... Not to be found easily. So all unknowing users will be screaming at the Photo app for being a dumb piece of s^&%t...

    BTW : Here is my "How to get to Autoplay" for Windows 7 just 4 keys (or 5 if you count enter to start Autoplay)

    Press <Windows key>
    Type "Aut"
    Press <enter>

    In both systems this is completely screwed up though...  just try to type "import...  Pictures and  Video"   )-> No results....

    Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:57 PM
  • Arjan, install the freeware package ClassicShell and be happy.

    http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

    You're welcome.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:05 AM
  • And in case you want the Windows 7 menu look with Classic Shell which supports skins, just use this skin I created: http://www.askvg.com/download-classic-shell-skin-to-get-windows-7-look-like-start-menu-and-start-button-in-windows-8/
    Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:14 AM
  • That's very cool, xpclient!

    If I hadn't already gotten used to going back to the "old way" with the cascading menus (and which I now prefer over the Windows 7 start menu layout) I would definitely try that skin.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, June 18, 2012 7:48 PM
  • That skin looks great xpclient.  That's what power users do.

    I like that you are equal opportunity...

    Charms on Windows XP/Vista/7

    Monday, June 18, 2012 8:22 PM
  • If I have two monitors.. will one of them be forced to be the metro screen.. or can I have both open to the desktop.. i can pin important apps or make short cuts.. i dont understand the loss of productivity.. i do all my work on dual monitors with apps open everywhere.. i guess ill have to install on a dual monitor system instead of my laptop..

    On my laptop my biggest beef is im constantly clicking back to the home screen, then the desktop icon.. but it hink that is my bad habit.. as I can just click the desktop off to the side in the top left.

    Monday, July 30, 2012 9:38 AM
  • Both can show the desktop, and in a practical sense (e.g., with the installation of ClassicShell as mentioned above) you almost never have to visit the Metro Start screen.

    Windows 8 really can be set up to be a productive desktop-centric environment not too terribly different from Windows 7 if you want it to be.

     

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, July 30, 2012 1:25 PM
  • Both can show the desktop, and in a practical sense (e.g., with the installation of ClassicShell as mentioned above) you almost never have to visit the Metro Start screen.

    Windows 8 really can be set up to be a productive desktop-centric environment not too terribly different from Windows 7 if you want it to be.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel, this may indeed be the case, but you are always one service pack away for this being cancelled out.  I do not think that I want to base purchasing decisions on the availability (or not) of a third party solution.  

    The Win8 desktop is not the same as the Win7 desktop.  I do not believe that it supports gadgets, for example (although there may a work-around for this, as well).  Although not crucial for work, much of their utility has now being transfered to the Start Screen "tiles" which makes returning to the Start Screen the pain it has always been.

    Monday, July 30, 2012 10:17 PM
  • Enterprises do base their business environments on more than just Microsoft software.  Would it be better if ClassicShell were being sold for $99.95?

    It strikes me that the Justice Department might get interested if Microsoft goes too far in blocking software from working purely in pursuit of their goals of greed.  It's not like it hasn't happened before.

    Honestly, there's so much knowledge under the caps of 3rd party developers that anything Microsoft could do to block such things will be worked around in fairly short order (it's been the case so far).  I expect Microsoft may well break something in this area with the RTM of Windows 8, then a ClassicShell update within weeks (days maybe) will get it working again.  It's software, and no protection scheme Microsoft can conceive (hint: they're not that smart) will block people from changing out or augmenting parts of Windows as long as the user gives permission.

    Regarding gadgets...  Yes, they have been removed, in the name of security (wink wink), but I wonder whether someone might find a way to bring them back as well.  I haven't ever found much use for gadgets myself, so they don't figure prominently in my thoughts, and I personally won't miss them.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:22 AM
  • Enterprises do base their business environments on more than just Microsoft software.  Would it be better if ClassicShell were being sold for $99.95?

    It strikes me that the Justice Department might get interested if Microsoft goes too far in blocking software from working purely in pursuit of their goals of greed.  It's not like it hasn't happened before.

    Honestly, there's so much knowledge under the caps of 3rd party developers that anything Microsoft could do to block such things will be worked around in fairly short order (it's been the case so far).  I expect Microsoft may well break something in this area with the RTM of Windows 8, then a ClassicShell update within weeks (days maybe) will get it working again.  It's software, and no protection scheme Microsoft can conceive (hint: they're not that smart) will block people from changing out or augmenting parts of Windows as long as the user gives permission.

    Regarding gadgets...  Yes, they have been removed, in the name of security (wink wink), but I wonder whether someone might find a way to bring them back as well.  I haven't ever found much use for gadgets myself, so they don't figure prominently in my thoughts, and I personally won't miss them.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    There are some legitimately highly useful gadgets.  Pandora, for one, BBC and PBC radio, market tickers, etc.  I also enjoy the Dilbert carton gadget.   Thus, you can run these useful programs without opening any applications.  Extremely useful. How do you suggest replacing this functionality in Win8?  
    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:11 AM
  • Well, the Pandora web site works in Windows 8 rignt now.  The others might as well, though for audio you could imagine starting a Metro version then returning to your desktop and just letting it play.  Yes, I agree that wouldn't be as convenient as keeping the controls on-screen.

    Arguably none of these things you've mentioned, while enhancing the working environment (I play music all the time through my system) is necessary to get real work done, and are usually frowned-upon in enterprise environments (keeping this thread subject in mind).

    That said, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the developers at these companies, seeing the demise of the ability to run their gadgets, might just develop desktop versions of their apps.  Do you think they want to lose that ad space? 

    Or that you might find suitable replacements to keep you entertained.  Let's not forget that Windows Media Player and others are desktop apps.  I listen to most of my music via links to streaming stations that feed WMP directly, or on web pages.

    Frankly I never found the concept of gadgets attractive, in that they just do what a halfway decently programmed desktop app could do anyway.  I was involved with creating a chat translation gadget back when Google came out with their concept of the Google Desktop and its gadgets.  In hindsight, that was the beginning of this silly idea that a whole new, exciting, and different way of doing things was needed - complete BS.  Just some geeks trying to find something interesting to occupy their time instead of that boring old desktop programming they had been doing, and ultimately not doing it as well as the original geeks (no doubt retired and at the beach now) did.

    Is anyone working on a 3rd party desktop framework for running beloved old gadgets?  No doubt someone's already thought of that.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:49 PM
  • Well, the Pandora web site works in Windows 8 rignt now.  The others might as well, though for audio you could imagine starting a Metro version then returning to your desktop and just letting it play.  Yes, I agree that wouldn't be as convenient as keeping the controls on-screen.

    Arguably none of these things you've mentioned, while enhancing the working environment (I play music all the time through my system) is necessary to get real work done, and are usually frowned-upon in enterprise environments (keeping this thread subject in mind).

    That said, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the developers at these companies, seeing the demise of the ability to run their gadgets, might just develop desktop versions of their apps.  Do you think they want to lose that ad space? 

    Or that you might find suitable replacements to keep you entertained.  Let's not forget that Windows Media Player and others are desktop apps.  I listen to most of my music via links to streaming stations that feed WMP directly, or on web pages.

