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Win 8.1 "Blue" continues to disappoint RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • Today, Mary Jo Foley posted an article on "About Microsoft" about the workings of the "New" Start Button

    http://www.zdnet.com/heres-how-the-new-windows-blue-start-button-may-work-7000016042/

    I consider this essentially a "trial balloon" by Microsoft.  As one can see, this "Start Button" hardly achieves anything else beyond making "Metro/Modern" being more disruptive than it is at present.  The reactions to the article were, of course, predictable.  Not much of a surprise, may I say.

    Microsoft is bend on self-destruction and it cannot be denied.  Why, for anybody's sake, do I need to get to a full screen in a 30-inch monitor to see all my applications.  This is a task that the present Start Menu can accomplish in a very small area of the screen without disrupting the rest of my work!  This is not an OS, it is torture.

    Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:15 PM

All replies

  • Further on this, with similar comments to mine, here is an article from ExtremeTech

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/156915-windows-8-1-will-resurrect-the-start-button-but-not-the-start-menu?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ziffdavis%2Fextremetech+%28Extremetech%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

    The author concludes that "alas: it seems Microsoft isn’t quite ready to fully back down from its full-screen folly".

    If things stay very much the same, there would absolute no need to move from Win7.

    Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:28 PM
  • I am dual-booting Windows 8 and Windows 7.  I now use Windows 8 essentially 98% of the time....it's that good!

    Carey Frisch

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:42 AM
  • I run Windows 7 on my main workstation, on which I run VMware and (among others) a Windows 8 Enterprise VM.

    I've done an unprecedented amount of tweaking to Windows 8, most recently with the addition of a 3rd party tool that actually restores Aero Glass effects and - more importantly - the ability to override the theme resources without hacking system files, which means I can actually get drop shadows around my desktop windows again.  What a tremendous improvement in visual usability this one little thing gives!

    I appreciate your ability to boot either, Carey, but since I'm able to change back and forth on a whim, I can on a moment's notice be using one system or another - I don't even need to boot, I just minimize or restore the Windows 8 VMware VM.  This environment provides me a FAR better ability to judge the differences between the two systems side by side than any "immersive" experience (such as dual booting).

    After all this research, after all this discussion, after all this tweaking, I'm finally starting to feel that if I were forced to run Windows 8 (e.g., on a new machine or something), given all my "To Work" options and 3rd party software I *might* not delete it and seek a Windows 7 installation disc - at least not right away....  It's that good! 

    Yep, seems to be about the right time for Windows 8.1 to come along and break all that.  I can hardly wait to go through it all again.  :D

    One good thing I have to say for Windows 8 - I'm selling a lot of books to people who desperately want it to work better!  Thank you Microsoft!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:36 AM
  • I run Windows 7 on my main workstation, on which I run VMware and (among others) a Windows 8 Enterprise VM.

    I've done an unprecedented amount of tweaking to Windows 8, most recently with the addition of a 3rd party tool that actually restores Aero Glass effects and - more importantly - the ability to override the theme resources without hacking system files, which means I can actually get drop shadows around my desktop windows again.  What a tremendous improvement in visual usability this one little thing gives!

    I appreciate your ability to boot either, Carey, but since I'm able to change back and forth on a whim, I can on a moment's notice be using one system or another - I don't even need to boot, I just minimize or restore the Windows 8 VMware VM.  This environment provides me a FAR better ability to judge the differences between the two systems side by side than any "immersive" experience (such as dual booting).

    After all this research, after all this discussion, after all this tweaking, I'm finally starting to feel that if I were forced to run Windows 8 (e.g., on a new machine or something), given all my "To Work" options and 3rd party software I *might* not delete it and seek a Windows 7 installation disc - at least not right away....  It's that good! 

    Yep, seems to be about the right time for Windows 8.1 to come along and break all that.  I can hardly wait to go through it all again.  :D

    One good thing I have to say for Windows 8 - I'm selling a lot of books to people who desperately want it to work better!  Thank you Microsoft!

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    On the basis of the full description of Win8.1, I intend to remain with Win7 in the foreseeable future.  I have no intention whatsoever to contaminate my systems with Win8.x in any of its flavors. 

    Even assuming that I install Win8.x, I would be booting directly in the desktopI do not want to be exposed to anything full screen and I do not see any new functionality in the desktop.  Thus, what's the possible justification for even considering Win8.1?   I cannot think of a single one.  And if one mentions the faster booting times one more time, I 'll scream.  A few seconds is totally irrelevant in a work day!

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:16 PM
  • I wonder what the changes in app behavior will do to all the existing apps. According to Microsoft, one of the big selling points for developers was that they never had to deal with less than 1024x768: "As we worked on different design layouts for apps, we found that the higher the minimum resolution, the richer and more tailored the app could be. We wanted developers to be able to tailor and refine their layouts to make use of every available pixel on 1024x768, without having to compromise the layout for a smaller resolution."

    Now you can have multiple Metro tiled screens. Does that mean each one gets less than 1024x768?

    Kind of reminds me of how Windows 1 looks...lol

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:38 PM
  • Microsoft has learned nothing.

    They claim to be responding to user feedback, yet still keep people guessing as to what changes are coming. Clearly they are still trying to force their vision down everyone's throat, while making the fewest changes possible to keep people from barfing it back at them.

    The Microsoft ecosystem is hemorrhaging developers.

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:45 PM
  • What a disappointment.  It's stunning how little Microsoft has heard or listened to their customers.

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:01 PM
  • I wonder what the changes in app behavior will do to all the existing apps. According to Microsoft, one of the big selling points for developers was that they never had to deal with less than 1024x768: "As we worked on different design layouts for apps, we found that the higher the minimum resolution, the richer and more tailored the app could be. We wanted developers to be able to tailor and refine their layouts to make use of every available pixel on 1024x768, without having to compromise the layout for a smaller resolution."

    Now you can have multiple Metro tiled screens. Does that mean each one gets less than 1024x768?

    Kind of reminds me of how Windows 1 looks...lol


    Well app developers already had to put up with snapping Metro apps, so the good apps can already handle this situation. Those that can't will get a scrollbar like they do now presumably.
    Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:01 PM
  • I wonder what the changes in app behavior will do to all the existing apps. According to Microsoft, one of the big selling points for developers was that they never had to deal with less than 1024x768: "As we worked on different design layouts for apps, we found that the higher the minimum resolution, the richer and more tailored the app could be. We wanted developers to be able to tailor and refine their layouts to make use of every available pixel on 1024x768, without having to compromise the layout for a smaller resolution."

    Now you can have multiple Metro tiled screens. Does that mean each one gets less than 1024x768?

    Kind of reminds me of how Windows 1 looks...lol


    Metro/Modern is highly reminiscent of Windows 1 with its full screen or tiled screen presentation.  Of course, at that point Microsoft adopted the "tiled" screen approach (now "snap") because of possible intellectual property conflicts.  Overlapping and freely moving windows are, of course, far superior because they allow the user to configure the screen any way the user wants.  This is what graphical user interfaces are all about!!!
    Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:01 PM
  • Microsoft has learned nothing.

    They claim to be responding to user feedback, yet still keep people guessing as to what changes are coming. Clearly they are still trying to force their vision down everyone's throat, while making the fewest changes possible to keep people from barfing it back at them.

    The Microsoft ecosystem is hemorrhaging developers.

    Today, Microsoft released up-to-date information regarding Win8.1.  This is how we know how the "Start Button" would look like In fact, the "Start Button" is just a shortcut to the "Start Screen".  I guess it may help those who do not have Windows button on their keyboard.  So, if you want to check your apps, you are shoved to a full screen.  You know, you must be immersed in a full screen to find the application you were looking for.  Microsoft has decided that your eyesight is not good enough to deal with the small windows of the Win7 Start Menu. LOL
    Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:05 PM
  • What a disappointment.  It's stunning how little Microsoft has heard or listened to their customers.


    Why listen? They think they have you by the b***s!!! Where else are you going to go???  Linux? So, they figured that if they grab you by the b***s, your heart would certainly follow!!!
    Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:07 PM
  • I wonder what the changes in app behavior will do to all the existing apps. According to Microsoft, one of the big selling points for developers was that they never had to deal with less than 1024x768: "As we worked on different design layouts for apps, we found that the higher the minimum resolution, the richer and more tailored the app could be. We wanted developers to be able to tailor and refine their layouts to make use of every available pixel on 1024x768, without having to compromise the layout for a smaller resolution."

    Now you can have multiple Metro tiled screens. Does that mean each one gets less than 1024x768?

    Kind of reminds me of how Windows 1 looks...lol


    Well app developers already had to put up with snapping Metro apps, so the good apps can already handle this situation. Those that can't will get a scrollbar like they do now presumably.

    I can only laugh with this one!!!  Forward to the past!!! Snapping applications were all the rage in Windows 1.0 (assuming that anybody did run Win 1.0)!!  It just took only 30 years and we are back to where we started from (Metro fanboys will claim that this is ***progress***).  I guess in all these decades, we had not figured out that full screen applications were "immersive" and that a bare-bones, simplistic OS is "digitally authentic"!!!  Who thinks of these?  He/She needs an award on creative fiction. 

    One has difficulty deciding to laugh or to cry!!!

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:12 PM
  • Long live windows 8, till the 8.9 release after that you will be into 9.

    You obviously have no idea how Microsoft numbers things:

    Other people do it the boring way, i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

    Microsoft does things like: 1, 2, 3, 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 8 or Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One

    Given their history, Microsoft is likely to name new versions 'Windows Q', or 'Windows Partridge in a pear tree', or 'Windows: "You have no choice" edition'.

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:57 PM
  • Window Singular (Version 1.0)

    All you ever wanted to do was look at one app.  Really, honest.  That other stuff was way too stressful.  And the fonts were too small.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:29 PM
  • Window Singular (Version 1.0)

    All you ever wanted to do was look at one app.  Really, honest.  That other stuff was way too stressful.  And the fonts were too small.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Yeah...that would be a good name!!  Microsoft is eager to wean us away from large monitors.  For its OSes, a 10'' inch monitor is all that you need.  This fixes up everything (and preserves your eyesight).  You just do not get the whole idea of "digitally authentic", I guess.
    Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:44 PM
  • Ed Bott's latest report: Windows 8.1 unveiled

    Carey Frisch

    Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:39 PM
  • Ed Bott's latest report: Windows 8.1 unveiled

    From within that article:

    The Metro-style PC Settings section is dramatically expanded and includes virtually every Windows setting that was previously part of the desktop Control Panel.

    Gee, I hope this doesn't mean Microsoft thinks they can get away with removing all the desktop-based dialogs for configuration.  That would just be stoopid, even in light of what egregiously bad things they've done already.

    The single most common complaint I hear about Windows 8 involves the jarring shift when you move from the desktop environment to the completely alien environment of the Start screen. A new option in Windows 8.1 addresses this concern by allowing you to use the desktop background on the Start screen.

    OMG, how long must this utter stoopidity continue?  MORONS, it's not the background image changing that's jarring.  It's the loss of the visibility of all the work in progress!

    Can't Microsoft get some decision-makers on board with IQs greater than the ambient temperature?  And I'm not talking about Phoenix, either.

    Ed FanBott seems to think this is a surprisingly big update.  Funny thing, it all seems to be window dressing changes.

    Sounds like more of the same:  New and definitely anything but improved.  Sigh.

    I am curious to hear about the File Explorer makeover, though.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Friday, May 31, 2013 1:02 AM
  • I think Microsoft firmly believes that there are three major complaints about Windows 8:

    1) users complain about being dropped into the classic environment to do system functions - hence the expanded control-panel-like Metro functionality.

    2) Users complain about a missing start button in desktop - hence the start button was added back. Note that a start "menu" doesn't figure in at all

    3) Users complain about being only able to have full-screen apps - hence we now get some kind of tiled Metro apps.

    I firmly believe Microsoft thinks the start-screen is a major advance in functionality (and it is for touchpads) and they have decided they will go down that path exclusively no matter what. I think they have limited interest in how inefficient it is for desktop users as their focus is squarely on the tablet/pad.

    Friday, May 31, 2013 2:42 AM
  • I think Microsoft firmly believes that there are three major complaints about Windows 8:

    1) users complain about being dropped into the classic environment to do system functions - hence the expanded control-panel-like Metro functionality.

    2) Users complain about a missing start button in desktop - hence the start button was added back. Note that a start "menu" doesn't figure in at all

    3) Users complain about being only able to have full-screen apps - hence we now get some kind of tiled Metro apps.

    I firmly believe Microsoft thinks the start-screen is a major advance in functionality (and it is for touchpads) and they have decided they will go down that path exclusively no matter what. I think they have limited interest in how inefficient it is for desktop users as their focus is squarely on the tablet/pad.

    Absolutely.  They are only addressing the complaints of the tablet users of Win8.  In fact, they are continuing down the road of making the desktop unusable.  If one comes to think about it, their only concession to desktop users, the booting directly into the desktop is rendered totally meaningless because one would have to interact so extensively with the "Metro/Modern" subsystem.  

    The way I see it, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to move from Win7 to Win8.1.  Yes, it is possible to transform Win8.1 to Win7 with some 3rd party utilities (assuming that they still work) but why?  

    I am astounded by the fact that going back to Windows 1.0 is regarded as progress.  But I am sure that some misguided fanboy would claim otherwise.

    Friday, May 31, 2013 3:07 AM
  • End of the year support/updates end for win 7

    Friday, May 31, 2013 3:31 AM
  • End of the year support/updates end for win 7

    You are confused.  The end of support for Win7 is 2020 but if history is any guide, this would be stretched to 2025.
    Friday, May 31, 2013 4:16 AM
  • End of the year support/updates end for win 7

    Funny thing, that...  Even if end of support were approaching (which it's not), I still get Windows Updates for my Vista and XP systems...

    And EVEN IF updates were slated to stop, would that be a bad thing?  Do we WANT today's Microsoft updating our working systems?  It's not like they're doing the right things to the system software any more.  Note that IE10 brought degradations in usability over IE9, for example.

    And I don't know about you but it's not like I'm having to bend over backwards to avoid Windows 7 bugs...  My computing experience right now is the best it's ever been in my life, actually, and that's no exaggeration.  I manage a number of Windows systems in an engineering environment and I still get to concentrate on my work (vs. system management) 99%+ of the time.  They all just work...

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, May 31, 2013 10:28 AM
  • Yes, it is possible to transform Win8.1 to Win7 with some 3rd party utilities (assuming that they still work) 

    We don't actually know what will work yet.  Much will be revealed with the public preview, but even then - as evidenced by the underhanded crap they pulled right at Windows 8 RTM release - we won't know what will have to be done to Windows 8.1 to make it usable until after it's actually released.

    It's taken 7 or 8 months to settle Windows 8 RTM down to where it's nearly as usable as Windows 7.

    Based on the hints we're hearing, I'm not at all convinced Windows 8.1 is going to lend itself to that same activity.  Much of what's had to be done to 8 to restore functionality is based on vestiges of what was being actively removed at the time of release still being there.  The more Microsoft deletes, the less capable Windows 8.x is going to be able to be returned to decent computer operating system functionality.  The whole exercise is akin to padding upstream in the Spring...  The river keeps flowing harder in the opposite direction, and progress continues to be hindered ever more greatly.

    Much as we die hard computer users don't want to admit it, Microsoft really is leaving us all behind to go pursue powering toys.  Sure, things are still pretty fine for now - we have our Windows 7 systems still working, and even 8 isn't bad if you tweak the living crap out of it.  But we are hanging over a cliff and our fingernails are starting to leave marks on the rock above...

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, May 31, 2013 10:38 AM

  • Much as we die hard computer users don't want to admit it, Microsoft really is leaving us all behind to go pursue powering toys.  Sure, things are still pretty fine for now - we have our Windows 7 systems still working, and even 8 isn't bad if you tweak the living crap out of it.  But we are hanging over a cliff and our fingernails are starting to leave marks on the rock above...

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Yes, desktop computing is becoming a thing of the past.  Sure, it would continue in every place where there is actual work that needs to be done, but it would no longer be a "consumer" product.  Microsoft seems to have decided on this.  Well, it is, of course, its product and can decide what it wants to do with it.  Unfortunately, it has decided on its own marginalization, it seems to me.

    The way I see it, very soon Android will appear as a legitimate challenger to Windows.  In the tablet space, Android certainly beats the stuffing out of Win8.  In the laptop space, what Android needs is a method by which Windows programs can run within the Android OS.  This is hardly impossible; the only reason that it has not been enabled is because Android laptops are only just now appearing.  But if they become popular, who knows?

    I think that Win8.x will fail in "devices".  It would not go too far in tablets, and even in laptops, Android may eat its lunch.  Betweeen Metro/WinRT and Android, Android is my clear favorite (and it should be for anybody who is looking at it objectively).  For the time being, I have absolutely no need and no desire to buy a Win8 tablet and I think that this would be the typical position of the vast majority of consumers.  So far, I have to say that Microsoft's gambit for the mobile OS market is faltering seriously.  Win8.1 has been designed for this in mind, not for desktop/laptop users.

    Friday, May 31, 2013 2:02 PM
  • We don't actually know what will work yet.  Much will be revealed with the public preview, but even then - as evidenced by the underhanded crap they pulled right at Windows 8 RTM release - we won't know what will have to be done to Windows 8.1 to make it usable until after it's actually released.


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Well, we will know details in June but I have already lost interest, anyway.  There is nothing here for me. 

    Today's articles echo very much the same point.  Simon Bisson (ZDNet) says:

    "Despite what some pundits are saying, Windows 8.1 isn't a reversal of the Windows 8 changes. If anything, the Redmond giant is doubling down on that strategy, with new Bing services powering Windows 8.1's search, with SkyDrive powering its storage, with IE 11 using cloud sync — and with new devices rumoured to be following in the footsteps of the two initial Surface tablets.

    There are also new Bing Windows Store apps as part of the standard install, and new features in the existing bundled apps.

    Microsoft's transition from a software development business to a services company is set to be one of the biggest corporate changes we've seen, affecting everything about the way the company does business."

    This is very much what is happening.  Of course, Microsoft would try to muddy the waters, but it is all Metro/Modern all the time!!

    Friday, May 31, 2013 4:35 PM
  • it is all Metro/Modern all the time!!

    Certainly it will be easier for them to release improvement upon improvement on that than to try to improve a desktop system that was already powerful, polished, useful, and perfectly stable.

    Perhaps they'll make IE11 again use color-assist in its font smoothing and all the <insert favorite euphemism for sheep here> will ooh and ahh at how much it's been improved.  Hey, it'll be better than a sharp stick in the eye, which is basically what using IE10 in Win8 feels like now.

    But more likely they'll remove the color-assisted font-smoothing from the rest of the system.

    Care to wager which it will be?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, May 31, 2013 7:58 PM
  • it is all Metro/Modern all the time!!

    Certainly it will be easier for them to release improvement upon improvement on that than to try to improve a desktop system that was already powerful, polished, useful, and perfectly stable.

