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Why is (en-us) being placed in the wiki? RRS feed

  • Question

  • I've noticed that on some wiki posts people have put an (en-us) on the back side.  Is there a reason for this?
    Monday, February 20, 2012 10:07 PM

Answers

  • I forget the tag cloud link, here you go: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/tags/default.aspx

    tony soper

    • Marked as answer by tonysoper_MSFT Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:43 PM
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:55 PM

All replies

  • Your most precise answer will come from the users who are doing this activity. Feel free to contact them. I you share your discussion here, we can all learn. However, looking at the recent activity, it seems that the folks translating articles into other languages are doing this to help order/sort the articles by language. Seems to add value, IMO. What are your thoughts about it?


    tony soper

    Monday, February 20, 2012 11:08 PM
  • http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1912.sbs-2011-iv-tweaking-the-server.aspx

    How do I contact them?  We don't have private messaging?  It's the only one that this has been done to, so it kinda doesn't make any sense?

    I see in another venue that Ed Price put it on "Just adding tags. I started the "Multi Language Wiki Articles" tag so that we can track what's been hand-translated into multiple languages. Thanks!"  But that particular one is a part of a series of wiki posts and doesn't have a translated version so I'm kinda scratching my head.

    Also is this documented somewhere?

    Last but not least after the recent update, where's the tag cloud?

    Monday, February 20, 2012 11:58 PM
  • In addition to what Tony said...
    A few active Wiki users have been identifying articles worthy of being available into multiple languages and came up with a tagging scheme for these:
    - a "Multi Language Wiki Articles" Tag
    - an extension of the "non-English Language Titles guidelines" to make English just another language and also apply that tagging principle (in the title as well as using "en-us" as a keyword)
    It's a great way for anyone interested in that effort to easily identify such articles and figure what languages are already available and which could be created.
    Whether it makes sense to tag every single English article is open question for the community...

    Bruno

    Monday, February 20, 2012 11:59 PM
  • http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1912.sbs-2011-iv-tweaking-the-server.aspx

    How do I contact them?  We don't have private messaging?  It's the only one that this has been done to, so it kinda doesn't make any sense?

    I see in another venue that Ed Price put it on "Just adding tags. I started the "Multi Language Wiki Articles" tag so that we can track what's been hand-translated into multiple languages. Thanks!"  But that particular one is a part of a series of wiki posts and doesn't have a translated version so I'm kinda scratching my head.

    Also is this documented somewhere?

    Last but not least after the recent update, where's the tag cloud?

    I clicked your link. I didn't see the "Multi Language Wiki Articles" tag in your link. (Nor did I add it in that article.)

    Do you have another example? Thanks! 


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)


    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:47 PM
    Owner
  • That's the thing, it wasn't you that did it, that's why I was scratching my head.  I removed it as there isn't another translation.
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:52 PM
  • I forget the tag cloud link, here you go: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/tags/default.aspx

    tony soper

    • Marked as answer by tonysoper_MSFT Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:43 PM
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:55 PM
  • That's the thing, it wasn't you that did it, that's why I was scratching my head.  I removed it as there isn't another translation.

    Thanks for doing that. Confused people. =^)

    I've seen folks copy and paste tags before from similar articles where they likely don't know that the tag means something specific and that it doesn't apply to all articles.


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)


    Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:50 PM
    Owner

  • - an extension of the "non-English Language Titles guidelines" to make English just another language and also apply that tagging principle (in the title as well as using "en-us" as a keyword)
    It's a great way for anyone interested in that effort to easily identify such articles and figure what languages are already available and which could be created.  

    Greetings all,

    @Bruno, the quoted comment above is the correct interpretation and purpose - it certainly wasn't to confuse anyone.

    Last weekend I modified all of the articles tagged with SharePoint and PowerShell to include en-US in the title and tags. These are the parts of the Wiki that I generally frequent. @Susan, the reason the http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1912.sbs-2011-iv-tweaking-the-server.aspx article was changed and the others were not is that this article is tagged with "SharePoint".