    Frankly I never found the concept of gadgets attractive, in that they just do what a halfway decently programmed desktop app could do anyway.  I was involved with creating a chat translation gadget back when Google came out with their concept of the Google Desktop and its gadgets.  In hindsight, that was the beginning of this silly idea that a whole new, exciting, and different way of doing things was needed - complete BS.  Just some geeks trying to find something interesting to occupy their time instead of that boring old desktop programming they had been doing, and ultimately not doing it as well as the original geeks (no doubt retired and at the beach now) did.

    Is anyone working on a 3rd party desktop framework for running beloved old gadgets?  No doubt someone's already thought of that.

     

    Well, it is not the same, is it?  On a large monitor, the Pandora gadget is really next to your working document/spreadsheet/presentation and one can easily change "stations" or approve/disprove songs, etc.  In addition, one can change BBC stations with the BBC gadget (or NPR program, etc).  One can also check the continuously changing DJ, Nasdaq or specific stock quotes, etc.  It is ridiculous right now that just to get this usability, one would have to be flipping back and forth to the Start Screen.  Ridiculous to the extreme.

    Is all of that "real work"?  No, not per se.  On the other hand, they are the little essentials that make our lives a bit better.

    And this is why the Win8 desktop, however you dress it, is not equivalent to the Win7 desktop.  I seriously doubt that anybody has developed a matrix in which gadgets can run in Win8.  Microsoft has been quite diligent in eradicating gadgets in any case, because it knows very well that they cancel out the whole "live tiles" concept.  In fact, a screen supporting gadgets is likely far more effective than the silly tiles of the Start Screen. 

    Which fully explains the urgency that Microsoft felt in eradicating gadgets

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:04 PM
  • I, like you, used Win8 on my work machine for several months.. my work machine is an 8-core i7, 24GB DDR3 custom built desktop that I use to run several dev VMs to be used for testing P2V migrations and various software upgrades. Naturally, I fell in love with being able to use Hyper-V directly on my machine and not having to fool with dual booting Server or using a Dev VM environment we have setup. Win8 for me was all downhill from there though in my opinion, as I'm sure many other SysAdmin types would agree. For a software engineer Win8 will not effect your work whatsoever as far as I can tell, as long as you can open VS2010 and SQL you guys are golden.

    Now from the other end of the prospective IT world, Windows 8 is far from glamorous. Some things I noticed right out of the gate, and they probably all stem from WinRM/WIM compatibility issues:

    • Exchange 2010 management console does not work, it will open but fails to connect to the CAS server.
    • RSAT tools are pretty much useless unless working with Server 2012 boxes, does Microsoft think that all of our production servers will automagically upgrade from 08 R2 to 2012? We need some backwards compatibility here.
    • SCVMM 2012 console won't even install on Windows 8, and from the sound of it from a few posts by the SC team, it never will. Making things rather difficult for those of us managing large VM environments.
    • Hyper-V manager won't connect to 08 R2 Hyper-V instances and vice versa.
    • Once you fill up your start screen, it can be troublesome to find newly installed software.
    • Metro apps are stuck to the primary monitor and can't be moved to a secondary monitor for those of us running duals? Really?

    I'm sure there are several things I'm missing, but the point is, for those of us "power users" there are a lot of details being overlooked, most of them involving backwards compatibility. I think it's fair to EOL OS's that are pushing 10-12 years and force upgrades, I'm sure a lot of time is wasted on trying to keep backwards compatible for such a wide time frame, but you can't EOL the predecessor to your newest release, it's insanity to expect people to upgrade so quick.

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:47 PM
  • I, like you, used Win8 on my work machine for several months.. my work machine is an 8-core i7, 24GB DDR3 custom built desktop that I use to run several dev VMs to be used for testing P2V migrations and various software upgrades. Naturally, I fell in love with being able to use Hyper-V directly on my machine and not having to fool with dual booting Server or using a Dev VM environment we have setup. Win8 for me was all downhill from there though in my opinion, as I'm sure many other SysAdmin types would agree. For a software engineer Win8 will not effect your work whatsoever as far as I can tell, as long as you can open VS2010 and SQL you guys are golden.

    Now from the other end of the prospective IT world, Windows 8 is far from glamorous. Some things I noticed right out of the gate, and they probably all stem from WinRM/WIM compatibility issues:

    • Exchange 2010 management console does not work, it will open but fails to connect to the CAS server.
    • RSAT tools are pretty much useless unless working with Server 2012 boxes, does Microsoft think that all of our production servers will automagically upgrade from 08 R2 to 2012? We need some backwards compatibility here.
    • SCVMM 2012 console won't even install on Windows 8, and from the sound of it from a few posts by the SC team, it never will. Making things rather difficult for those of us managing large VM environments.
    • Hyper-V manager won't connect to 08 R2 Hyper-V instances and vice versa.
    • Once you fill up your start screen, it can be troublesome to find newly installed software.
    • Metro apps are stuck to the primary monitor and can't be moved to a secondary monitor for those of us running duals? Really?

    I'm sure there are several things I'm missing, but the point is, for those of us "power users" there are a lot of details being overlooked, most of them involving backwards compatibility. I think it's fair to EOL OS's that are pushing 10-12 years and force upgrades, I'm sure a lot of time is wasted on trying to keep backwards compatible for such a wide time frame, but you can't EOL the predecessor to your newest release, it's insanity to expect people to upgrade so quick.

    Well, we are in full agreement.  I fully understand that there are many items missing or deficient in the Win8 desktop, but you need to see this from the Microsoft point of view.  From MSFT's of view, Win8 represents a total break with the past, is is "Windows re-imagined".  Microsoft actually considers its actions of providing a desktop mode as a concession to users to support a "legacy environment" (yes, indeed, Win7 is now officially legacy) and in the words of Sinofski himself, it hopes to convince developers to start producing code that works exclusively in the "new" Windows (WinRT) and not any more in the "legacy" mode (Win32). 

    Microsoft has a strong bias towards this, and no user should under-estimate this.  If developers start coding for the WinRT API, the resulting products can be utilized not only by Windows 8 (under the WinRT mode) but also in the pure portable environment (Windows RT).  Microsoft has absolutely no interest and it would actively discourage any further development in Win32.  Programs running under Win32 "fragment" the new "re-imagined" Windows ecosystem and they cannot be sold by the Windows Marketplace (no money to Microsoft's pockets). For all intents and purposes, Microsoft has orphaned Windows 7.  My guess is that after Office 2013, software running in Win7 coming out of Redmond would be just a trickle, if any.  So, you either adopt the new Microsoft group-think, or you should be getting ready to jump.

    Now, you can say that WinRT supports just full screen, non-multitasking applications.  So what?  What is wrong with you?  Don't you want an "immersive" experience?  Dual monitors? Are they touch enabled?  Can you carry these monitors and use them with your fingers?  No?  Too bad!!!  You are just a dinosaur not changing with the times!! 

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:18 PM
  • Whilst the new interface at first was somewhat scary to me, I have a few things to say about Windows 8.

