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How do I remove Metro in Windows 8 in the Consumer Preview and bring back the Start Menu? Part 1 RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • [rant]I hate METRO!

    It 's too cluttered, it hides stuff, it doesn't make any sense and I can't work it!

    It's not like I'm used to only one style of doing things. I've used every Windows 3.1- 8, (except for the NT 3.51 and 4.0) I've used OS9, I've used OSX, I've used KDE3, KDE4, Gnome2, (haven't tried Gnome 3 yet) Unity, GNUStep, Openbox and the only UIs I've hated was OS9, KDE4 and Metro! Windows Vista and and 7's Aero was OK and I liked the dockbar, XP was good, but my favorite UIs are the ones that look like an ugly 90's Workstations like Win3.1, Openbox, Gnome2, Win9x/XP with themes, GNUStep (In order of most favorable first)

    So, I know what I want in an OS. I want my windows installation to look ugly, the eye candy in modern desktops is distracting and the UI gets in the way.

    I hate Metro so much, If I bought a laptop with Win 8 Pre-installed (System 76 sucks) and I couldn't turn of Metro, I'll install Crunchbang if the UEFI doesn't lock it down, force the OEM to refund the OS and donate my refund to the ReactOS Project![/rant]

    Sorry about that long rant, I just needed to vent and most of my friends hate Metro too.

    Anyway, Is there a way to remove Metro and bring back the Start Menu? The Registry tweak that worked in the Developer Preview doesn't work in the Consumer Preview anymore... As you can see, It caused a lot of frustration...


    Friday, March 2, 2012 5:05 AM

All replies

  •  No, You cannot revert the Start Screen to the Start menu in Windows 8 Consumer Preview. As you mentioned, the registry setting that existed in the Developer Preview no longer works in the Consumer Preview.

    However, I will forward your feedback to the product group.


    ­Mike Stephens [MSFT] | Support Escalation Engineer | Windows Distributed Systems | Charlotte, NC USA

    Friday, March 2, 2012 5:29 AM
  • Good, because I wasn't joking about the refund and using the refund money to donate to a competing binary compatible NT5.1 Clone.
    Friday, March 2, 2012 5:50 AM
  • I hate Metro too. Actually I haven't heard anyone to like the new Windows interface.


    Andrei Ungureanu

    www.winadmin.ro


    Monday, March 5, 2012 2:20 PM
  •  ... the registry setting that existed in the Developer Preview no longer works in the Consumer Preview.

    ­Mike Stephens [MSFT] | Support Escalation Engineer | Windows Distributed Systems | Charlotte, NC USA

    I doubt we would have used this registry setting in our coprorate environment (if we ever switch to Win8), but I sure would have used this registry setting at home if I ever were to convert after Win8 gets released.  It's disappointing to hear it doesn't work anymore, as it was really nice having the option to run Aero interface and Start Menu and not have to bother with Metro at all.
    Monday, March 5, 2012 3:14 PM
  • I hate Metro too. Actually I haven't heard anyone to like the new Windows interface.


    Andrei Ungureanu

    www.winadmin.ro


    After using the CP now full time, I am starting to like the Start Screen. 
    Monday, March 5, 2012 6:05 PM
  • Anyway, Is there a way to remove Metro and bring back the Start Menu? The Registry tweak that worked in the Developer Preview doesn't work in the Consumer Preview anymore... As you can see, It caused a lot of frustration...

    Yes. Clean partition and reload Windows 7.  Not to be funny, but Metro is where MSFT is heading.
    Monday, March 5, 2012 6:06 PM
  • The problem I and others have found is the content and layout of metro, as offered to the general user, is very poor. If you try the Windows Server '8' CP metro experience you will find the same metro system but with a far improved experience. I achieved the same experience in Windows 8 through removing all programmes I didn't want and resizing and pinning those that I did. For those that auto pin after installation its removing those that are unnecessary. Otherwise its just learning the curser top right opens the old style start in a new format.
    Monday, March 5, 2012 8:37 PM
  • I hate Metro too. Actually I haven't heard anyone to like the new Windows interface.


    Andrei Ungureanu

    www.winadmin.ro



    I am okay with Metro but it is not for keyboard/mouse.  There is a reason why Apple has not merge the UI of OSX and iOS.  Please give us the option to use Start Menu until a good All-in-One solution is available.  It is bad enough to ignore to mobile/Tablet market, and it is even worst to lose the desktop/notebook market.
    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 1:18 AM
  • I hate Metro too. Actually I haven't heard anyone to like the new Windows interface.


    Andrei Ungureanu

    www.winadmin.ro


    Well, you're hearing from one now.  Love Metro and its much better than the old start menu.  Unfortunately, the ones most resistant to change are the squeakiest wheels.  Time to reformat and go back to win7 like was said above.  Microsoft and the rest of the world is moving forward.  Don't worry though since MS will support win7 for another decade until you can find an alternative.
    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 1:29 AM
  • If you don't like Metro then stay with W7 - it's as simple as that.
    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 1:39 AM
  • If you don't like Metro then stay with W7 - it's as simple as that.

    What a pointless comment to make.

    This is a consumer preview.  The idea being Consumers cna have a look and raise issues.  The way that the Metro screen is polarising people suggests that it is somehting that needs work before release.  Which is a win situation for MS.

    If people give reasonable feedback as to why they don't like it, then MS can take that feedback, and hopefully produce a better product.

    I happen to agree with the OP in this case.  I am not a fan of Metro as a replacement to the Start Menu.  Do I think it should be thrown out completely, no.  Indeed I think it will have many applications in home, media centre, tablet, and no doubt other environments.  But in a business environment there are a whole raft of other issues.  There is a reason why most IT organisations scale back the start menu by default, and it has nothing to do with the "power users" and everything to do with the average Joe who just wants to do his job.  For some business users Metro will be great.  But for others the desktop is the place they spend their time, and anything that removes them from the desktop is bad.

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:12 AM
  • Woolfe_AU

    If you read my post http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/a85da0f3-f77f-4051-bb6e-592677158777 you might find that our views are not so different.

    Perhaps my statement was short and to the point but no more so than someone saying 'I want my start menu back' without an appraisal of what they really need and considering alternatives. Most here will do this but a lot will return to W7. Perhaps I was putting it too bluntly.

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 11:12 AM
  • Suavemente, I like Metro too, I agree that we should move forward but don't forget the back.  Windows workstations are used by many business and there are lots of training involved.  I guarantee Metro will be a show stopper for many deployments.  

    BTW, Microsoft has no plan to support Win7 for another decade, unless they change Win7 support policy like they were forced to do on XP Pro.   In our part of the world, Win7 mainstream support ends 2015 and extended support ends 14/01/2020.  There is still lots of time left and we can certainly stay with Win7 but a lot of market share can be lost in a few years.  See how quick WM6 faded? 

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:01 PM
  • Woolfe_AU

    If you read my post http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/a85da0f3-f77f-4051-bb6e-592677158777 you might find that our views are not so different.

    Perhaps my statement was short and to the point but no more so than someone saying 'I want my start menu back' without an appraisal of what they really need and considering alternatives. Most here will do this but a lot will return to W7. Perhaps I was putting it too bluntly.

     d r h, I understand what you are saying, but I do feel it's very important that Microsoft listen to the bad feedback too.  (In fact, you usually get your best feedback when it's something you don't want to hear.)  Yes, Microsoft clearly wants people to forget the Start Menu and all past versions of Windows and "adapt" to Windows 8.  Yes, people can do that when forced.  However, in our organization with thousands of users, I see an absolute nightmare coming if we were to ever put the Metro Interface on their desktops and laptops.  Now we can "blame the user" for being dumb or stubborn, but can we please not forget re-training, frustration, confusion, etc. all cost money and result in a loss of productivity.  I realize it's just a simple "menu", but it's a menu and way of doing tasks we've done for years.  What is the advantage to Metro in our environment?  (There is none that we can see.)  If Metro actually performed the task of being a "better" menu, then fine, but so far I'm just not seeing that it's better.  I understand what Microsoft is doing with Metro and their obsessive desire to get into the "app market", but I have yet to hear what exactly the problem would be if they left the damn Start Menu back on the Desktop Interface?  You get the best of both worlds, and more importantly you get "options" as a user.  I realize Metro is what Microsoft wants and they have permanently removed the Start Menu we've all used for years and their approach is I can 'go spit' if I don't like it, but regardless, I think they need to be made aware of the frustration and displeasure this has caused.  As it is, my opinion our organization needs to simply skip Windows 8 and pretend it doesn't exist.  (If there were a Start Menu in the Desktop Interface and we NEVER had to pull up the Metro interface unless we wanted to, then our concern goes away.)

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:03 PM
  • Honestly, Metro isn't that hard if you take a week to sit down with it. It took me less then a week to really get used to it. Now I love it.

    If your that adamant about getting rid of Metro then sounds like you need to switch to Linux or something. Metro will be in every version of Windows after 8 and frankly, you'll only be able to run that Windows 7 computer for another 8 years before you'll end up having to upgrade. Either get used to it now, or get another OS.

    But like I said, it took me a week to figure it out and once I did, I found that it really was quite nice.


    Owner, Quilnet Solutions


    • Edited by Quilnux Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:21 PM
    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:20 PM
  • ...But in a business environment there are a whole raft of other issues.  There is a reason why most IT organisations scale back the start menu by default, ...

    This is the complete opposite for our business. Metro has actually made us faster at our jobs. Frankly, and this is just my personal oppinion, I really hope Microsoft won't drop Metro because I don't know if I would be willing to go back to losing productivity over the old start menu (which I've hated the old start menu for the last 10 years).


    Owner, Quilnet Solutions

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:25 PM
  • BTW, Microsoft has no plan to support Win7 for another decade, unless they change Win7 support policy like they were forced to do on XP Pro.   In our part of the world, Win7 mainstream support ends 2015 and extended support ends 14/01/2020.  There is still lots of time left and we can certainly stay with Win7 but a lot of market share can be lost in a few years.  See how quick WM6 faded? 


    WM6 didn't fall under the same support agreement that Windows does. Windows has always maintained a 10 year support gap. Also they were never "forced" to extend support on Windows XP. According to the original support agreement, the support duration will be extended to 10 years after the latest service pack for that operating system. This has been a constant in every version of Windows since Windows NT 4. Microsoft wasn't forced, they already agreed to.

    Owner, Quilnet Solutions

    Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:31 PM
  • How? It impedes visual multi-tasking and is an epic failure for users with multiple monitors.  If this garbage can't be disabled I will never buy another version of windows for desktop.  Edgeless metro apps dont belong on a desktop, and the transition between the metro menu and windowed applications is horrible.  It's looking to me like Windows8 is going to be about as successful as WindowsPhone7 (aka WindowsPhail).
    Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:25 PM
  • I very like the new METRO UI, and I believe this is the great tool to organize your programs and some useful gadgets as live tiles. 

    It has the same functionality as the W7 start menu (press Start and search) + new very cool features. 

    Great work, Microsoft!

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:49 PM
  • :)

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 7:18 PM
  • This is the complete opposite for our business. Metro has actually made us faster at our jobs.

    So...  You've already installed an alpha or at best a week-old beta release of an unproven new operating system throughout your business?  And you're willing to make blanket statements about how well it works based on how much time with it??

    I'm an early adopter, because I've been running Windows 8 in non-production test environments since the day the DP was released, I already know which of our tools work with the CP, and I have already developed plans for what we're going to do when it's released.

    But (unless I'm misunderstanding you) actually installing Windows 8 in a production environment...  Wow.  To me that seems to push you up to the status of "premature adopter".  I tend to look down on overly conservative IT departments, but this is a bit extreme in the other direction, no?

    I'm genuinely curious...  What work is it you can actually do faster on Windows 8?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 7:38 PM
  • I hate Metro too. Actually I haven't heard anyone to like the new Windows interface.


    Andrei Ungureanu

    www.winadmin.ro


    My wife and I both love Metro. I have many friends that feel the same. So now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

    Thanks,
    Bobby Cannon
    BobbyCannon.com

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:22 PM
  • Option is divided in our house - my wife likes the interface but I'm not a fan.  I guess I'll get used to it but I spend most of my day on servers and the interface doesn;t work there.

    Hate is a bit strong though ... it's only software after all :)

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:25 PM
  • On Thu, 8 Mar 2012 19:18:00 +0000, Noel Carboni wrote:

    <http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/getfile/77139>

    :)

    Brilliant, thanks Noel.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Hardware:  The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:50 PM
  • This is the complete opposite for our business. Metro has actually made us faster at our jobs. Frankly, and this is just my personal oppinion, I really hope Microsoft won't drop Metro because I don't know if I would be willing to go back to losing productivity over the old start menu (which I've hated the old start menu for the last 10 years).