    For browsability and filtering purposes, I believe it is a good information management practice to indicate the language in articles, regardless of the language, as the Wiki is multilingual.

    This exercise was not related to whether article has a translation or is a candidate for a translation. The following is a short list of objectives and benefits related to adding the language code to an article titles and tags:

    • Embrace the fact that the Wiki is multilingual. It is not an English only Wiki and more non-English articles are being posted all the time
    • Promote consistency in how all articles indicate the language in which it was written, regardless of the language 
    • When an individual is browsing articles after clicking on a single tag link, the language of an article can be easily identified in the result set based on the language code as indicated in the article title
      • In addition to this, even today, if an individual clicks on the en-US link in the tag cloud, the result set is not reflective of all articles written in English which in my opinion is still an issue. If I click on the pt-BR link in the tag cloud for example, the result set is reflective of the articles written in Portuguese (I can't with accuracy say all, however I am comfortable in suggesting that it is very close to all).
    • Provide a mechanism through which individuals can use multiple tags to filter articles based on a language and a topic. For example, an individual can easily find all articles written in English targeting SharePoint 2010: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/tags/en_2D00_US/SharePoint+2010/default.aspx
      • This type of tag filtering was already available for all other languages except for English due to the exclusion of en-US in article tags. 

    I realize that everyone may not agree that adding en-US to article titles and tags is necessary as the majority of articles are written in English. I believe that since the Wiki is used by individuals of multiple languages, an easy and consistent way of describing and presenting the language of each article should exist. In my opinion, even though a Wiki by nature is unstructured data, it is a good information management practice to make a best attempt at creating structure, where possible, when complete structure does not exist. Given the tools and options that the Wiki provides, the article titles and tags are really the only thing we can use to implement structure based on topic and language (of course other than articles linking to other articles).

    Should anyone wish to contact me offline to discuss, please feel free to do so at any time by visiting my MSDN/TechNet Profile, clicking on the link to my website and filling out the "Contact Me" form - I'd prefer not to post my email address in a public forum.

    Kind regards,

    Craig


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    Friday, February 24, 2012 7:44 PM
  • I'm not sure that (en-us) needs to be placed in each title.  Let me give my reasons. 

    Firstly in the wiki, it doesn't just end up in the url, it ends up in the title of the post.  In the recent redo where the font of the title of the post is a large Metro style font, I've been trying to keep the titles of the wikis smaller to be able to be more readable.

    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2677528/en-us?sd=rss&spid=548  The title of the KB (take that one for example) doesn't have en-us in there, it's merely a reference, a key element that makes the KB show up in the language that the person wants it to be in.  If this was an additive tag that could be added to wiki posts to make them language specific I think it would make more sense. 

    Tags are okay.  As part of the title, though, and that's what I was ultimately objecting to, I think that needs to be discussed in the wiki council and kicked around a bit more.

    Friday, February 24, 2012 10:04 PM
  • I'm not sure that (en-us) needs to be placed in each title.  Let me give my reasons. 

    Firstly in the wiki, it doesn't just end up in the url, it ends up in the title of the post.  In the recent redo where the font of the title of the post is a large Metro style font, I've been trying to keep the titles of the wikis smaller to be able to be more readable.

    http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2677528/en-us?sd=rss&spid=548  The title of the KB (take that one for example) doesn't have en-us in there, it's merely a reference, a key element that makes the KB show up in the language that the person wants it to be in.  If this was an additive tag that could be added to wiki posts to make them language specific I think it would make more sense. 

    Tags are okay.  As part of the title, though, and that's what I was ultimately objecting to, I think that needs to be discussed in the wiki council and kicked around a bit more.

    Agreed. I forwarded on to council members. You're an MVP and active on the Wiki. Have you thought of being part of the council (there are two of them, a council and an advisor's team)?

    Thanks!


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)

    Friday, February 24, 2012 10:15 PM
    Owner
  • Susan/Ed,

    Thanks for engaging in further conversation on this topic.