    From a local Microsoft event I attended, although the changes might seem like garbage, there are a few interesting points to note:

    First, the kernel size on Win8 has been severely reduced, my laptop boots twice as fast as it does on 7. For work purposes, I'm running a dual-boot with Windows 7.

    Personally, I have no problem with getting used to a touch based interface. In fact, I think that if you're willing to open your mind, it's something great. Why? Well, especially if you work in Tech Support, a standardized interface will eventually cut down on the number of support requests from people who have issues getting used to going from Desktop to laptop to tablet to phone and so forth.

    As much as everyone hated Vista (myself included), we have to recognize that it gave way to numerous advancements in security and other factors of windows. I remember when Windows 7 was about to come out how people ranted so much about the changes to the taskbar... those same people now can't live without them.

    OP states that Windows 8 is an insult, yet you haven't really gone into detail about why, other than having to get used to a new interface. Once you get used to the Metro interface (shortcuts and such), working with your PC is pretty much a breeze, and this comes from someone who uses Photoshop, Expression, and Visual Studio heavily on a daily basis. 

    From what I've heard quite a few people say (and I think there is some truth), Windows releases go in cycles:

    Windows XP (good) > Windows Vista (bad) > Windows 7 (good) > Windows 8 (bad)

    As superstitious and ridiculous as it may seem, what needs to be taken from this pattern isn't that releases will be good or bad, rather that what might seem bad to you at the moment will eventually give way to something better.

    Your cloud argument is valid - I, too, do not like the idea of having my files on somebody else's physical storage media. However, you are not FORCED to utilize THEIR cloud technology - if your business wants to setup a cloud, it's just as good as sticking to the old network share system.

    Finally, if you've tried Server 2012 - you'd be amazed. At least to me it seems a lot simpler and includes so many things that save you several frustrations - just the server manager is a HUGE improvement over '08 R2.

    Remember: You are criticizing a Release Preview, not the final product. 

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I am human, too! :)

    -Julian


    P.S: If you hate the Metro interface so much, just download Classic Shell and get the best of both worlds ;)
    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:03 PM
  • Can't fault your logic, but do try to take it easy ADRz - I sure don't want to see you get a heart attack over this.  The world needs all the clear-thinking people it can get!

    Funny...  In the old story "The Emperor's New Clothes" the whole charade ended when the Emperor's fallacy was pointed out by a clear-thinking, plain-speaking child.  But of course that was just a fable.  This is big business.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:05 PM
  • Whilst the new interface at first was somewhat scary to me, I have a few things to say about Windows 8.

    From a local Microsoft event I attended, although the changes might seem like garbage, there are a few interesting points to note:

    First, the kernel size on Win8 has been severely reduced, my laptop boots twice as fast as it does on 7. For work purposes, I'm running a dual-boot with Windows 7.

    Personally, I have no problem with getting used to a touch based interface. In fact, I think that if you're willing to open your mind, it's something great. Why? Well, especially if you work in Tech Support, a standardized interface will eventually cut down on the number of support requests from people who have issues getting used to going from Desktop to laptop to tablet to phone and so forth.

    As much as everyone hated Vista (myself included), we have to recognize that it gave way to numerous advancements in security and other factors of windows. I remember when Windows 7 was about to come out how people ranted so much about the changes to the taskbar... those same people now can't live without them.

    OP states that Windows 8 is an insult, yet you haven't really gone into detail about why, other than having to get used to a new interface. Once you get used to the Metro interface (shortcuts and such), working with your PC is pretty much a breeze, and this comes from someone who uses Photoshop, Expression, and Visual Studio heavily on a daily basis. 

    From what I've heard quite a few people say (and I think there is some truth), Windows releases go in cycles:

    Windows XP (good) > Windows Vista (bad) > Windows 7 (good) > Windows 8 (bad)

    As superstitious and ridiculous as it may seem, what needs to be taken from this pattern isn't that releases will be good or bad, rather that what might seem bad to you at the moment will eventually give way to something better.

    Your cloud argument is valid - I, too, do not like the idea of having my files on somebody else's physical storage media. However, you are not FORCED to utilize THEIR cloud technology - if your business wants to setup a cloud, it's just as good as sticking to the old network share system.

    Finally, if you've tried Server 2012 - you'd be amazed. At least to me it seems a lot simpler and includes so many things that save you several frustrations - just the server manager is a HUGE improvement over '08 R2.

    Remember: You are criticizing a Release Preview, not the final product. 

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I am human, too! :)

    -Julian



    Very well put.
    Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:10 PM
  • I, like you, used Win8 on my work machine for several months.. my work machine is an 8-core i7, 24GB DDR3 custom built desktop that I use to run several dev VMs to be used for testing P2V migrations and various software upgrades. Naturally, I fell in love with being able to use Hyper-V directly on my machine and not having to fool with dual booting Server or using a Dev VM environment we have setup. Win8 for me was all downhill from there though in my opinion, as I'm sure many other SysAdmin types would agree. For a software engineer Win8 will not effect your work whatsoever as far as I can tell, as long as you can open VS2010 and SQL you guys are golden.

    Now from the other end of the prospective IT world, Windows 8 is far from glamorous. Some things I noticed right out of the gate, and they probably all stem from WinRM/WIM compatibility issues:

    • Exchange 2010 management console does not work, it will open but fails to connect to the CAS server.
    • RSAT tools are pretty much useless unless working with Server 2012 boxes, does Microsoft think that all of our production servers will automagically upgrade from 08 R2 to 2012? We need some backwards compatibility here.
    • SCVMM 2012 console won't even install on Windows 8, and from the sound of it from a few posts by the SC team, it never will. Making things rather difficult for those of us managing large VM environments.
    • Hyper-V manager won't connect to 08 R2 Hyper-V instances and vice versa.
    • Once you fill up your start screen, it can be troublesome to find newly installed software.
    • Metro apps are stuck to the primary monitor and can't be moved to a secondary monitor for those of us running duals? Really?

    I'm sure there are several things I'm missing, but the point is, for those of us "power users" there are a lot of details being overlooked, most of them involving backwards compatibility. I think it's fair to EOL OS's that are pushing 10-12 years and force upgrades, I'm sure a lot of time is wasted on trying to keep backwards compatible for such a wide time frame, but you can't EOL the predecessor to your newest release, it's insanity to expect people to upgrade so quick.

    Well, we are in full agreement.  I fully understand that there are many items missing or deficient in the Win8 desktop, but you need to see this from the Microsoft point of view.  From MSFT's of view, Win8 represents a total break with the past, is is "Windows re-imagined".  Microsoft actually considers its actions of providing a desktop mode as a concession to users to support a "legacy environment" (yes, indeed, Win7 is now officially legacy) and in the words of Sinofski himself, it hopes to convince developers to start producing code that works exclusively in the "new" Windows (WinRT) and not any more in the "legacy" mode (Win32). 

