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There needs to be a way to disable WDDM 1.1 acceleration and use the old wddm 1.0 gdi drawing. RRS feed

  • Question

  • There needs to be a way to disable WDDM 1.1 acceleration and use the old wddm 1.0 gdi drawing. There are many bugs in the drawing routines used in wddm 1.1 especially regarding line draw. You can see one of these bugs by going into regedit and dragging the resize edge of the navigation pane. Its also apparant in micrsoft word when drawing shapes, and in photoshop cs3 when trying to use the seleciton tool it does not refresh quick enough. When using wddm 1.0 drivers or using vista which doesn't use the acceleration these bugs do not occur. GDI acceleration needs to be able to be disabled if necessary, this was available with all the previous drivers that had gdi acceleration.

     

    Are you using a directx 10 graphics card? This occurs on almost all wddm 1.1 drivers. 

    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:03 PM

All replies

  • This must be something in your system.  I do not have any of the symptoms you cite on my windows 7 Professional x64 system.
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    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:22 PM
  • It occurs on all systems using wddm 1.1 drivers. Drag the size handle beck and forth forth you'll see it doesn;t update and s invisible if done too fast. This also occur in any application that uses line draw for selection dragging such as flash creative suite or when you draw a rectangle in word the edge that you are dragging towards will flicker or not be visible until the motion has ended. Another good example is to use the selction rectangle in paint and drag it around and you'll see it flickers and soemtimes refeshes much slower than it does on wddm 1.0. 
    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:32 PM
  • I have tried all your examples above and I do not get the symptoms you describe at all!
    Please remember to click “Mark as Answer” on the post that helps you, and to click “Unmark as Answer” if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread. ”
    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:24 PM
  • Install an older Vista WDM1.0 driver.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:31 PM
  • Install an older Vista WDM1.0 driver.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    The problem with that is some newer devices only have wddm 1.1 drivers because vista can use them too. The only difference is that vista still uses software to render the gdi.
    Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:56 PM
  • Contact the Microsoft support to fix GDI bugs, issues.
    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Thursday, September 30, 2010 10:53 AM
  • Visit Adobe support. CS3 is not supported in Windows 7. It may be causing your problems. CS4 and 5 are supported.
    Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:45 AM
  • It occurs in cs4 as well when open gl is not enabled. Its a problem with gdi.
    Thursday, September 30, 2010 1:27 PM
  • It occurs in cs4 as well when open gl is not enabled. Its a problem with gdi.

    If it's a problem with GDI then why aren't more people reporting problems?  Usually when there is a problem like this there are lots of people posting about it, but there aren't.
    Please remember to click “Mark as Answer” on the post that helps you, and to click “Unmark as Answer” if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread. ”
    Thursday, September 30, 2010 4:12 PM
  • It occurs in cs4 as well when open gl is not enabled. Its a problem with gdi.


    That tells me there is a driver problem. Try another video card in the off chance that the card is failing.

     


    Vote if answered or helpful, I am running for Office (joke)!

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Hardcore Games | Vegan | PC Reviews

    Its not the graphics card. If you go to a store with all the machines out you can test it on all of them. What the bug looks like is line draw operations are not drawn every frame like they were in wddm 1.0 when dwm is enabled. This occurs when the movement of the line per frame is larger than width of the line so if a line moves one frame it will show fine. If it moves more in that frame it is not drawn. On thicker lines whetever parts of the two frames that overlapped will draw but the other parts will be absent. Drag the navigation panes handle in regedit back and forth back and forth fastly and you'll see that the output is not solid. Only certain frames are visible and for whenever the motion is fast the line is not drawn.

    Heres two videos that show how it looks on wddm 1.0 and the bug in wddm 1.1

    WDDM 1.0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGWzq87gHXs

    WDDM 1.1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxqkBV4To4

     

    Friday, October 1, 2010 6:46 PM
  • It occurs in cs4 as well when open gl is not enabled. Its a problem with gdi.


    That tells me there is a driver problem. Try another video card in the off chance that the card is failing.

     


    Vote if answered or helpful, I am running for Office (joke)!

    Developer | Windows IT | Chess | Economics | Hardcore Games | Vegan | PC Reviews

    Its not the graphics card. If you go to a store with all the machines out you can test it on all of them. What the bug looks like is line draw operations are not drawn every frame like they were in wddm 1.0 when dwm is enabled. This occurs when the movement of the line per frame is larger than width of the line so if a line moves one frame it will show fine. If it moves more in that frame it is not drawn. On thicker lines whetever parts of the two frames that overlapped will draw but the other parts will be absent. Drag the navigation panes handle in regedit back and forth back and forth fastly and you'll see that the output is not solid. Only certain frames are visible and for whenever the motion is fast the line is not drawn.