    Perhaps they'll make IE11 again use color-assist in its font smoothing and all the <insert favorite euphemism for sheep here> will ooh and ahh at how much it's been improved.  Hey, it'll be better than a sharp stick in the eye, which is basically what using IE10 in Win8 feels like now.

    But more likely they'll remove the color-assisted font-smoothing from the rest of the system.

    Care to wager which it will be?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel.

    The latter is by far more likely. 

    Win7 Pro represents right now the best and most serviceable desktop/laptop OS.  Any further discussion on this issue is really a waste of time.

    In terms of a mobile OS, I vote for Android.  Android supports very high resolutions, it has a fully-fledged filing system (unlike iOS) and it works great with pointing devices (mice, touchpads and trackballs).  It is more capable than WinRT and more appropriate for mobile platforms.  Android laptops would become more and more prevalent and they would be able to run Windows binaries when these programs move to the cloud and become "software as a service". 

    To a certain degree, you can get there with "Windows Azure".  Sure, it is expensive but you can create in Azure any computer, running any OS that I can access (why not?) even from a non-Windows device. 

    Friday, May 31, 2013 11:08 PM
  • Win7 Pro represents right now the best and most serviceable desktop/laptop OS

    IMO, it's Windows 7 Ultimate, but that's splitting hairs.  It DOES point out the glaring fact that there is no Windows 8 Ultimate, though.  That was just one more nail in its coffin.  I'd settle for Enterprise, as I don't give a hoot about Windows Media Center, BUT...  I can't just buy one copy of Windows 8 Enterprise.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 12:44 AM
  • W8Enterprise doesn't really give much to anyone but an enterprise connected system anyway. Win7Ultimate only gave bitlocker and languages over win7pro, both of which are in win8pro.

    And the Win8Ent isn't much use outside of an enterprise:

    Windows on a stick (why do I think of jeff Dunham?) - only useful if the target systems allow it (i.e. usb boot)

    Direct Access - seamless vpn if your routers are configured for it

    Branch Cache - faster connection to server 2012 over slow networks

    Applocker - can't see much use for it at the moment

    VDI - more citrix-like capabilities talking to server 2012

    Automatic side-load of apps from corporate app store - need a corporate app store

    probably great if I am a big enterprise and using server 2012 (we are still on 2003 for our servers), otherwise meh

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:42 AM
  • Win7 Pro represents right now the best and most serviceable desktop/laptop OS

    IMO, it's Windows 7 Ultimate, but that's splitting hairs.  It DOES point out the glaring fact that there is no Windows 8 Ultimate, though.  That was just one more nail in its coffin.  I'd settle for Enterprise, as I don't give a hoot about Windows Media Center, BUT...  I can't just buy one copy of Windows 8 Enterprise.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    I do have Windows Ultimate in all my systems but I realize that the only real additions are BitLocker and the Language Pack (why?).  Microsoft was supposed to deliver a lot more functionality but it did not.  Microsoft promises!!!
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:13 PM
  • 8.1 is not even out yet and already people are unfairly judging. All the people that have tried it who are not involved with Microsoft Development , are using a pirated copy from a illegal source.  Some of the so called experts, posted images of windows 8.1 on their websites and detailed in a report about windows 8.1. How reliable can that be coming from a pirate.

    Wrong again.  Microsoft provided a lot of details yesterday, the leaked builds were officially "leaked" and Microsoft continues to provide additional information.  So, we know lots about Win8.1 to render a judgement.  I think that, on the main, the judgement is "thumbs down" .  Microsoft probably does not care because it thinks that all the tablet users will come streaming to its door (get a clue Microsoft: it is not happening).  Win8.1 actually manages to insult by utilizing a Start Button that simply takes user to much more Metro than ever before.
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:26 PM
  • No wrong. its not yesterday report or last weeks report its a month ago report,  and we've been talking about 8.1 a month ago and even you yourself linked a few pirates who had to download and install the build to find out.
    Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:55 PM
  • No wrong. its not yesterday report or last weeks report its a month ago report,  and we've been talking about 8.1 a month ago and even you yourself linked a few pirates who had to download and install the build to find out.

    Do at least a basic search before replying, would you?  So what, a detailed announcement by a Microsoft VP is not enough for you?

    http://betanews.com/2013/05/30/microsoft-officially-confirms-what-we-already-know-about-windows-8-1/

    Saturday, June 1, 2013 10:53 PM
  • Microsoft Corp. announced its plans for Windows 8.1 in early May, but it didn't offer details about what it will include until Thursday. The Redmond, Wash., company will provide a more extensive tour of Windows 8.1 and several new applications built into the upgrade at a conference for programmers in San Francisco, scheduled to begin June 26.

    I need not to say more, everything before Thursday was Info and pic websites used. Pirated copies of testers and developers, some who are pirates, not approved by MS





    source, MSDN, CBC News, Fox news, CNN
    • Edited by colakid Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:21 AM
    Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:10 AM
  • How reliable can that be coming from a pirate.

    Probably more reliable than the spin coming out of Microsoft these days.

    Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:39 PM
  • 8.1 is not even out yet and already people are unfairly judging.

    You make a good point. I suspect most of the grumbling was a hope that the posters favorite missing feature had been added back in and the reality that it appears it will not be so makes for unhappy people.

    While this is still just the first round of info, it seems clear that Microsoft is heading down the "All Metro All the Time" path, which doesn't give desktop users much to be happy about since most desktop PC users feel the Metro environment is inferior to classic desktop. We will see if the few bones thrown to desktop users (3 metro apps at once on 2-27" displays? gasp!) do anything.

    Mark

    Monday, June 3, 2013 2:41 PM
  • NuMicrosoft does hate the customers indeed. Spend some time reading then various posts by MS reps and you get the picture.

    Microsofties are pissed at the longevity of XP and the success of the iPad. The iPad because Microsoft had a tablet solution almost ten years before the iPad and it flopped. They can't wrap around the fact that it was because they just put XP on a tablet, while iOS is truly optimized for that format. They seem to interpret it instead in the vein that the customers are stupid and fall for Apple's hype.

    Vista's rejection by the public and even Windows 7's failing to reduce XP's marketshare gets interpreted by them that customers just flat out hate anything Microsoft and are blinded by Apple's toys.

    All this led to two things: Metro and the "devices and services" transformation. Customers are stupid and hateful, so they need to hate back by shoving metro in their face, whether they want it or not. And since customers stay on Microsoft software for decades, but are willing to "give Apple money every year", we need to clap down on the concept of licensing software and instead force them all on subscription for all eternity. Pay up or die.

    The more liberties the customers lose that way, the better. Serves them right.

    And you can forget it that Microsoft will take back metro. No way. Windows blue is actually a doubling-down on metro! If that will fail too, they will respond with EVEN MORE forced metro. Probably abandoning the classic control panel in the next Windows revision. It's a lot like the hardcore Linuxers around Stallman in the past: Linux is perfect, the only problem is the distros are not fossy enough (thus Debian and gNewSense were born). Android is successful because it's not ideological (unlike NuMicrosoft and the FSF) and "tainted" the system with closed stuff.

    Metro is also far more suitable for the "services" part; you just can't shove outlook.com, skype and bing in desktop mode as obnoxiously as you can do it in the start screen.

    NuMicrosoft in a nutshell: More hate, more metro, more restrictions.

    Monday, June 3, 2013 3:11 PM
  • How can you even say Windows 7 failed to reduce XP's marketshare? It did by a lot. And that was without the 6 years of no new OS during the explosion of personal computing.

    Monday, June 3, 2013 3:19 PM
  • XP is at almost 40%, and MS hates that.
    Monday, June 3, 2013 3:31 PM
  • 8.1 is not even out yet and already people are unfairly judging.

    You make a good point. I suspect most of the grumbling was a hope that the posters favorite missing feature had been added back in and the reality that it appears it will not be so makes for unhappy people.

    While this is still just the first round of info, it seems clear that Microsoft is heading down the "All Metro All the Time" path, which doesn't give desktop users much to be happy about since most desktop PC users feel the Metro environment is inferior to classic desktop. We will see if the few bones thrown to desktop users (3 metro apps at once on 2-27" displays? gasp!) do anything.

    Mark

    Right on the point, Mark.

    In fact, my assessment is that even the desktop users would have to deal much more with "Metro" in Win8.1 than they had to in Win8.0.   In addition, Win8.1 may even "break" the 3rd party tool.  Eventually, of course, these tools would not work because their "hooks" on Windows code would evaporate.  However, considering that much of the 8.1 development was set during the Sinofski era, this does not come as much of a surprise.

    Monday, June 3, 2013 4:01 PM
  • NuMicrosoft does hate the customers indeed. Spend some time reading then various posts by MS reps and you get the picture.

    Microsofties are pissed at the longevity of XP and the success of the iPad. The iPad because Microsoft had a tablet solution almost ten years before the iPad and it flopped. They can't wrap around the fact that it was because they just put XP on a tablet, while iOS is truly optimized for that format. They seem to interpret it instead in the vein that the customers are stupid and fall for Apple's hype.

    Vista's rejection by the public and even Windows 7's failing to reduce XP's marketshare gets interpreted by them that customers just flat out hate anything Microsoft and are blinded by Apple's toys.

    All this led to two things: Metro and the "devices and services" transformation. Customers are stupid and hateful, so they need to hate back by shoving metro in their face, whether they want it or not. And since customers stay on Microsoft software for decades, but are willing to "give Apple money every year", we need to clap down on the concept of licensing software and instead force them all on subscription for all eternity. Pay up or die.

    The more liberties the customers lose that way, the better. Serves them right.

    And you can forget it that Microsoft will take back metro. No way. Windows blue is actually a doubling-down on metro! If that will fail too, they will respond with EVEN MORE forced metro. Probably abandoning the classic control panel in the next Windows revision. It's a lot like the hardcore Linuxers around Stallman in the past: Linux is perfect, the only problem is the distros are not fossy enough (thus Debian and gNewSense were born). Android is successful because it's not ideological (unlike NuMicrosoft and the FSF) and "tainted" the system with closed stuff.

    Metro is also far more suitable for the "services" part; you just can't shove outlook.com, skype and bing in desktop mode as obnoxiously as you can do it in the start screen.

     NuMicrosoft in a nutshell: More hate, more metro, more restrictions.


    I am not sure that hate motivates Microsoft.  I think lots of the motivation stems from fear.  It is the fear of been left behind in some kind of an imagined future in which every PC would be a tablet.  Then, one has the typical group-think that develops in corporations.  "Ooohh, the customers did not like Metro but this is because we did not do it right and we did not give as much of it as we could!!!",  Thus, Microsoft is attempting to do "Metro" right in Win8.1   Basically, the designer's view is that UI designs much be imposed on recalcitrant users for their own good and if you have a design in front of their faces for long enough, they would eventually like it (.....or not!!). 
    Monday, June 3, 2013 4:08 PM
  • I am not sure that hate motivates Microsoft. 

    There's a lot of spite and malevolence towards the customers. The start button issue is a great example. The way that thing is fixed is pure venom against the users. Pretty much everyone who complained about the start button meant the loss of menu as well. Just adding the sprite back but not fixing the actual behavior that caused the outrage is Microsoft's way to laugh at their customers. They can't be so stupid to think that most complaints were just about the loss of the bitmap in the corner, and not the functionality.

    The new Xbox is so ridden with DRM and restrictions it's like straight out of some bad sci-fi (it surpasses Orwell's telescreen in capability already). No other company is currently so extreme at ridiculing and limiting their customers than NuMicrosoft. Apple is the epitome of openness in comparison.

    Monday, June 3, 2013 5:58 PM
  • The new Xbox is so ridden with DRM and restrictions it's like straight out of some bad sci-fi (it surpasses Orwell's telescreen in capability already). No other company is currently so extreme at ridiculing and limiting their customers than NuMicrosoft. Apple is the epitome of openness in comparison.

    You are right, of course. It's a shame, since it wasn't that long ago that I used to tell people who'd listen how much more draconian Apple was with their customers than Microsoft. However, With Windows 8 and Xbox One, Microsoft has clearly outdone Apple in the user manipulation and cruelty department.

    I currently have two original Xboxes, three Xbox 360's and a Kinect. There are four people in my household who regularly use Live and have separate accounts. After the final straw of finding out that game discs for the Xbox One will install only under a single Live profile and require a fee to be used by anyone else (a second family member, etc.), we've collectively decided that there will never be an Xbox One in our house. We will not be renewing our accounts.

    On the other hand, I guess I should thank Microsoft since I will be able to use the extra money I'm not spending on their products to upgrade my Linux based home theater / gaming PC hardware. Also, my Kinect is being re-purposed as a 3D scanner on a Linux computer driving my open source 3D printer.  :)

    Monday, June 3, 2013 6:31 PM
  • I am not sure that hate motivates Microsoft. 

    There's a lot of spite and malevolence towards the customers. The start button issue is a great example. The way that thing is fixed is pure venom against the users. Pretty much everyone who complained about the start button meant the loss of menu as well. Just adding the sprite back but not fixing the actual behavior that caused the outrage is Microsoft's way to laugh at their customers. They can't be so stupid to think that most complaints were just about the loss of the bitmap in the corner, and not the functionality.

    The new Xbox is so ridden with DRM and restrictions it's like straight out of some bad sci-fi (it surpasses Orwell's telescreen in capability already). No other company is currently so extreme at ridiculing and limiting their customers than NuMicrosoft. Apple is the epitome of openness in comparison.

    Microsoft, with restoring the Start Button but not the menu, has added insult to injury.  Now, the best I can do in a 30'' inch monitor is click this Start Button to get a full size window listing my applications!!  This is something that the old Start Menu managed to deal in a tiny window!!!  Hey, how about this for progress!!

    The reality is, of course, that Win8.x is not designed for desktops/ laptops.  It is designed for small screens, no more than 11''-inch, and with a resolution of 1024 x 768.  Since this is the default, this is why you getting all the full-size screens.  In fact, during the period of "gestation" of this OS, Sinofski explained in detail as to why Microsoft was targeting small monitors (and, of course, tablets). 

    Microsoft still believes that Win8.x would be experienced (and bought) mainly in tablets and small ultrabooks.  Microsoft it totally (and I emphasize, totally) convinced that anything larger than 11'' inches would shortly be a thing of the past.  Thus, Microsoft is not even considering adapting the behavior of the OS for larger monitors.  As Sinofski pointed out, monitors larger than 15'' inches are utilized by a tiny minority of users, and thus, are not a target for development.  Win8.1 has been designed to mainly support the new generation of Surfaces (10'' and 8'' inches).  Microsoft is in the process of becoming a "devices and services" company. In that context, the OS is developed to support mainly the company's own devices.

    The best way to view Win8.1 is something like iOS that may be sold (but not really designed) for hardware configurations other than the devices engineered by Microsoft.  Win8.1 is essentially a "Surface"-directed OS.  Its utility in hardware much different from that of Microsoft's Surface is seriously compromised.

    In summary, Microsoft is executing as expected its transformation to a "devices and services" company.  In that context, the term NuMicrosoft is absolutely correct.    Progressively, Windows would be more and more customized for the Microsoft devices, to a point that it would no longer be installable to non-Windows hardware, very much like iOS.  Win8.x may represent the last OS that would be user-installable.  Subsequent versions would be sold only as part of the hardware and they would not be installable in anything else. 

    From Microsoft's point of view, this makes perfect sense.  It derives most of its Windows income from licenses sold to OEMs.  It hardly gets any income from upgrades.  Fragmentation is not a concern (it has dealt with XP being a serious % of usage for many years).  If it can also sell lots of hardware at relatively high prices, it may start moving to Apple-size income capabilities.  Then, corralling users in services and getting subscription rates solidifies annual income without any need for a strong marketing effort.  It all makes perfect sense.

    Unfortunately, you have the fanboys here who do not even realize that they are the food in their own barbeque.


    • Edited by ADRz Monday, June 3, 2013 11:35 PM
    Monday, June 3, 2013 11:33 PM
  • Microsoft still believes that Win8.x would be experienced (and bought) mainly in tablets and small ultrabooks.

    And since they're such a small "one trick pony" company, of course they can't possibly be working on data producer systems at the same time.

    Could it be Microsoft management just can't juggle more than one ball?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:06 PM
  • I didn't know anything about the xbox-1 until reading this post so I did a little checking. Wow, is all I can say. Always-on camera sensitive enough to recognize facial expressions and recording everyone's every movement and blatantly defended by Microsoft as saying its needed to target ads. Combined with the restrictions on existing games (360 games will be tied to a specific live account and cant be played by anyone else)

    The company that feels it is ok to push this onto customers in order to make more profit, will not have any trouble abandoning the win32 desktop because it doesn't make as much money as the app-store Metro side. I forsee very little for desktop users to cheer about in the coming years.

    Mark

    Tuesday, June 4, 2013 4:08 PM
  • I didn't know anything about the xbox-1 until reading this post so I did a little checking. Wow, is all I can say. Always-on camera sensitive enough to recognize facial expressions and recording everyone's every movement and blatantly defended by Microsoft as saying its needed to target ads. Combined with the restrictions on existing games (360 games will be tied to a specific live account and cant be played by anyone else)

    The company that feels it is ok to push this onto customers in order to make more profit, will not have any trouble abandoning the win32 desktop because it doesn't make as much money as the app-store Metro side. I forsee very little for desktop users to cheer about in the coming years.

    Mark

    Of course.  This is to be expected until the tablet craze runs its course and somebody finds out that the consumers have bought all the tablets they wanted to buy and this segment is no longer growing.

    I propose that we pay very little attention to what Microsoft is doing over the next few years.  We have a desktop OS that works (Win 7); let's keep on doing useful work.  Eventually, other desktop alteratives will appear and we can then re-appraise.

    Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:02 PM
  • Microsoft still believes that Win8.x would be experienced (and bought) mainly in tablets and small ultrabooks.

    And since they're such a small "one trick pony" company, of course they can't possibly be working on data producer systems at the same time.

    Could it be Microsoft management just can't juggle more than one ball?

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    You know that they cannot do this because they need the volume of sales for Win8.  Things have been going badly for them on that front, with sales declining even further this quarter.  See the article below:

    http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8-continues-to-fail-7000016222/

    The author of the article states: " For example, if all the reborn Start Button does is give you another way into the unpopular Metro interface,will Windows XP and Windows 7 users really care? "

    So, it is not only me asking the same question.

    Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:07 PM
  • Only thing at this point Windows 8.1 holds for me at this point is foreboding, really.  It brings questions like:

    • Will this new BS Start button get more in the way of the good 3rd party solutions we already have? 
         
    • How much more of the latent remnant desktop functionality will have been removed, e.g., will the Aero Glass restoring tool currently about to be released be able to work at all?  Will ClearType be degraded everywhere to match what they did in IE10?
         

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Tuesday, June 4, 2013 11:44 PM
  • Only thing at this point Windows 8.1 holds for me at this point is foreboding, really.  It brings questions like:

    • Will this new BS Start button get more in the way of the good 3rd party solutions we already have? 
         