    Microsoft has a strong bias towards this, and no user should under-estimate this.  If developers start coding for the WinRT API, the resulting products can be utilized not only by Windows 8 (under the WinRT mode) but also in the pure portable environment (Windows RT).  Microsoft has absolutely no interest and it would actively discourage any further development in Win32.  Programs running under Win32 "fragment" the new "re-imagined" Windows ecosystem and they cannot be sold by the Windows Marketplace (no money to Microsoft's pockets). For all intents and purposes, Microsoft has orphaned Windows 7.  My guess is that after Office 2013, software running in Win7 coming out of Redmond would be just a trickle, if any.  So, you either adopt the new Microsoft group-think, or you should be getting ready to jump.

    Now, you can say that WinRT supports just full screen, non-multitasking applications.  So what?  What is wrong with you?  Don't you want an "immersive" experience?  Dual monitors? Are they touch enabled?  Can you carry these monitors and use them with your fingers?  No?  Too bad!!!  You are just a dinosaur not changing with the times!! 


    That last paragraph made me LOL, thank you for that ADRz.
    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 12:53 PM
  • This isn't about wanting to log onto Facebook with my desktop PC and refusing to adjust to a touch based OS. This is about going to work every day and creating graphics, coding websites, editing video, working on spreadsheets, and using a Desktop PC to its full advantages. After 20 years of being a loyal Windows user, despite listening to endless drivel from elitist Apple fans, Microsoft has not only decided to alienate me and others like me, but they are doing it rudely without addressing any of our concerns. I predict one of the biggest flops of all time. Windows 8 will dwarf Vista and Me when it comes to war stories about bad OS's. This time, however, there is an added element of snide and pretentiousness . . as if Microsoft has declared themselves the new master of my PC use, and in term, my livelihood.

    This will surely fall on deaf ears, but its more therapeutic for me to just say right here and right now, that the second Microsoft stops supporting Windows 7 is the last second I will consider myself a Microsoft customer. I will go Mac or Linux before I ever allow you to dictate how I will use my computer, store my files on my OWNED hard-drive rather than your "cloud" advertising research tool, or accept that designing for systems 1/10th the power of an average desktop PC is somehow "the future."

    Unless massive changes are made at this company and Windows 9 addresses these concerns, I'm done.

    - A 20 Year Windows User

    Funny how I can do all that with Windows 8 and much faster than before.
    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 1:24 PM
  • When we transitioned from the horse and buggy to the horseless carriage we did not stop producing and feeding horses or carriages.

    I am well aware that it IS actually possible, with about a half day's work, to move the new, fashionable metropolitan BS to the background and get back to where Windows 8 is a serious workhorse. As I do not have time to do this for 200 + users at implementation, Nor do I have the funds available to train them all this OS is DOA.


    deisenhour1

    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 6:25 PM
  • I am just saying that Windows 8 doesn't lack any features of Windows 7, things are just different. - Except DVD Play, Media Center, The Start Menu, Gadgets..........


    deisenhour1

    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 6:52 PM
  • When we transitioned from the horse and buggy to the horseless carriage we did not stop producing and feeding horses or carriages.

    I am well aware that it IS actually possible, with about a half day's work, to move the new, fashionable metropolitan BS to the background and get back to where Windows 8 is a serious workhorse. As I do not have time to do this for 200 + users at implementation, Nor do I have the funds available to train them all this OS is DOA.


    deisenhour1

    Windows 7 will continue to be sold and supported long after the release of Windows 8. Oh and just because you don't like Metro doesn't mean Windows 8 is not a serious workhorse. To quote PMantha76 "Funny how I can do all that with Windows 8 and much faster than before." I've had the same experience on all my machines from tablets, laptops and even my desktop machine. My gaming rig (the desktop) runs faster than ever and all my games are running better than they did on Windows 7. My laptop (Lenovo x220t) runs Visual Studio and all my "serious" work applications with no problems. Windows 8 offers so much but most people cannot see if because they're too busy looking for a start button. :)
    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 9:23 PM
  • Windows 7 will continue to be sold and supported long after the release of Windows 8. Oh and just because you don't like Metro doesn't mean Windows 8 is not a serious workhorse. To quote PMantha76 "Funny how I can do all that with Windows 8 and much faster than before." I've had the same experience on all my machines from tablets, laptops and even my desktop machine. My gaming rig (the desktop) runs faster than ever and all my games are running better than they did on Windows 7. My laptop (Lenovo x220t) runs Visual Studio and all my "serious" work applications with no problems. Windows 8 offers so much but most people cannot see if because they're too busy looking for a start button. :)

    There we go, very well said!

    Personally, I can't imagine my laptop without Windows 8, it truly has a lot to offer beyond the new interface.

    Wednesday, August 01, 2012 9:37 PM
  • When we transitioned from the horse and buggy to the horseless carriage we did not stop producing and feeding horses or carriages.

    I am well aware that it IS actually possible, with about a half day's work, to move the new, fashionable metropolitan BS to the background and get back to where Windows 8 is a serious workhorse. As I do not have time to do this for 200 + users at implementation, Nor do I have the funds available to train them all this OS is DOA.


    deisenhour1

    Windows 7 will continue to be sold and supported long after the release of Windows 8. Oh and just because you don't like Metro doesn't mean Windows 8 is not a serious workhorse. To quote PMantha76 "Funny how I can do all that with Windows 8 and much faster than before." I've had the same experience on all my machines from tablets, laptops and even my desktop machine. My gaming rig (the desktop) runs faster than ever and all my games are running better than they did on Windows 7. My laptop (Lenovo x220t) runs Visual Studio and all my "serious" work applications with no problems. Windows 8 offers so much but most people cannot see if because they're too busy looking for a start button. :)
    lol exactly my sentiments, very well said sir.
    Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:59 PM
  • Guys, you need to applaud MS for doing something revolutionary. We need to remain patient.

    Do you want Microsoft to end up like RIM??? For having no vision or not wanting to change with the times???

    Hanging in there...Primetime21

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:02 PM
  • Guys, you need to applaud MS for doing something revolutionary. We need to remain patient.

    Do you want Microsoft to end up like RIM??? For having no vision or not wanting to change with the times???

    Hanging in there...Primetime21

    Agreed, and remember folks this is in reality v1.0. There are still a number of things I would like improved in Windows 8. The success of Windows 8 depends on MS continuing to update and refine the OS. As they said in the recent blog, "While we have reached our RTM milestone, no software project is ever really “done.” We will continue to monitor and act on your real world experiences with Windows 8"

    Windows had to be "re-imagined" for the seismic shift in the tech industry. Computing is no longer a place you go to - a desktop with a screen. It is something you do - be it on a desktop, laptop, phone or the cloud and its pervasive. Its about time that PC's start working like appliances and stop having to be micro-managed so much. For example the computer is way better than you at managing memory, so why the whole kerfuffle about manually closing metro apps in Windows 8? Let the computer handle it. Just the fact that Windows 8 needs less reboots and starts faster is in itself will add productivity.

    As power users or techies - its all about change. Technology keeps moving and that why its so exciting to be involved in the industry. This is Microsoft's vision for the future of Windows and they have taken on a huge bet and only time will tell if its the right one. But I'm confident it will be a success.


    • Edited by PM76 Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:54 PM
    Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:53 PM
  • Well, there is always communist Apple available to develop for if you want.