    Heres two videos that show how it looks on wddm 1.0 and the bug in wddm 1.1

    WDDM 1.0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGWzq87gHXs

    WDDM 1.1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxqkBV4To4

     


    Why don't you tell us exactly what hardware you are getting this on?

    I have three systems with Windows 7 x64 and ATI HD 5750 cards.  None of my three systems exhibit the symptoms you show in your YouTube video and I replcated your actions exactly as you show them.


    Please remember to click “Mark as Answer” on the post that helps you, and to click “Unmark as Answer” if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread. ”
    Friday, October 1, 2010 7:58 PM
  • Searching WDDM 1.1 issues in Microsoft support resulted in two hotfixes addressing specific situations. Perhaps you should try the Windows 7 SP1 beta.

    1. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2013905 Jan 2010

    2. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2102850/en-US Aug 2010

    Most are a DX9 card, others are caused by a third party application.

    What hardware are you using?

    • Proposed as answer by Andre.Ziegler Saturday, October 2, 2010 1:01 PM
    Friday, October 1, 2010 8:56 PM
  • Its not the graphics card. If you go to a store with all the machines out you can test it on all of them. What the bug looks like is line draw operations are not drawn every frame like they were in wddm 1.0 when dwm is enabled. This occurs when the movement of the line per frame is larger than width of the line so if a line moves one frame it will show fine. If it moves more in that frame it is not drawn. On thicker lines whetever parts of the two frames that overlapped will draw but the other parts will be absent. Drag the navigation panes handle in regedit back and forth back and forth fastly and you'll see that the output is not solid. Only certain frames are visible and for whenever the motion is fast the line is not drawn.

    Heres two videos that show how it looks on wddm 1.0 and the bug in wddm 1.1

    WDDM 1.0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGWzq87gHXs

    WDDM 1.1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxqkBV4To4

    This happens because WDDM1.1 doesn't store the data in the System RAM like it is with WDDM1.0:

    WDDM1.0:

     

    WDDM1.1:

    I think this is the cause of your "issue".

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering-windows-7-for-graphics-performance.aspx


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Friday, October 1, 2010 9:34 PM
  • Its not the graphics card. If you go to a store with all the machines out you can test it on all of them. What the bug looks like is line draw operations are not drawn every frame like they were in wddm 1.0 when dwm is enabled. This occurs when the movement of the line per frame is larger than width of the line so if a line moves one frame it will show fine. If it moves more in that frame it is not drawn. On thicker lines whetever parts of the two frames that overlapped will draw but the other parts will be absent. Drag the navigation panes handle in regedit back and forth back and forth fastly and you'll see that the output is not solid. Only certain frames are visible and for whenever the motion is fast the line is not drawn.

    Heres two videos that show how it looks on wddm 1.0 and the bug in wddm 1.1

    WDDM 1.0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGWzq87gHXs

    WDDM 1.1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxqkBV4To4

    This happens because WDDM1.1 doesn't store the data in the System RAM like it is with WDDM1.0:

    WDDM1.0:

     

    WDDM1.1:

    I think this is the cause of your "issue".

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering-windows-7-for-graphics-performance.aspx


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Yes, there needs to be a way to revert back to software without installing a wddm 1.0 driver because most of them are old and some newer devices don;t have wddm 1.0 available. You can see a more severe case of this bug in microsoft publisher with the drag selection tool on there. It flickers and the edge is missing but on my dx9 wddm 1.0 system the selection rectangle stays solid and works properly.
    Friday, October 1, 2010 11:39 PM
  • Its the camera that had a slow framerate not the computer. The wddm 1.1 system has a 9600m GT and the wddm 1.0 has a 7950gt. Both are capable of running aero at full 60fps and all times including during flip3d.
    Saturday, October 2, 2010 12:03 AM
  • both these run aero at full speed on both windows 7 and windows vista. The 7950gt only has wddm 1.0 drivers since its a directx 9 and thats why it works because it doesn't acceleration gdi. The 9600m gt accelerates gdi when using a wddm 1.1 driver and is running windows 7. On vista it can use a wddm 1.1 driver but it doesn;t accelerate gdi, but uses wddm 1.1 for direct2d and directwrite still. What should be available in windows 7 is to run wddm 1.1 gdi in software like it is in vista with wddm 1.1 and in windows 7 with wddm 1.0 drivers.
    Saturday, October 2, 2010 3:47 AM
  • Searching WDDM 1.1 issues in Microsoft support resulted in two hotfixes addressing specific situations. Perhaps you should try the Windows 7 SP1 beta.