    • How much more of the latent remnant desktop functionality will have been removed, e.g., will the Aero Glass restoring tool currently about to be released be able to work at all?  Will ClearType be degraded everywhere to match what they did in IE10?
         

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    I think that there would be a "milestone preview" for the public (or at least, for developers) by the end of the month.  I guess, we would know then.  But with Microsoft annual updates, the safe approach is not to depend on these utilities.  Eventually, they would not work.  Microsoft may have an internal agenda to make them not work (or obvious reasons)
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 1:21 AM
  • Only thing at this point Windows 8.1 holds for me at this point is foreboding, really.  It brings questions like:

    • Will this new BS Start button get more in the way of the good 3rd party solutions we already have?

    That's a perfectly valid concern that I have not heard voiced before. If the new button prevents third party Start Menu replacements from working, then I wonder if some people who find Windows 8 currently acceptable will turn away? That could actually cause Windows 8 to be even less popular than the pariah it currently seems to be.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 1:41 PM
  • >I wonder if some people who find Windows 8 currently acceptable will turn away?
     
    Not me, I don't run any start menu replacement utility to get in the way of, nor do any of my Win8 users...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 1:46 PM
  • >I wonder if some people who find Windows 8 currently acceptable will turn away?
     
    Not me, I don't run any start menu replacement utility to get in the way of, nor do any of my Win8 users...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Obviously I'm referring to people who currently use Start Menu replacements. If you don't use them, then it should be obvious that you would not be affected by their removal.

    We know you are happy with Windows 8, but there seem to be a number of people who only tolerate it with the addition of third party tools.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:05 PM
  • >Obviously I'm referring to people who currently use Start Menu replacements. If you don't use them, then it should be obvious that you would not be affected by their removal.
     
    Obviously, but that's not what you asked.
     
    >We know you are happy with Windows 8, but there seem to be a number of people who only tolerate it with the addition of third party tools.
     
    I kind of doubt it'll make any difference at all, the third party tools will be updated for Win8.1 for those that want to still run them.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:34 PM
  • >Obviously, but that's not what you asked.

    Bob, that is precisely what I asked. I don't know if you simply misread or are just trying to be obtuse:

    "If the new button prevents third party Start Menu replacements from working, then I wonder if some people who find Windows 8 currently acceptable will turn away?"

    Just because you ignored the first half of my sentence, doesn't mean it isn't there. Someone who doesn't use a Start Menu replacement and is currently happy with Windows 8 would not be affected by the situation I described and therefore of no interest or value to any discussion regarding it. Neither would a person who had already given up on Windows 8.

    Your response was the equivalent of the following exchange:

    Question: I wonder if some people who are loyal to Toyota would switch brands if they stopped making the Prius?

    Your response: Not me, I drive a Camry.

    It's nonsensical and irrelevant.

    >I kind of doubt it'll make any difference at all, the third party tools will be updated for Win8.1 for those that want to still run them.

    You can't possibly know that. That was the point of my hypothetical.

    Edit: There are only two logical positions to take in response to my original question - 1) You do think some people will turn away from Windows 8. 2) You don't think some people will turn away.    ---  You can also debate the likelihood of the hypothetical situation actually happening, but that is outside the realm of the question itself.

    • Edited by sdfsaasgafg Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:02 PM
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:56 PM
  • >You can also debate the likelihood of the hypothetical situation actually happening, but that is outside the realm of the question itself.
     
    Since I think that hypothetical situation cannot possibly happen, of course I think nobody will be turned away any more than they are now.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:16 PM
  • >Since I think that hypothetical situation cannot possibly happen, of course I think nobody will be turned away any more than they are now.

     

    That is a perfectly valid opinion.  :)

    I'm not convinced it will happen, I was just thinking along the lines of what the user response would be if it did. I do think it is likely it will break the current set of tools until they can be updated. A more permanent break is interesting to speculate on though.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:34 PM
  • Since I think that hypothetical situation cannot possibly happen, of course I think nobody will be turned away any more than they are now.

    What, you don't think Microsoft could/would change the APIs that the good 3rd party tools rely upon?  I'm betting they'll do so just to SPITE the 3rd party developers.

    I'm starting to think you're being argumentative here.

    Not everyone is as adaptable as you are, Bob, and is willing to live with just the Start Screen.  A great many people DO use 3rd party augments to make Windows 8 tolerable.  Even our own colakid, Windows 8's staunchest advocate besides you, uses a start button/menu replacement.

    But it's pretty clear that's NOT what Microsoft wants its users to do.  They're in the process of closing their system.  They appear to be believe it's important to have people just use it JUST THEIR WAY, without any modifications or even configuration changes, even when THEIR WAY is deficient by any number of measures.

    I'm thinking hard...  I don't think I've run across anyone running Windows 8 to date who hasn't installed ClassicShell, StartIsBack, Start8, or the other start button/menu replacement tools.  Certainly I'm selling enough books to indicate people want it to work better.

    In fact, it's my opinion that, unless absolutely forbidden by those in power who never actually know what's best, it's bordering on IT negligence NOT to use 3rd party tools that increase utility and productivity of Windows.  Most/many of them are even free, and come with source code that can be vetted by conscientious IT folks to address security concerns.

    The only thing that gives me a warm fuzzy in all this is that the people who create these great tools that cover up Microsoft's potholes and bear traps are generally brilliant - certainly beyond the average engineer at Microsoft - and are motivated by things entirely different than those that motivate Microsoft employees.  That said, I'm sure the 3rd party developers will eventually grow tired of having to cover up ever more blemishes in the system intentionally created by ill-willed management in Redmond.

    Microsoft used to be a good company to partner with.  Now they've turned off the main road, and are to be regarded with suspicion.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 3:52 PM
  • I think that there would be a "milestone preview" for the public (or at least, for developers) by the end of the month.  I guess, we would know then. 

    Unfortunately, we won't.  Microsoft is clearly not previewing their "work in progress" to us, but rather versions built carefully to manipulate the expectations of people who try it.  There can be NO OTHER EXPLANATION for the series of roll-outs of Windows 8.0 with less and less Aero Glass capability, finally ending with its elimination right at Windows 8 RTM.

    Whatever direction we perceive in Windows 8.1's previews, comparing to what we know of Windows 8, we would be naïve to assume anything but that it's the tip of an iceberg, NOT something that will be improved based on feedback.  Microsoft doesn't do feedback - they do manipulation.  They'd like to think they can set trends.

    Thusly, our discussions post Windows 8.1 preview release should focus simply on how to work around those things Microsoft introduces, not on trying to tell them what they've done wrong.  They're not listening.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:02 PM
  • >What, you don't think Microsoft could/would change the APIs that the good 3rd party tools rely upon?  I'm betting they'll do so just to SPITE the 3rd party developers.
     
    No, I think the 3rd party developers will adjust to whatever's there, API or not.
     
    >I'm starting to think you're being argumentative here.
     
    And you guys aren't?
     
    >Not everyone is as adaptable as you are, Bob, and are willing to live with just the Start Screen.
     
    I don't just live with the start screen, I use the desktop part almost all the time, but I don't need the old start menu because of my taskbar, toolbars, and the Win8 system menu.
     
    >Even our own colakid, Windows 8's staunchest advocate besides you, uses a start button/menu replacement.
     
    And that's okay, I see no problem with it, and that wont change with Win8.1. 
     
    I gave my Win8 users the choice, they chose not to use a start menu replacement and they are happy with what they have, so I doubt very seriously if it's just me that is that adaptable.  I'm actually quite surprised about how well they took to it given
    all the talk...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:12 PM
  • No, I think the 3rd party developers will adjust to whatever's there, API or not.

    While I agree with that in principle, the problem is that if "whatever's there" changes all too often there is no solid base upon which 3rd party developers can rely, and it becomes all the harder for them to gain traction and take the system in directions other than Microsoft's.  Consider the observation that no one before just now has figured out how to restore Aero Glass, something most desktop users feel improves the usability, but clearly something Microsoft doesn't want people doing!

    I initially wondered why big software companies should want to make their releases more often nowadays, and I'm feeling that their making their systems a moving target that's harder to hit is a reasonable explanation.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:32 PM
  • ...I'm sure the 3rd party developers will eventually grow tired of having to cover up ever more blemishes in the system intentionally created by ill-willed management in Redmond.

    Or, more likely in my mind, the transition to an iOS like model will finish and developers will be locked out by a system which requires all third party code to be digitally signed and distributed via the Store. After that, if MS doesn't like it, it will never see the light of day. Game over. Like I've said: App stores kill innovation in favor of novelty. Anything innovative will be squashed or appropriated before it can become disruptive to the status quo. Do you hope to see e.g. the next generation of anonymous peer-to-peer technology on the Windows store? Yeah, right.

    What I am about to say does not apply to anyone who likes Windows 8, only to those that dislike the changes that have been coming out of Microsoft lately: Personally I don't understand why anyone would put themselves through all the stress. Trying to counter Microsoft's changes with third party tools (a fight that ultimately only Microsoft has any control over as they can alter the battleground at will) and vainly hoping that your favorite feature isn't next on the chopping block is silly, illogical, and ultimately fruitless. What makes sense is to demand open platforms that are not subject to a single vendor's whims. For me, that meant switching to Linux; There are other choices however, such as BSD.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:40 PM
  • >...I'm sure the 3rd party developers will eventually grow tired of having to cover up ever more blemishes in the system intentionally created by ill-willed management in Redmond.

    Or, more likely in my mind, the transition to an iOS like model will finish and developers will be locked out by a system which requires all third party code to be digitally signed and distributed via the Store. After that, if MS doesn't like it, it will never see the light of day. Game over. Like I've said: App stores kill innovation in favor of novelty. Anything innovative will be squashed or appropriated before it can become disruptive to the status quo. Do you hope to see e.g. the next generation of anonymous peer-to-peer technology on the Windows store? Yeah, right.

    What I am about to say does not apply to anyone who likes Windows 8, only to those that dislike the changes that have been coming out of Microsoft lately: Personally I don't understand why anyone would put themselves through all the stress. Trying to counter Microsoft's changes with third party tools (a fight that ultimately only Microsoft has any control over as they can alter the battleground at will) and vainly hoping that your favorite feature isn't next on the chopping block is silly, illogical, and ultimately fruitless. What makes sense is to demand open platforms that are not subject to a single vendor's whims. For me, that meant switching to Linux; There are other choices however, such as BSD.

    Someone is being petty it seems, marking my post as abusive. Ha, maybe it's Ballmer.  :)
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:48 PM
  • >Someone is being petty it seems, marking my post as abusive. Ha, maybe it's Ballmer.  :)
     
    Not me for sure, you don't have that ability from the NNTP client and I haven't logged into the forum itself. (And I never mark posts as abusive anyway, not my style, I keep arguing as you know. <g>)
     
    To address the first part of your post, i.e. switch totally to the iOS model, it can't happen anytime soon because there's far to many much desktop apps still out there and vital to a company's functioning -- Microsoft would be even more daft than you
    suspect to turn their backs on all that money.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:58 PM
  • I honestly didn't think it was you Bob. I know we don't agree on much, but yeah, it doesn't seem like your style.

    I wonder if it could be an automated script triggered by words in my post? It's more fun to think it's Ballmer though.

    >switch totally to the iOS model, it can't happen anytime soon because there's far to many much desktop apps still out there and vital to a company's functioning -- Microsoft would be even more daft than you suspect to turn their backs on all that money.

    We do agree that Microsoft would be daft to switch totally to an iOS model. I guess where we differ is on how daft I believe they might be.  :)

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:08 PM
  • I think that there would be a "milestone preview" for the public (or at least, for developers) by the end of the month.  I guess, we would know then. 

    Unfortunately, we won't.  Microsoft is clearly not previewing their "work in progress" to us, but rather versions built carefully to manipulate the expectations of people who try it.  There can be NO OTHER EXPLANATION for the series of roll-outs of Windows 8.0 with less and less Aero Glass capability, finally ending with its elimination right at Windows 8 RTM.

    Whatever direction we perceive in Windows 8.1's previews, comparing to what we know of Windows 8, we would be naïve to assume anything but that it's the tip of an iceberg, NOT something that will be improved based on feedback.  Microsoft doesn't do feedback - they do manipulation.  They'd like to think they can set trends.

    Thusly, our discussions post Windows 8.1 preview release should focus simply on how to work around those things Microsoft introduces, not on trying to tell them what they've done wrong.  They're not listening.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    I think that talking to Bob about Win8 is a waste of time.  I think that he is smart enough to know the problems of Win8 but he is just a "fanboy".  Unfortunately, there are many of these.

    You are absolutely right about Microsoft progressively "closing off" Windows.  This effort would be in accordance to the decision to transform the company to a "devices and services" company.  Eventually, in a few years, all that Microsoft would be selling will be a number of devices running its OS and a number of subscription services.  It would no longer be a software company.  Which is just fine.  Thus, I expect to see an expanding Surface line with the addition of an ultrabook and, of course, more services like Office 365.  Of course, Microsoft would be pushing Azure, in which you can be running any OS in the cloud.  It is likely that it would be licensing its OS to a select number of OEMs and the new offerings will coexist with Android and iOS devices.  In fact, in would expect a substantial expansion in Android ultrabooks.  If Microsoft publishes Office for Android and iOS (and Adobe takes "Creative Cloud" as "Software Service" offering) why stick with Windows any more?  An Android notebook would run everything you want to run excellently.

    I think that Win8.x marks the last OS that would be user installable.  It is the end of the line.  Bob does not realize this, he thinks that it would be business as usual as long as he "adapts".   But Microsoft is not interested in adaptation.  Very much like Apple, it now wants total submission.  The Windows parameters will keep narrowing until Bob either "surrenders" or until he moves to another platform.  The era of user customization is coming to a close for Microsoft users.  If one wants customization and choices, one has to move over to Android.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:11 PM
  • I honestly didn't think it was you Bob. I know we don't agree on much, but yeah, it doesn't seem like your style.

    I wonder if it could be an automated script triggered by words in my post? It's more fun to think it's Ballmer though.


    More like Carey Frisch.
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:33 PM
  • Interestingly, it's no longer marked.
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:38 PM
  • >I wonder if it could be an automated script triggered by words in my post?
     
    I don't think so, if it were automated it would just move the thread so it can't be seen like the spam filter.
     
    >It's more fun to think it's Ballmer though.
     
    I can certainly understand that.   I know I'd like to ask him a few questions myself about other Microsoft stuff. <g>
     
    >We do agree that Microsoft would be daft to switch totally to an iOS model. I guess where we differ is on how daft I believe they might be.  :)
     
    If they do then all of us types that *need* what Windows does now will just stand pat and spend no money until they either change course back, or something else better comes along.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:47 PM

  • We do agree that Microsoft would be daft to switch totally to an iOS model. I guess where we differ is on how daft I believe they might be.  :)

       

    Microsoft may switch eventually to an iOS -MacOS- model.We simply do not know all the details of the "devices and services" transformation. I am sure that there is a five-year plan there, at least.  If one looks carefully, one would see that as far as Win8 tablets go, Microsoft's "Surface" has "sucked up" most of the air out there.  Hardly anybody else has produced an RT tablet (which are now up for a fire sale).  I think that Microsoft would continue selling licenses to OEMs, but as it would be producing more and more its own hardware, I just do not see how this relationship can continue for a long period of time.  Steve Jobs had to kill the same effort at Apple before increasing profitability.  Eventually, Microsoft would have to do much the same.  OEMs would be ambivalent.  For example, where does HP going to bet on: on its Android tablets or its Win8 tablets?  My guess is that HP would very much prefer to go the Android route.

    The Android world is going to a very interesting direction that fits very well the OEM model.  Progressively,  one would have specific Android skins (TouchWiz for Samsung, Sense for HTC and similar ones for Dell and HP and so on) and "pure" Android experience in the same hardware.  The users would be able to select what they wish to run!! Thus, OEMs would be able to differentiate themselves with the own OS skins (which are gaining adherents) but they would also be able to sell the same hardware with the plain vanilla Android to those who want this experienceSince one would be able to run Microsoft Office in any Android (and iOS) device, why would businesses not standardize on a mobile OS that is more advance (in terms of mobility) than Win8.x???  Microsoft then would be at odds with the OEMs on the hardware front.  This is a very logical scenario.

    For what may be soon occurring in this direction, see CloudOn.

    http://site.cloudon.com/


    • Edited by ADRz Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:21 PM
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:19 PM
  • >We do agree that Microsoft would be daft to switch totally to an iOS model. I guess where we differ is on how daft I believe they might be.  :)
     
    If they do then all of us types that *need* what Windows does now will just stand pat and spend no money until they either change course back, or something else better comes along.

    Exactly!  Some of us have already reached that stage, and others may soon - or not.

    I noticed Jensen Harris' new video makes no mention of the desktop at all.  Microsoft clearly is only interested in continuing development on the Metro/Modern side.  Their "big picture" doesn't seem to include all the emphasis on compatibility and evolution they've been traditionally known for.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:01 PM
  • >Exactly!  Some of us have already reached that stage, and others may soon - or not.
     
    Or not -- nothing else even comes close to what I need now and Windows 8 fills 100% of it.
     
    >I noticed Jensen Harris' new video makes no mention of the desktop at all.  Microsoft clearly is only interested in continuing development on the Metro/Modern side. 
     
    Irrelevant to what I need -- as long as the facility exists for me to execute what I need, what Microsoft touts doesn't make one bit of difference.
     
    >Their "big picture" doesn't seem to include all the emphasis on compatibility and evolution they've been traditionally known for.
     
    And still known for...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:22 PM
  • >We do agree that Microsoft would be daft to switch totally to an iOS model. I guess where we differ is on how daft I believe they might be.  :)
     
    If they do then all of us types that *need* what Windows does now will just stand pat and spend no money until they either change course back, or something else better comes along.

    Exactly!  Some of us have already reached that stage, and others may soon - or not.

    I noticed Jensen Harris' new video makes no mention of the desktop at all.  Microsoft clearly is only interested in continuing development on the Metro/Modern side.  Their "big picture" doesn't seem to include all the emphasis on compatibility and evolution they've been traditionally known for.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Noel,

    I am not sure that there is a point of complaint here.  Microsoft was very specific about its plans and "re-imagining" Windows.  I think that Sinofski was more than honest when he said that Win8 was designed for small screens and primarily for touch.  I posted repeatedly that not only he but the whole of Microsoft described the desktop as "legacy" and have repeatedly admonished developers for developing for it.  They were very clear that they wanted the total effort to be devoted to Metro/WinRT.  I think that only internal wishes perceived things being otherwise. 

    Bob is totally deluded if he thinks that he can continue on without being shoved to Metro 100% within a year or two.  Windows is "closing" and closing fast.  I believe that the Windows desktop may actually survive better in Android that in Windows itself.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:37 PM
  • >Bob is totally deluded if he thinks that he can continue on without being shoved to Metro 100% within a year or two.
     
    There's no way that's going to happen.  Remember there's a lot of companies that pay good money every year that would go away if that happened -- they wont do anything like that anytime soon.  I bet I'll be able to buy a Windows OS 10 years from now that
    will still run most of my current apps if not all.
     