    Primetime21

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 4:18 PM
  • It was intended to be a worse senario than your so-called dictatorship. With communists, your are just a robot that owns nothing. Dictators will give you some assets and control as long as you give them the illusion they have most of it.

    Primetime21

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 5:01 PM
    • This is Microsoft's vision for the future of Windows

    • UEFI Secure Boot
    • OEM Activation (OA) 3.0
    • App Store and MS Cloud Services

    • These  reimagined  Windows 8 advancements are just ways to lock MS into the firmware in your computer, while removing your control of software on your harddrive.

      If you want to euphemize this to mean productivity improvements, well, one definition of shill includes the term "accomplice".

    Shill on, friend.


    UEFI Secure Boot - As far as I understand only mandated in Windows RT devices. You can switch this off in x86 PCs or sign your own. Problematic for those who want to load Linux on tablets but distros are moving towards enabling secure boot. On the plus side this secures the device from malware. By the way its not only Windows RT but also the iPad, Kindle, Xbox, Ps3 etc only allow signed code. So if you think there could be some anti-trust lawsuit, dream on.

    OEM Activation 3.0 - The OEM license lives and dies on the PC it is activated. Just because there are workarounds and hacks  doesn't make it OK. You do not own the copy of Windows, you only license it. OEM Activation 3.0 ensures you are compliant

    App Store & MS Cloud Service - Not a big fan of the App store and I wish it was possible for MS to allow other app stores. However this is only for metro apps and on the PC you get to purchase directly from the vendor. It ensures only signed software is installed and minimise the risk of malware. Not sure what is your issue with the MS cloud service?? Google, Amazon and many others have their own cloud services.

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 8:05 PM
  • Guys, you need to applaud MS for doing something revolutionary. We need to remain patient.

    Do you want Microsoft to end up like RIM??? For having no vision or not wanting to change with the times???

    Hanging in there...Primetime21

    Agreed, and remember folks this is in reality v1.0. There are still a number of things I would like improved in Windows 8. The success of Windows 8 depends on MS continuing to update and refine the OS. As they said in the recent blog, "While we have reached our RTM milestone, no software project is ever really “done.” We will continue to monitor and act on your real world experiences with Windows 8"

    Windows had to be "re-imagined" for the seismic shift in the tech industry. Computing is no longer a place you go to - a desktop with a screen. It is something you do - be it on a desktop, laptop, phone or the cloud and its pervasive. Its about time that PC's start working like appliances and stop having to be micro-managed so much. For example the computer is way better than you at managing memory, so why the whole kerfuffle about manually closing metro apps in Windows 8? Let the computer handle it. Just the fact that Windows 8 needs less reboots and starts faster is in itself will add productivity.

    As power users or techies - its all about change. Technology keeps moving and that why its so exciting to be involved in the industry. This is Microsoft's vision for the future of Windows and they have taken on a huge bet and only time will tell if its the right one. But I'm confident it will be a success.


    Sorry, but turning Windows into a portable, touch-centric OS is not my definition of progress.  Dumbing down the OS to work well on touch devices is not progress, is a commercial move to compete with even better portable OSes and has nothing to do with the "future".  If this is the "future" of technology, I am getting off the bus!!

    Microsoft would not be successful in this venture.  Its touch-centric devices would not be able to compete against the ones by Apple; they would not be able to compete against Android at the low end, either.  By pissing-off the current user base (which gets a tablefied desktop OS), Microsoft is risking disaster. 

    I have a hearty laughs when people mention that Win8 boots faster than Win7 as a great advantage.  Put an SSD in any machine, or use a tiny SSD cache (64 GB would do) and the speed increases are tremendous, well above the few seconds that Win8 shaves off!!

    Then, we have the assertion that multitasking is "so passe".  Somebody is eating Microsoft marketing with a big spoon.  PMathan76 says "let the system shut down applications"!!! and he sees that as an advantage.  After working for so many years to have full and true multitasking, let's abandon it for "re-imagining" Windows into a silly, limited, full screen portable OS.  Hurrah!!!  This is called progress....back to the days of DOS!!!  Let me inform you PMathan76, that Android manages to do true multitasking!!!

    Let me provide my definition of what is an advance in the state of computing: anything that makes the computer "smarter", anything that makes the computer a more valuable (and potentially intelligent) assistant in one's work or entertainment, is a legitimate progress.  By this definition, the dumbed-down Windows 8 is definitely not an advance in the state of computing.

    What is then Windows 8?  It is the following:

    (a) an attempt by Microsoft to grab a share of the portable computing market

    (b) an attempt by Microsoft to create a closed ecosystem moving to the future, as closed as the one by Apple.  Provided that Microsoft is successful in moving all development to WinRT, then, in a few years, one would have a totally closed environment and the only place to buy applications would be the Windows Marketplace. 

    (c) an attempt by Microsoft to move complex computing (what we refer to today as "desktop computing") to the cloud.  The new versions of Office point clearly to this direction.  Windows 8 devices would be running the "Mail" app, but for those who want more capabilities there would be Outlook.com, Office 365 (Plus, Executive, Professional, etc) which would include much higher capabilities than the "consumerized" version of Office.

    Thus, Windows 8 is not an advance in the state of computing.  It is a naked marketing effort by a corporation to increase its revenues in a new market utilizing its existing user base.  It is important for Microsoft shareholders. 

    Win8 is also important for Windows users because it forces them to think about the future and what kind of computing is important to them.

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 8:53 PM

  • Windows 8  ties the PC firmware to the Windows O/S, and tethers the computer online at bootup to MS.

    These are the most aggressive steps that Microsoft has ever undertaken to control the PC industry.


    For exactly this kind of reason,  the industry and consumers alike are in migration to anywhere that Microsoft is not.

    They're leaving because they finally can.



    Windows 8 will only increase those feelings of badwill and accelerate that exodus.

    I cannot blame Microsoft for trying....to imitate Apple!  So far, the imitation has not been a success!!!  One can look at the abysmal failure of Windows Phone 7.x that tried to imitate the iOS experience.  My guess is that Windows Phone 8 will be pretty much a disaster as well (hardly any applications).  On the other hand, Google's Android has been outrageously successful utilizing the open model and the virtually unlimited user customization capability that Microsoft has abandoned.  However, anybody that has pointed this out in Microsoft has already been fired. 

    And Sinofski keeps writing his vacuous blogs.....

    Thursday, August 02, 2012 11:13 PM
  • Ding Dong, the FBI, DHS, and USDOJ are on your front door steps! :-)
    Friday, August 03, 2012 6:20 AM
  • P.S. And just how did you get RTM before it's even out? Naughty, Naughty, Baby!
    Friday, August 03, 2012 7:28 AM

  • Windows 8  ties the PC firmware to the Windows O/S, and tethers the computer online at bootup to MS.

    These are the most aggressive steps that Microsoft has ever undertaken to control the PC industry.


    For exactly this kind of reason,  the industry and consumers alike are in migration to anywhere that Microsoft is not.

    They're leaving because they finally can.



    Windows 8 will only increase those feelings of badwill and accelerate that exodus.