    Owner, Quilnet Solutions

    What have you've been using for the past 10 years? Mac?

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:51 PM
  • A week per person is over 5 years lost productivity in my organisation. Microsoft need to give these sorts of issues serious thought and stop trivialising the hard earned knowledge that end users waste when they force these kinds of changes on them. Metro might be fine for tablets and phones, but the existing desktop should be kept while keyboard/mouse systems dominate corporate environment.

    One size never fits all, it rarely fits anyone.


    Cheers, Mark.

    Friday, March 9, 2012 12:01 AM
  • I've used every version of Windows since 3.0 was released in Australia. Generally speaking, the desktop UI improved in each major revision but the windows paradigm remainded the same and it wasn't a problem finding stuff that moved (unecessarily) between menus.

    Metro is a major paradigm change in UI and I don't need to have that forced on me by an uncaring vendor with their own agenda. From the moment I get Metro, I can't do the first thing without relearning everything I know as I go. I don't believe that will happen quickly, and for some of my regular office staff, it will take as many years as they've been using computers to get back to where they are now. 

    Not everyone who uses a computer is an IT person, the vast majority just want to use a tool and get on with their job, this new UI will be a major frustration to everyone who is forced to use it. If a regular desktop UI like Windows 7 isn't avilable for keyboard/mouse configurations (we have over 800 of those) we will stay on the current version as long as physically possible. Count me OUT for 800 upgrades Microsoft. Oh, and add another 150 or so for servers, they'll be staying the same too.

    One size does not fit all, it rarely fits anyone.


    Cheers, Mark.


    • Edited by MarkEmery Friday, March 9, 2012 12:23 AM
    Friday, March 9, 2012 12:23 AM
  • I had a devious thought...  It's not like anyone's going to boycott the free DP or CP, so they can do pretty much anything they want, right?  Short of causing your computer to explode, people are going to run it.  Millions of them.  Controversial Metro reimagination or no...

    What if at the last instant, just at the moment of RTM, Microsoft miraculously brings back a "Classic" option to configure the Start menu back into existence?

    Microsoft will be heralded as heroes!  The press will laud them as caring folks who actually DO listen to their customers.  They themselves will shout this from the highest point, saying "we listened, and we made it the way YOU wanted it!"

    Think about it...  They will have created an artificial crisis, and have had everyone talking about it, then be considered Gods for solving the crisis just in the nick of time, as well as turning around their image of being uncaring!  Not only that, but they'll have trained everyone to use Microsoft-based tablets.  I haven't noticed desktop functions (e.g., in the control panel) going away when their Metro counterparts are implemented have you?

    This is right on so many levels...

    Let's wait and see.  :)

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Friday, March 9, 2012 3:58 AM
  • Computer users today are not the computer users of yester-year. They use their computer to get on Facebook, mail, their favorite news site, watch videos, listen to music, etc. With that in mind, this start menu provides users with the fastest way to connect to these items, using apps. Welcome to the future Brian404...this is how it will be. You may not like it, however I bet you have not given it much chance. What is the real issue with hitting Win + Q when you need to search something or Win + D to get to your desktop? Did you not use the Run option in XP to get to things, or the Search option in Win 7?  After 15 minutes I can navigate Windows 8 faster with my keyboard than any OS before. This OS allows those with a brain to navigate their PC while still making it dummy-proof for the average Facebook/Mail/Surfer who panics when a gray dialogue box pops up.

    To be very honest, the point here was probably to get millions of people to constantly say the word metro...Marketing 101 for the win Microsoft. There will always be those who resist the change, but in the grand scheme of things uniting all MS gadgets under one OS will increase the competition between Apple and MS. That competition provides better products for the consumer. 

    Remember that MS is not personally attacking you by designing and selling a new OS...If you do not like it, don't use it, provide your feedback (mind you "good" feedback is provided in a constructive criticism format) and move on with your life. I would like to see the ability to bypass metro in startup for a computer lab application.

    Friday, March 9, 2012 7:45 PM
  • A week per person is over 5 years lost productivity in my organisation. Microsoft need to give these sorts of issues serious thought and stop trivialising the hard earned knowledge that end users waste when they force these kinds of changes on them. Metro might be fine for tablets and phones, but the existing desktop should be kept while keyboard/mouse systems dominate corporate environment.

    One size never fits all, it rarely fits anyone.


    Cheers, Mark.

    You wouldn't lose 5 years, that's just silly. It may take a week or two to completely fall in love with a new car, but in the meantime you're still getting where you're going. Metro is fine with a keyboard and mouse, been using it all week.

    rtk

    Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:02 AM
  • Anyway, Is there a way to remove Metro and bring back the Start Menu? The Registry tweak that worked in the Developer Preview doesn't work in the Consumer Preview anymore... As you can see, It caused a lot of frustration...

    Yes. Clean partition and reload Windows 7.  Not to be funny, but Metro is where MSFT is heading.
    Then microsoft's stock is headed for the toilet.
    Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:09 PM
  • Wow, all week, huh?

    I just love the way people just try to marginalize and dismiss those of us who know a thing or two about how people work.

    RTK, did it occur to you that maybe those of us anticipating trouble actually might understand what we're seeing and know what we're talking about?  Perhaps even at a level beyond what you can imagine.  Maybe some of us have even been running Windows 8 for months.

    Personally, I find most business users so inflexible that if you plunked a new Windows 8 computer in front of them it would take a LOT longer than a week for them to be productive again, even if you immediately required them to take an all-day Windows 8 class.  It takes them longer than a week to get working again with a new computer running the exact same OS they already have.

    We're not even mentioning the time they'll cost the help desk and IT people!

    No, the problems with jumping the already well established tracks are not in any way trivial or marginal.  But as I mentioned above, it may be that we actually will see a reasonable migration path magically reappear from Microsoft at the last moment.  It's not like business users have no money to spend!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:21 PM
  • Wow, all week, huh?

    I just love the way people just try to marginalize and dismiss those of us who know a thing or two about how people work.

    RTK, did it occur to you that maybe those of us anticipating trouble actually might understand what we're seeing and know what we're talking about?  Perhaps even at a level beyond what you can imagine.  Maybe some of us have even been running Windows 8 for months.

    Personally, I find most business users so inflexible that if you plunked a new Windows 8 computer in front of them it would take a LOT longer than a week for them to be productive again, even if you immediately required them to take an all-day Windows 8 class.  It takes them longer than a week to get working again with a new computer running the exact same OS they already have.

    We're not even mentioning the time they'll cost the help desk and IT people!

    No, the problems with jumping the already well established tracks are not in any way trivial or marginal.  But as I mentioned above, it may be that we actually will see a reasonable migration path magically reappear from Microsoft at the last moment.  It's not like business users have no money to spend!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Yes, all week. Very few posting here have been using the consumer preview for any longer. Your suggestion that those that share your own opinion are the only ones to understand how people work and have a deeper understanding is more a case of confirmation bias than a commentary on Metro or the start screen.

    You seem to be so focused on the start menu vs. start screen that you've ignored the rest of the OS. People are productive with the apps they use, not the interface used to launch the apps.


    rtk

    Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:45 PM
  • Didn't you look at the Developer Preview?  Some folks have been running that and gathering our information and opinions since late last year.

    And I'll bite:  What is there to say about "the rest of the OS" besides commentary about the window dressing?  About the ability to run apps with big fonts maximized a different way?

    The kernel hasn't changed much that I can see.  Not that 100% compatibility is a bad thing, but if all there is good to say about "the rest of the OS" is that they didn't break anything, well, that's something we should expect, isn't it?

    Metro kind of reminds me of the scene in "Men In Black" where K says "I guess I'll have to buy the White Album again".

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:45 PM
  • Not that simple if you buy computers that come pre-installed with windows 8. Then you will be forced to purchase another $200.00 copy of windows 7 while they still make it to make the computer properly usable on a desktop. I have a feeling that lots of companies will be offering windows 7 instead of 8 for as long as they can to keep customers happy. Even longer than the ones who offered xp to business when 7 came out. My own two cents on the ui: On a tablet, it'll probably be great. On the desktop I'm using it on now, the metro screen and fullscreen apps look terrible on a large widescreen and are very distracting from a usability standpoint. I usually embrace new operating systems, I even like the linux unity desktop and gnome3 interfaces. And I definitely like windows 7. As windows 8 stands right now, not so much. Stardock makes an app already to bring back the start button and shrink the metro interface to a more usable on the desktop size. Still ugly, but better than ms.
    Friday, March 16, 2012 11:21 AM
  • For a tablet style touch screen device I think the Metro interface will work well. However, in a business desktop environment the Metro interface seems to get in the way. Sort of like the old square peg/round hole analogy. I'm always running multiple applications and want quick access to programs. What I most likely will do is pin as many programs as I can to the task bar, even something like regedit, just to avoid flipping out to the start screen. My brother is a programmer and he uses a 30-inch monitor plus a portrait 24-inch monitor. That might be a bit extreme but it's certainly not well suited to Metro. I don't really understand why Microsoft wants to completely get rid of the old start menu, other than to force users to use what is probably an inferior interface for desktops.

    My other complaint with Windows 8 and Metro and that it's ugly. Very plain graphics, boring colours, large ugly buttons. Are they trying to reduce CPU/video requirements so it will work better on slower tablets?

    Friday, March 16, 2012 11:44 AM
  • Gentlemen, Metro UI is OK. But what you get in Windows 8 isn't Metro at all! That's the problem! That looks like a parody for what you get in Windows Phone. When on Windows Phone it is all made fantastic and easy to use, and that's where Metro is far to high and unreachable for any other mobile UI out there, implementation in Windows 8 looks like a sham. I am sorry to say this and I don't want to offense nobody @ design office, but this is rather to say that I am really confused with implementation.

    Current Metro implementation in Windows 8 is counterproductive! It's NOT a Metro UI. It's something that MIMICs Metro style but has nothing to do with it. Take Server Manager in Windows Server 8. It does not look generic Metro. Sure, it has Metro controls, but the concept as a whole is not a Metro. It is rather a compilation of Metro UI controls, which has been incorrectly implemented. It ruined the whole Metro idea. It's not a screen design but rather an old Windows concept skinned with Metro UI controls!

    Please excuse my expressivity but I am badly disappointed with Consumer Preview. This is probably because of my high expectations that I've got by using Windows Developer Preview. I believed MSFT will definitely work the problematic points out, but from what I see here, nothing has changed in usability. Moreover, it become worse. Why that many new panes??? What for? You have WindowsKey+Tab vertically, Alt+Tab horisontally, a pane at the bottom, a pane at the right. Clutter! It is all panels and no productivity.

    I watched Russian Windows 8 presentation. They have been showing off the new screen pane and they have been unable to get it shown! I was nearly shocked by that. Not only because it all seemed like they haven't even tried using Windows before presenting it to audience (I haven't seen any weaker presentation before), but also by how 'easy' it was to use this pane for the one who has no experience working with Metro style. I haven't seen nobody who could get the pane showing all screens by sliding the mouse pointer down the screen with the first attempt. You just get the one recently opened screen and you have to do it twice, thrice to show the remaining screens on the pane.

    But that all turns into nightmare when it gets to using Metro on multi-monitor configuration. Why on Earth is the bottom-left corner that is responsible for showing the charms made just 16x16 large?!? Is it what you call a click target??? Imagine a high-res multi-monitor configuration with two WQXGA monitors 2560х1440 pixel 27 inches each. Now take any of system analysts that suggested the 16 px target and have them click this target. It is nearly impossible to properly locate the area and hit it at the first push. You will almost always get your mouse pointer slid through the corner to the second monitor! Ergo: it is really hard to get the charms shown with mouse!

    Additionally, we all get used to using time displayed in notification area: a glance to the bottom-right corner, and you know what date and time it is now. Switch to Metro UI, and... no way to do that without sliding your mouse sideways all to the right. Well, not that it is impossible, but does it really add something to what we had before? What's good about it? In no way it become more convenient to use.

    Last but not least! How do you get what language layout is currently used without pressing WindowsKey+I??? It is impossible in multi-monitor configuration. Imagine one of your monitors is displaying the Desktop, and the screen has a Metro style app opened on it, say the IE. How do you get what keyboard layout is used at the moment? On the Desktop you could just look at the notification area, but... it is now 'hidden' by the opened Metro UI screen!