    >I believe that the Windows desktop may actually survive better in Android that in Windows itself.
     
    Now that's funny since it can't run Windows desktop apps now, nor is it going to any time soon, most Android devices are way underpowered for such heavy lifting.
     
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 7:54 PM
  • >Bob is totally deluded if he thinks that he can continue on without being shoved to Metro 100% within a year or two.
     
    There's no way that's going to happen.  Remember there's a lot of companies that pay good money every year that would go away if that happened -- they wont do anything like that anytime soon.  I bet I'll be able to buy a Windows OS 10 years from now that
    will still run most of my current apps if not all.
     
    >I believe that the Windows desktop may actually survive better in Android that in Windows itself.
     
    Now that's funny since it can't run Windows desktop apps now, nor is it going to any time soon, most Android devices are way underpowered for such heavy lifting.
     
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Bob,

    You remind me of DOS persons who thought that the DOS mode would survive in Windows for ever (which it did not).  The funny part, of course, is that the desktop is a lot more powerful than the Metro/WinRT part, but who's counting???

    Of course you can run certain Windows programs (certainly the Office applications) in Android tablets and smartphones.  There are such apps such as Onlive and CloudOn that allow you do so.  Furthermore, you can have any OS (including Win7) in an Azure machine that you can address from an Android device.  Companies, such as Adobe, may soon choose to transform their offerings as remote "services". Furthermore, Microsoft announced that it would be releasing Office for iOS and Android by 2014 (which would only hurt Microsoft, because it would allow existing Office suites for these platforms to take hold).

    Considering the chip development right now for Android machines (Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel and others) and the many cores thrown in for good measure, I would not be as sanguine as you are regarding "power" in Android machines.  HP and others would be releasing Android laptops soon. Microsoft may soon find itself swimming against the tide.

    This always happens when you choose to play in somebody else's yard. Microsoft has decided to "fight" on the ground of Google and Apple's choosing.  It will be "creamed", I am afraid.   Can you make any compeling case for Metro???  I think not. Now, Microsoft believes that having Office on its devices (and giving it away for free) would be a differentiator....this is silly, it is a recipe for disaster.

    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:31 PM
  • >Of course you can run certain Windows programs (certainly the Office applications) in Android tablets and smartphones.
     
    Er, no, not even close, you are using Android programs to work on Office files, not running office.  Just try and run a VBA macro in the spreadsheet....
     
    >There are such apps such as Onlive and CloudOn that allow you do so.
     
    Those aren't running on your android device at all, they're remote desktops and I've been doing that with other devices for years, but it is not running the desktop on that device.
     
    >Furthermore, you can have any OS (including Win7) in an Azure machine that you can address from an Android device.
     
    Again, that's just a remote desktop connection, it's not running any Windows desktop apps on Android.  Windows RT and Windows regular can make use of anything like this too.  I can't imagine why you would want to, always on internet connections can be
    expensive, but you can do it.
     
    >Companies, such as Adobe, may soon choose to transform their offerings as remote "services". Furthermore, Microsoft announced that it would be releasing Office for iOS and Android by 2014 (which would only hurt Microsoft, because it would allow existing Office suites for these platforms to take hold).
     
    There's more to Windows apps than just Office and Adobe stuff, there's lots of LOB type apps that need the desktop -- it isn't going away anytime soon.
     
    >Considering the chip development right now for Android machines (Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel and others) and the many cores thrown in for good measure, I would not be as sanguine as you are regarding "power" in Android machines.  HP and others would be releasing Android laptops soon. Microsoft may soon find itself swimming against the tide.
     
    All you have to do is look at the specs and know they can't run Windows very well, there's even going to be Android devices with Intel CPU's too, but only Atom CPU's and I wont even go near one of those, they're way too slow for anything serious. 
     
    >This always happens when you choose to play in somebody else's yard. Microsoft has decided to "fight" on the ground of Google and Apple's choosing.  It will be "creamed", I am afraid.
     
    They've been creamed before in other markets too and I can still run my stuff...
     
    >Can you make any compeling case for Metro???
     
    For as young as it is now, no, but I don't *need* anything metro.  It actually is not bad for light usage, but I wont be developing anything in it anytime soon.  They could make some change that make it much more powerful and useful in the future.
     
    >I think not. Now, Microsoft believes that having Office on its devices (and giving it away for free) would be a differentiator....this is silly, it is a recipe for disaster.
     
    I don't know about that, Windows RT devices are way outselling Chromebooks, even though Chromebooks have been selling much longer. I've bought a copy of Office with all the PC's we've purchased for many many years..
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Wednesday, June 5, 2013 8:57 PM
  • >Of course you can run certain Windows programs (certainly the Office applications) in Android tablets and smartphones.
     
    Er, no, not even close, you are using Android programs to work on Office files, not running office.  Just try and run a VBA macro in the spreadsheet....
     
    >There are such apps such as Onlive and CloudOn that allow you do so.
     
    Those aren't running on your android device at all, they're remote desktops and I've been doing that with other devices for years, but it is not running the desktop on that device.
     
    >Furthermore, you can have any OS (including Win7) in an Azure machine that you can address from an Android device.
     
    Again, that's just a remote desktop connection, it's not running any Windows desktop apps on Android.  Windows RT and Windows regular can make use of anything like this too.  I can't imagine why you would want to, always on internet connections can be
    expensive, but you can do it.
     

    Bob, this is precisely the point.  You can do it, it all depends how fast your Internet connection is.  I never said that Android is running Win desktop programs natively.  But since Microsoft is so eager to move anything and everything in the cloud and run software as a service (isn't this the whole point of Azure?) what does it matter what kind of OS your client is running?  You can have an Azure machine, loaded with all the software you want and access from a variety of clients.  Is this or not the future according to Microsoft?  Isn't it pushing Azure while dumbing down the client? 

    You cannot build sophisticated apps with Metro/WinRT.  It is just OK for simple apps.  It can "snap" four windows, it is not even where the graphical interfaces were back in 1978 (PARC XEROX and all that)!!!  It just a simple mobile OS, good for light tablet use and not much more.  But Microsoft is betting its future on this.  You are going along for the ride, I guess.  Do not get surprised if Microsoft dumps you unceremoniously. 

    Thursday, June 6, 2013 12:09 AM
  • >Microsoft is so eager to move anything and everything in the cloud and run software as a service (isn't this the whole point of Azure?) what does it matter what kind of OS your client is running?

    Mainly because I'm not moving everything to the cloud, the internet connection is too slow, too high a latency, and not reliable enough.  Until that gets a heck of a lot better that will limit very much what I do over the internet.  Remember I'm not Microsoft in any way, and I'm not a fan boy as accused, I use what makes sense to *me*, not Microsoft and not any article writer in a computer magazine. 

    >You cannot build sophisticated apps with Metro/WinRT.

    I disagree.

    >You are going along for the ride, I guess.

    Not in how I define going along for the ride -- as long as Windows continues to do what I need, I'll keep using it, but I don't follow any current argued for trend. I didn't jump on .NET and convert everything over and that change for Microsoft was just as big a push by them as Metro is now -- and look just what changed because of it. (answer: nothing, even now .NET take-up is still small and we can still run our pre .NET apps just fine on Windows 8.)


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Thursday, June 6, 2013 12:34 AM
  • I haven't done anything with storage spaces yet other than configuring one once and then deleting it -- it's just not something I've needed yet.
     
    I actually like Windows 8 too, it just plain works better for me.
     
    There's a Linux aficionado where I work (he's our electrician that deals with PLC's for machine automation/reporting).  He just got a new Windows 8 laptop and I showed him the ropes for a couple minutes this afternoon.  He actually liked the start screen
    over the old start menu saying it was easier to understand and use.  Since he's not a regular Windows guy I thought that was quite interesting.  His desktop is the only user PC I've set up with Linux (Fedora in this case.)  I also have a couple Linux
    routers running Ubuntu.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Thursday, June 6, 2013 2:30 AM
  • There's a Linux aficionado where I work (he's our electrician that deals with PLC's for machine automation/reporting).  He just got a new Windows 8 laptop and I showed him the ropes for a couple minutes this afternoon.  He actually liked the start screen
    over the old start menu saying it was easier to understand and use.  Since he's not a regular Windows guy I thought that was quite interesting. 
     

    No. Not at all. I've noticed that quite many Linux fans like Windows 8 and especially metro. This should actually WORRY Microsoft, considering how "well" Linux did in marketshare before Windows 8...

    Metro has a lot in common with the classic command CLI: Mystery navigation, hidden commands that you need to remember.. no wonder it appeals to that crowd. The "modern" design language is also very minimalistic and appeals to people who are impaired by advanced graphics.

    Metro is DESIGNED for a niche. Most people don't like this paradigm at all. They love lushy graphics, not this modernist fad. One of the reasons why Windows Phone is failing so much.

    About your other points:

    Yes, we agree that moving everything to the cloud is MADNESS, that killing the desktop off is MADNESS, but you don't seem to understand that Microsoft is in mad-mode currently. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T CARE. All indications point to just that. You argument with reason, but NuMicrosoft is unreasonable.

    Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:31 AM
  • >Yes, we agree that moving everything to the cloud is MADNESS, that killing the desktop off is MADNESS, but you don't seem to understand that Microsoft is in mad-mode currently. THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T CARE. All indications point to just that. You argument with reason, but NuMicrosoft is unreasonable.
     
    I'll only believe that when they take away the ability to run what I need, and right now there is no reason to believe they will.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:51 AM
  • Is this or not the future according to Microsoft?  Isn't it pushing Azure while dumbing down the client? 

    You cannot build sophisticated apps with Metro/WinRT.  It is just OK for simple apps.  It can "snap" four windows, it is not even where the graphical interfaces were back in 1978 (PARC XEROX and all that)!!!  It just a simple mobile OS, good for light tablet use and not much more.  But Microsoft is betting its future on this.

    Keep in mind Azure is getting trounced by Amazon Web Services. They have a huge market share and it looks like even Netflix is going to AWS.
    Thursday, June 6, 2013 3:54 PM
  • It seems to me virtually all the stress in this thread is coming from one thing:  SOME of us are looking ahead, trying to derive future direction from what we're seeing in these various releases and announcements, and OTHERS are looking at what's already been delivered.

    It makes sense, really.  Some, who are trying to plan for the future, need to look ahead.  Others, who are responsible for making things work, look at what's been delivered and is already in front of them.

    Folks like Bob and colakid are concerned with what is running, in front of them.  Many of the rest of us are in the other camp.  The conversation here is running at two different levels, and few if any acknowledge that.

    • "I don't like where this is going"
    • "It works fine for me"
    • "I really don't like where this is going."
    • "Honest, it works fine".
    • Ad nauseum.

     

    Like Bob and colakid, I have finally tweaked a Windows 8.0 system to be usable and actually rather pleasant to use (reconstituting Aero Glass made that happen).  I've proven it can be done, so I understand their points of view.  They've clearly done it for themselves as well.  But it took unprecedented effort to do that.  Further, there are SOME things I actually DO use in Windows 7 that I was simply NOT able to acceptably reconstitute, and there are no new things that I particularly needed (or that work right) that offset that loss.  Windows 8.0 becomes TOLERABLE, in my opinion, after executing over a hundred pages of instructions on applying tweaks and 3rd party software.  But not better.  Everyone's thresholds are a little different.

     

    Thing is, this discussion is specifically about the future direction of Windows. 

     

    It's simply not the case that Windows 8 has made the "legacy" computing environment any better - it can be made TOLERABLE under some conditions, with unprecedented effort.  For those with very specific needs (or who have come from an environment where they had insoluble Windows 7 problems), it may even bring a few advantages.  For most of us it's generally worse.  That is certainly unsettling to those who are planning their high tech futures.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Friday, June 7, 2013 4:01 PM spacing
    Friday, June 7, 2013 3:58 PM
  • >It seems to me virtually all the stress in this thread is coming from one thing:  SOME of us are looking ahead, trying to derive future direction from what we're seeing in these various releases and announcements, and OTHERS are looking at what's already been delivered.
     
    Partially true for me, what is running now is the most important factor, it's what I do every day, it's how I make my money, but I also look to the future in both hardware and software and try to see what's coming and be ready for it, but like the idea of
    what's running now is most important, track record is an important factor looking forward -- Microsoft has always been pretty darn good at legacy support and there is no *real* indication that's going to change.  I *know* that I'll have time to adjust
    however it plays out so I'm not worried. As for hardware, touch is going to be very important looking forward, as well as voice control, even on desktops.
     
    Trying to guess what the future is by just a snapshot of what's happening today or what people are talking about is ignoring or forgetting a LOT of history that led us up to this point.
     
    >It's simply not the case that Windows 8 has made the "legacy" computing environment any better - it can be made TOLERABLE under some conditions, with unprecedented effort.
     
    It's far more than just tolerable to me, I actually like it better and prefer not to use Windows 7 anymore. And that's without a start menu replacement or your aero hack. I also haven't had any complaints from my Windows 8 users yet and I'm about at 10%
    Windows 8 adoption rate now.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Friday, June 7, 2013 4:19 PM
  •  I also haven't had any complaints from my Windows 8 users yet and I'm about at 10% Windows 8 adoption rate now.

    Out of curiosity, are your users more business-oriented (e.g., they find themselves in one or a few database-type applications all day) or creative (e.g., they develop things or create content)?  I'm guessing the former, as I know how the teams of engineers I have managed took to various features in operating systems.  About half just seemed to accept things as they were, and the other half were whiny and persnickety, like I am, and always looked for that extra little edge to make work easier.  :)

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Friday, June 7, 2013 4:46 PM
  • >Out of curiosity, are your users more business-oriented (e.g., they find themselves in one or a few database-type applications all day)
     
    All business, but different segments, Accounting for one, sales/commercial for another, one maintenance/engineering (autoCAD LT), and one developer/manager (me)
     
    All of us use Microsoft Office, more Excel than anything for the group.
     
    I'm the one most likely to look for new ways to do things to make them easier.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Friday, June 7, 2013 5:09 PM
  • Some of us dislike both the future direction and the current delivery.

    Friday, June 7, 2013 7:54 PM
  • Some of us dislike both the future direction and the current delivery.

    The future direction for Excel would be as a "remote service" as part of an upcoming version of Office 365.  There is really nothing good to look forwards to.

    The reason why the future is bleak (and Bob has blinkers on) is because computing is on a "downgrading" move.  Since everybody is targeting mobile services and devices, developlment for "serious iron", large monitors, very high resolutions and powerful processors is going to disappear for most applications (except, possibly, games).  I think that even games would be progressively downsized as developers are targeting now mobile platforms.

    I think that we are going to be in this phase for at least 5 years, with nothing much new happening throughout most of this period of time. At some time in the future, people would be tired of all this banality and they would move on to more serious computing.

    Saturday, June 8, 2013 2:19 AM
  • >The future direction for Excel would be as a "remote service" as part of an upcoming version of Office 365.  There is really nothing good to look forwards to.
     
    You still install and run it locally if it's a licensed PC.  It would be too slow via internet only.
     
    >The reason why the future is bleak (and Bob has blinkers on) is because computing is on a "downgrading" move.
     
    You're forgetting what happened before, this isn't the first time for a trend to centralized computing and it wont be the last.
     
    >Since everybody is targeting mobile services and devices, developlment for "serious iron", large monitors, very high resolutions and powerful processors is going to disappear for most applications (except, possibly, games).
     
    I don't think so, lots of data runs into the bandwidth/latency wall -- things will swing back, and don't discount the gaming market for driving innovation as well.
     
    >I think that we are going to be in this phase for at least 5 years, with nothing much new happening throughout most of this period of time. At some time in the future, people would be tired of all this banality and they would move on to more serious computing.
     
    See, we don't think all that different, it will swing back so why worry about it...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Saturday, June 8, 2013 9:27 PM
  • >The future direction for Excel would be as a "remote service" as part of an upcoming version of Office 365.  There is really nothing good to look forwards to.
     
    You still install and run it locally if it's a licensed PC.  It would be too slow via internet only.
     
    >The reason why the future is bleak (and Bob has blinkers on) is because computing is on a "downgrading" move.
     
    You're forgetting what happened before, this isn't the first time for a trend to centralized computing and it wont be the last.
     
    >Since everybody is targeting mobile services and devices, developlment for "serious iron", large monitors, very high resolutions and powerful processors is going to disappear for most applications (except, possibly, games).
     
    I don't think so, lots of data runs into the bandwidth/latency wall -- things will swing back, and don't discount the gaming market for driving innovation as well.
     
    >I think that we are going to be in this phase for at least 5 years, with nothing much new happening throughout most of this period of time. At some time in the future, people would be tired of all this banality and they would move on to more serious computing.
     
    See, we don't think all that different, it will swing back so why worry about it...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Regarding "Office 365", yes, you install the applications locally now. But this would not continue indefinitely.  In fact, it is advantageous for the companies and the users for it not to continue indefinitely.  Personally, I would prefer it if these services move to the cloud 100%.  For example, my Creative Cloud can be installed only in 2 machines.  Even changing machines requires a lot of effort. It would be best to have it totally in the cloud and use whatever computer I want to use without the local installation limitations.  With so much of the data in the cloud anyway, the local installation is not too much of a use.  I think that with Azure, Microsoft is going this way too.  Local installations would be a thing of the past in 3 years.  This is not what I would have chosen for the future of computing, but one that you actually have enabled.  If more and more users buy into the OS future ala Microsoft, then you should not be surprised that things change in ways you do not like.

    Yes, things may change in the future but when and how is another story.  All I know that things are going down the chute now really fast.  I had real laughs watching the Microsoft demonstration of "snap" windows in Metro!!!  It was really, really laughable that these guys are discussing technology that was a hot item over 30 years ago as the 2nd coming of Jesus.  it was even more laughable watching fanboys eat it up.

    Sunday, June 9, 2013 1:15 AM
  • >Regarding "Office 365", yes, you install the applications locally now. But this would not continue indefinitely.  In fact, it is advantageous for the companies and the users for it not to continue indefinitely.  Personally, I would prefer it if these services move to the cloud 100%.
     
    Not until everyone has a LOT better internet connections -- it's just not possible to do that now and there's no way Microsoft can make that move anytime soon.  Running Excel on even a decent internet connection is painful if there's any kind of
    complexity at all.
     
    >Local installations would be a thing of the past in 3 years.
     
    Not a chance at all that's going to happen in 3 years, maybe 30, by then we'll all have fast enough connections by then.
     
    >If more and more users buy into the OS future ala Microsoft, then you should not be surprised that things change in ways you do not like.
     
    There are hard limits on what can be done now, so I don't really have to worry about that if Microsoft wants their money, and they do.  I'll pay my "services" fees for something like Office365 without even batting an eye -- as long as I can execute
    locally and don't have to have an Internet connection all the time.  I don't work in a big city, I work in a manufacturing plant that's rural -- because that's where the river is and we need lots of water -- that also means Internet connections are slow
    to say the least and that's not going to change anytime "soon".
     