     

    2. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2102850/en-US  Aug 2010

    Have you tried this fix? This fix may fix it.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Saturday, October 2, 2010 1:00 PM
  • Its not the drivers or motherboard. This occurs on all machines, maybe ati made a workaround in their drivers recently which is why some work now, but Intel and nvidia cards all suffer from this bug. You can go to any local store with demo machines and it occurs on all of them.
    Saturday, October 2, 2010 3:35 PM
  • You can go to any local store with demo machines and it occurs on all of them.
    have you tried the hotfix?

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Saturday, October 2, 2010 10:21 PM
  • You can go to any local store with demo machines and it occurs on all of them.
    have you tried the hotfix?

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Yes i have tried the hotfix. It did not fix the problem. Other than this issue I am happy with windows 7, and the advantages off wddm 1.1 are obvious, however their should still be a way to disable acceleration so that the output isn't dependent on the driver in use.
    Sunday, October 3, 2010 6:48 PM
  • Contact the Microsoft support about this.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Sunday, October 3, 2010 8:52 PM
  • I have a way to prove the bug using flash. Heres an swf with just a line box that resizes at 60fps which is the refresh rate of most screens. When the screen refresh rate and the line draw are done at the same speed the changes aren't always drawn every frame. http://www.mediafire.com/?7k3txk3obk7x72y

    This will draw correctly on wddm 1.1 if aero is off and will draw correctly on wddm 1.0 both with aero on and off.

    Sunday, October 10, 2010 6:13 PM
  • Hi everyone,

    We took a look at this in support and from all the cases we've been able to find around this sort of problem, the behavior appears to be hardware-specific.  The problem seems most likely to happen with older card and driver families from multiple hardware vendors and can manifest in different ways depending on the capabilities of the hardware/driver in use.

    If you can list out the exact hardware specs where you're seeing problems, we might be able to look further into ths and see if anyone has reported similar issues on that hardware to support previously, and whether any workarounds or fixes are available.  Ultimately however this is something that would need to be reported to the OEMs, so that they can troubleshoot why it occurs on their hardware, and then engage Microsoft with that information.

    Thanks


    David Beach - Microsoft Online Community Support
    Friday, October 15, 2010 7:33 PM
  • Its seems to occur on nvidia cards the worse and on some intel cards. The latest ati drivers seemed to have remove most of the problem although some cards it still occurs on. The machine I own it occurs on has a 9600m gt.
    Wednesday, November 3, 2010 6:09 PM
  • Its seems to occur on nvidia cards the worse and on some intel cards. The latest ati drivers seemed to have remove most of the problem although some cards it still occurs on. The machine I own it occurs on has a 9600m gt.

    Well, you finally admitted this is not a widespread Windows 7 problem, but generally a problem with some nVidia and some Intel video cards.  So, your earlier statement "It occurs on all systems using wddm 1.1 drivers." is somewhat of an exaggeration?
    Please remember to click “Mark as Answer” on the post that helps you, and to click “Unmark as Answer” if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread. ”
    Wednesday, November 3, 2010 9:12 PM
  • XP uses XPDM driver model. And you can use WDDM1.0 drivers in Windows 7 , too. No need to propose this confusing post an answer, Vegan!

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/
    Wednesday, November 3, 2010 11:09 PM
  • XP uses WDM, Vista is WDDM 1, 7 is WDDM 1.1

    all video cards on a Windows 7 machine are using WDDM 1.1 drivers regardless of the shader model they might be.

     


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    Absolutely not true, cards that do not support directx 10 will use wddm 1.0 drivers. WDDM 1.1 are compatible with windows vista as well they just use software GDI rendering. 

    Also it still occurs to a point on the ati cards. When you use the rectangle tool in office 2007, maybe 2010 if they still use line draw for the drawing you'll get an obnoxius flickering not present on wddm 1.0 drivers or wddm 1.1 drivers in vista. All i ask is that there is a way to enable the legacy wddm 1.0 software drawing regardless of the driver module used as that work 100% without bugs regardless of which hardware used.

    Thursday, November 4, 2010 3:27 AM
  • This issue still exists on cards utilising wddm 1.1 drivers. Line draw operations aren't properly drawn and the refresh rate of certain operations isn't sync to the refresh rate when aero is on. ON wddm 1.0 cards (mostly older dx9 cards that don't have wddm 1.1)  it is synced properly and line draw operation are drawn on each frame properly as they behave the same way as vista does drawing in cpu. There needs to be a way to turn off the acceleration for wddm 1.1 drivers and draw the vista way.
    Friday, March 18, 2011 9:25 PM
  • does it happen in Win7 Sp1, too?