    Ah, by the way. How did you come to name the control as charms?!? Does it mean that MSFT does not plan localizing Windows anymore? How do I translate this into 36 languages? I cannot even imagine translating this into Russian without having my colleagues laughing at me. Откройте шарм Windows (as a translation for Open Windows charms)? Reminds me of "Le Charme discret de la bourgeoisie" by Luis Buñuel.


    Well this is the world we live in And these are the hands we're given...




    Friday, March 16, 2012 1:25 PM
  • Didn't you look at the Developer Preview? Some folks have been running that and gathering our information and opinions since late last year.

    Didn't just look at it, I've ran it as my only OS on my main desktop and laptop at home, as well as my main desktop and laptop at work. They were installed as dual boot, but win7 was all but ignored since around September 14th.

    And I'll bite: What is there to say about "the rest of the OS" besides commentary about the window dressing?

    -Noel

    If this is a serious question, I'd suggest you might want to look beyond the window dressings, as there's a lot there to learn about. For an easy example, I'm loving signing in with a live ID and syncing settings, as it saved me a lot of configuration on the other three systems. Can't say I was anything but pleasantly surprised it was so easy to link it to a domain account as well.

    There's massive differences between the DP and CP, UI and otherwise.


    rtk

    Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:51 AM
  • Not that simple if you buy computers that come pre-installed with windows 8. Then you will be forced to purchase another $200.00 copy of windows 7 while they still make it to make the computer properly usable on a desktop.
    Extended support ends in 2020, I'm quite sure you'll be able to find win7 at retail for significantly less than 200 before then. Not a single person here can even imagine what kinds of Personal Computing devices we'll be using in eight more years. I for one hope it doesn't look anything like Windows 7 or lower. Remember the iPad is barely two. The DP was properly usable on a desktop for me, and the CP has significantly improved the experience as well. YMMV.
    I have a feeling that lots of companies will be offering windows 7 instead of 8 for as long as they can to keep customers happy. Even longer than the ones who offered xp to business when 7 came out.
    No OS from any company will ever be offered by anybody for as long as XP was. I'd bet my life on that. That said, Microsoft has pretty much always offered downgrade rights to businesses. That's nothing new.

    Stardock makes an app already to bring back the start button and shrink the metro interface to a more usable on the desktop size. Still ugly, but better than ms.

    -nabob052

    Stardock has always been great for deep customization, that too is nothing new, IMHO what they haven't been great at is performance and stability.

    rtk

    Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:10 AM
  • Stardock has always been great for deep customization, that too is nothing new, IMHO what they haven't been great at is performance and stability.

    Stardock had some stability issues in the beginning, but they are fine now. I've been using their windowblinds and icon packaging products for years now to dress up windows to my liking and if they continue along that tradition then windows 8 can be made usable for the desktop user, like myself, that doesn't like the metro interface.
    Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:55 PM
  • Ok. first of all i really dont get people who sa metro is better - Are You noobs woh use only facebook , youtube and mail ???? This crap UI is the worst change ever made to windows. Its for tablets and smarthpones not for a PC . I hate metro and if there wont be an option to disable it ill stick with 7. It seems that windwos 7 will be another XP -10 years 90% usage .Most of windows users do more advanced things that going to facebook ad telling everybody you got out of shower and alot of people are working on windows and i really dont see metro in my company … I can already imagine people calling and saying "get this shitty windows 8 off my computer" So , fr those who "love" metro - seriously get a life and do more things then visiting facebook, sending ail and watch tard video on yt… Metro = bye bye win8.
    EDIT: And the way that switching between normal windows UI and metro is a complete fail. Ill make it straght - no option to disable metro = Microsoft win8 fail… Like millenium.
    EDIT2: Besides metro win8 is very nice but any more advanced user will hate metro. You cant even open a photo in normal browser , it redirects you t metro instead so You cant for isntance use snipping tool to cut a part of photo and save it somewhere.... REally - an option to disable metro completely is a must !
    EDIT3: My concluion is that metro is for people who know near to nothing about computers and want to use facebook and crap in peace : )
    • Edited by izajasz1 Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:53 AM
    Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:28 AM
  • I agree with the OP metro is useless for business and people at my work have pointed out they will stay with windows 7 or move to ubuntu which is free and local businesses and world markets are moving in that direction.  So if ms does this without a way to disable metro then you at your work are going to look at a linux machine soon with ubuntu probably or windows 7 and so the new interface wont matter in windows 8.

    Okay answer me this windows 8 developers what about active directory user creation in windows 8 and custom programs that do require certain file editing to properly run and I need to use legacy programs for awhile?

    I say that for tablets and windows phone 7 windows 8 would be great with metro enabled but if on a corporate pc its too much of a IT hassle and most IT guys will give it up quickly. Yes i have tryed the developer preview which sucks and if i cant disable metro then i dont need it because I work at a school system and we make constant upgrades to programs and custom teacher computers and if I cant have a interface in which i can do the same work in 3 clicks  or "hand swipes"  rule (added  in hand swipes for windows 8)then i dont need it because thats  unproductive and causing a 5 minute task to take 10 minutes which is what happened when even switching to desktop view searching for active directory programs after doing a test connection to my companies ad network.

    Corporate users beware it does take at least more then 2 swipes/clicks to get to anything you need comparing to windows 7 less then 2 clicks.

    "arteekey" its always been easy to link it to a domain account but try managing users within two mouse clicks like in windows 7 which i can do very easily and its become a 5 or more click ordeal for me so I definitely say you dont know what your talking about.

    In corporate environments metro should be disabled because its only useful for teenagers/people who waste time looking at personal stocks/playing games/personal material and who does have this type of interface use it on what devices: on their phones! and guess what it gets used for? PLAYING GAMES/looking up stupid youtube videos which is what will happen with our teenagers at schools parents if metro is released in a corporate environment this way (maybe teenagers might even be able to look up porn while IT guys are figuring out how to fix this metro disaster)!

    You get what you ask for if you use metro!


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda





    Monday, March 19, 2012 6:42 PM
  • OK, I made another stab at disabling Metro UI in Windows 8 Consumer Preview.

    Methods that work to bypass or disable Metro UI in Windows 8 Developer Preview do not work in Windows 8 Consumer Preview. Also, methods based on using the Task Manager and methods that are based on a showdesktop.scf don't work well either.

    However, I discovered that overriding the default registry value:

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon]"Shell"=explorer.exe

    with

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon]

    "Shell"="explorer.exe /select,explorer.exe"

    does in fact automatically skip past Metro UI (under most circumstances). Metro UI isn’t actually disabled, but it is bypassed without having to manually click on the Metro UI“Desktop” icon.

    One can also do this override on a per-user basis by adding the following key to individual login profiles:

    [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon]

    "Shell"="explorer.exe /select,explorer.exe"

    In this latter case, you could dip your toe in the water by creating a new login id to experiment on before applying the change system-wide with the first case.

    Note that in either case, after one logs on, it takes a couple of seconds for the desktop background to appear after the initial root folder for the user appears.

    Also, note that this method leaves a vestigial explorer.exe process that remains in the background until a logoff occurs.

    I also made two .reg files, one for the HKLM change and one for the HKCU change, which can be used to apply the desired change. These are in a zipped folder that can be downloaded from:

    http://www.reliancepc.com/menu/tips/Downloads/GoToClassicDesktopRegFiles.zip

    (Needless to say, if you decide to give this a try, be careful, do a system restore point, and be prepared to enter Safe Mode [if you can figure out how], or understand how to bring up the Task Manager with Ctrl-Alt-Del and start regedit.exe with Administrative privileges if you happen to get in real trouble, i.e., no desktop appears at all.)

    I also recommend that you disable the hateful lock screen via gpedit.msc by going to:

    Local Computer Policy -> Computer Configuration -> Administrative Templates -> Control Panel -> Personalization -> "Do not display the lock screen" and setting that to "Enabled".

    Finally, download and install ViStart to get a Start Menu back. Once you've done all three of these things W8 CP starts to become usable for actual enterprise-level work as opposed to pointlessly farting around with a toy interface that badly emulates a credit-card sized personal communication touch-screen interface like Android.


    Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:08 AM
  • All that just to make it jump straight to the desktop on login?  How the hell hard is it to just click on one tile?  How often are you having to reboot/login, anyway?

    ViStart is the right idea but is basically buggy and poorly integrated.  I have high hopes for the ClassicShell project.

    Even at this early stage we can *almost* turn Windows 8 back into a desktop-friendly OS, so it's pretty certain that it won't be long before good, solid solutions become available.  I imagine we'll all survive this transition, though paying for an upgrade then having to work extra hard to make it work the way we want, without any particularly tangible advantages to help balance that effort just seems wrong somehow...

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:33 AM
  • As an ex-Microsoft MVP I hate to say this, but if there is no way to bypass Metro UI in certain instances, when the time comes, I'll defect to the dark side - i.e. buy a MAC, assuming I live that long.

    I don't mind the concept and can cope with it up to a point, but it's wrong to assume that everyone even wants a touch-screen in the first place or a tablet experience, I know I certainly don't.  My iPad is as far as that idea goes, sorry.

    Where Metro UI becomes a complete nuisance is in my multi-boot situation where the only way I can get my (Microsoft) Bluetooth keyboard to work across several OS's is to make sure it pairs WITHOUT a passkey  and tell the wireless to operate as Hardware-Based rather than Software-Based (contrary to your Fixit), and Windows 8 wont let you do either of those.

    So I have to revert to using my stone age wired keyboard and mouse when booting into Windows 8 CP.  Normally those are reserved only for when I need the BIOS or Safe Mode.

    So for me it's a bust, sorry.


    Peter, Toronto, Canada.


    • Edited by Ex_Brit1941 Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:25 PM
    Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:21 PM
  • "How often are you having to reboot/login, anyway?"

    Lots. Porting a large number of tools that require A LOT of login/logout/switching of multiple login ids for testing. The extra, pointless clicks were driving me crazy. Besides, I made the post for others who were looking for a similar solution. Also, preparing to solve complaints and problems of my customers in the event MS persists in trying to foist a tinker-toy UI made for credit-card sized touch screen comm devices onto desktop and laptop PCs in the near future.

    Sunday, March 25, 2012 3:07 PM
  • I'm with you, by the way, I never want to see the Start screen if I don't have to.  I was just curious, and seeing as much registry work as you put up just to save a single click seemed excessive, but I understand your point of view better now.  Thanks.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Monday, March 26, 2012 4:32 AM
  • I don't hate metro. I don't like it either. I just don't use it. I never really used the start menu.

    I use :

    - some (5) docked applications +2 toolbars on my task bar for less used applications

    - win+E when I want to see a document (video, music, etc...)

    - wind+D and win+(up / down / left / right) (love seven for those) for windows management

    - win+R when I want to launch something specific (msconfig, compmgmt, mspaint, ...)

    - win+pause when I wanna go to the config pannel

    That's what I like with microsoft OS, there is always more than one way to do something. And all those ways are still there on win 8.

    The only thing I use the start menu for, is to shut down the computer. I won't complain for the change and use win+I instead.



    Monday, March 26, 2012 7:02 AM
  • Now there's a hot testimonial that'll sell metro to millions of touchscreen Consumers.

    A hot-key testimonial.

    I know I don't represent the majority of users. I'm an old windows user (since 3.1) I've worked with most version of the OS (95, 98, 2000, XP, vista, seven, 8) each time something change, there's always someone to rant. I just wanted to show that, even if this version is focused around metro, you don't have to use it. There are always other ways around.

    Yeah I'm a heavy hot-key user. that's a way to do it. But that's not the only way. There are a lot of other ways, and each user will find a way he like, eventually. Every change needs time, no need to punish me for that ;)

    Monday, March 26, 2012 12:03 PM
  • There is a real need to allow users (especially corporate, but even home users) to choose between Metro and a classic menu configuration.

    I could go on-and-on about my experience since Microsoft Windows (no 3.anythhing, the original) started.

    I was quite impressed with the 95 interface and proud that MS had finally caught up with MAC of the late 80s.
    When 98 came out I enjoyed the added functionality & even tolerated the un-needed frills.
    98se certainly cleaned up a bunch of loose ends from the original.
    I admit, I never used ME.
    XP, hit me as way to bubbly, however simple setting changed the interface to a more agreeable professional look
    Vista, again gave me too much fluff, however again it can be toned down with simple settings.
    Windows 7 (as well as office) started leaning toward the more simple user, a needed market, however the interface was again able to be tweaked with native settings.