    >All I know that things are going down the chute now really fast.
     
    I don't see that at all, I still can do everything I did in Windows 7 and I can do it in a way that works better for me.
     
    >I had real laughs watching the Microsoft demonstration of "snap" windows in Metro!!!
     
    I don't usually even watch such dog and pony shows, I go by what I find out the product can do.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:31 AM
  • Open Office thank you for being, friendly to windows 8
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 4:21 AM
  •  
    >All I know that things are going down the chute now really fast.
     
    I don't see that at all, I still can do everything I did in Windows 7 and I can do it in a way that works better for me.
     
    >I had real laughs watching the Microsoft demonstration of "snap" windows in Metro!!!
     
    I don't usually even watch such dog and pony shows, I go by what I find out the product can do.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Bob,

    This is what is bothering most about you.  You say that "I can do everything that I did in Win7....".  Considering that Win7 is a slightly re-engineered Vista, this means that we have been in essential stasis now for 10 years or more.  Can you not even imagine a better computer experience that the brain damaged Win8?  I just do not believe this.  You keep going on about HyperV which has been around for a long time.  We are essentially stuck and we are even regressing.  Microsoft is demonstrating the great advances of Win8 which consist of being able to snap 3 windows together!!!  This was a hot technology in the late 70's!!!  This is Metro today!!  And the top Microsoft brass is demonstrating this with a straight face.  I do not know what is going on, apart from the fact that we users pay more for less, much less.  As you well know, very soon you would not be able to buy any of the Adobe products.  You would used them if you are ready to pay $600 a year!!! Microsoft is charging more and more for things that used to be free.

    Sunday, June 9, 2013 5:06 AM
  • very soon you would not be able to buy any of the Adobe products.  You would used them if you are ready to pay $600 a year!!! Microsoft is charging more and more for things that used to be free.

    Exaggerated.

    this is so far exaggerated. Could you give proof to your statement.

    Here are the specifics about Adobe's strategy, which is being ill-received by most everyone - yet Adobe is pushing forward...

     

    • Adobe has many applications, bundled into what they have in the past called the "Creative Suite", or CS for short.  They are moving away from calling it that, but are still bundling the apps together, and plan to deliver them as downloads only, and by subscription only, via something called their "Creative Cloud", or CC for short.
         
    • If you sign up for an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription, you'll run most things locally but online activation technology will be used to verify your subscription regularly, and without successful authentication you will not be allowed to run the software.  Things that can cause authentication failure:  Termination (or non-payment of) the subscription fee, internet unavailability for too long, activation subsystem bugs.
       
    • You can purchase subscriptions for individual applications, but the discount isn't significant.  It would cost you more to subscribe to 3 individual applications than the entire suite of applications that number many times that. 
       
    • There are monthly and yearly subscription commitment contracts but no "lifetime" subscription level.
       
    • You can (and will continue to be able to) buy a "perpetual license" for today's version, CS6, and will be able to do so for some indefinite time into the future, all the while Adobe is delivering newer, (supposedly) more feature-rich software via the subscription model.
         
    • There is NO exit strategy - no "lease buy-out" capability - once you have entered the subscription model.  That means that if you terminate your subscription, beyond the ability to run older CS6 software you might have licensed separately, you will NOT have the ability to run Adobe software to access the content files you have created.  If you have used new features the documents you have saved may not be compatible.  It is this one thing that I don't see how they can get away with, but people apparently don't plan much for their high tech futures.  They just assume things will work out fine and are willing to be locked-in without a safety net.
          
    • Half a million people already have signed up to the subscription plan.
        
    • The release of CC software available by subscription only has already occurred, and the next major release is slated to occur in a bit more than one week from today (June 17).  This is not some future maybe thing, but is already running.  What's new is that Adobe plans no more releases of software that you can license for a flat fee.
       

     

    A lesson to be learned here is that people seem to be more likely to accept what the big software companies deliver than we might have guessed.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options





    • Edited by Noel Carboni Sunday, June 9, 2013 7:19 AM clarified wording
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 6:55 AM
  • Thanks for the Info. I was more referring to the 600 dollar a year figure. Everybody is following that route. EA games, Steam. Still blame the pirates and hackers not software developers
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:17 PM
  • >You say that "I can do everything that I did in Win7....".  Considering that Win7 is a slightly re-engineered Vista, this means that we have been in essential stasis now for 10 years or more.  Can you not even imagine a better computer experience that the brain damaged Win8?
     
    Sure, I can envision something better, but that includes being able to run what I need to run.
     
    And I don't think Win8 is brain damaged at all, it still runs what I need to run while it does it in a way that works well for me.
     
    >You keep going on about HyperV which has been around for a long time. 
     
    ??  I rarely mention it unless there's a question.  I did say it's one of the nice features of Windows 8, but that's about it.  And to think Hyper-V v3 is the same as the original Hyper-V is not to acknowledge just how much its changed -- there's all
    sorts of new stuff in there.  I like it for testing and development, but I definitely understand not every needs or wants it!
     
    >We are essentially stuck and we are even regressing.
     
    You're speaking for yourself only, I happen to think things are progressing nicely.  The new touch interface and the ability to run on mobile devices as well as fixed is important to what I want.
     
    >Microsoft is demonstrating the great advances of Win8 which consist of being able to snap 3 windows together!!!
     
    So?  It's PR only, I don't even really pay attention to such things.
     
    >I do not know what is going on, apart from the fact that we users pay more for less, much less.
     
    That's been the complaint of consumers, of anything, forever. <g>
     
    >As you well know, very soon you would not be able to buy any of the Adobe products.
     
    I doubt that.
     
    >You would used them if you are ready to pay $600 a year!!!
     
    If I need them or want them bad enough, I'd pay that -- it's their choice to sell them like they want.  If I don't need them or want them, I wouldn't be spending that much on them no way.  Right now I don't own any current versions of Adobe software
    fwiw...
     
    >Microsoft is charging more
    >and more for things that used to be free.
     
    That's their choice.  If you need or want their stuff, you'll pay, if not, not.  That's the way capitalism works.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:36 PM
  • XKCD - All Adobe Updates

    Quite possibly the most accurate representation of Adobe products I've ever seen. In my experience Adobe makes the buggiest software of any major software maker. I wouldn't install their products on my machine, let alone pay for them.

    Colakid, you seem to have a beef with 'pirates and hackers'. Piracy has almost nothing to do with the current transition to centralized services (despite it being used as a rationalization by certain deceptive software makers). Bob is right; it is a pendulum that swings toward distributed computing when a new disruptive technology is introduced (early PC's, large hard drives, etc.) and then towards centralization as people seek to reign in and gain greater control (thin clients, intranets, SOA, etc.) The current swing is all about greater control for the software makers, not over piracy, but over your information (which is a valuable commodity these days) and ensuring your future contribution to their profit streams via vendor lock-in.

    Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:46 PM
  • XKCD - All Adobe Updates

    Quite possibly the most accurate representation of Adobe products I've ever seen. In my experience Adobe makes the buggiest software of any major software maker. I wouldn't install their products on my machine, let alone pay for them.

    Colakid, you seem to have a beef with 'pirates and hackers'. Piracy has almost nothing to do with the current transition to centralized services (despite it being used as a rationalization by certain deceptive software makers). Bob is right; it is a pendulum that swings toward distributed computing when a new disruptive technology is introduced (early PC's, large hard drives, etc.) and then towards centralization as people seek to reign in and gain greater control (thin clients, intranets, SOA, etc.) The current swing is all about greater control for the software makers, not over piracy, but over your information (which is a valuable commodity these days) and ensuring your future contribution to their profit streams via vendor lock-in.

     

    My position is that users like Bob and ColaKid do not understand the forces they are subscribing to.Bob and ColaKid will awake one day and they would not be able to buy Windows anymore.  Very much like iOS and Android, it would come only with the hardware one buys.  The transformation of Windows into a mobile OS will just bring forward this kind of future, as well as the transformation of Microsoft into a devices and services company.  There is an enormous gain for Microsoft in closing down its system but this gain can only be realized if there are users who would follow them into this future.  Microsoft would no longer have to code for thousands of drivers; the licensing manufacturers will be doing that (as it happens for Android).  User-installable OS would be a thing of the past.  If one would want to "customize" one's PC, then one would have to buy an Azure license from Microsoft.  Software would run in the cloud and it would terminate the moment the fees are not paid.  Bob and ColaKid do not seem worried about this, as they believe (I assume) that they would be having an "uneventful" employment history!!! Total denial of reality.  If users do not walk out of these arrangements, they would be milked like cows for no benefit for them.

    I have to say that I subscribe to "Creative Cloud" but I started that subscription before Adobe announced its decision to stop selling the "Creative Suite".  When this subscription period ends, I do not plan to continue and I am assembling other solutions.  I am sure that others have similar plans.  Yes, Adobe may have gotten a good number of people to subscribe by low-balling the subscription for the first year, but how many would continue when the price jumps by 40%?  I would say that they would have a serious loss of subscribers.

    At the end, ColaKid and Bob do not seem concerned that the software they would be using would be costing monthly as much as their car payment, or even more.  The worse part is that with the car payment, there is car ownership at the end of the day.  Not so with software.  As long as the employer pays, well, no sweat, but many developers are running their own businesses and these costs accumulate. 

    Sunday, June 9, 2013 5:08 PM
  • >At the end, ColaKid and Bob do not seem concerned that the software they would be using would be costing monthly as much as their car payment, or even more.
     
    Don't be silly, there's a price point above which nobody will pay, even companies -- they'll keep the older version.  Some software its more than others.  For instance if we got the new version of our ERP package at work, it would be *much* more than an
    individual car payment.  I minimize costs as much as I can and I usually try to have perpetual licenses over others but you gotta do what you gotta do.
     
    >As long as the employer pays, well, no sweat, but many developers are running their own businesses and these costs accumulate.
     
    I pay for my own stuff, thank you very much, and it's a more sophisticated setup than I have at work.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:05 PM
  • How reliable can that be coming from a pirate?

    Frankly I'd trust a pirate more than a Win 8 fanboi who runs all the aftermarket tools you do to make Win 8 useful.

    Why you didn't leave the forum out of sheer embarassment is beyond me.  No, wait, it's not.  You didn't leave because you have no dignity.

    Anyone who can run all those aftermarket tools and still claim they run Win 8 and "love it" clearly indicates you really don't have a clue and are attempting to present an arguement for no other purpose than to appear relevant. You aren't.

    Couldn't even catch the sacasm in a link you posted tearing win 8 apart, you simply don't get it, people that actually use their machines for productive work hate it.  Comer is the exception, he's just playing the part of fanboi for all it's worth hoping MS will reward him handsomely for his contest worty effort at guzzling the koolaid.

    And its really obvious you are a terminal lightweight if you can even hope to compare corel crap-ware to Adobe.  Of course with Adobe going to the cloud they lost my business too, so it looks like I'll be running CS5.5 until the wheels fall off.

    DAS

    Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:59 PM
  • >At the end, ColaKid and Bob do not seem concerned that the software they would be using would be costing monthly as much as their car payment, or even more.
     
    Don't be silly, there's a price point above which nobody will pay, even companies -- they'll keep the older version. 

    What "older" version would that be Bob?  If you do not pay the subscription fee, your software disappears or it becomes inoperative.  If you are three or four years in a subscription scheme and then you need to get out because the publisher jacked up the prices or because you have lost your job, good luck going hunting for 4 -5 year old software in eBay.  Please, get hold of your senses. 

    If you decide to take Adobe's offer and get a subscription to Creative Cloud ($49 monthly) and you continue this subscription for 3 - 4 years, what would you do when you do not want to pay the increase that Adobe is certain to request or because you want to reign in expenses???  Are you going to try to find a 5-year old copy of Creative Suite 6.5 (which would be for sale for a few more months but would not get any maintenance)?   Are you going to be OK running old software which would not even have security patches available?  Are you kidding me?  The moment you fall in for that, you are a goner, this is for sure.  Adobe would have you by the balls and will swing you around like a cat!!!

    Get serious.  None of these trends are any good for consumers, not even a little bit.  My guess is that users will end up paying up to 4 times more for Microsoft's Office Suite with the subscription schemes (assuming that they skip one version).  If more and more start copying the Adobe model, we are done here!!!!


    • Edited by ADRz Monday, June 10, 2013 12:33 AM
    Monday, June 10, 2013 12:32 AM
  • >What "older" version would that be Bob?  If you do not pay the subscription fee, your software disappears or it becomes inoperative.
     
    The ones they already own, of course.
     
    >If you do not pay the subscription fee, your software disappears or it becomes inoperative.
     
    Not older versions of Adobe products.
     
    >If you are three or four years in a subscription scheme and then you need to get out because the publisher jacked up the prices or because you have lost your job, good luck going hunting for 4 -5 year old software in eBay.  Please, get hold of your senses. 
     
    That's actually pretty easy to do, I've bought several older software packages on ebay, and as long as it's genuine, that's a good way to go.
     
    >If you decide to take Adobe's offer and get a subscription to Creative Cloud
     
    Not a chance for me, I don't need any new Adobe software, but when going into a lease one should look at all that, and weigh the costs as to whether its worth it or not to you and buy it if it is, otherwise buy something else.  At home I'm subscribed to
    Office365, and that's way cheaper as a subscription if you count that I'd use a perpetual version 4 years or so and it's for 3 PC's against the cost of 3 full perpetual versions.  Makes sense. And if I want to get out of Office365, I'll go back to using
    my perpetual Office 2007 or 2010.
     
    >Are you going to be OK running old software which would not even have security patches available?  Are you kidding me? 
     
    Sure, why not, I still run plenty of old software!  And I take care of security for myself.  I even have a version of Adobe Acrobat that's 12 or 13 years old and it's still running on a Windows 2000 PC that just sits there and does reports all day.
     
    >Get serious.  None of these trends are any good for consumers, not even a little bit.
     
    And consumers will resist buying, that's the way supply and demand work -- if they don't buy enough, the vendor will have to change tactics.
     
    >My guess is that users will end up paying up to 4 times more for Microsoft's Office Suite with the subscription schemes (assuming that they skip one version).
     
    That's not the case now, it's actually cheaper using the subscription model, and if they change to charging too much, like I said, I quite using it and go back to an older version.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, June 10, 2013 1:18 AM
  • Cloud pricing is similar as cell phones. It took years for policy's to set fairness to the customers. December cell phones companies have to change. This will be the same with cloud service pricing. Like Bob said if its to expensive their products wont sell. So far I paid 50 bucks for a OS that is dominate to any predecessor, 1/4 the cost of the previous OS. It is not windows 8 that caused subscription service fees, or the cost of those fees. It is the idea of business to make money. Blame pirates/greed/hackers for the high cost, not windows 8. Subscription fees started with Norton, Steam and Msdn. Msdn all one needed to do was buy a major product and you had a subscription and that MSDN subscription had to be renewed every year, that product expired and we needed to upgrade that subscription or buy a new one. There is nothing wrong with where we are headed in software. This will make it safer for all.

    • Edited by colakid Monday, June 10, 2013 2:12 AM
    Monday, June 10, 2013 2:04 AM
  • I wondering why adobe is in this topic. There is always this which to me works just as good if not better then adobe

    http://www.corel.com/corel/addToCart.jsp?_requestid=1651818#

    You probably don't use Adobe's software professionally if you think that.

    Right now there is no competition, which is why they can pull off the kinds of strategy changes they're making.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Monday, June 10, 2013 3:36 AM fixed typo
    Monday, June 10, 2013 3:36 AM
  • >Get serious.  None of these trends are any good for consumers, not even a little bit.
     
    And consumers will resist buying, that's the way supply and demand work -- if they don't buy enough, the vendor will have to change tactics.
     
    >My guess is that users will end up paying up to 4 times more for Microsoft's Office Suite with the subscription schemes (assuming that they skip one version).
     
    That's not the case now, it's actually cheaper using the subscription model, and if they change to charging too much, like I said, I quite using it and go back to an older version.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Let's face it, Bob, you know little about economics.  In fact, you do not have "supply and demand" when you have monopolies, such as Microsoft and Adobe.  In fact, most of the talk about a self-correcting "free market" is nothing more than baloney that the clever ones hoist on the clueless.  For example, a "free market" cannot operate without the no-cost choice of not buying anything.  Obviously, this is impossible in many situations (electricity, health care, etc).  Same with the OS on your machine.  Microsoft is a monopoly (it has about 92% of the market) and no computer can exist without an OS ...so, where are you going to go?????  To dear old Microsoft, that's where.  Thus, stop dreaming about supply and demand and become realistic.  Sure, you may be able to barely use Adobe Acrobat 5 but you run humongous security risks.  You may be sophisticated enough to avoid them, but 99.99999% of users are not.  So, please, accept reality instead of entering really meaningless arguments. 

    The fact is that they have you and they are swinging you around anyway they want to.  Just accept it.  Or better,  get mad, whatever.  Being complacent does not do you any good.

    Monday, June 10, 2013 5:01 AM
  • Cloud pricing is similar as cell phones. It took years for policy's to set fairness to the customers. December cell phones companies have to change. This will be the same with cloud service pricing. Like Bob said if its to expensive their products wont sell. So far I paid 50 bucks for a OS that is dominate to any predecessor, 1/4 the cost of the previous OS. It is not windows 8 that caused subscription service fees, or the cost of those fees. It is the idea of business to make money. Blame pirates/greed/hackers for the high cost, not windows 8. Subscription fees started with Norton, Steam and Msdn. Msdn all one needed to do was buy a major product and you had a subscription and that MSDN subscription had to be renewed every year, that product expired and we needed to upgrade that subscription or buy a new one. There is nothing wrong with where we are headed in software. This will make it safer for all.


    Where did I miss this "fairness to the customers" in cell phones?  I may live in a different universe.  Listen, I am in a universe where the companies that control 95% of the US market charge about $100 a month for smartphone account with a 2 GB cap on it, while tiny outfits that have very little spectrum and exist in the remote periphery sell the same plan for $19!!!  It would have been fair if the spectrum was "shared", but it is not.    Thus, I conclude that you must live in the "fair" universe!!!
    Monday, June 10, 2013 5:05 AM
  • Cloud pricing is similar as cell phones. It took years for policy's to set fairness to the customers. December cell phones companies have to change. This will be the same with cloud service pricing. Like Bob said if its to expensive their products wont sell. So far I paid 50 bucks for a OS that is dominate to any predecessor, 1/4 the cost of the previous OS. It is not windows 8 that caused subscription service fees, or the cost of those fees. It is the idea of business to make money. Blame pirates/greed/hackers for the high cost, not windows 8. Subscription fees started with Norton, Steam and Msdn. Msdn all one needed to do was buy a major product and you had a subscription and that MSDN subscription had to be renewed every year, that product expired and we needed to upgrade that subscription or buy a new one. There is nothing wrong with where we are headed in software. This will make it safer for all.