    PMathan.  Try to spin it any other way you can, but that's plainly what it is.  The things you cite are FUD and cliche.

    Speak for yourself mate
    Friday, August 03, 2012 11:36 AM
  • @Vapor Lock

    "PMathan.  Try to spin it any other way you can, but that's plainly what it is.  The things you cite are FUD and cliche."

    Hey PMathan, you know you're in trouble when facts are considered FUD and cliche.

    @ADRz

    "One can look at the abysmal failure of Windows Phone 7.x that tried to imitate the iOS experience.  My guess is that Windows Phone 8 will be pretty much a disaster as well (hardly any applications).  On the other hand, Google's Android has been outrageously successful utilizing the open model and the virtually unlimited user customization capability that Microsoft has abandoned.  However, anybody that has pointed this out in Microsoft has already been fired."

    Windows Phone 7.x makers aren't being sued by Apple.  That's not the case in the Android camp.  Android is a nice phone OS but it's also a cybercriminal's wet dream.  Apps with excessive permissions, self-signed code, malware infested App Store, and app installation from unknown sources for starters.  That flexibility has tradeoffs when it comes to security.

    Friday, August 03, 2012 2:54 PM
  • @Vapor Lock

    "PMathan.  Try to spin it any other way you can, but that's plainly what it is.  The things you cite are FUD and cliche."

    Hey PMathan, you know you're in trouble when facts are considered FUD and cliche.

    @ADRz

    etc.

    Dgobe, may I respectfully suggest using the Quote link or <blockquote>  </blockquote> tags in the HTML to differentiate quoted text from what you've written.  It will help make your thoughts easier to differentiate from those of others, and probably give you more credibility as someone who knows how to use technical interfaces.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, August 03, 2012 3:27 PM
  • "Dgobe, may I respectfully suggest using the Quote link or <blockquote>  </blockquote> tags in the HTML to differentiate quoted text from what you've written.  It will help make your thoughts easier to differentiate from those of others, and probably give you more credibility as someone who knows how to use technical interfaces."

    I'm using Windows 8 :-P  As opposed to the credibility of the people describing technical facts as FUD?  I know how to use the blockquotes Noel it's just a PITA and I don't want to take the time.  It's already tiresome to reply to the same ignorant comments over and over.


    Would you like to add anything to the secure boot comment?  That's it's just an MS lock-in and has no useful purpose?
    • Edited by dgobe Friday, August 03, 2012 3:34 PM
    Friday, August 03, 2012 3:31 PM
  • I'm using Windows 8 :-P

    So what are you saying, that you don't know how to click a Quote link using IE10 in Windows 8, nor edit the HTML in a forum post?  Would you like some help learning to do that?

    Edit:  Sorry, I see that you said you know how in a later sentence, which apparently I skimmed over before.  If you're unwilling to express your thoughts in ways that make it clear you've put your best effort into them, how are others to be expected to take them seriously?

     

    And no, I'm not really interested in joining a discussion on secure boot, as I haven't researched it enough to have a valid opinion on it.

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    Friday, August 03, 2012 3:39 PM
  • I know how to use the blockquotes Noel it's just a PITA and I don't want to take the time.  It's already tiresome to reply to the same ignorant comments over and over.

    It's not convenient when quoting multiple posts and I don't care to take the time.  You can skip over them if it offends you.

    I've designed more database driven websites than I care to remember.  You think placing <blockquote> </blockquote> around some text makes you more credible?

    You don't know enough about secure boot to know that calling it an MS lock-in is BS?  Then you want to make a bush league comment about teaching me HTML?

    Friday, August 03, 2012 3:49 PM

  • So what are you saying, that you don't know how to click a Quote link using IE10 in Windows 8, nor edit the HTML in a forum post?  Would you like some help learning to do that?

    It's not convenient when quoting multiple posts and I don't care to take the time, read my last comment.  You want to make an arrogant comment about teaching me HTML when I've designed more database driven websites than I care to remember.  Typical Noel.

    This is being described as FUD...

    UEFI Secure Boot - As far as I understand only mandated in Windows RT devices. You can switch this off in x86 PCs or sign your own. Problematic for those who want to load Linux on tablets but distros are moving towards enabling secure boot. On the plus side this secures the device from malware. By the way its not only Windows RT but also the iPad, Kindle, Xbox, Ps3 etc only allow signed code. So if you think there could be some anti-trust lawsuit, dream on.

    Do some research and get back to me on that.  You want to insult me when you don't know enough about the subject being discussed.


    P.S. I didn't use the quote in my last post because you were being ignorant not because I don't know how to click a link.
    • Edited by dgobe Friday, August 03, 2012 4:02 PM
    Friday, August 03, 2012 3:59 PM
  • I know more than you do about a lot of things, and I'm sure there are a huge number of things you know that I don't.  I've no interest in a "who's a bigger geek" contest - I was just trying to help you express yourself better. 

    You can skip over them

    You hit the nail on the head - I (and I'm sure others) just skip over comments where the writer has failed to make the effort to be clear.  Somehow I don't think that's your intent in writing here.

    Then you want to make a bush league comment about teaching me HTML?

    You should know that people who get confrontational about things are often covering up insecurity because of doubts about how much they really do know about the subjects being discussed.  I have not insulted you; in fact I have tried to help you.  If you don't need it nor want it, there's no need to get upset.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, August 03, 2012 4:07 PM
  • Your posts were rightly perceived as condescending arrogance.  You can pretend that you were legitimately offering help, help that wasn't needed.

    I'm not covering up insecurities Noel I was pointing out yet another ignorant comment.

    This is being described as FUD...

    UEFI Secure Boot - As far as I understand only mandated in Windows RT devices. You can switch this off in x86 PCs or sign your own. Problematic for those who want to load Linux on tablets but distros are moving towards enabling secure boot. On the plus side this secures the device from malware. By the way its not only Windows RT but also the iPad, Kindle, Xbox, Ps3 etc only allow signed code. So if you think there could be some anti-trust lawsuit, dream on.

    That speaks for itself.

    Friday, August 03, 2012 4:14 PM
  • You want to make an arrogant comment about teaching me HTML when I've designed more database driven websites than I care to remember.  Typical Noel.

    because you were being ignorant

    Yes, I am most certainly ignorant about how many web sites YOU'VE designed.  Just how do you suppose I should have known that, Einstein?  You demonstrated - in your very next post - what I initially perceived as an inability to quote things via <blockquote>, though it just turned out to be obstinance justified by laziness.

    Your credibility here is shot because you seem to want cause a fight more than have an adult discussion.  Would YOU listen to or be impressed by someone who writes as you do?

    And no, I won't be getting back to you on anything.  I don't work for you, and if you worked for me you'd be fired.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, August 03, 2012 4:26 PM
  • Whatever Noel, I'm a successful business owner and would never need to work for you.  Trust me, when it counts I know how to articulate and format a response.  I don't feel this board requires my best effort and wonder why I even bother.  You seem to be impressed by people that consistently make exaggerated or incorrect comments.  Look at the content of the discussion and tell me PMathan's post is "FUD", it's not even the correct usage of the term.  Anyone who wants to state facts here is shouted down or dismissed as having no credibility.