    But now, the marshmallow & candy bar, child-like Metro screen is mandatory & the start button will not function as a simple professional menu system.  No settings to click to bring order to chaos, no shutting down the clearly "Telephone & Tablet" interface for business & home users that have been loyal.  This is certainly an unacceptable move.

    While there are 3rd party applications (note I didn't say apps) that will simulate the classic menus to a degree (I have tried sever offered, and none have full functionality), it would be irresponsible of Microsoft to withhold a user selectable option to skip the Metro page, and proceed directly to the desktop, and click the "Start  Button" to do everything from opening menus & programs to, you guessed it, "shut down" the machine.

    I am not a squeaky wheel who will resist change & bash the Metro interface, and demand a return to "old reliable", this interface has its place, on telephones, tablets, touch-screen devices & children's toys, but business users (even while at home) need the ability to revert a more classic menu style.

    (stepping off soapbox now, thanks for your time) 

    Monday, March 26, 2012 11:33 PM
  • we need something like below that can only help us for now.

    "windows 7 transformation pack for windows 8"

    Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:10 PM
  • we need something like below that can only help us for now.

    "windows 7 transformation pack for windows 8"

    it's called windows seven. why change if you don't like the new ? stick to the old.
    Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:23 PM
  • Hi there is a way to get the start menu back you will need to download and install a small app from www.lee-soft.com/vistart/builds/windows-start-menu-vistart.exe once installed you will have the start menu as in windows 7.

    hope you find this usefull.

    <removed>

    Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:49 PM
  • looks neat thanks i will definitely try and implement for my school system if we ever switch to windows 8 or i will use kinect.

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda

    Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:17 PM
  • It's possible to run any app without a mouse: just press Win, type in the name of app or executable and hit Enter (after that you may type in credentials to the application called and so on).

    Whereas in Windows 7 and lower a tooltip from the taskbar or an application that is fighting for being in focus could prevent you from navigating the Start menu. Metro seemed to be a better and more stable user interface than any ever. (don't mention to me any desktop Linux please, its applications can easily be crashed if a mouse click was send outside the active modal window :) and the KDE4 initial was hardly better than Metro - a lot of extra motions were required from the user).

    On the other hand, I feel that Metro applications can't perceive settings from their desktop brethren. Only today several Metro application could connect the Internet through the corporate firewall (before this only Mail and Evernote could). However, I believe that it's going to be better and better.

    Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:39 PM
  • you could download a program called vistart

    it gives windows 8 a start button that imitates Windows 7's

    but it is pretty laggy

    Saturday, March 31, 2012 11:18 PM
  • You now have a very nice new alternative:

    Version 3.5.0 of ClassicShell now supports Windows 8 CP:

    http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, April 1, 2012 12:51 AM
  • Thanks i will try that one too. I just do very unstable debugging and programming with device drivers and would like to know its not metro and also kinect can become unstable when debugging and jigger if I use a command inproperly. But i do agree with kinect support doing things on the desktop version would be a lot easier if log-on  and metro ui (start menu metro included) supported kinect too so can someone pass onto windows 8 team. Theirs been lots of talk on a kinect forum thread about getting support in windows 8 since tablets are good for tablet devices why not kinect for the desktop computers windows 8 might go on?

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda



    Tuesday, April 3, 2012 5:06 PM
  • I have tried Windows 8 consumer preview. I don't like it the basic screen and large UI remind me almost of a smartphone OS far too clunky for a PC with a modern high res display but my question is a simple one, if only the windows 8 server can have the metro ui disabled would it be possible to run a home/gaming pc user the server version? My concern is that things like Direct X etc may not be integrated into the server version.

    Wednesday, April 4, 2012 9:33 AM
  • After using the CP now full time, I am starting to like the Start Screen. 

    I must recant; I loath Metro.  I really, really, really go out of my way so that I can avoid Metro searches, etc whenever I can.  Whenever possible, I try to use Explorer's search window to find files; Metro is tiresome and removes the right-click ability to do certain actions such as "Open with."

     

    Metro and the "new" start menu is terrible.

    Saturday, April 7, 2012 10:11 PM
  • Heh, it might have been tolerable if we hadn't experienced a more direct, better integrated interface already.

    Go ahead and get ClassicShell.  It can keep you 100% away from the blasted Start screen.  Virtually everything else you can tweak to be almost as good as Windows 7.

    Having used ClassicShell on my Windows 8 VM, I'm now switching my Windows 7 host to use it.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, April 7, 2012 10:48 PM
  • Heh, it might have been tolerable if we hadn't experienced a more direct, better integrated interface already.

    Go ahead and get ClassicShell.  It can keep you 100% away from the blasted Start screen.  Virtually everything else you can tweak to be almost as good as Windows 7.

    Having used ClassicShell on my Windows 8 VM, I'm now switching my Windows 7 host to use it.

     

    -Noel


    I am somehow confused.  If one dislikes Metro and takes all kinds of measures to avoid it, why install and use Windows 8?  Does this make any sense?  The minor improvements under the hood are not worth the hassle.  It would be a moving target, anyway, as Microsoft would devise all kinds of ways to defeat programs that bypass the Metro Start Screen.  I just do not think that this a long-term strategy.  In any case, running any program developed for WinRT will drop one into Metro anyway.  If developers decide to switch to WinRT en mass, what's the point of avoiding Metro?

    I think that if one decides to move to Windows 8, then one would have to deal with the mix of a portable and desktop OS that it represents.  If this is not desirable, then one may want to stay with Win7 or move to another OS.

    Sunday, April 8, 2012 12:52 AM
  • I am somehow confused.  If one dislikes Metro and takes all kinds of measures to avoid it, why install and use Windows 8?  Does this make any sense?  The minor improvements under the hood are not worth the hassle.

    With what we know today what you say is true.  But difficult to see, the future is (imagining Yoda's voice here).

    When the "killer Metro app" that you absolutely MUST have comes out, without a Win32 version, what do you do?

    What do you do when Microsoft drops support for Windows 7 but is still supporting their latest?

    Let's say you buy a new computer that ships with Windows 8 - what then?

    You mention minor improvements under the hood, but they're not to be discounted.  Windows 7 is not perfect!

    Today you can get a high quality Antivirus solution that's kept up to date for Windows 7...  Will the AV companies be able to keep up the good work when they're not selling new copies to other new Windows 8 users?

    No, unfortunately, "sticking in the mud" with an older version of an OS has its problems and keeping current has its advantages, however ill-targeted the latest version is.  Just look at the kinds of problems XP and Vista users are starting to see now.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Sunday, April 8, 2012 1:41 AM
  • I am somehow confused.  If one dislikes Metro and takes all kinds of measures to avoid it, why install and use Windows 8?  Does this make any sense?  The minor improvements under the hood are not worth the hassle.

    With what we know today what you say is true.  But difficult to see, the future is (imagining Yoda's voice here).

    When the "killer Metro app" that you absolutely MUST have comes out, without a Win32 version, what do you do?

    What do you do when Microsoft drops support for Windows 7 but is still supporting their latest?

    Let's say you buy a new computer that ships with Windows 8 - what then?

    You mention minor improvements under the hood, but they're not to be discounted.  Windows 7 is not perfect!

    Today you can get a high quality Antivirus solution that's kept up to date for Windows 7...  Will the AV companies be able to keep up the good work when they're not selling new copies to other new Windows 8 users?

    No, unfortunately, "sticking in the mud" with an older version of an OS has its problems and keeping current has its advantages, however ill-targeted the latest version is.  Just look at the kinds of problems XP and Vista users are starting to see now.

     



    I agree with you that sticking with older versions of the OS does have drawbacks.  On the other hand, if everybody here buys Win8, the Microsoft vision would be enabled and the chance of programs coming out without a Win32 equivalent would be that much higher.  Thus,  whatever interface tweaks you are accomplishing, they are not going to change the fact that you are just enhancing the possibilities of working in a desktop system that would not have a windowing interface and which programs would be controlled independent of any particular wishes of the user.

    Thus, if the WinRT future happens, you would be running a system that does not do windows (a change of name may be necessary at that time) and would even actually render your modifications null and void because Win32 would not longer exist.

    Sunday, April 8, 2012 4:39 PM
  • I think there's no question hundreds of millions of people are going to use Windows 8.  It's inevitable that a WinRT future will happen after some fashion.  Business users will virtually all cry foul (much as we've seen here in the forums), and Microsoft may well respond with a real computer operating system that's different from Windows 8 - possibly somewhere between Windows 8 and Windows Server 8.  I can imagine WinRT apps wrapped in a desktop window with no trouble at all, as can anyone else.

    Somehow I suspect that they've focused all their energies on the tablet market so as to hit it hard, then will shift focus back to the people with real money to spend.  There might not be as many of them, and writing the software they require is harder, but by golly I can't imagine Microsoft turning their backs on enterprise computing because they really do have money to spend for real computers.  The Microsoft leaders are not so stupid as to think it can all be done on tablets, nor that they could sustain any kind of business focusing just on toys.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, April 8, 2012 9:00 PM
  • >Business users will virtually all cry foul (much as we've seen here in the
    > forums),
     
    I'm a business user and Windows 8 runs everything I need quite fine. 
    Should Microsoft ever decide their OS will not run what I need, then
    I'll have to make a new decision -- but I don't anticipate that for
    *years*.  Heck, I can still run my in house VB6 app in Windows 8, and
    that was written over 13 years ago.
     
    In 10 years time there can be so many changes that it can seen quite
    frightening, but I betcha I'll still be able to run my Win32 apps
    without even worrying about it.
     
    >but by golly I can't imagine Microsoft turning their backs on enterprise
    > computing because they really do have money to spend for real computers.
     
    Exactly. <g>
     
    In the mean time, I really don't see anything wrong with the Win8 UI,
    certainly not enough for me to not want to install the release version
    right away.  I actually like the speed and stability a lot...
     
    >nor that they could sustain any kind of business focusing just on toys.
     
    I wouldn't call a tablet a toy, but it certainly doesn't fit every job.
     I use one as my travel laptop -- it's a whole lot lighter and can do
    everything a laptop can except a *lot* of text entry. (which is
    something I don't need)
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Sunday, April 8, 2012 9:55 PM
  • Bob:

    Its great you like Win8 and it does everything you (currently) need to do.  It really is.

    But as long as you have been involved in this stuff (You, Noel, and I see to be fairly "ancient"), isn't it sort of your job to ponder how these changes affect other people, other people that are presumed to be working the way we all know you "used to"?

    Without this reflection, it could be seen as "I've got what I need, so I don't understand what you guys are upset about..." 

    My life is filled with barely constrained details.  I'm in and out of Excel, Access, Outlook (Web and Client), daily (hourly) and I've got to make this stuff work for me.  I need to find what I want in the way I'm familiar with finding it, I do NOT need to learn a half-arsed way of finding it, not filling up the task bar, not navigating through the Start Screen, not organizing the huge page of tiles to make the impact less severe, but just to have a start menu and a desktop I can leverage to make my stuff easier to find.

    My workflow looks something like this:

    I put undeniable every day stuff on the desktop taskbar.  Click = done.  I try to keep some space open here for those times when I know I'll be using Remedy or something else frequently for a week or two, then I unpin. 

    The next tier of commonly used apps and tools goes at the top of my start menu. Click, navigate vertically with the mouse, click = done.  Obviously I care about how many apps are here too, having a chock-full start menu gets almost as sloppy as as Start Screen.

    The next tier is the desktop itself, here I create shortcuts to somewhat frequent items, my sync folder, maps to shares, RDP, specialty tools I've written, etc.  These items "live here" for two reasons, to keep the start menu entries down as previously mentioned, and I know right where they are so a guick right-click"Show Desktop", mouse navigate, click = done.

    Now here's what's important: 

    For everything else, literally every element of my machine is available in the start menu.  It was designed that way for very good reason.  With a click, some mouse navigation, and a few other clicks, I'm where I want to be.  No typing required (which should be seen as an advantage ESPECIALLY for tablets).

    So, the "old" desktop "paradigm" works prefectly for me.  I might not be a visionary so I can't make the claim "if there was a better way I'd know it"; however, and this is key, I'm absolutely without question smart enough to figure out Win8 is no improvement in ANY way.  More apropo, it is absolutely, without question, worse.

    That's my concern.  As I feared from the first minutes of running the DP, my way of computing was being replaced by something not at all better (for the desktop in general, not just me).  Back at the start of the DP I was told "don't worry about it, this is the developer preview, of course MS is trying to put Metro front and center.  If you don't like it, just wait for the CP and I'm sure you'll be much happier".  Well, as we now know, not only did it get worse, but seems so disconnected from reality as almost to have been done out of spite.