    Where did I miss this "fairness to the customers" in cell phones?  I may live in a different universe.  Listen, I am in a universe where the companies that control 95% of the US market charge about $100 a month for smartphone account with a 2 GB cap on it, while tiny outfits that have very little spectrum and exist in the remote periphery sell the same plan for $19!!!  It would have been fair if the spectrum was "shared", but it is not.    Thus, I conclude that you must live in the "fair" universe!!!

    December 1 all cell phone companies have to change their contracts to this

    http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/t14.htm

    Monday, June 10, 2013 9:30 AM
  • >Let's face it, Bob, you know little about economics.
     
    So you're down to trying to be insulting, oh well...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, June 10, 2013 1:07 PM
  • >Let's face it, Bob, you know little about economics.
     
    So you're down to trying to be insulting, oh well...
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    OK, my bad...if you thought that this was an insult.  I simply wanted to characterize these markets as not-free.
    Monday, June 10, 2013 1:41 PM
  • Cloud pricing is similar as cell phones. It took years for policy's to set fairness to the customers. December cell phones companies have to change. This will be the same with cloud service pricing. Like Bob said if its to expensive their products wont sell. So far I paid 50 bucks for a OS that is dominate to any predecessor, 1/4 the cost of the previous OS. It is not windows 8 that caused subscription service fees, or the cost of those fees. It is the idea of business to make money. Blame pirates/greed/hackers for the high cost, not windows 8. Subscription fees started with Norton, Steam and Msdn. Msdn all one needed to do was buy a major product and you had a subscription and that MSDN subscription had to be renewed every year, that product expired and we needed to upgrade that subscription or buy a new one. There is nothing wrong with where we are headed in software. This will make it safer for all.


    Where did I miss this "fairness to the customers" in cell phones?  I may live in a different universe.  Listen, I am in a universe where the companies that control 95% of the US market charge about $100 a month for smartphone account with a 2 GB cap on it, while tiny outfits that have very little spectrum and exist in the remote periphery sell the same plan for $19!!!  It would have been fair if the spectrum was "shared", but it is not.    Thus, I conclude that you must live in the "fair" universe!!!

    December 1 all cell phone companies have to change their contracts to this

    http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/t14.htm


    And you are interpreting this as "fairness"???
    Monday, June 10, 2013 1:43 PM
  • Personal attacks gains you nothing if you want to really argue that your point is correct.
     
    >I simply wanted to characterize these markets as not-free.
     
    Then just say that. We disagree on this point quite a bit, but it's kind of outside the bounds of this forum since we really aren't just talking about Windows 8 here..
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Monday, June 10, 2013 2:02 PM

  • Then just say that. We disagree on this point quite a bit, but it's kind of outside the bounds of this forum since we really aren't just talking about Windows 8 here..
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    I do not think that discussion about monopolies is outside the bounds of Win8 as Microsoft does have a monopoly in OSes. Much of the problem springs, in fact, from Microsoft's position to "dictate" based on its monopoly powers.  But I understand your point.
    Monday, June 10, 2013 4:59 PM

  • Then just say that. We disagree on this point quite a bit, but it's kind of outside the bounds of this forum since we really aren't just talking about Windows 8 here..
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    I do not think that discussion about monopolies is outside the bounds of Win8 as Microsoft does have a monopoly in OSes. Much of the problem springs, in fact, from Microsoft's position to "dictate" based on its monopoly powers.  But I understand your point.

    I see some paid for a year subscription in one shot> As I was saying.
    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/subscription-xtf72?utm_content=reply_link&utm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification

    Again, you are out of tune....so usual.  You found one positive comment in thousands.  Good work, apply for an Adobe marketing position!!
    Monday, June 10, 2013 10:50 PM
  • I don't mean to add any fuel to a fire, but I have an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription.  As a software author who sells into the Photoshop market I simply have to have access to the latest version. 

    There are also other perfectly reasonable business situations where folks who create content will need the latest tools, and there actually IS merit in the network services provided as well.

    I also have a perpetual license for Photoshop CS6 Extended 13.0, which can serve as a safety net if I exit the subscription model.  Today, that's very nearly the current version, and next week it will be slightly more out of date.  As time goes on falling back on it will of course be a less and less viable option.  I'm hoping Adobe creates some kind of "lease buy-out" option in the future.

    Personally, having been in big computer engineering companies, I see the steady income and easing of restrictions on changing the product to suit accounting laws as something that may help Adobe do better engineering.  I mention this to illustrate that there are factors executives in these companies have to consider that don't have to do with users.  Note, for example, what has happened with Adobe's stock price in the past year and a half.  Hint:  It's near an all-time high right now.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    • Edited by Noel Carboni Monday, June 10, 2013 11:29 PM improved wording
    Monday, June 10, 2013 11:25 PM
  • I don't mean to add any fuel to a fire, but I have an Adobe Creative Cloud subscription.  As a software author who sells into the Photoshop market I simply have to have access to the latest version. 

    There are also other perfectly reasonable business situations where folks who create content will need the latest tools, and there actually IS merit in the network services provided as well.

    I also have a perpetual license for Photoshop CS6 Extended 13.0, which can serve as a safety net if I exit the subscription model.  Today, that's very nearly the current version, and next week it will be slightly more out of date.  As time goes on falling back on it will of course be a less and less viable option.  I'm hoping Adobe creates some kind of "lease buy-out" option in the future.

    Personally, having been in big computer engineering companies, I see the steady income and easing of restrictions on changing the product to suit accounting laws as something that may help Adobe do better engineering.  I mention this to illustrate that there are factors executives in these companies have to consider that don't have to do with users.  Note, for example, what has happened with Adobe's stock price in the past year and a half.  Hint:  It's near an all-time high right now.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    Noel,

    I strongly doubt that Adobe would create a "lease-buy out" policy.  Even if it does, it would be very expensive.  I cannot say that I am looking forward to it.  Of the Adobe products, I can do with most apart from Dreamweaver as there is no other solution right now (Microsoft has abandoned the Expression line).

    I think that this provides a good opportunity to other publishers to walk in and offer solutions that are nearly as good as those of Adobe and work with CC file types.

    The stock price of Adobe has little to do with the company; the market is broadly up, pushing upwards all kinds of shares. 

    Monday, June 10, 2013 11:44 PM
  • The cloud models will become difficult in that moment, in which the end user can no longer access his data.

    Given the Adobe Example - who knows, if your old version will still be able to open your data files due to format changes after you have gone trough a few years of subscription and need to stop the payment for whatever reason?

    What's with cloud stored stuff after death of the subscriber (this discussion came up a while ago in relation with Kindle e-book purchases, but is valid also for many other cloud based services)? How will entitled relatives gain access or even know about it? I can search a PERSONAL computer for important information if someone needs help about it, but not the big wide cloud without knowing account names and passwords or having access to future authentication ways.

    And there are still possibilities, that even larger companies go bankrupt or part of their services goes into hands of other companies.

    Its all more questions than answers - and there is a good reason for healthy skepticism.

    Best greetings from Germany
    Olaf

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:49 AM
  • "Pirates and hackers" are bogey-men. Of course, they do exist, but they are not as much of a threat to the software business as claimed.

    I can remember when activation was something that was only for high-end custom software.. I can remember when DRM was utterly despised, and now it quite often gets defended on forums.

    Forced real names, operating systems that urge you to create accounts relentlessly, always-on consoles with mandatory cameras, forced appstores with no sideloading functionality, forced cloudification, dubious studies that allude people who don't want to striptease their privacy on Facebook as psychopaths...

    And the ubiquitous spyware functions just about everywhere don't even raise eyebrows nowadays. I can remember when it was called "phone home" and caused uproars.

    For many of these things I had understanding at first, but that understanding grows thin. It's obviously not about piracy anymore, it's about milking the customers and, yes, control.

    The tech landscape transforms straight into those b-movie sci fi flicks, where you always think how did the people let this sh*thole scenario happen. Well, now I know. They always forget to include the enablers known as "fanboys" in those movies.

    If at least the products would be any good in return for living in a digital prison, but no, we get Windows 8..

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:17 AM
  • I saw today that Apple is announcing the new IOS will be "flat" just like Windows8, no more shadows, 3d, simulated real-world objects or shiny. I am sure Microsoft designers will celebrate their design choice as being ahead of the curve.

    Art and design is deeply personal. I suspect 5 years from now most teenagers will look at Windows7 and think its hideous. I am sure I will get used to it, but i guess I am old-school and I prefer a more elegant look to my computer and I don't see why I can't have that choice...sigh.

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 2:49 PM
  • Did you see iOS 7 screenshots yet? That thing is shiny as hell. It's flat for sure, but super shiny. And they're not doing the overblown skeuomorphism, but things like Game Center still don't make sense.

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 2:55 PM
  • "Pirates and hackers" are bogey-men. Of course, they do exist, but they are not as much of a threat to the software business as claimed.

    I can remember when activation was something that was only for high-end custom software.. I can remember when DRM was utterly despised, and now it quite often gets defended on forums.

    Forced real names, operating systems that urge you to create accounts relentlessly, always-on consoles with mandatory cameras, forced appstores with no sideloading functionality, forced cloudification, dubious studies that allude people who don't want to striptease their privacy on Facebook as psychopaths...

    And the ubiquitous spyware functions just about everywhere don't even raise eyebrows nowadays. I can remember when it was called "phone home" and caused uproars.

    For many of these things I had understanding at first, but that understanding grows thin. It's obviously not about piracy anymore, it's about milking the customers and, yes, control.

    The tech landscape transforms straight into those b-movie sci fi flicks, where you always think how did the people let this sh*thole scenario happen. Well, now I know. They always forget to include the enablers known as "fanboys" in those movies.

    If at least the products would be any good in return for living in a digital prison, but no, we get Windows 8..

    It appears we agree completely. I was recently thinking about the "phone home" thing and how that is not only ignored today, but actually accepted. The people who know better still investigate these things, but their voices are drowned out by the masses who will (apparently) sacrifice all forms of privacy, ownership, and control in the name of convenience, because they *really* don't want to know how anything works.

    The truth is, it was never about piracy. DOS and Windows would never have achieved the market shares it did WITHOUT piracy. Just like Metallica would never have achieved their fame without sharing of unofficial tapes (which they were fine with), only to go on a rampage against Napster after they were successful. It's the same thing.

    FOSS operating systems and software are the only sensible way to go...but even that choice is threatened by attempts to lock down hardware platforms with things like Secure Boot in Windows 8. Buying a locked down hardware device, e.g. iPhone, is tantamount to surrendering all control, but it is getting more and more difficult to find truly open platforms. The masses simply don't care. They'll buy anything that's shiny, even if it stabs them in the back.

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:23 PM
  • I saw today that Apple is announcing the new IOS will be "flat" just like Windows8, no more shadows, 3d, simulated real-world objects or shiny. I am sure Microsoft designers will celebrate their design choice as being ahead of the curve.

    Art and design is deeply personal. I suspect 5 years from now most teenagers will look at Windows7 and think its hideous. I am sure I will get used to it, but i guess I am old-school and I prefer a more elegant look to my computer and I don't see why I can't have that choice...sigh.


    The "discussion" between designers have nothing to do with the public and its preference.  All of it is just "fashion".  Computing is driven by fashion, much more than any other branch of technology.  Machines were originally grey, then they got to be black, now they are white and so on ...it is all fashion.  The same with icons.  And it is not only iOS7, Google is going very much the same way if you have seen the redesign of the new Google Play.  As far as I am concern, fashion in icon design, typography and typefaces is totally immaterial and of no real importance.  My problem with Win8 are not based on design elements (although I think that Metro is simply hideous).  It is much more of a core issue situation.  Essentially, bolting a touch-based, mobile OS on top of a desktop OS is a simple disaster in usability and productivity.  What the icons look is really a secondary issue.
    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:37 PM
  • Did you see iOS 7 screenshots yet? That thing is shiny as hell. It's flat for sure, but super shiny. And they're not doing the overblown skeuomorphism, but things like Game Center still don't make sense.

    Let's not forget here that iOS7 is a distinct mobile OS.  Apple also unveiled a pure desktop system, MacOS 10.9 "Mavericks" with some interesting advances.  If we had only been that lucky!!!  We end up with the Frankenstein monster OS (mobile/desktop nonsense hybrid).
    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:40 PM

  • The truth is, it was never about piracy. DOS and Windows would never have achieved the market shares it did WITHOUT piracy. Just like Metallica would never have achieved their fame without sharing of unofficial tapes (which they were fine with), only to go on a rampage against Napster after they were successful. It's the same thing.

    This is likely debatable.  DOS and Windows achieved their primacy because of the PC clones!! While Macs became a single-vendor systems, the PC ecosystem exploded in choices and configurations.  I do not think that piracy had much to do with it.  The same can be said for application software.  Piracy cannot explain why Adobe still lives on and prospers and WordPerfect and Lotus have disappeared. 

    Piracy is troublesome but a very minor part of today's software business.  Now that we have "squashed" piracy, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon manage to get 30% of all software sales in their shops, something that they could not even have dreamed on in the days of open computing!!!

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:46 PM
  • This is likely debatable.  DOS and Windows achieved their primacy because of the PC clones!! While Macs became a single-vendor systems, the PC ecosystem exploded in choices and configurations.  I do not think that piracy had much to do with it.  The same can be said for application software.  Piracy cannot explain why Adobe still lives on and prospers and WordPerfect and Lotus have disappeared. 

    Piracy is troublesome but a very minor part of today's software business.  Now that we have "squashed" piracy, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon manage to get 30% of all software sales in their shops, something that they could not even have dreamed on in the days of open computing!!!

    ...and how many of those clones were running legal copies? Answer: Fewer than you think. DOS was at one time, the most pirated piece of software in the world.

    Piracy was never really troublesome to anyone but a few bean-counters. It always was, and still is, a red herring to distract people away from real issues, like how copyright law has been perverted by corporations. 'Fair use', anyone? If I buy software, I have the legal right to make a 1-1 backup copy for my own use...oh wait, here comes the DMCA and now my rights are trumped by companies' right to keep secrets about their software, even if it prevents my fair use.

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:14 PM
  • Piracy was never really troublesome to anyone but a few bean-counters. It always was, and still is, a red herring to distract people away from real issues, like how copyright law has been perverted by corporations. 'Fair use', anyone? If I buy software, I have the legal right to make a 1-1 backup copy for my own use...oh wait, here comes the DMCA and now my rights are trumped by companies' right to keep secrets about their software, even if it prevents my fair use.

    Well, here I blame the users who have not taken an activist approach to software licensing.  In fact, there are a number of court decisions against the licensing terms offered by most companies.  Of course, moving things to the cloud totally obscures the "ownership" debate. 

    It is amazing how easily people swallow marketing palaver.  I am sure that there are people, even today, that believe that Metro was developed as it was because Microsoft wanted to have "a unified GUI" for all its OSes!!! These people confused the marketing "foam" for actual rationale!!!

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:30 PM
  • I find computing way to funny. Here is why. Websites slam windows 8, some admit they like windows 8, the ones that don't like it are now hoping 8.1 changes that,  "I hate" windows 8. The ones that hate it, owners of websites and their little word guy/gals blabbered about windows 8 in articles without even testing windows 8, they judged from a few game sites, who had announced how windows 8 was no good for games or other things. Those game sites/office released info correcting their earlier experience. Evidently professional Tec websites are popping up like worms on a rainy day(worm sites), and everyone is saying the same thing. I can read one story and go to a different worm site and continue from where I left off from the previous. They are saying the smallest improvement is the customizing of metro and that improvement is the savior of windows 8, with the release of 8.1 update. I guess for them to admit they were wrong judging windows 8 and continue to write articles of someone's else review because they cannot afford to buy updated hardware to test windows 8. Egos are saved with the release of the unknown WINDOWS 8.1. Already sites are judging without even testing. Humm. The soap begins "AS THE WORM SITES TURN". New episode everyday on the worm sites.
    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 9:32 PM
  • I find computing way to funny. Here is why. Websites slam windows 8, some admit they like windows 8, the ones that don't like it are now hoping 8.1 changes that,  "I hate" windows 8. The ones that hate it, owners of websites and their little word guy/gals blabbered about windows 8 in articles without even testing windows 8, they judged from a few game sites, who had announced how windows 8 was no good for games or other things. Those game sites/office released info correcting their earlier experience. Evidently professional Tec websites are popping up like worms on a rainy day(worm sites), and everyone is saying the same thing. I can read one story and go to a different worm site and continue from where I left off from the previous. They are saying the smallest improvement is the customizing of metro and that improvement is the savior of windows 8, with the release of 8.1 update. I guess for them to admit they were wrong judging windows 8 and continue to write articles of someone's else review because they cannot afford to buy updated hardware to test windows 8. Egos are saved with the release of the unknown WINDOWS 8.1. Already sites are judging without even testing. Humm. The soap begins "AS THE WORM SITES TURN". New episode everyday on the worm sites.

    Windows 8.1 is not an unknown.  Copies of it have been circulated for more than a month and Microsoft has provided a preview of its features.  So, there is nothing unknown about it.  In late June, you (and others) would be able to download the preview.  Just a warning.  If one installs the preview, then one would have to re-install everything when the final Win8.1 comes out.  So, the criticism is not of something that a few pirates have circulated, it is based on Microsoft's official communications. 

    The best proposal of fixing Windows comes from Infoworld, with their "Windows Red" open-letter suggestions to Microsoft

    http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/introducing-windows-red-serious-plan-fix-windows-8-219825?source=windows_red_block

    I think that this is an excellent proposal.

    I think that what is happening is dangerous for Microsoft.  Many have delayed their plans to buy new equipment waiting to see how Microsoft fixes Win8.  I am almost certain that Win8.1 will disappoint at every level those who have waited for a more appropriate response by Microsoft.  Thus, many would start seriously considering switching to Macs or make the definitive decision to stay with Win7.  In any case, Microsoft would find itself in a world of hurt.

    I thought that it was absolutely hilarious watching top Microsoft officials demonstrating in all seriousness three (3!!!) snapping windows!!!  If there was a moment of hilarity, this was it.  Here are these guys, in 2013, demonstrating a feature that was "cutting edge" (it was never really cutting edge) in 1984!!!  What can one say when you think that the hottest new feature of your OS is something that it was even better in Windows 1.0, circa 1984???  What have we been doing for 30 years????  

    Are you not at all embarrassed for supporting such a regressive OS?

    Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:21 PM
  • This has got to be the most closed minded discussion I've ever seen...

    Let's see what you complain about:

    Star screen: not being able to see work progress

    If you are spending more than 10 seconds on the start screen at a time, you are using the start screen wrong. That place is not supposed to be a Window in which you waist time, it is supposed to launch (as in START) things -> hence the "START screen" name.

    Start screen: Alien environment

    I wonder what all those rectangular buttons with application names on them do. Launching the mentioned applications? Nah, that would be too obvious.

    Metro apps? Nobody forced you to use them, although they are very, very, very nice.

    The start menu from earlier versions of windows is better

    How so? Does it offer you customization? limited compared to the new start screen.

    Is it faster? nope.