    I do agree with Susan with regards to "If this was an additive tag that could be added to wiki posts to make them language specific I think it would make more sense". If for example, perhaps when posting an article there was some sort of menu where the author would "Select the article language", I think this type of approach would be best and the "system" itself could achieve objectives and benefits I outlined above, as determined and agreed upon by the greater community and the council of course. Overall, if the "system" supported automatically tagging an article and perhaps have some sort of small language indicator around/near the article title as well given that the Wiki is not setup in the same way as the KB system is, this would be perfect. 

    Surely there is more discussion required, and this is certainly something for the community and council to ponder. At this stage, I feel I've made my point and feel comfortable with how this conversation is progressing.

    As this discussion has now been forwarded to the council members, until the a community based conclusion reached on how to best treat article titles, tags and any new potential "system" based functionality with regards to the language, I'll refrain from making anymore title specific changes. This is the right thing to do based on the feedback in this forums post pending review from the council. With this said I, will continue to add the en-US tag to articles where it was omitted by the author. This way filtering articles by language will still be possible.

    Does this approach work (i.e. adding the language only to the tags and not the title) moving forward for you (@Susan/@Ed/anyone else)? Just looking for consensus. I want to add value to the Wiki as does everyone else. I truly believe language filtering provides the most additional value based on my objectives and benefits, and wish to make sure others are on board with how this is done. We're all on the same team!

    Please let me know what you think.

    Cheers,

    Craig


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    Friday, February 24, 2012 10:45 PM
  • As a tag makes sense to me.  It's just the title part that was throwing me off.
    Friday, February 24, 2012 10:52 PM
  • @Susan - Great! I am glad we had this chat. 

    @Ed - does the tag approach work for you?


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    Friday, February 24, 2012 10:57 PM
  • @Susan - Great! I am glad we had this chat. 

    @Ed - does the tag approach work for you?


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    My take is that I agree that it doesn't belong in the title.

    I don't mind the "en-US" tag.

    Specifically, I use the "Multi Language Wiki Article" tag for all the articles that are available in one or more languages: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/tags/Multi+Language+Wiki+Articles/default.aspx 

    Thanks!


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)


    Friday, February 24, 2012 11:14 PM
    Owner
  • Thanks for the feedback Ed. 

    I sincerely appreciate everyone's time. I would be happy to provide formalized thoughts if called upon to do so for the councils consideration and discussion of language support options within the Wiki.

    Have a great weekend!

    Cheers,

    Craig


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    Friday, February 24, 2012 11:49 PM
  • In my opinion, even though a Wiki by nature is unstructured data, it is a good information management practice to make a best attempt at creating structure, where possible, when complete structure does not exist.

    I probably couldn't say better. +100500.

    And speaking about the title--here are the reasons. Originally the rule was invented for non-English articles and it mainly served two purposes.

    1. To make sure the title does not "steal" the URL. Hopefully this explanation is clear enough but if it doesn't make sense for you I can describe little bit further.
    2. To help international users understand what the article is. I mean, if you don't speak the language it's probably a good idea at least to recognize what the language is. So that you can go to online tranlsator or know what to expect from the author. Hopefully this makes sense as well.

    Originally we didn't do the same for English articles since it was kinda "default" language that everyone is supposed to understand. If we assume that's not true and there might be Wiki users who don't speak English--then probably it's worthy to add up to the title. I personally don't believe that a long title hurts.

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:28 PM
  • In my opinion, even though a Wiki by nature is unstructured data, it is a good information management practice to make a best attempt at creating structure, where possible, when complete structure does not exist.

    I probably couldn't say better. +100500.

    And speaking about the title--here are the reasons. Originally the rule was invented for non-English articles and it mainly served two purposes.

    1. To make sure the title does not "steal" the URL. Hopefully this explanation is clear enough but if it doesn't make sense for you I can describe little bit further.
    2. To help international users understand what the article is. I mean, if you don't speak the language it's probably a good idea at least to recognize what the language is. So that you can go to online tranlsator or know what to expect from the author. Hopefully this makes sense as well.

    Originally we didn't do the same for English articles since it was kinda "default" language that everyone is supposed to understand. If we assume that's not true and there might be Wiki users who don't speak English--then probably it's worthy to add up to the title. I personally don't believe that a long title hurts.