    Nothing was improved by removing the start menu, the best that anyone has had to offer is "ways around" that loss of functionality.  Note, that's not "ways around something you never really needed anyway", but half-hearted work arounds that take more time and require more care in setting things up for as fluid an access as the new "paradigm" offers.  And its a giant failure.

    Again, its great you are able to function given the limitations, it would be nice if you could wear the other guys shoes for a while.

    Oh, last thing:  You mention stability.  Was Win7 flakey for you?  While I had minimal problems with XP and Vista, Win7 took it to a completely different level.  So is Win8 more stable in your view than Win7, or are you comparing it to android, IOS, or some other tablet OS?

    DAS

    Monday, April 9, 2012 12:10 PM
  • I am somehow confused.  If one dislikes Metro and takes all kinds of measures to avoid it, why install and use Windows 8?  Does this make any sense?  The minor improvements under the hood are not worth the hassle.

    With what we know today what you say is true.  But difficult to see, the future is (imagining Yoda's voice here).

    When the "killer Metro app" that you absolutely MUST have comes out, without a Win32 version, what do you do?

    What do you do when Microsoft drops support for Windows 7 but is still supporting their latest?

    Let's say you buy a new computer that ships with Windows 8 - what then?

    You mention minor improvements under the hood, but they're not to be discounted.  Windows 7 is not perfect!

    Today you can get a high quality Antivirus solution that's kept up to date for Windows 7...  Will the AV companies be able to keep up the good work when they're not selling new copies to other new Windows 8 users?

    No, unfortunately, "sticking in the mud" with an older version of an OS has its problems and keeping current has its advantages, however ill-targeted the latest version is.  Just look at the kinds of problems XP and Vista users are starting to see now.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Noel, but you see how long MS supports xp because a lot of companies did not migrate?

    Do not buy a computer with preinstalled win 8!

    I still use Vista, which problems do you speak of?

    If  (new) users purchase win7 instead of win 8, the AV companies make their business too.

    Killer metro app : MS is not able to write a killer app, and the market will persuade other vendors to make win 7 pgms "killing".

    Monday, April 9, 2012 12:29 PM
  • >(You, Noel, and I see to be fairly "ancient"),
     
    I sure feel ancient this morning... (I hate mondays <g>)
     
    >isn't it sort of your job to ponder how these changes affect
    >other people, other people that are presumed to be working
    >the way we all know you "used to"?
     
    It's very much my job being the IT Manager where I work.  I don't work
    in a big shop, but I do have to be concerned with the way people work.
     
    >Without this reflection, it could be seen as "I've got what I need,
    >so I don't understand what you guys are upset about..."
     
    It's a bit more than that.  Any new changes are always disruptive, but
    you have to balance the "getting used to" against the potential of the
    new features. And I never make a final decision on an OS until I get
    one of the less computer literate people some experience on the OS to
    see if it puts any stop signs in the path to rolling it out to more.
     
    The Office Ribbon is a change I absolutely hated myself, still do as a
    matter of fact, but I can live with it and the users actually had less
    of a problem adapting to it than I did.  Sometimes the users will
    surprise us total power user types with their adaptability...
     
    >My life is filled with barely constrained details.  I'm in and out
    >of Excel, Access, Outlook (Web and Client), daily (hourly) and
    >I've got to make this stuff work for me.
     
    Not a lot different from me but add some terminal sessions to our
    midrange, and Lotus Notes client instead of Outlook.
     
    >I need to find what I want in the way I'm familiar with finding it ...
     
    I understand wanting that, but that's just not the way I think.
    Sometimes throwing something new into the mix might actually make some
    of your job easier in the end.  I know if I had a user that was like
    that I would accommodate them for a time, but eventually I would have
    to move them to something newer.  Luckily I haven't had that problem
    yet, I've been the only one that has slowed any adoptions down.
     
    >My workflow looks something like this:
     
    I tend to work a bit more statically, i.e., icons always in the same
    place, no hunting.  Most frequent apps or apps I open documents with a
    jump list on the taskbar, once a day stuff in the root of the start
    menu in Windows 7, and a toolbar menu in Windows 8, and the rest in the
    start menu hierarchy (arranged also by usage) in either the start menu
    or a tool bar in Win8.
     
    I do launch a few things with the start screen, but it's rare and I
    mostly just ignore it.
     
    >I'm absolutely without question smart enough to figure out Win8
    >is no improvement in ANY way.  More apropo, it is absolutely,
    >without question, worse.
     
    Perhaps its that way for you personally, but other's mileage may vary.
    I happen to think the client Hyper-V is enough of an addition to
    warrant it for myself, and I know my users will like some of the new
    Metro apps. (and that's only going to get better with time.)  It also
    works better on a tablet for those users that have a need for something
    ultra portable,  not many here, only 3 or 4, but they tend to be the
    most technically savvy users too and looking for a quicker way to do
    something.
     
    >Nothing was improved by removing the start menu, the best that
    >anyone has had to offer is "ways around" that loss of functionality.
     
    I actually agree with you on this one, but it's not enough of a deficit
    to stop me from using Win8 and I know my users will be able to handle
    it.
     
    I never really liked the term "Start menu" for it, but it's always been
    pretty functional and even adaptable for different styles of work.  I
    don't know why they insist on getting rid of it, but there will always
    be utilities like "Classicshell" that fill the need for people that
    want that functionality, and I certainly have no compunction against
    running something like that on a users machine if that's what they
    want.
     
    >Again, its great you are able to function given the limitations,
    >it would be nice if you could wear the other guys shoes for a while.
     
    I wear a lot of shoes already. <g>  I'm just trying to say keep an open
    mind, who knows, we might actually find something that works better for
    us in the long run.  I know the Microsoft people themselves run Win8
    and are well aware of difference in productivity things cause.
     
    >Oh, last thing:  You mention stability.  Was Win7 flakey for you?
     
    On 3 machines yes, there seems to be some weakness in the video driver
    model that causes some instability that just shouldn't be there.  My
    own laptop is almost intolerable running Windows 7 (A thinkpad T510
    with an NVidia 3100m.)  It has a total lockup of the UI more than once
    a week.  Windows 8 has only crashed once since I started running it
    months ago on this machine, and it has never crashed when I'm running
    Win2008R2 SP1, so I know it's something to do with Windows 7.  The
    other machines are desktops, but it's the same full lockup symptom,
    only not nearly as often.
     
    >Win7 took it to a completely different level. 
     
    Win7 did take it to a new level, and that's why it's becoming the
    predominant OS here, but Windows 8, at least has taken it to a level
    beyond Windows 7, even in this beta form, pretty much server class
    stability in a more nimble set up.
     
    Now IE10 on Windows 8, bluch, not so much, it's not stable at all, but
    hopefully that will change with time.  When IE10 starts giving me fits,
    I use Chrome instead...
     
    >or are you comparing it to android, IOS, or some other tablet OS?
     
    I wasn't really directly comparing it to those, only to PC's, but truth
    be told, android has some stability issues and while iOS is pretty rock
    solid stable, not all the apps are -- far from it, but I also have more
    than 1 iOS device and love them for the uses I get out of them.  I find
    it a bit ironic, but I've seen some of the same kinds of instabilities
    from Metro apps, but since I don't develop for HTML5 or iOS, I have no
    opinion on just why that is.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 2:00 PM
  • >Vista never locks-up for me.  It's very reliable.    (except if I run FDM + IE
    > concurrently).
     
    I had a lot of problems with Vista.  I never rolled it out to any of my
    users...
     
    >On the other hand, Win7 Explorer crashes, you can't navigate it
    >without it jumping around, and you can't move files/folders
    >anywhere and depend on them showing up where you put them.
     
    I never really had a problem with the jumping around, but yes, explorer
    crashes and it takes a LONG time to enumerate an external drive if it's
    large, even if it's been there all along.  It doesn't seem to cache
    anything.  That's the most annoying thing to me.  Windows 8 explorer
    also has the same problem though not quite as bad.. :(
     
    >And those kissy pinned Taskbar buttons that have enchanted so
    >many users, they might be useful if they weren't so distracting
    > because they glow randomly.
     
    I find them VERY useful, more so than any other feature of Windows, and
    they don't glow randomly here.
     
    >Too bad we sacrificed the ability to minimize/focus programs
    >via a single click of those improved Win7 Taskbar buttons.
     
    There's still the Window buttons to do that, but I don't usually
    minimize things anyway, I just switch between them.
     
    >These features were not useful, right Bob?
     
    Not to me, but as long as you can still minimize windows with the
    window buttons, I much prefer the thumbnail views of multiple documents
    and jump lists over that.
     
    >I can't believe you are shilling Win8 as being a stability
    >improvement over Win7.
     
    I'm not shilling, it's the honest truth in my experience.
     
    >Now I'll certainly upgrade as soon as it RTM's. 
    >Thanks for that compelling research, Bob.
     
    That's certainly up to you, but I will be doing it.  My users will only
    get it when they get new machines.
     
    >But mainly, I just wanted to see how your NNTP post
    >would look when it's quoted.   I can't wait to hit the submit button and see
    > it fill the screen.
     
    I'm glad I entertained you for a second.  I have way too many forums I
    read to use the web interface, I'd never get anything done.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 3:41 PM
  • >Regarding those arbitrarily glowing Taskbar buttons,
    >either you don't use the Taskbar thumbnail previews as
    >fully as you think you do, or you really haven't been paying attention.
     
    I use them all the time, it's my primary access method for my work. 
    The highlight on mouse over, and running programs have a different
    highlight, but it's nowhere near random.
     
    >It's simple to do.  And fun.
     
    No thanks, it probably wouldn't bother me anyway, since it hasn't yet.
     
    >Especially by your suggestion that posting this present thread qualifies as
    > urgent.
     
    Nowhere did I ever say that, I said I follow a lot of forums, none are
    "urgent", but if I didn't use the NNTP bridge, I wouldn't be able to
    follow them all.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 4:08 PM
  • I think hes being paid to talk good about windows 8 plonk because other MVP's have disagreed too about windows 8 in other threads similar to this one. Despite using windows 8 developer preview I would throw effort into windows 8 except tablets are its only avenue which is said for its commerical interests especially in us and even then it doesnt have value because anyone that isnt being harassed by microsoft to "like" it or being paid to say they do has be playing with a toy. Metro is a toy because windows phone 7 is a toy too but because windows 7 phone has more stability put into like font is corrected to correct ratio when on phone and windows 8 big font makes it look like a nice toy which will not appeal to business users especially education (referring to US education because europes education appears better then the United state's so far excluding colleges/universities) that prefer from start not to spend money on anything that has big overhead in training especially.

    Besides its not going to transition as fast in us to tablets if this is so because people in business's in United States are just now getting to windows 7 (excluding oregon, new york, and some big cities whose schools probably can afford tabletsloyees to waste more time doing stuff they shouldnt when time should be spent on a reliable product being built. In addition, in united states if anyones taken business 101 knows most businesses are small businesses and prefer not to spend bulk amounts of money on products they dont need which includes volume licenses sometimes because their a good risk from microsoft at least until now.

    For people that like metro start menu: Yes it does act like an ipad allowing some ease of use but no its not the ease of use compared to windows phone 7 if that were so how come microsoft didnt reuse the code from windows phone 7 instead of throw a cheap run around version to us windows users?

    Question 2 for people that like metro menu:

    What about the nasty tiles unlike windows phone 7 where their pretty at least which is a good example of how metro needs to be? Doesnt aesthics appeal to anyone on the windows team?  If windows 8 team wanted metro start menu to appeal to people they would have made it fixed only on tablet versions and allow it to be turned off for business users and the higher end home users at least because doesnt mac os even have a different desktop/laptop style computer from their ipad/iphone's?

    Quesion 3: What about kinect support for metro start menu for desktops?

    Kinect support would allow you to use the metro start menu more correctly on desktops and as long as mouse is supported kinect could emulate the mouse even or provide gesture/voice support greatly improving navigation around metro start menu and provide accessibility support as well for the disabled.

    The above 3 questions I talked about the difference between windows 8 and windows phone 7 and some things that should be added to metro before I consider it an improvement because at this point your windows 8 is nothing compared to ease of use on windows phone 7 and so I could talk about areas that need improvement because right now the metro ui is a disaster.

    See how microsoft your going from creating a nice system to chaos?