    Does it take more time to find your stuff that aint pinned? YES

    Does it allow a greater number of pinned programs? nope.

    Desktop is a thing of the past

    Really? Are you aware that Windows RT tablets (yes, the ones with metro-only apps) STILL have a desktop?

    Are you aware that Windows Explorer (yeh, the desktop) received huge enhancements in Windows 8, compared to Windows 7?

    Wait, what? you never used windows 8? I figured that one out the moment I saw a link to a "professional" site.

    At some point, I wonder if you actually used a computer before.

    Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:27 PM
  • >This has got to be the most closed minded discussion I've ever seen...

    Based on what? Your badly misspelled 'insight'?

    >Let's see what you complain about:

    Yes, let's.

    >Star screen: not being able to see work progress

    It's the Start screen. With a 't'. Yes, having giant tiles appear on a 27" monitor and cover up six windows of work just to see what Bing is trying to shove in my face is indeed a problem. That was the first thing I got rid of...every tile that related to Bing in any way.

    >If you are spending more than 10 seconds on the start screen at a time, you are using the start screen wrong. That place is not supposed to be a Window in which you waist time, it is supposed to launch (as in START) things -> hence the "START screen" name.

    What about the time spent searching for things Microsoft removed any direct links to and didn't bother adding tiles for? Also, I think you mean 'waste', not 'waist', unless you are concerned about your waistline, in which case I recommend getting up from the computer and getting some exercise.

    >Start screen: Alien environment

    Yeah, like the one that bursts from your chest.

    >I wonder what all those rectangular buttons with application names on them do. Launching the mentioned applications? Nah, that would be too obvious.

    Just like giant icons, only badly drawn, with no transparency.

    >Metro apps? Nobody forced you to use them, although they are very, very, very nice.

    The forcing will come later...and no, they are not very, very, very nice. What planet are you on? Apparently one which received a different copy of Windows 8 which actually came with useful Metro apps...yeah right.

    >The start menu from earlier versions of windows is better

    I'm glad we agree here.

    >How so? Does it offer you customization? limited compared to the new start screen.

    Wow, you got me here. How could being able to create sub-menus and organizing your applications into reasonable categories compete with simply throwing them up against a giant scrollable wall. I can't believe I didn't see that before.  <---Note: That's sarcasm, for the slow witted.

    >Is it faster? nope.

    Um, in fact it is. Especially if you have a large number of applications, each with several icons. By the time you can scroll around that huge mess of a Start screen, I'll be done with my work.

    >Does it take more time to find your stuff that aint pinned? YES

    Not at all. How long does it take to find your apostrophe key? Do you know what that is?

    >Does it allow a greater number of pinned programs? nope.

    If you think pinning the most programs possible is the point, then you've missed the point of pinning in the first place.

    >Desktop is a thing of the past

    That is certainly what Microsoft wants. So, in your opinion, the Metro stuff we most definitely aren't being forced to use is the future and offers a compelling use case beyond what a multi-windowed desktop offers...and yet Microsoft is apparently busy reinventing those same multi-windowing concepts and applying them to Metro, albeit in a half-heartedbaked way.

    >Really? Are you aware that Windows RT tablets (yes, the ones with metro-only apps) STILL have a desktop?

    A desktop with no applications besides MS Office and a clock is hardly the same thing.

    >Are you aware that Windows Explorer (yeh, the desktop) received huge enhancements in Windows 8, compared to Windows 7?

    It received some superficial cosmetic improvements and suffered from some feature removal as well.

    >Wait, what? you never used windows 8? I figured that one out the moment I saw a link to a "professional" site.

    I've probably used it more than you.

    >At some point, I wonder if you actually used a computer before.

    I wonder if you've even seen one. Perhaps you dictated this post to your dog? Did he use Windows 7?


    • Edited by sdfsaasgafg Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:48 PM Put quotes in bold.
    Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:35 PM
  • Yet one more windows 7 fan boy converted to 8 and lots more are crawling out of the crevices like a spider in the night. I'm glad how right I am since day one.

    Paul Bunting – Blog

    I have been using Windows 8 full time now for just over a month, a fairly short period (I did have a VM running for a couple of months to check it out as well, though to be honest did not have much time to play with it).

    I did not think I would be a fan, I tended to heavily customize and favour my start menu structure, but I can honestly say I don’t miss the start menu; hitting the start button and just typing one or two letters of what I want is so smooth and fast that I am kinda glad to be rid of my OCD organization of my start menu into organized sub folders and groupings.

    The start screen is also growing on me, quite like the live tiles, even though I spend almost all my time in desktop mode and I have no touch screen, I still use it. It is easy to use and a nice change from small static icons.

    Most significantly, as a rather heavy user of VMs and high memory development software, plus 30-50 windows open at any one time across 3 to 5 screens; is that the whole OS is lot faster and slicker, even with two or three VMs running in the background, all on a laptop, not a high spec desktop.

    Wednesday, June 12, 2013 9:59 PM
  • mcosmin,

    I'll address a few of your points, but honestly I don't think you are capable of logical argument, so this will be the last time.

    I used the RTM, but before that I used earlier versions as well. I have an MSDN subscription, so no need for "some cracked beta from torrents" as you put it. LOL.

    The Start screen can only be re-ordered. It still lacks any kind of real organization as was possible with the Start Menu. I use almost two hundred applications...frequently. Some of these applications have nearly a dozen or more *required* utility applications as part of their makeup. The Start Screen can not handle that without becoming a giant unmaintainable mess.

    Transparency doesn't belong on the Start Screen...says you. That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. So according to you battery life will be significantly affected by transparent icons on the Start Screen which, by your own admission, you should not be spending more than 10 seconds on. What about apps that want transparency? Wouldn't they have a bigger impact? iOS applications do transparency just fine and they don't seem to have battery life issues.

    Microsoft has said they consider the desktop legacy. If you choose not to believe that, that's your own problem. I can't help you.

    You mention that RT tablets can be hacked to run recompiled desktop applications as some kind of *proof* the desktop is still there. So what? It's locked out...the way Microsoft wants it. That's what makes it garbage.

    Finally, you present the same tired list of marketing BS Microsoft wants us to know about Windows 8. I've ripped that list apart more than once, but I'll repeat myself for you (you're welcome):

    Better memory usage (Page Combining)  -- End users are just clamoring for this are they? How do we know it's better? Where are the benchmarks?

    Vastly improved task manager -- It has a few nice minor features added. Big deal. These additions could have been done by an intern in a week. Why did it take them a decade to make them at all?

    Better virtualization feature (Hyper-V vs. Virtual PC) -- Client Hyper-V is just Hyper-V from Windows server copy/pasted wholesale into Windows 8. Yes, it's better than nothing, but inferior to virtualization solutions already being used by many developers (virtualbox, vmware, etc). You see, it lacks *client* side features commonly found in other solutions. Ironically Client Hyper-V is missing the Client part.

    Faster boot-up time - Windows 8 boots a whole 3 seconds faster than my Windows 7 machine. I'm not sure how that is considered a feature...especially since it comes at the cost of using Fast Start Up, a multi-boot unfriendly solution that has all the problems associated with hibernation.

    Desktop wallpaper slideshow (with the chrome color automatically changing the suit the current background image) -- Um, yeah, whatever. That doesn't help me do anything. I use my computer to do stuff, not stare at wallpaper.

    Wallpaper spanning multiple monitors, or showing different wallpaper on each monitor -- Ditto.

    Taskbar spanning across monitors, with the ability to show taskbar icons for an app on a given monitor only on that monitor's taskbar -- This one is ok. Too bad multi-monitor support is so horribly broken with the idiotic Start screen and Metro.

    The incredibly useful Win+X (or right-click on Start) menu. -- Yay, keyboard shortcuts. We've NEVER had keyboard shortcuts before.

    Better support for new AMD CPUs (makes more efficient use of "bulldozer"-style "modules") -- Supporting modern hardware is a *requirement*, not a feature.

    Improvements to BitLocker drive encryption -- How's it better? Is it better in some way which helps typical users? How many typical users use Bitlocker? Does BitLocker have backdoors for Microsoft and government agencies? Open source third party solutions are a better bet here.

    Windows To Go installation to flashdrives -- Do you run Windows 8 enterprise? A pale (and severely restricted) imitation of Linux's Live distros, which have been around pretty much as long as flash drives...or CD-ROMs.

    Ability to mount ISO images is now built in -- It certainly took long enough. Linux has been able to do this for over a decade. Why do I still have to mount them as a stupid drive letter instead of as a folder?

    Antivirus is now built in (same thing as Security Essentials, but now part of Defender) -- Windows 3.1 had built in anti-virus too.

    USB3 support out of the box -- Woo, so what? My Linux boxes have supported USB3 for nearly 4 years. Again, it's a *requirement*, not a feature.
    Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:02 PM
  • Legacy desktop support means that applications compiled for earlier versions of windows would still work.

    This legacy support is mentioned in every new windows release.

    Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:23 PM
  • Sigh.  As I've said before, this conversation is just being held on two VASTLY different levels.

    • "I don't like where this is going"
    • "It works fine"
    • "No, stupid, we're talking about where this is going"
    • "No, moron, it really does work fine"
    • Ad infinitum, with escalating emotions.

    Legacy desktop support means that applications compiled for earlier versions of windows would still work.

    This legacy support is mentioned in every new windows release.

    You really don't get it, do you, mcosmin?  Just the fact that it's called "legacy" means it's on its way out.  It's not being actively supported.  It's kaput.  Worse yet, it's actively being made to work worse, to give you a poorer user experience, right in front of your nose!

    Metro/Modern sadly doesn't come close to offering equivalent functionality.  I'm not sure it even has the potential to do so (not everything can be done with a few lines of web code and big fonts).  It was clearly made up as Microsoft went along, by folks with apparently no more IQ than the average.  Disagree?  They didn't even have a way (overt OR secret) to close apps at first, outside the Task Manager.  That's not a design, it's a first year student's coding project while going through fraternity initiation.

    Rational thought demands they deem the desktop "legacy" only after having developed something better.  Nobody here is stupid (perhaps I'm being kind) - it's obvious to anyone with a pulse when things truly ARE better.  Only those with blinders on or who are naïve (or gullible?) would think that Metro/Modern holds some kind of unseen magical promise that Win32 didn't have.  Not every bandwagon has a good driver; some just have shiny paint and a good sound system.

    All Microsoft would have had to do to make virtually everyone happy with Windows 8 is LEAVE THE GOOD PARTS OF WINDOWS 7 IN PLACE.  But noooo, because Metro was so ridiculously underpowered Microsoft figured they had to do something to hobble the "legacy" stuff so as to make it not seem so good by comparison.  THAT was the ridiculous, self-defeating mistake!  Who approves those kinds of decisions?

    Sure, there are a handful of new features (hey, tens of thousands of engineers ought to be able to make SOMETHING good in a few years, even if by accident).  But I measure an operating system's "goodness" by how much work it is to reconfigure/tweak/augment it to make it worth using by someone who actually NEEDS a good, serious computer operating system.  And I'm here to report that it's at an unprecedented high with Windows 8. 

    Will that level of work go up even further with Windows 8.1?  I wouldn't bet against it!  I'll let you know for sure after I've had Windows 8.1 for a little while.

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options



    • Edited by Noel Carboni Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:58 PM grammar error
    Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:50 PM

  • Some of the things Windows 8 brings to desktop

    Better memory usage (Page Combining)
    Vastly improved task manager
    Better virtualization feature (Hyper-V vs. Virtual PC)
    Faster boot-up time
    Desktop wallpaper slideshow (with the chrome color automatically changing the suit the current background image)
    Wallpaper spanning multiple monitors, or showing different wallpaper on each monitor
    Taskbar spanning across monitors, with the ability to show taskbar icons for an app on a given monitor only on that monitor's taskbar
    The incredibly useful Win+X (or right-click on Start) menu.
    Better support for new AMD CPUs (makes more efficient use of "bulldozer"-style "modules")
    Improvements to BitLocker drive encryption
    Windows To Go installation to flashdrives
    Ability to mount ISO images is now built in
    Antivirus is now built in (same thing as Security Essentials, but now part of Defender)
    USB3 support out of the box

    So, do you still stand by your argument?




    Let me first say in summary that some of your comments do not stand too close of an examination, but I would like to address the "supposed" improvements

    The touted improvements in Win8 are really insubstantial.  For virtually of all these, there were excellent tools in Win7, some provided by Microsoft, that were free to users.  However, I had to laugh at others: Desktop wallpaper slideshow?  Seriously?  

    The "subtractions" from the desktop in Win8, however, were far more noticeable, including the removal of Aero effects.  Although it is not immediately obvious, the window shadows and other 3-D effects are extremely important for usability in large monitors where many of the windows are open.  There is no DVD player anymore, the backup utility and file history have been scaled down and various others too many to mention here.  Furthermore, desktop/laptop users have to endure the Metro/Modern Start Screen, the idiotic Charms, a totally unnecessary lock screen, the elimination of the Start Button and Start Menu, the hobbled Search and so on.  In fact, Microsoft went "out of its way" to make the desktop less usable and less productive in Win8.  In fact, virtually every review of this OS has stated this, so it is hardly only my opinion.  It is a universal finding.

    Now, this Frankenstein monster of an OS (part mobile, part desktop) may have  been of some use to some in tablets (the very limited number of users who bought them) if there were any decent "Metro" apps, but there are not.  In any case, Metro/Modern is not designed to run complex computing tasks.  It is designed for simplified, mobile apps.  Why would users want these apps on their desktops and laptops????  I have not seen anybody so far offer an explanation on this?  Do I need a Metro Facebook app when I can use the browser in the OS?  I think not.  The browser is far more effective and far more extensive in the presentation of the information than any Metro/Modern app would ever beSo, why do we need these silly little apps on the desktop???  Any answers out there??

    Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:06 PM
  • >Sigh.  As I've said before, this conversation is just being held on two VASTLY different levels. "I don't like where this is going""It works fine""No, stupid, we're talking about where this is going""No, moron, it really does work fine"Ad infinitum, with escalating emotions.
     
    You're forgetting one piece of the argument -- while you guys are worrying about the future, the other side is arguing that the talk of the desktop is going away is just pure FUD with no proof whatsoever.
     
    Look, the *only* leverage that matters Microsoft has over anything else is the installed base of applications, they are *not* letting that get away so nonchalantly, no way, no how.
     
    >You really don't get it, do you, mcosmin?  Just the fact that it's called "legacy" means it's on its way out.
     
    That's not a true statement in Microsoft speak, legacy just simply means from an older version, deprecated means it's on its way out.  They have two words for very specific reasons...
     
    >It's not being actively supported.
     
    Also not true.  It's in Windows 8 and 8.1 and it's actively supported, period.
     
    >It's kaput.
     
    Nope, not anytime soon.
     
    >Worse yet, it's actively being made to work worse, to give you a poorer user experience, right in front of your nose!
     
    It works great here. <g>
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:13 PM
  • > You're forgetting one piece of the argument -- while you guys are worrying about the future, the other side is arguing that the talk of the desktop is going away is just pure FUD with no proof whatsoever.

    Both the conclusion and the evidence is not as cut and dried as you guys are making it sound. As I've said...I truly believe that is what Microsoft WANTS, not what it is destined to do.

    I'll throw a couple smaller bones for you guys who feel there is nothing to indicate Microsoft's intentions:

    • There are (for the first time) no new MS developer certs for desktop apps, only Metro style apps.
    • MS planned on VS 2012 express having NO support for desktop applications, only to eventually bow to developer outrage.

    Microsoft will continue the desktop until they feel they have a critical mass of apps/developers on Metro. Then they have the leverage to kill it.

    Of course, if Metro adoption fails (as it appears to be doing), they may be forced to consider other alternatives.

    It is Microsoft's INTENTIONS as much as anything that have made me give up on Windows entirely. Whether or not they succeed at getting enough momentum behind Metro to actually kill the desktop is immaterial to me. It's not the interface that developers are ticked off about (although Metro being complete crap certainly doesn't help), it's the power play attempt at locking down the platform that is the real problem.

    Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:42 PM
  • >Both the conclusion and the evidence is not as cut and dried as you guys are making it sound. As I've said...I truly believe that is what Microsoft WANTS, not what it is destined to do.
     
    All I care about is what they're destined to do...
     
    >I'll throw a couple smaller bones for you guys who feel there is nothing to indicate Microsoft's intentions:
    >There are (for the first time) no new MS developer certs for desktop apps, only Metro style apps.MS planned on VS 2012 express having NO support for desktop applications, only to eventually bow to developer outrage.
     
    Pretty irrelevant since we can still even use VB5 or VB6 if we want to, that's legacy not supported in newer development environments, but it is supported for running in the OS.  As a manager, certs can look nice but they don't really enter into any
    calculations I make...
     
    >Microsoft will continue the desktop until they feel they have a critical mass of apps/developers on Metro. Then they have the leverage to kill it.
     
    That's where I get "not anytime soon" -- it may happen eventually, but so what, it wont for a long time and worrying about it now is very premature.  We've got many years between now and then and Metro wont look anything like it does now by that time.
    Hopefully by that time I wont need anything else but metro, but if I do, I wont be running whatever version of Windows that doesn't have what I need.
     
    >It is Microsoft's INTENTIONS as much as anything that have made me give up on Windows entirely.
     
    That's your choice, but I have work to do....
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:59 PM
  • >Sigh.  As I've said before, this conversation is just being held on two VASTLY different levels. "I don't like where this is going""It works fine""No, stupid, we're talking about where this is going""No, moron, it really does work fine"Ad infinitum, with escalating emotions.
     
    You're forgetting one piece of the argument -- while you guys are worrying about the future, the other side is arguing that the talk of the desktop is going away is just pure FUD with no proof whatsoever.
     
    Look, the *only* leverage that matters Microsoft has over anything else is the installed base of applications, they are *not* letting that get away so nonchalantly, no way, no how.
     
    >You really don't get it, do you, mcosmin?  Just the fact that it's called "legacy" means it's on its way out.
     
    That's not a true statement in Microsoft speak, legacy just simply means from an older version, deprecated means it's on its way out.  They have two words for very specific reasons...
     
    >It's not being actively supported.
     
    Also not true.  It's in Windows 8 and 8.1 and it's actively supported, period.
     
    >It's kaput.
     
    Nope, not anytime soon.
     
    >Worse yet, it's actively being made to work worse, to give you a poorer user experience, right in front of your nose!
     
    It works great here. <g>
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Bob,

    There is more than abundant evidence, many times produced in this board, in which the Microsoft executive have asked the developers to develop for Metro/WinRT and not for the desktop/Win32.  Let's no tread over covered ground.  Microsoft may continue supporting the "desktop" for some time, but if there is no further development in it, then it may well be gone.  And this is what the term "legacy" denotes.  It says that it is the past and that Windows developers should be coding programs for Metro/WinRT and not for anything else.  Microsoft may support legacy applications for some time, but the term "legacy" denotes that Microsoft is really abandoning any further development in these areas.  As you well know, Microsoft has announced it is abandoning further development in lots of platforms and tools that were utilized prior to the arrival of Metro/WinRT.  Thus, Microsoft is quite clear that it is abandoning the desktop.  It may still support it, but its support would become more and more vestigial.