    I don't want to fight with people.  There are people here that think their opinions count more than verified facts.

    Friday, August 03, 2012 4:52 PM
  • I'm sorry for my part in any misunderstandings here.  My initial comment to you in this thread was intended to be constructive.

    I don't even know what the term "FUD" means, though I can imply some meaning from context.  I feel as though looking it up will do nothing to improve my life.  The only other use outside of forums I can ever recall is in a Far Side cartoon many years ago where a dog was trying to play a trick on a cat by labeling something (I can't recall what) as "CAT FUD".

    Congratulations on your business success.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, August 03, 2012 5:17 PM
  • Sorry if I misconstrued your efforts to be helpful.

    It's an acronym for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

    FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information.  Source: Wikipedia


    P.S.  Gary Larson is a genius.
    • Edited by dgobe Friday, August 03, 2012 5:23 PM
    Friday, August 03, 2012 5:21 PM
  • That is pure FUD.  Fear Uncertainty Doubt.   By definition.

    If Microsoft wants to infiltrate the firmware in our computers, computers that are manufactured by Independent Vendors, then Microsoft should develop their own brand Firmware and try to get  any  ODM/OEM to accept it.  They won't.  Nobody would.


    Secure Boot is part of the UEFI specification and is not Microsoft specific.  Support from open-source vendors will allow their OS's to utilize secure boot.

    Making UEFI Secure Boot Work With Open Platforms

    Again, using statements like "If Microsoft wants to infiltrate the firmware in our computers" is FUD by definition, using false information.

    I should clarify that I think hardware OEM's will not accept MS's implementation suggestions.  Why would I purchase a system if it will only run a Microsoft OS?  It's to the hardware providers disadvantage.  Therefore I think it is fear mongering to suggest otherwise.


    • Edited by dgobe Friday, August 03, 2012 6:06 PM
    Friday, August 03, 2012 5:54 PM
  • Windows Phone 7.x makers aren't being sued by Apple.  That's not the case in the Android camp.  Android is a nice phone OS but it's also a cybercriminal's wet dream.  Apps with excessive permissions, self-signed code, malware infested App Store, and app installation from unknown sources for starters.  That flexibility has tradeoffs when it comes to security.

    There is no reason why Apple should waste its money suing Windows Phone makers.  It is suing Samsung simply because Samsung is now its major threat with the Galaxy S2 and S3 sets.

    The "malware" story for Android is mostly hot air.  I do have an advanced Android phone and have noticed no specific issues.  I am sure that some are there.  Yes, there is a cost to openess.  But if one does not want to pay this cost (and run some risks) for an open and endlessly configurable platform, there is always Apple.  Why settle for a pale imitation (Windows Phone)?  Right?  It does not make sense.

    In any case, I only observed that Microsoft's attempt to "close the platform" has not, so far, been met with success.

    Friday, August 03, 2012 5:55 PM
  • Since people keep saying they are "as productive", or even "more productive" with Windows 8, I would love to see some videos of that in action.  It would be especially enlightening to see some accomplish the exact same task list on Windows 7 and Windows 8.  I am trying to keep an open mind with regard to Windows 8, but until I actually SEE at least the same level of productivity demonstrated in Windows 8, I will remain skeptical. There is also the chance that the viewer could learn new Windows 8 tricks.
    Friday, August 03, 2012 9:38 PM
  • Since people keep saying they are "as productive", or even "more productive" with Windows 8, I would love to see some videos of that in action.  It would be especially enlightening to see some accomplish the exact same task list on Windows 7 and Windows 8.  I am trying to keep an open mind with regard to Windows 8, but until I actually SEE at least the same level of productivity demonstrated in Windows 8, I will remain skeptical. There is also the chance that the viewer could learn new Windows 8 tricks.

    I do not think that there is any doubt that adoption of Win8 would be associated with loss of productivity because users would require substantial training to simply return to acceptable levels of usability.  In addition, any "usability" comparisons can be easily biased by the persons designing these comparisons.  Unless there is a totally unbiased approach, these comparisons are not worth much.

    Microsoft itself is not making any claims of increased productivity...because there are none.  Win8 is simply aimed at touch-based devices, in an effort to transform Windows into a portable system.  Microsoft is no longer interested in the enterprise (or is, at least, schizophrenic about it) and it is targeting the "consumer".  In the case of products targeted to consumers, productivity is not important or an issue than anybody worries about.

    Friday, August 03, 2012 10:55 PM
  • I just want to add my 2 cents as one of the youngest guys in any IT dept I walk into. I am optimistic about Metro, or whatever we are calling it now. I don't like what it is today, just like I didn't really like the restrictiveness of the iphone and then later windows phone 7 when I switched to those platforms over the years, but there are always updates, and everyone knows that no one puts a new version of a Windows client into any sort of real production before SP1, particularly one with a change this large. I look for some large fixes to the overall broken state of Metro by sp1 but really there is a lot to like about it too, again, not what is there today, but what is possible on top of it...

    I also fully expect that MS will back off of their app store lock and let non enterprise users install apps outside the store down the road, but I can also understand why they may be apprehensive about that at first because they want to define exactly what their new paradigm is going to be.

    Edit: I said overhaul the broken state of Metro, I meant enhance the immature state of Metro, it isn't broken, its just a 1.0...
    • Edited by agreer Saturday, August 04, 2012 12:25 AM
    Saturday, August 04, 2012 12:07 AM
  • I also fully expect that MS will back off of their app store lock and let non enterprise users install apps outside the store down the road, but I can also understand why they may be apprehensive about that at first because they want to define exactly what their new paradigm is going to be.

    The enterprise will be able to install (side load) Metro apps on Windows 8.
    Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:05 AM
  • I just want to add my 2 cents as one of the youngest guys in any IT dept I walk into. I am optimistic about Metro, or whatever we are calling it now. I don't like what it is today, just like I didn't really like the restrictiveness of the iphone and then later windows phone 7 when I switched to those platforms over the years, but there are always updates, and everyone knows that no one puts a new version of a Windows client into any sort of real production before SP1, particularly one with a change this large. I look for some large fixes to the overall broken state of Metro by sp1 but really there is a lot to like about it too, again, not what is there today, but what is possible on top of it...

    I also fully expect that MS will back off of their app store lock and let non enterprise users install apps outside the store down the road, but I can also understand why they may be apprehensive about that at first because they want to define exactly what their new paradigm is going to be.

    Edit: I said overhaul the broken state of Metro, I meant enhance the immature state of Metro, it isn't broken, its just a 1.0...

    Again, total confusion.  Metro is not just a GUI.  It may superficially appear so, but, in reality, it is the front end of a totally separate and new OS onto which a desktop mode that allows Win32-API-addressing programs to run is bolted on.  Thus, there are only two possible routes of evolution:

    (a) WinRT becomes the sole runtime of Windows and no Win32 programs can run (all previous Windows versions become incompatible).  This is, in fact, the total reality with the Windows RT tablets.  They do not include the Win32 underlay.The eradication of Win32 is the stated aim of Microsoft.  Thus, everything that requires Win32 (everything that has been traditionally Windows) has been termed "legacy".  If there is one single fact that one needs to digest about Windows 8, it is this one!!