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda


    Monday, April 9, 2012 5:35 PM
  • DAS, you and I seem to be birds of a feather and plonk, you're good at saying things others don't dare say.  :)

    The funny thing is that those who are good at "putting themselves in others' shoes" do weigh in from time to time, and have you noticed?  Very few of us seem to really be finding much to actually like about Windows 8.

    Yes, it's very stable (but so was Windows 7 for me).  Yes, with an unprecedented amount of effort it can be made almost as good as Windows 7 to use (with more nice improvements coming from 3rd parties in the future, no doubt).

    But why would I want it?

    Outside of a fairly intangible "it's better to stay current" sentiment, that is.

    In no way have I been able to discern Windows 8 is actually better.  And I've been around long enough and designed enough software for users myself to know the difference between emotional resistance to change and perceiving what is actually worse.

    And speaking of emotion...  Even my emotional "ug want shiny new trinket" side just can't find it attractive.  Flat, styleless buttons, square corners, slightly harder to use desktop controls, having to occasionally wade through an ugly Start screen (thankfully not often, as reboots are infrequent)... 

    But really, where's the attraction?  I'm just not seeing it.

    I'm the same geek who "saw it" quite clearly in DOS 6.2 (smartdrv!), Windows 3.11 for workgroups, Windows NT4, Vista, etc.  This time it's decidedly different.  This time, for the first time, it just feels like "gotta figure this out so as to be able to live with it until something better comes along".  And that's a freaking shame!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Monday, April 9, 2012 5:47 PM Added Vista. Can't forget about Vista!
    Monday, April 9, 2012 5:43 PM
  • >I think hes being paid to talk good about windows 8 plonk
    >because other MVP's have disagreed too about windows 8 in
    > other threads similar to this one.
     
    MVP's aren't paid, nor has Microsoft ever asked me to talk kindly, or
    less harshly, about anything.  We get awarded as MVP's because of our
    work out in the communities.  In my case, it's all user support in
    forums, but other MVP's are user group leaders, authors, and probably a
    lot more ways than that.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 5:49 PM
  • Still doesnt mean behind the scenes microsoft doesnt give you free stuff to talk good about windows 8 excuse me if im mistaken but didnt they rally excitement around windows phone 7 by giving ones to microsoft employees first (I could probably find that article by doing a google search)?  I have been helping out with kinect and in the kinect forums the kinect sdk programmers obviously want kinect in windows 8 and that hasnt been implemented either yet and thats wanted by a lot of kinect forums people in windows 8 so obviously not helping everyone that likes windows 8.

    Bob im not trying to say you are being paid or given anything to talk bad but microsoft does hold the puppet strings and has used them before (I can find articles on a case with microsoft office and the xml format they used to use and about some legal issues with it). 

    Bob sadly im more for metro if it had kinect support on the  metro start menu but it doesnt so the start menu is completely unusable for me in future unless i can disable or kinect support is added in final version. Also, I go to answers.microsoft.com and theirs still some unanswered questions about doing things in windows 8.

    I prefer to do things fast and have even used an ipad and can honestly say at the moment with the glitches transitioning to desktop apps sometimes and some times things becoming non-responsive in metro I would disable it.

    Bob using windows 8 is good but I wouldn't use it and I demoed it to some of the staff at my school district and they agree its bad in the near future to upgrade to it and some local businesses have seen it and agree too.

    In addition, Bob most businesses in small towns will disagree on using windows 8 on anything but desktops or laptops because its cheaper so they will need to be supported until a 10 year period is up or people will just buy Ipad/lenovo cheaper andriod tablet's which allow a lot more customization of interface then windows 8 right now (have lenovo android table at work and iam impressed at it compared to microsofts windows 8 metro because of customization to my organzations needs) and forgot buying microsoft tablets.

    Notice how im trying to not be biased. I would rant postiviely about metro but this time microsoft just hasn't listened to programmers and some consumers suggestions compared to windows 7 which was almost perfect in beta despite its few glitchs and I like it because with SP1 it became a nice addition to windows with its new features patched and stability (although had trouble with XP mode at times most xp apps worked on windows 7).


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda



    Monday, April 9, 2012 6:54 PM
  • >Still doesnt mean behind the scenes microsoft doesnt give you
    >free stuff to talk good about windows 8 excuse me if im mistaken
    >but didnt they rally excitement around windows phone 7 by >
    >giving ones to microsoft employees first
     
    I posted that Microsoft *never* talked to me about talking good, or
    bad, about a product, period, end of statement, there is no "still
    doesn't..."
     
    I wouldn't know what Microsoft did for their employees on Windows Phone
    7, but I do know I didn't get a Windows Phone, nor have I had any time
    with one to play with it.  I own an iPhone. MVP's are *not* employees
    of Microsoft in any way, and in fact, if any MVP gets a job with
    Microsoft, they are disqualified from being an MVP.
     
    I wouldn't know about Kinect either, I'm a business oriented MVP.  I've
    never even seen it work...
     
    Microsoft holds no puppet strings of mine, nor will they ever.  I work
    for a totally different company, not even in the computer industry.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 7:10 PM
  • Yes I seen the link before to mvp. You obviously didnt read my earlier posts which include business executives way up towards the top where I talk about windows 8 start menu being for executives (CEO's, VP's, Regional Managers, and such) who wouldnt know what to do if windows 8 failed on them anyways most times excluding the lower level managers who dont have time to put up with windows 8.  So what  your talking like a puppet because your excluding your target audience which is business consumers which pay a lot of money when they need to upgrade and try to use volume licenses because its cheaper or have you forgetten business 101 that most businesses and consumers in United states prefer not to mess around with their OS? excluding most consumers and business for a high risk toy? Blah! So what do you think is going to happen to windows 8 except for tablet market?   Also, you like start menu on windows 8 because you probably only use microsoft office and specific metro business apps and dont care a bit about programming so you dont have a hell of an idea what im talking about when I stay metro's flawed because I did try running apps on it before I make my statements. For instance, I ran a security application from my work place to test windows 8's windows 95 compatibility feature in developer preview which ran well two times then crashed in future instances when i tryed to bring it up without metro disabled using an registry hack and it ran better with metro disabled but still not as well as I hoped because it didnt give me an error with metro disabled the first few times i ran it.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda



    Monday, April 9, 2012 8:21 PM
  • "This is the complete opposite for our business. Metro has actually made us faster at our jobs."

    So...  You've already installed an alpha or at best a week-old beta release of an unproven new operating system throughout your business?  And you're willing to make blanket statements about how well it works based on how much time with it??

    I'm an early adopter, because I've been running Windows 8 in non-production test environments since the day the DP was released, I already know which of our tools work with the CP, and I have already developed plans for what we're going to do when it's released.

    But (unless I'm misunderstanding you) actually installing Windows 8 in a production environment...  Wow.  To me that seems to push you up to the status of "premature adopter".  I tend to look down on overly conservative IT departments, but this is a bit extreme in the other direction, no?

    I'm genuinely curious...  What work is it you can actually do faster on Windows 8?

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook: Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options


    Somehow, I doubt that what Quilnux says here is really true. The Consumer Preview is much too rough and incomplete to deploy in a working environment at this point. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if the retail release of Windows 8 will also seem rough and incomplete.
    Monday, April 9, 2012 8:44 PM
  • I wouldnt use windows 8 metro (maybe windows 8 if metro can be disabled in windows 8 only or put as an application like windows media player on start menu to start up again) in my prodution environment in which I have some older computers because we haven't got the money to upgrade them all much less buy tablets to support windows 8 tablet montage theory by windows 8 developers. BTW, my last statement about puppet above vista's statement is just an expression bob and  your still not offically microsofts puppet but I just meant you talk like a windows 8 metro developer would talk about windows 8.  

    I will just  try and use windows 7 for a few more years before I upgrade to windows 8 because my home computer has windows 7 on it from oct 2010 and SP1 one agrees with it.  Im ending this discussion and joining noel on his quest for using a tool to disable metro again and it helps enable a start menu he's already started the thread.

    Okay enough is said now we just need choice to switch not just because of aesthics but also because of stability issues that metro tends to cause with its compatibility mode when running windowed programs.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda

    Monday, April 9, 2012 9:04 PM
  • >BTW, my last statement about puppet above vista's statement is
    >just an expression bob and  your still not offically microsofts
    >puppet but I just meant you talk like a windows 8 metro
    >developer would talk about windows 8.
     
    I'm not a metro developer, and I don't foresee that in my future -- I
    only write and maintain in house apps, and that means Win32 and for a
    midrange machine called an i series.
     
    I know it sounds odd to you, but I say what I say because I actually
    like Windows 8.
     
    I agree this particular subthread has gotten out of hand so I'm pretty
    much done and I'll fade back into the woodwork...
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 9:25 PM
  • >Yes I seen the link before to mvp.
     
    Then you should know we don't get paid.
     
    I've read all your posts...
     
    >So what do you think is going to happen to windows 8 except for tablet market?
     
    It will sell quite well on new PC's.
     
    >Also, you like start menu on windows 8 because you probably
    >only use microsoft office and specific metro business apps...
     
    You obviously haven't read what I said either.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 9:26 PM
  • It will sell quite well on new PC's <- No it wont because thats baised if i ever saw it and your still eliminating a big portion of united states consumer market because they arent going to buy into that bull which thats the nice things i've heard about windows 8 (I heard people swearing with cuss words they wouldnt use it a lot more then normal in past windows experiences) and they are mostly small businesses and home consumers that dont have time to fiddle through metros start menu to find their programs which they need.

    Besides if you were an MVP in virtual machine you would have a work around for people that need to operate in start menu mode especially device driver guys who need to debug with command line open in order to compile/issue commands and dont need an interface popping up in their way while debugging.  MVP virtual machine! blah!


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda

    Monday, April 9, 2012 9:49 PM
  • An MVP in Virtual Machine has nothing to do with Windows Shell or even
    developer status -- it's in the IT hierarchy and deals with
    virtualization (Hyper-V, Virtual PC, ...)
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, April 9, 2012 11:11 PM
  • For anyone who is hoping that Microsoft will remove the Metro UI from desktop Windows at some point in the future, all hope is not lost.

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/253520/chrome_os_gets_a_desktop_feel_with_new_aura_interface.html#tk.hp_new

    Google finally seems to be coming to its senses regarding laptop design. We can only hope that Microsoft will do the same.

    Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:37 PM
  • Knowing how tough it is to change the direction in large corporations like Microsoft, I seriously doubt that there is going to be any change in direction barring a major marketing and sales disaster.  So, I am not hopeful. 
    Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:22 PM
  • Knowing how tough it is to change the direction in large corporations like Microsoft, I seriously doubt that there is going to be any change in direction barring a major marketing and sales disaster.  So, I am not hopeful. 

    Based on what I've seen, Microsoft already has a disaster on its hands. They're just not willing to accept defeat because of how much time and effort they've put into developing Metro and because of all the marketing and publicity that has surrounded the Metro UI. Google did the same thing with Chrome OS, and they are now facing the consequences. Despite the number of people online who think Chrome OS is good on paper, I've never seen a Chromebook that wasn't in an online picture, and as far as I know, Google has sold very vew Chromebooks. They have finally come to their senses and are changing the product to work better. I suspect that something similar will happen with Windows 8.
    Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:56 PM
  • Knowing how tough it is to change the direction in large corporations like Microsoft, I seriously doubt that there is going to be any change in direction barring a major marketing and sales disaster.  So, I am not hopeful. 


    Based on what I've seen, Microsoft already has a disaster on its hands. They're just not willing to accept defeat because of how much time and effort they've put into developing Metro and because of all the marketing and publicity that has surrounded the Metro UI. Google did the same thing with Chrome OS, and they are now facing the consequences. Despite the number of people online who think Chrome OS is good on paper, I've never seen a Chromebook that wasn't in an online picture, and as far as I know, Google has sold very vew Chromebooks. They have finally come to their senses and are changing the product to work better. I suspect that something similar will happen with Windows 8.

    I hope that you are right.  However, I would like to keep reminding people that we are not talking here about just a UI.  Metro, if it was only a UI, it would have been easy to be removed.  But it is not.  It points to a whole new runtime environment, a whole new OS.  Thus, if Microsoft abandons Metro, it would likely have to abandon the whole new runtime environment (WinRT), the Windows Marketplace (which would only sell WinRT apps) and many others.  I just do not see this happening at all.

    What may (or may not) happen is that Microsoft may come up with the capability to run Metro/WinRT apps in a window in the desktop.  It is easy to code for this, but Microsoft does not want to do it for obvious marketing reasons.  The capability exists currently to run Android apps in the Win7 desktop (you can use Bluestacks, for example), so this is hardly impossible.  But it would only happen if Win8 bombs.  If it does not, much of the configuration would remain as is.