    I point you to the latest Microsoft presentation, specifically on Win8.  Their key term was "tablet".  PCs were only noted in passing.  Mice and keyboards were not mentioned.  These are carefully produced videos and the message is quite clear.  Microsoft is moving to devices and these devices are tablets (mostly).  All the highlighted changes in Win8.1 are in the Metro interface.  There is nothing for the desktop. In fact, Microsoft does not even utter the word "desktop".  Even when discussing booting directly to the desktop, Microsoft was using the term "booting directly to alternate screens".    I think that you are a smart guy.  I think that you can read the tea leaves.

    However, you are right that your conventional applications still work in Win8.x.  The issue here not if they work (we all know that they do), but what the future may bring.  If Microsoft and its developers abandon further development for the desktop and concentrate on tablets and touch-based software, then we all need to move to an environment that would be more actively supported.  Have you seen that heavy iron that Apple showed in Mac Pro?  While Microsoft is highlighting lightweight tablets, Apple is showcasing a hunk of a machine like the Mac Pro for which no equivalent exists in the PC world for sheer power.  Can you imagine a machine like the Mac Pro running an OS such as Win8 with its simplistic tiles??  I think not.  Apple is, at least, advancing the state of the art.  Microsoft is playing with tiles!!!  Draw your own conclusions.

    Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:17 PM
  • >Both the conclusion and the evidence is not as cut and dried as you guys are making it sound. As I've said...I truly believe that is what Microsoft WANTS, not what it is destined to do.
     
    All I care about is what they're destined to do...
     
    >I'll throw a couple smaller bones for you guys who feel there is nothing to indicate Microsoft's intentions:
    >There are (for the first time) no new MS developer certs for desktop apps, only Metro style apps.MS planned on VS 2012 express having NO support for desktop applications, only to eventually bow to developer outrage.
     
    Pretty irrelevant since we can still even use VB5 or VB6 if we want to, that's legacy not supported in newer development environments, but it is supported for running in the OS.  As a manager, certs can look nice but they don't really enter into any
    calculations I make...
     
    >Microsoft will continue the desktop until they feel they have a critical mass of apps/developers on Metro. Then they have the leverage to kill it.
     
    That's where I get "not anytime soon" -- it may happen eventually, but so what, it wont for a long time and worrying about it now is very premature.  We've got many years between now and then and Metro wont look anything like it does now by that time.
    Hopefully by that time I wont need anything else but metro, but if I do, I wont be running whatever version of Windows that doesn't have what I need.
     
    >It is Microsoft's INTENTIONS as much as anything that have made me give up on Windows entirely.
     
    That's your choice, but I have work to do....
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Bob,

    You continue to amaze me.  You are supposedly a serious professional running some heavyweight applications.  Microsoft, the supplier of your OS up to this time tells you that it eventually hopes to move fully to a mobile OS and you are not worried one bit.  I find this astonishing.  I think that you still have absolutely no comprehension, whatsoever, of what is happening.

    We are not moving towards a different OS in which you would be doing the same things you are doing today using "Metro" apps in the future.  In that, you are totally mistaken.  A mobile OS would never be able to do the things that desktop OSes do.  In a mobile OS, everything is designed around the following items:

    (a) touch

    (b) small screens (up to 11'')

    (c) less powerful processors

    (d) limited storage

    (e) battery preservation

    None of these are considerations in the development of desktop applicationsThus, the more mobile Windows becomes, the less usable it would be on the desktop (until it is not usable at all).  Essentially, Microsoft's plan for Windows is to Androidfy it.  Within this mobile OS, you would be able to run some of the "older" computational-intensive software only as a thin client.  This is the clearly stated future for Windows as explained by its officials.  Microsoft believes that the desktop is dying and that it must optimize its OS for tablets primarily.  It wants to utilize its currently installed base to provide a market for its developers.  This is all.  You are just fodder.  As soon as you serve your purpose, you would be discarded.  In fact, in a few years you would not be able to buy Windows to install in the machine of your choice as you cannot buy iOS or Android.  In case you have not gotten it already, this is the end.  It may "flow" to its conclusion for a number of years, but this is it.

    Please, read Ballmer's vision for the company in his open letter and tell me where the word PC and desktop appear in that presentation.  Ballmer's vision (and that of Microsoft executives) is to be selling millions of tablets (thus making as much money as Apple from hardware sales), optimize the OS for these tablets/devices (if you think I am exaggerating, read his statement) and also selling services (Office 365, Azure and others) on a subscription basis.  This is the "devices and services" strategy.  I am stunned that you do not even take seriously the pronouncements of the Microsoft CEO and believe that nothing much has changed!!  It is absolutely astonishing.

    Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:37 PM
  • >There is more than abundant evidence, many times produced in this board, in which the Microsoft executive have asked the developers to develop for Metro/WinRT and not for the desktop/Win32. 

    That's no proof the desktop and desktop apps are going away anytime soon.

    >Microsoft may continue supporting the "desktop" for some time, but if there is no further development in it, then it may well be gone.

    That's just what you think now, though that "some time" is probably going to be at least a decade.

    > It says that it is the past and that Windows developers should be coding programs for Metro/WinRT and not for anything else. 

    It says what they want for the future, it doesn't say anything about what will be running in the future.  Don't you remember the big push for .NET, everything and anything was going to be based on it and it never materialized.  This is the same situation -- the PR folks have to have something to push -- the OS folks have to support it and everyone else.

    >Microsoft may support legacy applications for some time, but the term "legacy" denotes that Microsoft is really abandoning any further development in these areas

    That is not a true statement.

    >However, you are right that your conventional applications still work in Win8.x.  The issue here not if they work (we all know that they do), but what the future may bring. 

    The future is that they will continue to work for a long time, there is *no* indication otherwise.

    > Have you seen that heavy iron that Apple showed in Mac Pro?

    Yes I have, nice piece of hardware and if I had money to burn, I'd buy one and run Windows on it.  You can get more powerful PC hardware, but not as "cute".

    >While Microsoft is highlighting lightweight tablets, Apple is showcasing a hunk of a machine like the Mac Pro for which no equivalent exists in the PC world for sheer power

    Perhaps you should read all about the next version of OSX and it's narrowing the gap between it and iOS. (sounds familiar, huh.) And iOS's flat interface in iOS 7...

    > Can you imagine a machine like the Mac Pro running an OS such as Win8 with its simplistic tiles??  I think not. 

    Sure, why not, The PC I'm typing this on right now is not all that far from the new Mac Pro, and it runs Windows 8, and as I said above, if I bought one I'd run Windows on it.

    >Apple is, at least, advancing the state of the art.  Microsoft is playing with tiles!!!  Draw your own conclusions.

    You need to read more about what Apple is doing, that's for sure.


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Friday, June 14, 2013 12:33 AM
  • >You are supposedly a serious professional running some heavyweight applications.  Microsoft, the supplier of your OS

    Yep, that's me, I'm an IT Manager, and Windows is just one of the OS's I use btw.  I also run i5OS, and a couple Linux servers and one Mac.

    >Microsoft, the supplier of your OS up to this time tells you that it eventually hopes to move fully to a mobile OS and you are not worried one bit.

    Nope, not worried a bit, I know my current stuff will continue to run for a LONG time, and I actually see a lot of potential in the mobile space as well.

    >Within this mobile OS, you would be able to run some of the "older" computational-intensive software only as a thin client. 

    Nope, no indication of that happening anytime soon.

    >As soon as you serve your purpose, you would be discarded. 

    That's life!

    In fact, in a few years you would not be able to buy Windows to install in the machine of your choice as you cannot buy iOS or Android. 

    There is no indication of that happening anytime soon, how many times do I have to say that?

    >Please, read Ballmer's vision for the company

    Ballmer is a PR guy...

    >optimize the OS for these tablets/devices (if you think I am exaggerating, read his statement) and also selling services (Office 365, Azure and others) on a subscription basis.

    None of that is scary and none of it means desktop apps are going away, you're projecting WAY to much from little data.

    > I am stunned that you do not even take seriously the pronouncements of the Microsoft CEO and believe that nothing much has changed!!  It is absolutely astonishing.

    Ballmer never said the desktop was going away, that's your own conclusion, not his.


    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine

    Friday, June 14, 2013 12:42 AM

  • >It is Microsoft's INTENTIONS as much as anything that have made me give up on Windows entirely.
     
    That's your choice, but I have work to do....

    Yes, it is my choice, and I choose not to give one more dollar to Microsoft.

    I can still get my work done...in fact a number of things have proven much easier since ditching Windows.

    Funny, isn't it?

    Friday, June 14, 2013 3:57 AM
  • MS planned on VS 2012 express having NO support for desktop applications, only to eventually bow to developer outrage.

    You are mixing things up: Visual studio 2012 EXPRESS was not supposed to support desktop apps, only metro apps.

    full blown Visual studio 2012 professional and ultimate supported desktop from day one.

    And while we talk about developers, guess what, .NET Framework received a nice update for better performance and new features along side with windows 8, also new versions for C# and VB. Your argument fails, just give up.

    Microsoft asked developers to drop win32 the moment they introduced the .net framework. Win32 is an aging, difficult, cluttered, slow productivity API. Win32 shouldn't basically be used anymore...

    Microsoft asked developers to start building apps for metro because they want a hand in the ARM battle. Since metro is the only thing metro can run, it suits them just fine.

    • Edited by mcosmin Friday, June 14, 2013 7:14 AM
    Friday, June 14, 2013 7:09 AM
  • >Funny, isn't it?
     
    Not at all I believe you, but I do have to wonder why you're here talking about it.
     
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Friday, June 14, 2013 11:25 AM
  • Anyone following the "Xbone" fiasco? Microsoft just p**sed off another huge customer segment, just like they did with Windows 8, Office 2013, Visual Studio 2012 and Server 2012. All these products generated tons of controversy.

    Many of the current console gamers migrated from PCs because they were fed up with the increasing DRMization of the platform: Key codes, account bindings, GFWL etc.

    Microsoft bringing the same, or even MORE restrictions to consoles would cause an outrage. That was a no-brainer - especially since sharing games is far more widespread and accepted on consoles since the dawn of time, and an online-requirement to operate the devices is completely foreign. Coupled together with the mandatory Kinect camera and its Orwellian abilities, the rumors about patent 20120278904, Orth's "deal with it" comment... Everywhere in the gaming communities was a noticeable pent up anger, even weeks before the official Xbox reveal.

    The might seem off topic, but actually it's not, bear with me: Microsoft probably invented the controversy-causing DRM system on its own, without prior pressure from publishers. Peter Moore from EA just said that. Of course he could lie, but then:

    1. He says the truth: That would explain why Sony and Nintendo are without these ridiculous DRM schemes.

    2. EA and other publishers were the instigators behind all this, but if true, how come Sony was able to resist it? I don't believe that EA will ignore the PS4. How stupid was Microsoft not to envision the backlash, especially after all these forewarnings? The obvious conclusion is that Sony said no, while Microsoft sold out their users without hesitation.

    In any case, EA and Sony are apparently able to notice when the sh*t hits the fan and are able to react to customer wishes, while "NuMicrosoft" proves yet again, that it would rather bulldozer another once loyal customer base and create yet another backlash.

    Microsoft is primarily caught in a struggle against the Apple bogey-man, and its method of war is a botched up cargo-cult strategy ("Apple is closed - we need to be more closed!" - "The more liberties the customers lose that way, the better. Serves them right."). That's the main reason why all newish strategies and products have an anti-customer stance and lack of options in them, and the resulting backlashes and controversies.

    The success of the iPhone and especially the iPad cracked Ballmer and his top brass cohorts on a deep level. I fully believe that they put all this stuff because they really do hate the customers, at least on a subconscious level, after the Apple-hype. They do really want to harm and ridicule them.

    The Xbone is a good evidence, but there are tons of others: Like the mail app on Windows 8, that doesn't support POP3 but instead of just not offering it, it does offer the option only to insult the paying customers when they do click on it. Or the faux start button in 8.1, that leads back the metro menu, the true reason for all this outrage.

    They are overjoyed to insult and ridicule their users.

    Thanks to the iPad, Ballmer and crew went clinically insane.

    Friday, June 14, 2013 11:42 AM
  • MS planned on VS 2012 express having NO support for desktop applications, only to eventually bow to developer outrage.

    You are mixing things up: Visual studio 2012 EXPRESS was not supposed to support desktop apps, only metro apps.

    full blown Visual studio 2012 professional and ultimate supported desktop from day one.

    And while we talk about developers, guess what, .NET Framework received a nice update for better performance and new features along side with windows 8, also new versions for C# and VB. Your argument fails, just give up.

    Microsoft asked developers to drop win32 the moment they introduced the .net framework. Win32 is an aging, difficult, cluttered, slow productivity API. Win32 shouldn't basically be used anymore...

    Microsoft asked developers to start building apps for metro because they want a hand in the ARM battle. Since metro is the only thing metro can run, it suits them just fine.

    Mixing things up? Are you blind? Look at the text you quoted again and try to engage your brain. I clearly said 'express'. Do you really think the bulk of hobby and small commercial developers writing those millions of Windows applications that have kept Windows on top use professional or ultimate versions of VS which cost thousands of dollars? No, they use express. Thus the vocal outcry at Microsoft when they tried to hamstring desktop development and force Metro.

    The rest of your post is nonsense. How could my argument have failed, considering you have yet to make a coherent one?

    Let me sum up your remaining points:

    • .Net framework was updated in Windows 8
    • Microsoft wanted developers to switch from win32 to .Net over 10 years ago.
    • Metro only runs Metro and Microsoft is OK with that. Microsoft wants to leverage Metro in the battle for ARM market share.

    Are you even trying to make a point here?

    Let me take a crack at deciphering your meaning: The first point seems to indicate that you feel Microsoft hasn't abandoned desktop development because they updated the .Net framework. Just a note: The framework's development is largely outside and independent of Windows itself and can be used in the development of Metro apps as well, so that holds no water. The second point is just unrelated random information. The third point seems to concede that Microsoft wants to focus on Metro development and counters your own original argument.

    Never mind, you're obviously just spewing random information. For, or against, what is impossible to tell. I doubt you even know.

    Friday, June 14, 2013 2:36 PM
  • Anyone following the "Xbone" fiasco?

    Yes. I find it interesting (and very telling) how Microsoft handled the DRM for used games. Essentially they are now saying they will leave it up to the publishers...after having created all the infrastructure to make it happen. This is reminiscent of how they handled Secure Boot on Windows 8. They require the use of Secure Boot on all machines that will sell with Windows 8 while claiming they aren't forcing OEM's to lock out other operating systems. They know full well that most OEMs will take the path of least resistance (cheapest) and just include the Microsoft key and may or may not provide mechanisms for changing it.

    That way Microsoft can say "Hey, it's not us! Look over there!" while still manipulating everything and everybody to get what they want.

    Friday, June 14, 2013 3:09 PM
  • Anyone following the "Xbone" fiasco?

    Yes. I find it interesting (and very telling) how Microsoft handled the DRM for used games. Essentially they are now saying they will leave it up to the publishers...after having created all the infrastructure to make it happen. This is reminiscent of how they handled Secure Boot on Windows 8. They require the use of Secure Boot on all machines that will sell with Windows 8 while claiming they aren't forcing OEM's to lock out other operating systems. They know full well that most OEMs will take the path of least resistance (cheapest) and just include the Microsoft key and may or may not provide mechanisms for changing it.

    That way Microsoft can say "Hey, it's not us! Look over there!" while still manipulating everything and everybody to get what they want.

    There is an excellent article about Microsoft's monomania with the Start Screen.  You may want to give it a read

    http://www.zdnet.com/why-is-microsoft-obsessed-with-live-tiles-and-why-doesnt-apple-care-7000016838/

    Friday, June 14, 2013 8:18 PM
  • Yep, now where did I put that Fedora DVD?
    Monday, June 17, 2013 6:50 AM
  • Still waiting for Windows Borg
    Monday, June 17, 2013 6:53 AM
  • Still waiting for Windows Borg
    I thought that was Win8!!!
    Monday, June 17, 2013 10:39 PM
  • My company has me testing the RT for corporate wide management use. With the NON support for third party programs like putty, ponderosa term, #inssidr, and a good telnet client. Why should we use this handicapped device.

    Not able to use a USB to Serial adaptor for routers, and switches, is show stopper for us.

    Not able to now with 8.1 use previously working in 8.0 USB to Ethernet adaptor is a show stopper.

    We can live with the Metro.

    Microsoft will loose our entire force of 40 Surface RT's because of this.

    Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:00 PM
  • Microsoft partners seriously underwhelmed by Windows 8.1

    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2013/06/28/channel_not_excited_by_windows_81/


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:45 PM
    Answerer
  • Microsoft partners seriously underwhelmed by Windows 8.1

    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2013/06/28/channel_not_excited_by_windows_81/


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    This comment is even positive, considering the moves.  As I noted earlier, Intel, HP, Samsung and others are getting prepared for the post Windows world prepping Android for desktop/laptop computing.  This may sound counter-intuitive, but it seems to be happening.  Dell, the only strong MS adherent, may have to change its tune since now its profits have been seriously slashed.  
    Sunday, June 30, 2013 9:44 PM
  • Downloaded and installed on my second hard drive.

    A HUGH disappointment and epic fail!

    Monday, July 1, 2013 2:23 PM
  • Dude WHY can't you just move with the modern world. The new OS is innovative, it puts your apps on your computer, tell me which other kind of os gives you a COMPUTER AND TABLET ALL IN ONE???
    Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:01 PM
  • Dude, GOOD design and function trump fashion.  Every time.

    That said, last month I moved my organization up to Windows 8.1 (all fresh, clean installs), because after an extremely thorough evaluation we found that it can finally be tweaked (with unprecedented effort and 3rd party software) to be just as functional as Windows 7.  And of course it's current - though to be very honest I don't think partnering with Microsoft means all of what it used to.  They're certainly going in directions I don't care about as an engineer and businessman.

    Now, based on experience, I can authoritatively say that Windows 8.1 is not MORE functional than Windows 7 (noting that we have already solved our virtualization needs with VMware and don't need Hyper-V).  Windows 8.1 is just roughly equivalent, with some key deletions that have to be worked around (for example, Windows Backup is no longer well-integrated).  And of course the Metro/Modern BS that's no more than a nuisance distraction.  Thankfully, it can be completely avoided and forgotten.

    We haven't worked through every last question or quirk yet, but all in all we're getting decent service so far out of Windows 8.1 for engineering tasks.  It does seem to be stable at least.

      

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:11 AM
  • Max, it just takes a supercomputer to access this via IE 11.  I wonder how long it would take with a Surface RT...

     

    -Noel


    Detailed how-to in my eBooks:  

    Configure The Windows 7 "To Work" Options
    Configure The Windows 8 "To Work" Options

    Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:18 AM