    One thing is I don't think the reasoning was ever that English was the default language that everyone was supposed to understand. That would be pretty vain, I think. =^)

    The reasoning was more that "this is the English version of the Wiki." We don't have a non-English yet (keyword is "yet"), and so we need to put the non-English articles in the English Wiki for now and make a quick and easy way for us to identify them and eventually move them into their own Wiki. That was the original reasoning and why we didn't include "en-US" on the thousands of English Wiki articles in the English Wiki.

     

    But I do see two reasons to include the code in the title:

    1 - What you just said. People who don't speak English would then be able to identify the language.

    2 - Makes it easier to search just for English articles. However, the tag solution would also work for this.

     

    Great discussion!


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)


    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:40 AM
    Owner
  • If there was a way to make it less large and make the en-us a smaller less obtrusive font I might have less of an objection.  But I need the real estate of (en-us) for the meat of the title.  There isn't (en-us) or other English speaking title branding in wikipedia which I deem to be the gold standard of wikidom.  (en-us) is merely a leftover from the Microsoft KB articles.

    If there was a way to put the en-us in the url without putting in the Title of the article, bring it on.  But right now we can't so it's not meeting my standard of good and sustainable reasons to tag things. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    Note that the title is Microsoft in both articles.  It's just the url that flags the difference. 

    Tags that we have to remember to put in are not sustainable in the long run (in my opinion).

    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:47 AM
  • Ed - you mention that there isn't a non-English wiki "yet". If there were wiki's for other languages (similar to Wikipedia), problem solved and there would be no need for the language to be in the title and likely not in the tags either. This would be a clean and sustainable long term solution.


    Senior Systems Engineer / SharePoint Architect | MSDN Profile | Blog | Twitter
    Microsoft Community Contributor Award 2011 Recipient

    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:58 AM
  • If there was a way to make it less large and make the en-us a smaller less obtrusive font I might have less of an objection.  But I need the real estate of (en-us) for the meat of the title.  There isn't (en-us) or other English speaking title branding in wikipedia which I deem to be the gold standard of wikidom.  (en-us) is merely a leftover from the Microsoft KB articles.

    If there was a way to put the en-us in the url without putting in the Title of the article, bring it on.  But right now we can't so it's not meeting my standard of good and sustainable reasons to tag things. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    Note that the title is Microsoft in both articles.  It's just the url that flags the difference. 

    Tags that we have to remember to put in are not sustainable in the long run (in my opinion).

    Yes, and we hope to model after their solution. Notice the left section called "Languages" -- that's every language version that the article is translated in. If you click one of those, then you "enter" a different language version/instance of Wikipedia.

     

    Microsoft has a lot of languages. But see how this article doesn't have as many because the communities haven't translated it yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria_at_the_2008_Summer_Paralympics

     

    Their Brazil/Portuguese community isn't as vibrant as ours is (looks like they're mostly in Europe).


    Ed Price (a.k.a User Ed), SQL Server Experience Program Manager (Blog, Twitter, Wiki)




    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:10 AM
    Owner
  • If there was a way to put the en-us in the url without putting in the Title of the article, bring it on.  But right now we can't so it's not meeting my standard of good and sustainable reasons to tag things. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

    Note that the title is Microsoft in both articles.  It's just the url that flags the difference.

    This feature called “Interwiki” if I'm not mistaken. Unfortunately our platform doesn't have anything like this. Bummer.

    (And we also don't have a technical solution to make some portions of the title smaller than the other).

    What we can do though are namespaces. Multiple Wikis—one per language. And this is under developement as we speak.

    So, long-term the language marks (both tags and titiles) will pass away as soon as we migrate every localized page into it's respective language Wiki. (We didin't decide how exactly we will do it, yet). But the existing marks will help us greatly to decide what to migrate and what to leave. Yes, ultimately the “articles” namespace will probably be renamed to “en-us” since English is just a language, not a default language any more.

    Short terms there are some goals of those marks so they still make sense from my perspective.

    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:38 AM