    Personally, I think that the users should think about the whole issue carefully.  Metro is not just a UI and Win8 is much more than a Windows version with a new Start Screen.  Matters are more complex than this.

    Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:36 PM

  • What may (or may not) happen is that Microsoft may come up with the capability to run Metro/WinRT apps in a window in the desktop.  It is easy to code for this, but Microsoft does not want to do it for obvious marketing reasons.  The capability exists currently to run Android apps in the Win7 desktop (you can use Bluestacks, for example), so this is hardly impossible.  But it would only happen if Win8 bombs.  If it does not, much of the configuration would remain as is.

    Personally, I think that the users should think about the whole issue carefully.  Metro is not just a UI and Win8 is much more than a Windows version with a new Start Screen.  Matters are more complex than this.

    I once sent an e-mail to Building Windows 8 called "Taking WinRT Beyond Metro" that basically described this very situation. I get tired of reading about how Windows without Metro would lack a "modern computing experience" (which really refers to the use of an app store and direct access to Facebook). This is simply not true, and I get tired of saying this over and over again. WinRT needs to work without Metro, or Windows 8 is unlikley to succeed on non-tablet devices.

    This is a mock-up of what I think Windows 8 should look like. I used Windows Vista as a base because I like the Windows Vista Aero theme and because there were several design mistakes made in the development of Windows 7 that Windows Vista does not contain.
    Windows Vista-based Windows 8 mock-up

    Wednesday, April 11, 2012 12:43 AM

  • What may (or may not) happen is that Microsoft may come up with the capability to run Metro/WinRT apps in a window in the desktop.  It is easy to code for this, but Microsoft does not want to do it for obvious marketing reasons.  The capability exists currently to run Android apps in the Win7 desktop (you can use Bluestacks, for example), so this is hardly impossible.  But it would only happen if Win8 bombs.  If it does not, much of the configuration would remain as is.

    Personally, I think that the users should think about the whole issue carefully.  Metro is not just a UI and Win8 is much more than a Windows version with a new Start Screen.  Matters are more complex than this.

    I once sent an e-mail to Building Windows 8 called "Taking WinRT Beyond Metro" that basically described this very situation. I get tired of reading about how Windows without Metro would lack a "modern computing experience" (which really refers to the use of an app store and direct access to Facebook). This is simply not true, and I get tired of saying this over and over again. WinRT needs to work without Metro, or Windows 8 is unlikley to succeed on non-tablet devices.

    This is a mock-up of what I think Windows 8 should look like. I used Windows Vista as a base because I like the Windows Vista Aero theme and because there were several design mistakes made in the development of Windows 7 that Windows Vista does not contain.


    As to WinRT working without Metro: What is then the point?  The whole idea of WinRT is the creation/enabling of a portable OS with a definitive UI.  If Microsoft is going to jettison Metro (which would never happen), then it must enable something else.  As WinRT stands right now, it cannot support desktop applications.  if it is made to support desktop applications and these applications can run in tablets, the whole idea of developing WinRT and transforming it into a desktop runtime would have been ridiculous as one could have used Win32 from the very beginning.  There is no reason why Win32 cannot provide for "Metro"-style applications.  As it is, there are "Metro" design cues in Office 15, which is a Win32 application.

    Thus, those who envision (and those who hope), that WinRT will get transformed into a runtime allowing for desktop operations (windowing, user management of apps, etc) are simply deluding themselves.  If it is transformed in such a fashion, this whole exercise would simply have been laughable to begin with.  WinRT runtime is there to support the "portable" OS component of Win8 (full screen, automatic control of apps). 

    If eventually MS decides to transform WinRT into something far more intricate and robust, then one would have "re-invented" Windows for just the sake of "re-inventing" it.  Great arguments have been made not only here but in many publications that anything can be coded for Win32.  Thus, the only change would have been a negative one (the total break with backwards compatibility).  WinRT was cobbled together to give "portable" capabilities, to enable automatic application control (essential for limited hardware such as tablets) and to specifically exclude windowing  that UI experts regard is inconsistent with tablet and smartphone use (and I tend to agree). Thus, I would not expect WinRT to support desktop operations at all.

    Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:47 PM
  • WinRT runtime is there to support the "portable" OS component of Win8 (full screen, automatic control of apps).

    That agrees with my statements above that it would work perfect on portable tablet/touch screen computer but not on an offical desktop computer because backwards compatibility would definitely get in the way of bringing it into the workplace in the near future. But I gave up posting big on this awhile ago.


    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda

    Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:59 PM
  • Based on what I've seen, Microsoft already has a disaster on its hands. They're just not willing to accept defeat because of how much time and effort they've put into developing Metro and because of all the marketing and publicity that has surrounded the Metro UI.

    I agree completely. 

    I have always liked switching between operating systems and have run multiple versions of Linux and Windows off and on for years.  I've always come back to Windows to get my work done.  Microsoft previously tried to put a desktop operating system on a phone and that failed miserably, why would they think that forcing a phone/tablet operating system on a desktop user would work any better?

    Having left the IT business, I still help friends and family with their computers and am intimately familiar with their use habits as well as their willingness and ability to deal with change.  Not one person I work with will be able to deal with the fractured nature of the Windows 8 user interface on their desktop computers, nor will they be willing to accept the 'change for the sake of change' that has been imposed by Microsoft.

    I've steered people away from Apple for many years simply due to the extreme cost of the hardware.  That changes with Metro.  Watch for me in the near future in an Apple store willingly paying extra for a system that isn't a kludge.  When someone like me is willing to pay twice as much for a computer to avoid Windows 8 Microsoft truly is going to have a disaster on their hands.



    Friday, April 13, 2012 2:43 PM
  • > Watch for me in the near future in an Apple store willingly
    >paying extra for a system that isn't a kludge.
     
    Mac Mini's are pretty cheap these days.  I've been running one along
    side my menagerie of Windows hardware for years and am fairly happy
    with it.  One warning though, OSX is even more different than the
    difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8, and it too is looking more
    and more tablet like, even on desktops.
     
    One nice thing they did with the tablet UI, kind of like the metro
    screen, is it's shown on top of the desktop. (at least with the current
    version of OSX.)
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Friday, April 13, 2012 3:00 PM
  • One warning though, OSX is even more different than the
    difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8, and it too is looking more
    and more tablet like, even on desktops.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    There are an infinite number of ways to create desktop user interfaces that are attractive, logical and usable and I find it fascinating to see the major differences of each user interface.  Each time I play with a Linux distribution or a Mac I have found there is a learning curve, but those user interfaces have been well thought out and clearly designed for one purpose - ease of use for the desktop user.  I have no problem with adding tablet features or any other kinds of bells and whistles to a desktop interface as long as it doesn't get in the way - after all I'm not using the computer to use the operating system, I'm using it to surf the Web, create a document, take notes, etc.  Windows 8 actually gets in the way of doing the things I come to a computer to do.  For me that makes it an abject failure.





    Friday, April 13, 2012 3:55 PM
  • One warning though, OSX is even more different than the

    difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8, and it too is looking more
    and more tablet like, even on desktops.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    There are an infinite number of ways to create desktop user interfaces that are attractive, logical and usable and I find it fascinating to see the major differences of each user interface.  Each time I play with a Linux distribution or a Mac I have found there is a learning curve, but those user interfaces have been well thought out and clearly designed for one purpose - ease of use for the desktop user.  I have no problem with adding tablet features or any other kinds of bells and whistles to a desktop interface as long as it doesn't get in the way - after all I'm not using the computer to use the operating system, I'm using it to surf the Web, create a document, take notes, etc.  Windows 8 actually gets in the way of doing the things I come to a computer to do.  For me that makes it an abject failure.

    I concur.  There is really no reason for the existence of the "Start Screen" from a usability standpoint in desktops and laptops.  The truth is that it serves only as a Microsoft marketing device.  It is there to condition users and to support the Metro/WinRT apps that Microsoft needs to have developers code (and sell).  Microsoft cannot create a rich ecosystem for its tablets any other way.  The only way is to force desktop users to tabletisize their desktops!!! This would deliver users to developers and populate the MS tablet ecosystem.

    Thus, there is a method to the madness!!!  Now, how well Microsoft's strategy would work would depend on the commercial success of Win8.  Microsoft has already accepted the notion that it would have minimal income from upgrades and it is willing to take this "hit", although it is not major.  Only in Win7, upgrades provided a substantial revenue source.  

    Thus, your opinion really does not matter.  Microsoft has already discounted it.

    Friday, April 13, 2012 5:13 PM
  • Funny thing...  Each of us in our heart of hearts, without actually vocalizing it, believes that Microsoft could actually have created a technical wonder that could have achieved their marketing goals AND at the same time didn't leave its desktop users out in the cold.  But innovative, cutting-edge Engineering isn't what Microsoft excels at for the most part, so...  We have Windows 8 just as it is.

    I mean, just being able to deconfigure the Start screen and return to a Start menu through some obscure settings menu or even the registry would have done the job (remember the "red pill" option?)...  Most users wouldn't know how or think to deconfigure it.  Having easy ways to get to both a Start menu and a Start screen complete with Metro toys wouldn't be bad.  Not actively trying to hobble the desktop (where are those metrics and visual styles controls anyway?  why can't I disable UAC entirely?) would also have been nice.  What they've actually done is virtually spiteful - so much so that even the Marketing people can't even shroud it with Marketeer speak.

    I guess we should have all shut up when the DP was first released, and perhaps they would have left the "red pill option" in place just as it was.

    The funny thing is that the power mongers may think they're actually succeeding in their marketing goals by forcing us through Metro in the CP.  Does the phrase "the operation was a success, though the patient died" come to mind for you as well?  I wonder whether they're going to further the Epic Fail by coding even more things into the OS in the next several releases to try to further close off the ability for users to make Windows 8 into a rational desktop system.  Maybe they should put that effort into re-engineering the whole Desktop/Metro (lack of) integration thing...

    Sigh.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    • Edited by Noel Carboni Friday, April 13, 2012 6:16 PM typo
    Friday, April 13, 2012 6:12 PM
  • Good thing we have 64-bit UEFI to lock W8 into the firmware, eh?


    Please don't start that again. UEFI does not lock Windows 8 into the firmware, nor will it prevent users from installing alternative operating systems (at least, not onto a real PC). While ARM tablets will be restricted to running only Windows 8, complaining about not being able to install Linux on a Windows tablet is like complaining about not being able to install Windows 8 on your iPad. It wasn't designed to run anything other than the factory operating system, so you are not supposed to change it. That is one major difference between PCs and devices. You will be able to change the operating system on a real computer running Windows 8, but not on an ARM device.
    Friday, April 13, 2012 7:03 PM
  • Carboni's post does not mention UEFI. Even if it did, Secure Boot will not prevent us from disabling the Metro Start Screen on x86 PCs.
    Friday, April 13, 2012 8:01 PM
  • I did not say that it is possible to disable Metro on x86 PCs. I merely said that UEFI and Secure Boot would not prevent us from disabling Metro on x86 PCs. In other words, this Metro issue has nothing to do with UEFI. My Windows 8 test PC does not have UEFI firmware, but it is still not possible to disable Metro. UEFI would make no difference.
    Friday, April 13, 2012 8:53 PM
  • Carboni's post does not mention UEFI. Even if it did, Secure Boot will not prevent us from disabling the Metro Start Screen on x86 PCs.
    Let me try to get this straight.  You believe that it is possible to disable the Start Screen in x86 but not in 64-bit systems. Do I have this right?  I know that disabling the Metro screen was possible in the DP version but I am not sure that it is a possibility with the CP version.  I would like to know.  However, in the CP version the Start Button is missing in the desktop, so disabling the Start Screen would create additional complications.  Again, I am certain that workarounds can be created and 3rd party solutions will be coming, but kludges are never good nor stable....nor desirable.
    Friday, April 13, 2012 11:24 PM
  • I don't have much idea why UEFI came up, nor how it really bears much on this discussion.

    But I do have a comment:  Other than a quick stop at the Start screen right after login, is utterly disabling the Start Screen really necessary?  Why?

    I've installed ClassicShell and frankly now I never have to go through the Metro Start screen in normal operation.  I've disabled UAC anyway, so any WinRT app is utterly disabled and there's just no point in going there.  ClassicShell does everything I could want, including sporting a quite functional Search box.