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Want to install RSAT on Windows 7 Sp1? Check my HowTo: http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=150221
    Friday, March 18, 2011 9:29 PM
  • yes it still occurs. I think it has to do with the fact that most gdi operations are accelerated but line draw is not but it doesn't keep the second copy in ram which is why it doesn't draw properly causing flickering and frames where it doesn't draw.
    Friday, March 18, 2011 9:38 PM
  • Another way to see this problem is by resizing services.msc window.

    And in Windows Explorer, in the address bar type in C:, then type \ so the autocomplete list will show. There is a slight flicker, and if your computer doesn't draw it fast enough, you will a split second of black flashing before drawing the autocomplete box.

    I've tried on a desktop with an i5-2400 and HD4870 as well as on a laptop with i5-2410M and GT520M with the same results.

     

    I can't believe you guys can't reproduce this..

    Ever since I switched from a WDDM 1.0 card to a WDDM 1.1 card 1.5 years ago I've been experiencing this problem on Windows 7. I've learnt to live with it, but it gets kinda annoying at times.
    Saturday, July 16, 2011 2:26 AM
  • My HD4870 is good enough to run all current games in at least medium quality, but it can't render a box fast enough?
    Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:07 PM
  • The HD4870 is a good GPU and I suggest checkwith with AMD often to make sure the drivers are updated regularly.

    NVIDIA has taken to putting drivers on Windows update

     


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    My page on Video Card Problems is now my most popular landing page. See my gaming site for game reviews etc.

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    These issues occur on the latest drivers. It makes photoshop without using opengl mode pretty unusable as the line draw doesn't work properly. I now have a gtx460 soc and it still has these problems. This is with a phenom II 965. On vista these issues don't occur because it uses the wddm 1.0 drawing routines even with wddm 1.1 drivers. Windows 7 needs a way to make the driver fallback to the 1.0 gdi handling like vista does. It can;t be hard to code as the routines already exist. A slider like the one that existed with xddm drivers for acceleration level would work fine.
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:15 PM
  • I wasn't referring to opengl mode. I was referring to when you don't use it and use the old gdi mode things don't draw properly. Its even worse in CS3 as there is no opengl mode. The selection rectangle tools does not draw properly at all. 
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 6:21 PM
  • I was able to induce that behaviour with an old nvidia card I had that was not certified for Windows 7.  My new beefy nvidia card with Windows 7 works fine no issues.  I would suggest moving on to a new video card.  This look like a distinct "old hardware" issue.
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 6:48 PM
  • It happens on my gtx 460 on my laptops 9600m gt. It does not happen on my 7950gtx which is a dx9 card so it only has wddm 1.0. This happens on cards that use wddm 1.1 drivers. There is a problem with the way wddm 1.1 acceleration handles line draw operations. Its a problem in the standard not in the drivers. Its actually catrds that explicitly support windows 7 that are the issue. Any card that doesn't support wddm 1.1 and only supports 1.0 will function perferctly. Hence why it works on the old 7950gtx and the fx5200.
    Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:07 PM
  • Which is why your FX5200 works fine with Aero.


    The problem is with the removal of the buffer in WDDM 1.1. With my old 7900GS which didn't support WDDM 1.1, I didn't have any draw issues with Windows 7. When I upgraded to HD4870 however, the problems surfaced.

     

    I just upgraded to a HD5850 yesterday with the same issues.

     

    There is indeed a performance issue with WDDM 1.1 but I wonder why this is not being addressed. It wouldn't hurt to have an option to have buffering enabled once again, which I believe would address the problem. I mean, today's graphic cards have 1GB of RAM on average.

    Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:24 PM
  • This is not a installation issue. This occurs on systems that use wddm 1.1 acceleration. I can confirm the problem on all the machines at the local best buy as well. 
    Saturday, August 6, 2011 6:36 PM
  • Been there, done that.

     

    I have two totally new systems exhibiting this problem, so to summarise.

    Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:55 AM
  • This is still a problem even in windows 10. It really needs to be fixed, especially now its no longer possible to disable desktop composition. Occurs with wddm 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, and 2.0. The only wddm version it doesn't occur is 1.0 which doesn't accelerate GDI.
    Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:55 PM
  • This is still a problem even in windows 10. It really needs to be fixed, especially now its no longer possible to disable desktop composition. Occurs with wddm 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, and 2.0. The only wddm version it doesn't occur is 1.0 which doesn't accelerate GDI.

    If it's still a problem in Windows 10 then you need to initiate a thread in the appropriate Windows 10 IT Pro category forums and perhaps someone will take notice.

    No one is going to take note in this Windows 7 forum because nothing is being developed for Windows 7!!

      

    Please remember to click “Mark as Answer” on the post that helps you, and to click “Unmark as Answer” if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread. ”

    Wednesday, April 6, 2016 6:02 PM