    (b) WinRT fails utterly and Win32 continues to be the underpinning of Windows.

    To be honest, I am totally bemused with calls for the "evolution" of Metro.  WinRT/Metro is a mobile OS (just like iOS and Android) and by necessity in running in limited hardware, it does not multitask (not in a true form) or runs anything in a windowing interface.  Microsoft has even flattened all elements of the interface to preserve battery in mobile platforms.  If Microsoft "evolves" this OS to become a full multitasking, multiwindowing system, then Microsoft would need to devise another portable OS to take its place!!!  Why then retire Win32 (which is multitasking, multithreading and multiwindowin) only to build something similar after many years of effort and break compatibility in the process????  It does not make any sense.  Thus, WinRT would remain what it is, a portable OS with portable OS limitations.  WinRT would only evolve as portable hardware capabilities evolve.  Eventually, it would be the only "Windows" and even the name "Windows" will be retired (because it would be just too funny).

    Thus, there is not going to be any "overhaul"

    Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:06 AM
  • Again, total confusion.  Metro is not just a GUI.  It may superficially appear so, but, in reality, it is the front end of a totally separate and new OS onto which a desktop mode that allows Win32-API-addressing programs to run is bolted on.  Thus, there are only two possible routes of evolution:

    (a) WinRT becomes the sole runtime of Windows and no Win32 programs can run (all previous Windows versions become incompatible).  This is, in fact, the total reality with the Windows RT tablets.  They do not include the Win32 underlay.The eradication of Win32 is the stated aim of Microsoft.  Thus, everything that requires Win32 (everything that has been traditionally Windows) has been termed "legacy".  If there is one single fact that one needs to digest about Windows 8, it is this one!!

    (b) WinRT fails utterly and Win32 continues to be the underpinning of Windows.

    To be honest, I am totally bemused with calls for the "evolution" of Metro.  WinRT/Metro is a mobile OS (just like iOS and Android) and by necessity in running in limited hardware, it does not multitask (not in a true form) or runs anything in a windowing interface.  Microsoft has even flattened all elements of the interface to preserve battery in mobile platforms.  If Microsoft "evolves" this OS to become a full multitasking, multiwindowing system, then Microsoft would need to devise another portable OS to take its place!!!  Why then retire Win32 (which is multitasking, multithreading and multiwindowin) only to build something similar after many years of effort and break compatibility in the process????  It does not make any sense.  Thus, WinRT would remain what it is, a portable OS with portable OS limitations.  WinRT would only evolve as portable hardware capabilities evolve.  Eventually, it would be the only "Windows" and even the name "Windows" will be retired (because it would be just too funny).

    Thus, there is not going to be any "overhaul"

    OK, I'm normally nice but I'm tired of your rants about how WinRT is a freakin OS. WinRT is not an OS. Wikipedia defines it very well. 

    "Windows Runtime, or WinRT, is a cross-platform application architecture used on the Windows 8 operating system." - Wikipedia

    "WinRT is essentially a COM-based API, although relying on an enhanced COM. Because of its COM-like basis, WinRT allows relatively easy interfacing from multiple languages, just as COM does, but it's essentially an unmanaged, native API."

    "Examination of the runtime libraries reveals that they are built upon Win32 API. This is the same approach used by.NET."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RunTime

    Now this is not to be confused with Windows RT which is an special version of Windows 8 designed for ARM devices.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

    So not only is WinRT not an OS but they are built on Win32 API. Now STOP being stupid and spread the facts.



    Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:13 AM
  • "Examination of the runtime libraries reveals that they are built upon Win32 API. This is the same approach used by.NET."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RunTime

    Now this is not to be confused with Windows RT which is an special version of Windows 8 designed for ARM devices.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

    So not only is WinRT not an OS but they are built on Win32 API. Now STOP being stupid and spread the facts.

    Listen, the moment we start utilizing Wikipedia as a reference here, we are doomed.  Read your definitions.  They describe an OS. And then you must comprehend what the statement "built on Win32 API" actually means.  It may well mean that WinRT is based on elements that can be found in Win32.  It is, by no means, an extension of Win32.

    Now, do you have any doubt that if you write and compile a program for WinRT (and there is a WinRT SDK in Visual Studio 11), it would run in Windows RT (the ARM tablets), it would run in Win8 (but not on the desktop) and it would not run on Win7????  Any doubts on this???  This is actually what defines an OS!!!  WinRT can exist on its own.  That Microsoft is only utilizing it on ARM tablets does not mean that it cannot use it on Intel ones and eventually remove all what remains of Win32 (which is Sinofski's stated goal).

    I am hardly the only one to say that in reality Win8 is two OSes bolted together.  In fact, many, far more senior than me Windows commentators have been stating this for some time.  If you want to bury your head in the sand, well, this is your business,  I guess. 

    Saturday, August 04, 2012 3:30 AM
  • Listen, the moment we start utilizing Wikipedia as a reference here, we are doomed.  Read your definitions.  They describe an OS. And then you must comprehend what the statement "built on Win32 API" actually means.  It may well mean that WinRT is based on elements that can be found in Win32.  It is, by no means, an extension of Win32.

    Now, do you have any doubt that if you write and compile a program for WinRT (and there is a WinRT SDK in Visual Studio 11), it would run in Windows RT (the ARM tablets), it would run in Win8 (but not on the desktop) and it would not run on Win7????  Any doubts on this???  This is actually what defines an OS!!!  WinRT can exist on its own.  That Microsoft is only utilizing it on ARM tablets does not mean that it cannot use it on Intel ones and eventually remove all what remains of Win32 (which is Sinofski's stated goal).

    I am hardly the only one to say that in reality Win8 is two OSes bolted together.  In fact, many, far more senior than me Windows commentators have been stating this for some time.  If you want to bury your head in the sand, well, this is your business,  I guess. 

    First off there's nothing wrong with reference Wikipedia when the article is correct. Oh and BTW if you don't think it is then why don't you submit an edit? Try that and see how far you get.

    Hey in case you don't get it, you just described WinRT is the same as .NET or Java exist today. You cannot just write a Java or .NET app and expect it to run on any machine without the runtime. It's has nothing to do with the OS but everything to do with the runtime. You cannot run a .NET application without the runtime and you cannot run WinRT application without the WinRT (windows runtime). If and it's a if that will never happen but if Microsoft allow WinRT on Windows 7 then you could run WinRT application on Windows 7. Just like you could do it if the runtime was on OSX or Linux for that matter. Just like .NET application, if the runtime is available then you can run the application. Simple as that.



    Saturday, August 04, 2012 4:00 AM
  • Hi

    This thread is being locked due to slow load times.

    You can continue the discussion in Part 2 at the following link.

    I'm not just a PC "power user", its my WORK. Windows 8 is an insult - Part 2:
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/d009db57-54ed-4806-8e44-fcc4ea545493

    Regards

    Saturday, August 04, 2012 5:54 AM
    Moderator