    So, from an individual's system perspective, given the ability to restore removed Windows 8 functionality with 3rd party products really means you'll not need to use the Start screen at all, practically speaking.  Seems to me kind of a non-issue that you have to hop through it once after logging on.  You only see it for a moment, until you hit that big Desktop button.  Personally, I hardly ever would see it, as I only ever reboot for Windows Updates, which is what, once a week?  Conceivably you could make the Desktop button the only button there if the other crap bothers you emotionally.

    Do you feel that there's still some need to invoke the Start screen?  I'm just not seeing it.  Does it just bother you that it's lurking there?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    • Edited by Noel Carboni Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:50 AM removed errant punctuation
    Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:13 AM
  • Well, I've finally 'cut & shut' Win 8 enough to make it 'useable' MY way (Start Orb, Quick-Launch etc), but

    I just cannot believe that a company could take one of the world's best-ever OSes and stuff it up

    so completely.

    Gutting and emasculating its configurability, Secure-Boot, and MS' obsession with the cloud are

    also all major turn-offs. As are changes that seem to have been made purely for the Hell of it.

    Sorry, MS, but there's no way I'll be paying for this.

    I'll be sticking with 7, or going open-source, unless many/most of these are rectified in the retail build.

    This has 'FAIL' written ALL over it, as it currently stands.

    And that's a darned shame, I REALLY wanted to like it....


    • Edited by Max T Saturday, April 14, 2012 10:08 AM
    Saturday, April 14, 2012 10:06 AM
  • I can already hear WinVista456 snivelling that you can disable SecureBoot.  That's mandated with the W8 PC Logo spec, he'll say.  What makes you think the next wave of PCs will be called "PC"s?  That term is suddenly out of vogue.  They'll just call them something else that appeals to children and is good for you.  Then, it's not a PC, and like ARM, the SecureBoot will be mandatory.


    Look at the numbers again. The three numbers in "WindowsVista567" are a reference to Windows 2000/XP (5), Windows Vista (6), and Windows 7 (7). As for ARM PCs, I do not expect desktops or laptops running Windows 8 with ARM CPUs to become anything more than niche products. Besides, anyone who actually wants to make significant changes to their computer would probably buy an x86 PC.
    Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:20 PM
  • Carboni, don't try to diminish it.

    Just tell me how to contain this crap, and keep it away from me and off my desktop.  All of it.

    Your view seems a bit extreme, but honestly we're on the same side of this.

    Just keep in mind what you think is utterly inconsequential - Microsoft is setting the direction (citing "bold leadership") and we've no choice but to follow.  This is the price we pay for getting mass produced software that cost hundreds of millions to develop for practically nothing.

    At this point, assuming no major course changes - and I fully expect them to execute the release of this turkey - we have one of two major options:

    • Upgrade
    • Continue running Windows 7

     

    If we opt for the former, our attentions will necessarily have to turn to "how can we stay current and yet find ways to live with the new version, minimizing exposure to the parts we don't like?"  What you call "diminishing it".  You're going to have to face it sooner or later.

    Maybe the time has not yet come to fully make the switch to this new way of thinking, perhaps continued complaint will bear fruit - but given how little the lumbering giant tends to do after they've shown their cards it's at least time to start bracing for the blow.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:33 PM corrected spacing this Metro editor got wrong
    Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:31 PM
  • Carboni, don't try to diminish it.

    Just tell me how to contain this crap, and keep it away from me and off my desktop.  All of it.

    Your view seems a bit extreme, but honestly we're on the same side of this.

    Just keep in mind what you think is utterly inconsequential - Microsoft is setting the direction (citing "bold leadership") and we've no choice but to follow.  This is the price we pay for getting mass produced software that cost hundreds of millions to develop for practically nothing.

    At this point, assuming no major course changes - and I fully expect them to execute the release of this turkey - we have one of two major options:

    • Upgrade
    • Continue running Windows 7

     

    If we opt for the former, our attentions will necessarily have to turn to "how can we stay current and yet find ways to live with the new version, minimizing exposure to the parts we don't like?"  What you call "diminishing it".  You're going to have to face it sooner or later.

    Maybe the time has not yet come to fully make the switch to this new way of thinking, perhaps continued complaint will bear fruit - but given how little the lumbering giant tends to do after they've shown their cards it's at least time to start bracing for the blow.

      

    -Noel




    I agree with you, MS is not going to change anything regarding Win8.  Thus, users must decide if they are going to (a) upgrade to Win8, (b) stay with Win7 or (c) move to another OS.  All these are viable options.

    In my view, there is absolutely no reason for desktop and laptop owners to upgrade to Win8 in its first two years.  Win8 is simply not a compelling upgrade and in fact, may create certain incompatibilities for very dubious and minor benefits.   In fact, Microsoft does not expect any substantial income from upgrades.  Thus, pre-existing users should stay with Win7 and disregard Win8.  It is the safest course of action and the one with the fewer risks and annoyances.  At this time and for the next two years, one does not have to deal with Win8 if one does not want to.  

    After this period, and depending on developments, users may want to re-appraise their choices.  Personally, I will downgrade to Win7 for any new desktop or laptop that I get in the next couple of years.  This is a proven solution, Win8 does not offer any advantages worth risking anything.  After this period and looking at the evolution of Windows and other desktop OSes, I will make a decision as to what to do.

    Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:43 PM
  • (c) move to another OS.  All these are viable options.

    I think perhaps we have a somewhat different definition of "viable".

    Unless you know of a "bold new" OS I'm not aware of - and OSX / Android / Unix / Linux ain't it - it's hard to see option (c) as "viable" for most data producers inured in the Windows environment.  It's likely to be more "viable" to just stay with Windows 7 for (more than) 2 years than switch to a system we've all known about and avoided up to now for obvious reasons.  But I truly hate that we're forced into "lesser of evils" choices.

    Unfortunately, even if someone were to invent the sexiest, cleanest, bestest OS ever imagined in the next couple of years - and OSX / Android / Unix / Linux just ain't it - it would still be different than the worldwide environment that is Microsoft Windows, and (unless it has 105% compatibility, which may be impossible to achieve) I just can't see that it would be viable.  I seriously doubt that any number of people could engineer such a thing in a few years.

    So we're kind of stuck.  Data producers everywhere are considering taking up that second career as gardeners.

    Microsoft probably has enough resources to fix this, assuming Windows 8 is the flop we all expect it to be.  Windows 9, like 7 following Vista, could conceivably end up being a dynamite system!  And regardless of what the nay-sayers above imply, Windows 8 is not utterly useless - given the right tweaks.  It's just not BETTER than its predecessor, and on THAT we agree.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:26 PM
  • Noel:

    Unix, the real one, still runs much of the world.  It might not be sexy, it might not be as easy as windows, but what it is is flexible. 

    "Sure would be nice if I could..." in the Unix world is solved by putting commands together, done.  There's noting you can't do due to shortsighted limitations built in, in fact just the opposite, everything plays well together, and is DESIGNED to be extensible.

    I'll be jumping ship to Unix if MS doesn't get their act together.  Lots of money in it too.

    DAS

    Saturday, April 14, 2012 8:04 PM
  • (c) move to another OS.  All these are viable options.

    I think perhaps we have a somewhat different definition of "viable".

    Unless you know of a "bold new" OS I'm not aware of - and OSX / Android / Unix / Linux ain't it - it's hard to see option (c) as "viable" for most data producers inured in the Windows environment.  It's likely to be more "viable" to just stay with Windows 7 for (more than) 2 years than switch to a system we've all known about and avoided up to now for obvious reasons.  But I truly hate that we're forced into "lesser of evils" choices.

    I think that running a good Linux distro and running Win32 apps  in VMware Workstation 8 is a credible desktop OS alternative.  One would have access to lots of Linux software (and there is some excellent stuff there) and most of the Win32 apps.  Potentially (and even today), this setup would even allow you to run Win8 specific apps, if you so choose.

    Please note that Linux 3.3 also now runs Android applications.  Thus, such a system can be potentially the best of all worlds - oh, well, you cannot get iOS-  and I wish that a company (any company!!) can put something integrated together (but I would not hold my breath).

    Microsoft is quite scared of VMWare but this company simply does not have the means at this time to take on Microsoft.

    I really do not expect Microsoft to change anything in the short or medium term.  In fact, I believe that the company will double up on Metro.  In fact, there is serious consideration into "Metrosizing" Win7 (a future pack would offer the same Win8 Start Screen in Win7).
    • Edited by ADRz Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:13 AM
    Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:07 AM
  • Answer to the question "How do I disable Metro and bring back the Start Menu" is to install Classic Shell : http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/. Take back your productivity.
    Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:32 AM
  • Yes,

    either install Classic Shell now, or wait for final version of Windows 8. The worlds of simple Metro UI and full-feature desktop UI will be separated to simplify implementation of Windows internals. That should not be a complicated task.

    There were no intentions to use metro on desktop, during the design time. It's purely bureaucratic decision. Subsequently, there was a little set of workarounds devised to glue those two worlds together.


    vjj

    Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:17 PM
  • It goes without saying Microsoft and everyone else want people to subscribe to their services.  The business model of making products to sell is all but dead.

    A generation or two ago people would run, not walk away from anything that proposed to put them "in debt" and require them to pay every month.  Now no one even thinks twice about it.  We're drenched in bills every month designed to soak up whatever pay we've made.  And it's unhealthy as hell for everyone involved except the company getting the monthly payments.

    By the way, I have a Tracfone.  No contract.  But I still have to pay them (rather less than the big plans) for minutes and to remain connected to their setup.  It's the least committal and least intrusive way I could find to have a cell phone for emergencies.

    On the other hand, we recently bought an iPad 2, and for the privilege of being able to use it on the road via the ATT cellular network there's a recurring $25 a month bill.  But no contract.  I could cancel at any time - but I haven't after 4 months.  The usefulness is *just* high enough to warrant parting with a paltry $300 a year on a month by month basis.  You don't even think about how much $25 a month is normally.  Does the phrase "nickel and dime us to death" come to mind?

    Given that Windows 8 appears to have had the least amount of engineering effort put into it of any major Windows version ever released (basically just one big application, a few smaller applications and bugfixes, and some code deletion), it's no wonder they want to change their business model.  It's difficult and expensive to engineer a product that adds enough value that people want to pay for it in a lump sum every couple of years.  But engineer a produt that facilitates peoples' ongoing "inexpensive" subscriptions and BOOM, there's income for life.  Who cares about business growth when you can get people worldwide to send you money for running a server farm?

    Everyone expects Windows 8 to be a flop, and people claim Microsoft isn't expecting to make money from upgrades...  Well what if they make it REALLY inexpensive?  Talk about locking everyone in on a course...

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBook:  
    In development:

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:00 PM
  • Everyone in the metro remove thread in the metro design thread I found another registry hack that someone claims works in consumer preview below:

    REG ADD HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\Explorer /v RPEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0

    Can someone confirm this works?

    Heres the original microsoft answers thread:

    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_8-desktop/voting-about-metro-design-criticism/fc768c1c-733e-42eb-934e-bff97f281493?page=42&tm=1334513840792

    everyone from government to home users are even complaining over in that thread how they hate it. Someone said they run more then 20 apps over in the metro design thread and work for government and said they would buy a android tablet if need be instead of microsofts because of his testing of the stability of the cp and dp versions of windows 8 with metro enabled. But if someone confirms the above all what we said might be void for commerical version. 

    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. - "Sherlock holmes" "speak softly and carry a big stick" - theodore roosevelt. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering - Yoda



    Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:18 PM
  • Everyone in the metro remove thread in the metro design thread I found another registry hack that someone claims works in consumer preview below:

    REG ADD HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\Explorer /v RPEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0

    Can someone confirm this works?

    I wanted to thank you for pointing me to several sites mentioning this, but the sites I went to said it no longer works in the CP version, and I don't want to play the guinea pig. "Vistart"

    seems to be the preferred solution for many people.

    I do not trust free software, and I can see now why so many get defensive, but

    Given that we  trust Microsoft, or more than companies we never heard of, and given that something like a start menu preference is a small thing, this would be the place to ask about putting it back.  They won't, of course, but it sort of negates the purpose of this place to know whatever idea or suggestion will almost certainly be met with resistance, or more likely, ignored, since the final version has almost certainly gelled and they're into the ironing-kinks phase.

    Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:09 PM
  • This thread is being split due to slow loading issues.

    Please continue the discussion at the following link.

    How do I remove Metro in Windows 8 in the Consumer Preview and bring back the Start Menu? Part 2:
    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w8itprogeneral/thread/e3dc41df-afa8-4f8a-82d9-08c2f3a6353f

    Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:51 PM
    Moderator